Re: Stradivari lute?
At 03:41 AM 5/24/2005, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >Copies of this book can be ordered at >http://www.hd01.com/cremonaviolins/english/ContactNav.asp for 12 , plus >delivery fees. >I have called them and the book is available Thank you, Marcello. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Stradivari lute?
Copies of this book can be ordered at http://www.hd01.com/cremonaviolins/english/ContactNav.asp for 12 , plus delivery fees. I have called them and the book is available ciao, Marcello > Marvelous. Do you have the publisher of this text on hand? Do you know > if it's still available? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Stradivari lute?
At 04:42 PM 5/23/2005, Alexander Batov wrote: >My information on the third (in our thread) Strad guitar is entirely based >on this book: Gianpaolo Gregori, La Chitarra "Giustiniani" Antonio >Stradivari 1681, Cremona 1998. It is a fairly thorough study with lots of >photographs and x-rays and the guitar appears to be of similar size to the >Ashmolean Strad; in author's opinion made on the same mould (body >measurements are really close). I would find it hard to question his >attribution of this guitar to anybody else but Stradivari. Moreover he >mentions the following: "Over the last eighteen years I have studied the >Stradivari guitars still in existence, and I have been able to ascertain the >existence of six instruments that are without doubt Stradivari's, in >addition to the fragment of a seventh, ...etc" Marvelous. Do you have the publisher of this text on hand? Do you know if it's still available? Interesting that Gregori is so certain that the other three are authentic. Interesting that so few have joined him in this position or acknowledged that this may be so. I suppose if one is a curator/conservator charged with a Stradivari guitar, it's much more exciting to inform the world of the status quo, that yours is "one of two" rather than "one of six." While I don't have basis to doubt Sig. Gregori's attribution, it would be nice to have another set of eyes or few assess the instruments and weigh in with opinion. >There is also reference to his article (which I haven't got): "La harpe et >les guitares d'Antonio Stradivarius" in 'Musique Image Instruments. Nouveaux >timbres, nouvelles sensibilites au XVIII siecle (I-re partie), revue >francaise d'organologie et d'iconographie musicale', No 3, 1997 Is this the >one you had in mind? It is. >I do apologise if you know of this all already. No apology is ever required for so informed a post. Your opening paragraph is familiar now that you mention it, but only in part and it had retreated to somewhere in the back shelves of my cognition. ...And I have only read that Gregori's text exists (or, I think, was pending at the time); I haven't seen the book in person, but am very keen to. Thank you, Alexander. Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Stradivari lute? now: symm/asymm & perfect/imperfect
y symmetrical. For many reasons age, stress etc. >poor workmanship. For this reason alone, coming across Stadivari's template, >and seeing first hand that lutes were conceived from the beginning to be >perfectly symmetrical cleared up at least for me some of the mystery. > I know many makers will copy a lute with every distortion, and >imperfection, it seems for me that this might not be the way to do it. > I wonder if these early makers had some mind set to stop just short of >perfection? >Michael Thames >www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com >- Original Message - >From: "Garry Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "lute list" >Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 5:54 AM >Subject: RE: Stradivari lute? > > > -Original Message- >From: Michael Thames [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 10:55 AM >To: Lute net >Subject: Stradivari lute? > > > I noticed a lute template of the belly ( 11 course French lute) made > from > thick paper, folded down the middle to from the centre line, indicating > to > me, that lutes were originally conceived to be symmetrically prefect, > and do > in fact have a clear centre line, contrary to what Lundberg says. > [GB>] > >Lundberg did not say that lute bellies weren't symmetrical, just that the > lute > as a whole doesn't have a clear center line. > >If you'll look at page 76 ( Practicum One: Making the Form ) in > "Historical Lute > Construction", you'll notice that Lundberg's instructions coincide with > what you > describe above. > >I'm sure that Martin Shepherd (first name out of the brain this morning.) > or > someone else can probably give a concise description of the "asymmetry" of > the > lute. It's too early for me; I need more coffee >:) > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > >-- www3.sympatico.ca/echapin
