Re: Questions from a newbie In defence of the EMS lute
OK all, I'm going to make a defense of another lute. I considered the EMS lute kit, which I think at the time would have cost me about $800 (more now with the exchange rates), and asked some advice. The EMS kit was well recommended, but involved a lot of work. I chose to buy the Musikits flat back, which some purists on the list have said isn't a lute. The kit cost me $350, and the finished instrument is about $800. What are the criteria of the choice. My flat back has been played by three professionals (one being Ronn McFarlane, and I had to point out to him that the frets were fixed wooden frets instead of gut - as he just played without looking). All three had the same reaction, a bit bright, but playable as a lute. I've been playing that instrument for a year now, and as many of you know from my questions I'm in the process of building a true lute from scratch. But I never would have done that, or learned what I've learned about the music and the instrument, had I had to pay a lot of money to get started. The earlier versions (one and two, I have two) of the Musicmakers (Musikits.com) flat back were too long(25, 63.5cm) for a G tuning, except with nylon. The version being sold now is a bit shorter (not sure how much, but when you see in the catalog that it is now a fit length for G that is from my suggestion, I do wish Jerry would buy me a beer for pointing out the failings of his design). From the box it might be a bit high in the action, I haven't convinced him on that yet. But you can get a playable lute for $800, or if you have minimal skills with hand tools and a bit of time, for $350. It is not a concert instrument, but you can learn the fingering and play a rather nice sound on it. In fact if I didn't like the challenge of making a full bellied lute, and the idea of having a classic renaissance lute, I'd just stay with the Musicmaker's flat back. Full disclosure, Jerry Brown pays me nothing for this endorsement - and I'm still waiting for that beer for teaching him things I learned about the lute from this list and my own experimentation. But one can learn if one likes guitar with a decent classical instrument of about $200 (or an electric for a similar price). One can get a used flute for about $150, and a new penny whistle for $6. Even violins cost less than lutes at a beginner's level. And no beginner should be asked to commit to a fully priced instrument, no matter the instrument, in order to find out if this is the one he/she wants to play. I think that flat back has a place there, when I make my true lute I'll sell the flat back to someone interested in the instrument for the price they can afford (and if it is $5, so be it - I've gotten my worth from it in learning to love the instrument - but I do hope they will be willing to pay a bit more g). I'd rather sell it to someone who would learn from it for $100 than to someone who would hang it on the wall for $1000 - which wouldn't happen anyway, but the point is made). Best, Jon PS, I thought about buying a Paki lute on eBay and using just the belly. It is generally agreed among luthiers with whom I've spoken that the body of the lute contributes a lot less to the sound than the soundboard and the rest of the instrument. But I chose to bite the bullet and make the belly on my own. (And the ability to tear apart a Paki lute to use the parts would depend on the glue they use - a good hide glue will come apart with a reasonable level of heating, whereas a modern glue might need enough heat to really do some tearing). If you have the money to spend on a more expensive lute, go ahead. As I said, I wasn't in a position to do that, and I do think people can be over quick to criticise cheaper instruments. There are lutes made by different workshops also available from the Early Music Shop. You can visit their lute catalogue on line at http://www.e-m-s.com/cat/stringinstruments/lutes/lute.htm And therein lies the point. Do you want to start with a mediocre or good lute before you know if you can play. Or do you want to find out whether you like playing the music first. I see that the lutes from Mitre on the site you link are in a range, my mental calculations aren't perfect but they seem to have student lutes at about $900. But I'd like to see one first. A general observation from an ancient warrior. Use cheap stuff to practice skills, then discard them for the better equipment. If you make a compromise in the middle you will never feel you can dispose of it, and you won't have the money for the best as you will already have spent much of it. jwm To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Questions from a newbie
I've heard that the cheap S. Asian (Pakistani?) lutes on ebay are trash. More trouble to make them into a lute than they're worth. I got one of those lutes. It cost me many hours of work (maybe 50-90), many trips to the hardware store, and 4-5 questions posted here to this list (for which I received generous answers). I got it into a playable condition, but I feel lucky. They are not playable as they arrive (action _way_ high, frets won't lay down against fingerboard, ...). To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Questions from a newbie