Re: Stradivari lute? now: symm/asymm & perfect/imperfect
Manolo, Yes, thanks for the ideas, and I would love to read the book by Lewis Munford, and will order it today. However, I do differ with you on the workmanship aspect. For instance, I've noticed in lutes that I've personally examined, having a bugle where the spine goes into the end clasp, maybe not too clear. Many lutemakers I've spoken with including Paul Thompson can't see why anyone would make a new lute like this. Also, the Yale Jauch is very much distorted beyond any reasonable artistic expression, and the belly shape needs to be reconstructed, to be acceptable, in this case you can't blame tension and humidity, only the workman ship The other point being, lutes have most likely distorted over the centuries so the actual shape may not be what we think it is. The symmetrical templates of Stradivari at least, gives us a clue, as to where they were starting from. It is almost impossible to make a perfectly symmetrical anything, lute, guitar etc. they will all differ slightly no matter how hard one tries to achieve perfect symmetry. However one has to start somewhere. >In the japanese aesthetic there is a word I can't >remember now for this >idea of being perfect precisely through imperfection I believe the term for it is Wabe Sabe. The American Indians leave out threads in their woven rugs to make them imperfect and hence, satisfy the evil sprits. I've long suspected that the lutemakers of the past had a similar idea, the imperfection of man, but that can be achieved simply by trying to be perfect. That being said, there are some lutes that appear to be very symmetrical, as well. All the best, Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: Manolo Laguillo To: Michael Thames ; LUTELIST Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 9:38 AM Subject: was: Stradivari lute? now: symm/asymm & perfect/imperfect Sorry, but I can't agree with the two ideas expressed below by Michael Thames: 1. poor workmanship on the part of old lutemakers 2. symmetry equals to perfection, therefore asymmetry = imperfection. Because: a. They had a superior craftmanship level, and could have done the lutes perfectly symmetrical if they would have the desire and need to do so. We only have to look at the perfectly spherical stone "balls" present in so many buildings of the Renaissance. The sphere is, by the way, the representation of absolute symmetry... b. Symmetry is one of the least interesting forms of composition. It is a cheap trick, and it is wise to avoid it. BTW, the nazi architects (Albert Speer...) used it a lot. Actually symmetry does not exist in nature, but something much more exciting: the appearance of it, without really being it. In the japanese aesthetic there is a word I can't remember now for this idea of being perfect precisely through imperfection. All this relates with something of paramount importance in the interpretation of early music, that we all know, and that I am going to express with an example: if we have a measure with 4 /\ /\ , each one has to be played with a different accent, stressed differently. This is difficult for us because we were born in an epoch where everything is mechanic, and handmade objects are luxury... Remember William Morris? I will dare to recommend you a book, Michael, that you could enjoy a lot: Lewis Mumford, Technics and Civilization. Saludos, Manolo Laguillo Michael Thames wrote: Lundberg did not say that lute bellies weren't symmetrical, >just that the lute as a whole doesn't have a clear center line. Without getting lundbergs book out, he says something to the effect that there isn't a straight line on the lute except the strings. I guess it depends on how you look at it. I prefer to think in terms that the lute has a center line and the neck is tilted. From my experience with the few different lutes I've made, the originals are not perfectly symmetrical. For many reasons age, stress etc. poor workmanship. For this reason alone, coming across Stadivari's template, and seeing first hand that lutes were conceived from the beginning to be perfectly symmetrical cleared up at least for me some of the mystery. I know many makers will copy a lute with every distortion, and imperfection, it seems for me that this might not be the way to do it. I wonder if these early makers had some mind set to stop just short of perfection? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Garry Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 5:54 AM Subject: RE: Stradivari lute? -Original Message- From: Michael Thames [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 10:55 AM To: Lute net Subject: Stradivar
Re: Stradivari lute?