I bought two and sold the one that I did not like as well. THe more I hear about others' experiences with these lutes the luckier I feel to have received one of the better ones. The main problem with the Pakistani lutes is quality control. Sometimes they arrive in playable condition and sometimes not. Sure, the rose is not very elegant and the case is not exactly form fitted, but these are not problems related to the playability of the instruments. The problems I had with the lute I sold were not so much about the action, which was fine, but rather the string spacings at the nut on one of them were so bad that the courses were too close together and grouped incorrectly. Obviously, whoever made this lute had never tried to play one. I modified the nut so that the instrument was at least playable and sold it. If I had not bought two of them I would have thought that none of them was playable. I still have the other one as a backup, just so I can practice on something should my decent Tumiati lute (God forbid!) should ever need to go into the luthier shop for some reason. If I had more time to spend on the Pakistani lute that I kept, I would replace all the nylon frets with gut. I have already replaced some of the strings with Nygut. So many music projects and so little time... Cheers, Marion -Original Message- From: Herbert Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 28, 2005 7:01 AM To: Tim Beasley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Questions from a newbie I've heard that the cheap S. Asian (Pakistani?) lutes on ebay are trash. More trouble to make them into a lute than they're worth. I got one of those lutes. It cost me many hours of work (maybe 50-90), many trips to the hardware store, and 4-5 questions posted here to this list (for which I received generous answers). I got it into a playable condition, but I feel lucky. They are not playable as they arrive (action _way_ high, frets won't lay down against fingerboard, ...). To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Questions from a newbie In defence of the EMS lute
Dear Tim I purchased a renaissance lute, already built, from the Early Music Shop last November. As far as I know, it was built in the UK. I ordered it in June 2004 and it was not ready until November. It was relatively cheap as lutes go, but it is perfectly alright for me as a beginner. In fact, I think it is good value for money, and everyone who has seen it thinks it is a beautiful instrument. It came in a hard case, not fancy, but it does the job, and the lute had travelled in it safely to Australia. Also, as I have so little time because I concentrate on classical guitar, it would have been wasteful for me to spend more money on a lute. In any case, I just didn't have a lot to spend. There are other priorities such as the mortgage, household bills, food, schooling for my daughter etc. I am absolutely unable to spend a lot on musical instruments, however much I might want to. If you have the money to spend on a more expensive lute, go ahead. As I said, I wasn't in a position to do that, and I do think people can be over quick to criticise cheaper instruments. There are lutes made by different workshops also available from the Early Music Shop. You can visit their lute catalogue on line at http://www.e-m-s.com/cat/stringinstruments/lutes/lute.htm Regards Caroline Caroline Chamberlain BSc (Hons) Scientific Officer Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology School of Molecular and Microbial Sciences University of Queensland Brisbane QLD 4072 Tel: + 61 7 3365 4606 Fax: + 61 7 3365 4699 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Questions from a newbie
Hi Tim, I have no experience with EMS lutes. I would recommend either to buy a used lute or a new student lute which several builders offer. In any case you should try to find a lute player to come along for good advice about the instrument. The late Walter Gerwig played all the music on his 10-course renaissance lute. It surely is possible but early music is about to play the music of the time on the instrument of that time, isn't it? What makes a good beginner lute? The most common renaissance lute would be tuned in renaissance tuning (top: g-d-a-f-c-g :deepest - and then the basses diatonically) and would have 7 or 8 courses. 10 course instruments are popular because you can play the complete music from the early beginnings of printed lute music up to the latest (italian) music. What we usually call abaroque lute is the lute tuned based on a d-minor chord ahich was used nearly all over europe (except italy) in the baroque. It's a very different instrument starting with 11 courses up to 13 courses and occassionally even 14 courses because some of Bach's so called lute works require a 14th course (contra G). I hope this helps Thomas Am Freitag, 25. März 2005 18:22 schrieb Tim Beasley: Hi. I thought I posted this earlier, but I never got a copy (and I assume that the listserve would have forwarded me a copy.) I'm an amateur classical guitarist and I'm getting tired of playing lute music in transcription. I'm going to be selling one of my guitars in the next week or two, and one possible use of the money is a lute. When I started with CG, I got a student instrument that served me well; I finally decided I liked CG and it liked me, so I upgraded to a real instrument. If the relationship hand't worked out, yippee, no great financial loss. I think I'd like to do the same with lute. I've heard that the cheap S. Asian (Pakistani?) lutes on ebay are trash. More trouble to make them into a lute than they're worth. But I haven't heard anything at all about the EMS lutes (Early Music Shop, England). They're within my price range. But are they playable lutes, with a reasonable--for a student lute--sound? Has anybody assembled one of their kits? (If I'm overlooking an obvious source of student lutes, let me know.) A second question deals with the difference between Renaissance/Baroque lutes. Apparently the most common varieties of the two differ by a single string (7 versus 8 strings). I have to assume that there's more of a difference between the two, however, than that one string. Is it fairly standard to play Baroque music on a Renaissance lute, or is the sound difference really significant? If there's a handy website discussion the differences, just point me to it. Thanks for any advice and suggestions. Tim Beasley Houston To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Questions from a newbie