At 08:20 AM 5/23/2005, Alexander Batov wrote: >I think there is one more Strad guitar in private collection in Italy, with >some late alterations (shortened neck etc); can find out more if desired ... I have a decent French article on Strad's guitars at home. (Writing from the office I can't reference it or provide a proper citation.) Still, isn't the attribution for this guitar either a little speculative, or regarding an instrument missing enough of its original components to be questionable? In any case, I absolutely am interested in whatever you know of this guitar, Alexander. Thanks, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Stradivari lute?
Eugene, Sorry I mis read the link to the NMM, in SD, as saying there was a Stadivari guitar in Cremona. Must have been the jet lag, last night. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "EUGENE BRAIG IV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Lute net" Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 3:03 AM Subject: Re: Stradivari lute? > - Original Message - > From: Michael Thames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Monday, May 23, 2005 0:20 am > Subject: Re: Stradivari lute? > > > That's news to me, that there are 2 surviving guitars by > > Stradivari. I > > know of the well known one with the longer than usual string length. > > > Clocking a whopping 74 cm scale, that one is the "Hill" guitar in the Ashmolean, England. The other is the "Rawlins" guitar of a more manageable ca. 64 cm scale, again in the National Music Museum, SD. > <http://www.usd.edu/smm/rawlins5.html> > > Best, > Eugene > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Stradivari lute?
>Lundberg did not say that lute bellies weren't symmetrical, >just that the lute >as a whole doesn't have a clear center line. Without getting lundbergs book out, he says something to the effect that there isn't a straight line on the lute except the strings. I guess it depends on how you look at it. I prefer to think in terms that the lute has a center line and the neck is tilted. From my experience with the few different lutes I've made, the originals are not perfectly symmetrical. For many reasons age, stress etc. poor workmanship. For this reason alone, coming across Stadivari's template, and seeing first hand that lutes were conceived from the beginning to be perfectly symmetrical cleared up at least for me some of the mystery. I know many makers will copy a lute with every distortion, and imperfection, it seems for me that this might not be the way to do it. I wonder if these early makers had some mind set to stop just short of perfection? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Garry Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 5:54 AM Subject: RE: Stradivari lute? > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Michael Thames [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 10:55 AM > > To: Lute net > > Subject: Stradivari lute? > > > > > > I noticed a lute template of the belly ( 11 course French lute) made from > > thick paper, folded down the middle to from the centre line, indicating to > > me, that lutes were originally conceived to be symmetrically prefect, and do > > in fact have a clear centre line, contrary to what Lundberg says. > > [GB>] > > Lundberg did not say that lute bellies weren't symmetrical, just that the lute > as a whole doesn't have a clear center line. > > If you'll look at page 76 ( Practicum One: Making the Form ) in "Historical Lute > Construction", you'll notice that Lundberg's instructions coincide with what you > describe above. > > I'm sure that Martin Shepherd (first name out of the brain this morning.) or > someone else can probably give a concise description of the "asymmetry" of the > lute. It's too early for me; I need more coffee >:) > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
RE: Stradivari lute?
> -Original Message- > From: Michael Thames [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 10:55 AM > To: Lute net > Subject: Stradivari lute? > > > I noticed a lute template of the belly ( 11 course French lute) made from > thick paper, folded down the middle to from the centre line, indicating to > me, that lutes were originally conceived to be symmetrically prefect, and do > in fact have a clear centre line, contrary to what Lundberg says. [GB>] Lundberg did not say that lute bellies weren't symmetrical, just that the lute as a whole doesn't have a clear center line. If you'll look at page 76 ( Practicum One: Making the Form ) in "Historical Lute Construction", you'll notice that Lundberg's instructions coincide with what you describe above. I'm sure that Martin Shepherd (first name out of the brain this morning.) or someone else can probably give a concise description of the "asymmetry" of the lute. It's too early for me; I need more coffee >:) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Stradivari lute?
- Original Message - From: Michael Thames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Monday, May 23, 2005 0:20 am Subject: Re: Stradivari lute? > That's news to me, that there are 2 surviving guitars by > Stradivari. I > know of the well known one with the longer than usual string length. Clocking a whopping 74 cm scale, that one is the "Hill" guitar in the Ashmolean, England. The other is the "Rawlins" guitar of a more manageable ca. 64 cm scale, again in the National Music Museum, SD. <http://www.usd.edu/smm/rawlins5.html> Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Stradivari lute?
Marion, Yes, it was one of the highlights of the trip for my wife and I. There are also 4 Strads, and an Amati, as well as a Gesu, in a private room in the city hall, that we found out about by accident, not well known there. G.B. Ceruti any relation to you? Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Dr. Marion Ceruti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lute net" Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 7:13 PM Subject: Re: Stradivari lute? > Hi Michael, > > ++Glad you enjoyed your trip. > > Whilst visiting the one of the most charming cities in Italia, Cremona, where Stradivari worked. I visited the museum that houses tools, and moulds etc. from his workshop, I was hoping some energy from the master would be absorbed into my DNA, my hopes were fulfilled. > > ++That is a wonderful museum which also has a violin by G.B. Ceruti, although not one of his best, to be sure. His best violins can be heard in various orchestras. Some concert masters have them, a fact that I discovered while singing with one. > > I noticed a lute template of the belly ( 11 course French lute) made from thick paper, folded down the middle to from the centre line, indicating to me, that lutes were originally conceived to be symmetrically prefect, and do in fact have a clear centre line, contrary to what Lundberg says. > > ++Yes, that is interesting. I also learned, while I was there, that Stradivari also made mandolins, although I have yet to see one in person. > >Cheers, > Marion > ++Mandolino napoletano+++ > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
Re: Stradivari lute?
>There are only two authenticated Stradivari mandolini >and two authenticated guitars to have survived (along >with a few leftover parts and some guitars of dubious >attribution). That's news to me, that there are 2 surviving guitars by Stradivari. I know of the well known one with the longer than usual string length. At the Cremona Museum there was only a broken off neck of a guitar by Stradivari that I noticed. I'm sure I would have seen a guitar there if there was one. I hope I didn't over look it. There was also a template for a therobo, as well. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "EUGENE BRAIG IV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Dr. Marion Ceruti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Lute net" Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 9:09 PM Subject: Re: Stradivari lute? > - Original Message - > From: "Dr. Marion Ceruti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Sunday, May 22, 2005 9:13 pm > Subject: Re: Stradivari lute? > > > ++Yes, that is interesting. I also learned, while I was there, > > that Stradivari also made mandolins, although I have yet to see > > one in person. > > > There are only two authenticated Stradivari mandolini and two authenticated guitars to have survived (along with a few leftover parts and some guitars of dubious attribution). One of the mandolins is in a private collection in England. The other, the "Cutler-Challen" mandolino choristo, is in the National Music Museum, South Dakota. > <http://www.usd.edu/smm/StradMandolin.html> > I have not seen either in person, but I have played Richard Walz's close reproduction of the "Cutler-Challen" Strad by Dan Larson. It is the finest piece of work I've seen by Dan, has a remarkable bass response, and a beautifully varnished, richly figured maple bowl. > > I'm guessing you already knew this, but just in case... > > Best, > Eugene > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
Re: Stradivari lute?
- Original Message - From: "Dr. Marion Ceruti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Sunday, May 22, 2005 9:13 pm Subject: Re: Stradivari lute? > ++Yes, that is interesting. I also learned, while I was there, > that Stradivari also made mandolins, although I have yet to see > one in person. There are only two authenticated Stradivari mandolini and two authenticated guitars to have survived (along with a few leftover parts and some guitars of dubious attribution). One of the mandolins is in a private collection in England. The other, the "Cutler-Challen" mandolino choristo, is in the National Music Museum, South Dakota. <http://www.usd.edu/smm/StradMandolin.html> I have not seen either in person, but I have played Richard Walz's close reproduction of the "Cutler-Challen" Strad by Dan Larson. It is the finest piece of work I've seen by Dan, has a remarkable bass response, and a beautifully varnished, richly figured maple bowl. I'm guessing you already knew this, but just in case... Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Stradivari lute?