Tim Beasley wrote: A second question deals with the difference between Renaissance/Baroque lutes. Apparently the most common varieties of the two differ by a single string (7 versus 8 strings). I have to assume that there's more of a difference between the two, however, than that one string. Is it fairly standard to play Baroque music on a Renaissance lute, or is the sound difference really significant? What may not be obvious to a newbie from Thomas' response is that if you're reading from tablature (and you will be, since you're tired of transcriptions) you can't play music written for baroque d-minor tuning on a lute in renaissance tuning. You'd have to restring the instrument, and then deal with the problem of what to do about the extra bass courses that an eight-course renaissance lute doesn't have. So playing French and German music from mid-1600's and later on a renaissance lute is impractical. There are extended-neck instruments that can be strung either as archlutes (in renaissance tuning with added bass strings) or as d-minor instruments. If you're an amateur without virtuoso chops and don't have your heart set on playing Weiss, I recommend a renaissance lute of no more than eight courses. You can get a better idea of what we're talking about by going to a lutemaker's sight and looking at pictures. Try David van Edwards' site, which has lots of pictures that seem to load quickly and easily: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/index.htm#lute If you don't get two copies of this message, you're not subscribed to the list. Howard Posner To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Questions from a newbie
Dear Howard, Thank you for your clarification. Please see my additions below. Best regards, Marion -Original Message- From: Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 25, 2005 10:42 AM To: Tim Beasley [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lute net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Questions from a newbie Tim Beasley wrote: A second question deals with the difference between Renaissance/Baroque lutes. Apparently the most common varieties of the two differ by a single string (7 versus 8 strings). I have to assume that there's more of a difference between the two, however, than that one string. Is it fairly standard to play Baroque music on a Renaissance lute, or is the sound difference really significant? What may not be obvious to a newbie from Thomas' response is that if you're reading from tablature (and you will be, since you're tired of transcriptions) you can't play music written for baroque d-minor tuning on a lute in renaissance tuning. You'd have to restring the instrument, and then deal with the problem of what to do about the extra bass courses that an eight-course renaissance lute doesn't have. So playing French and German music from mid-1600's and later on a renaissance lute is impractical. ++Rather than retrofit an exisiting instrument, it is better to get a different instrument that was designed and bulit with the correct strings. Many people who play lute music have a variety of instruments. For example, you could have one renaissance lute (between 6 and 10 courses) an archlute or therobo (14 courses) and a baroque lute (Dm tuning) with 11 to 14 courses, usually 13. As for playing baroque music on a renaissance lute, it can be done but requires a different version to be developed. You cannot read anything directly from tab unless the tuning of your instrument matches that intended for the tab. There are extended-neck instruments that can be strung either as archlutes (in renaissance tuning with added bass strings) or as d-minor instruments. If you're an amateur without virtuoso chops and don't have your heart set on playing Weiss, I recommend a renaissance lute of no more than eight courses. ++You could start out this way, but sooner or later you will get addicted to Weiss. You can get a better idea of what we're talking about by going to a lutemaker's sight and looking at pictures. Try David van Edwards' site, which has lots of pictures that seem to load quickly and easily: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/index.htm#lute If you don't get two copies of this message, you're not subscribed to the list. Howard Posner To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Questions from a newbie
Tim wrote: But I haven't heard anything at all about the EMS lutes (Early Music Shop, England). They're within my price range. But are they playable lutes, with a reasonable--for a student lute--sound? Has anybody assembled one of their kits? (If I'm overlooking an obvious source of student lutes, let me know.) I haven't seen one of the EMS lutes up close, but with the number of them showing up on eBay I'm a little suspicious. They look very much like the Pakistani lutes, but it's hard to tell from the little pictures. Personally I think you'd be better off going with a lute from a reputable builder though you'll pay a bit more for it. I think you'll be happier in the long run. I keep a list of luthiers on my web site; http://medievalist.org/lute/lute.html Dan Larson makes a 6 and 7 course student lute. Larry Brown also makes (or used to make) student lutes. Both are very good. I own one of Dan's 6 course lutes (and one of his early vihuelas) and an 8 course form Larry. Both are excellent instruments. Good luck. Keep an eye on ebay for other lutes. Occasionally a good one shows up. You might also want to check out Wayne Cripps' lute classifieds page; http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute/forsale.html Regards, Craig To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Questions from a newbie
Roman Turovsky wrote: I'm an amateur classical guitarist and I'm getting tired of playing lute music in transcription. I'm going to be selling one of my guitars in the next week or two, and one possible use of the money is a lute. When I started with CG, I got a student instrument that served me well; I finally decided I liked CG and it liked me, so I upgraded to a real instrument. If the relationship hand't worked out, yippee, no great financial loss. I think I'd like to do the same with lute. Not a good idea. Indeed. I would suggest checking out lutes by Luciano Faria (www.lucianofaria.com) as they are very well built and they are relatively cheap. I've heard that the cheap S. Asian (Pakistani?) lutes on ebay are trash. More trouble to make them into a lute than they're worth. In fact. Having owned a Paki harp, I can attest to the junk label being quite true. A second question deals with the difference between Renaissance/Baroque lutes. Apparently the most common varieties of the two differ by a single string (7 versus 8 strings). I have to assume that there's more of a difference between the two, however, than that one string. Is it fairly standard to play Baroque music on a Renaissance lute, or is the sound difference really significant? If there's a handy website discussion the differences, just point me to it. Thanks for any advice and suggestions. Tim Beasley I have a few useful paragraphs on the subject here http://polyhymnion.org/swv/theaxe.html Having also switched from CG to lute recently, viz., an 11-course baroque lute, I was at first overwhelmed by the demands on the right hand. I then borrowed a 10-course renaissance instrument and played it excelusively for a few weeks, went back to the 11-course instrument and found it much more enjoyable (until I snapped off my chanterelle peg holder the other day rendering it temporarily unusable! :-) Moral of the story: you should seriously consider both a baroque and a renaissance instrument right off the bat. Now to keep fluent on both, I switch between renaissance and baroque instruments every 3 or 4 days or so. Works like a charm. Greg-- -- Greg Silverman EnHS Health Studies University of MN email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] phone: 612-625-6870 fax: 612-624-3370 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Questions from a newbie
-Original Message- From: Tim Beasley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Mar 25, 2005 1:01 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Questions from a newbie Thank you, everybody. I have a fair amount to think about and digest. I think I'll avoid the EMS student lutes; one person here voiced a very strong objection to them, even though the EMS ebay feedback is glowing. The people buying them are, no doubt, like me: having heard few good instruments in person and having played none, their opinions aren't reliable. Martin S. seemed dead set against the idea; granted, and although the Early Music Shop is a competitor of sorts I'll take his word on the matter. If worse comes to worse I'll try to build one; it can't be harder than building a guitar. ++It is a matter of how you want to spend your time. You probably can buy a decent lute that is already made without having to order one or make one yourself. If you like to build instruments you can certainly spend your time that way but you won't be playing music while you are in the shop building your instrument. You should know that lutes take lots of time to build and certain kinds of mistakes in building them can be less forgiving than the same mistake on a guitar. A guitar has a large hole into which you can fit tools for fixing cracks, brace detachments, and other problems. Once you seal your lute you can't get inside so easily without damaging something. To cite another example, if the action is too high on your guitar generally you can sand the saddle. It it is too high on a domra or a four-course mandolin, you can sand the bridge, which is not attached to the instrument except by string tension. Lutes have fixed bridges with no saddles. This means that you have to get the action right the first time. If your action is too high you will need a different bridge or you will need to fill in the holes and redrill them closer to the soundboard. Action corrections on lutes can require precision work that is best left to luthiers. I'll be on the lookout for a used lute in a few weeks. (And will revisit all the suggested sites again.) ++Probabl you will find a lute in the US but if you can't find one in the here, check Federico Marincola's web page and click on strumenti in vendita I love Weiss already through transcriptions for guitar, and all but chortled when I found a website with scans of his works in tablature, there for the downloading. I'll have to think about exactly what I want most to play on lute. The difference in tuning doesn't bother me; I got used to the Russian 7-string tuning (DGBdgbd'), although reading in the higher positions is a bit dicey. ++I recently started playing instruments in the Dm tuning and I can tell you that it is wonderful tuning. A bit difficult at first but once you play with it for a while the advantages become evident. I play 6-string CG as well as 11-string guitar. If you like 6 strings, you will love the additional courses that you find on lutes. They facilitate a wider variety of music that you can play on the actual instruments for which the music was written as opposed to a transcription to fit a different instrument. Good luck to to you, Tim, and keep us informed of your progress. If I have more questions I'll be sure to ask them. Tx. Tim B. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