Hi Michael, ++Glad you enjoyed your trip. Whilst visiting the one of the most charming cities in Italia, Cremona, where Stradivari worked. I visited the museum that houses tools, and moulds etc. from his workshop, I was hoping some energy from the master would be absorbed into my DNA, my hopes were fulfilled. ++That is a wonderful museum which also has a violin by G.B. Ceruti, although not one of his best, to be sure. His best violins can be heard in various orchestras. Some concert masters have them, a fact that I discovered while singing with one. I noticed a lute template of the belly ( 11 course French lute) made from thick paper, folded down the middle to from the centre line, indicating to me, that lutes were originally conceived to be symmetrically prefect, and do in fact have a clear centre line, contrary to what Lundberg says. ++Yes, that is interesting. I also learned, while I was there, that Stradivari also made mandolins, although I have yet to see one in person. Cheers, Marion ++Mandolino napoletano+++ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Stradivari lute?
>> Stewart Pollens, the Musical Instruments Conservator at >the Metropolitan >> Museum has written a large article on the subject, which >by now should be >> submitted to LSA Editors in the expanded version of the >previously > published >> one. >> Nice try, Thames, but this is not a job for mickey-mouse->luthiers. >> RT > I guess to you, Trovosky, Stadivari's paper is more sacred than an > actual Jauch, Schelle, or Frei, that most competent luthiers have access to. Competent luthiers won't touch you with a 10 foot pole. > I bet your favorite movie this year is Star Wars. My favorite won't be out until August, I'm afraid... And yours must be "Looney Tunes". > Sorry to give you the impression, I wanted to write a thesis on the > subject. > Hope you can quit your daytime job, maybe in this lifetime, if not the > next. I rather like my dayjob, and I've met some VERY interesting people there RT > >>> Whilst visiting the one of the most charming cities in Italia, Cremona, > where >>> Stradivari worked. I visited the museum that houses tools, and moulds > etc. >>> from his workshop, I was hoping some energy from the master would be > absorbed >>> into my DNA, my hopes were fulfilled. >>> >>> I noticed a lute template of the belly ( 11 course French lute) made > from >>> thick paper, folded down the middle to from the centre line, indicating > to >>> me, that lutes were originally conceived to be symmetrically prefect, > and do >>> in fact have a clear centre line, contrary to what Lundberg says. >>> Has anyone had access to investigate these moulds of Stradivari ? There > were >>> also very clear string spacing templates for the bridge and nut, as well > as >>> pegbox and fingerboard templates. As well as 2 different guitar shapes, > and >>> many different peghead templates. >>> Michael Thames >> Stewart Pollens, the Musical Instruments Conservator at the Metropolitan >> Museum has written a large article on the subject, which by now should be >> submitted to LSA Editors in the expanded version of the previously > published >> one. >> Nice try, Thames, but this is not a job for mickey-mouse-luthiers. >> RT >> __ >> Roman M. Turovsky >> http://polyhymnion.org/swv ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Stradivari lute?
>Stewart Pollens, the Musical Instruments Conservator at >the Metropolitan >Museum has written a large article on the subject, which >by now should be >submitted to LSA Editors in the expanded version of the >previously published >one. >Nice try, Thames, but this is not a job for mickey-mouse->luthiers. >RT I guess to you, Trovosky, Stadivari's paper is more sacred than an actual Jauch, Schelle, or Frei, that most competent luthiers have access to. I bet your favorite movie this year is Star Wars. Sorry to give you the impression, I wanted to write a thesis on the subject. Hope you can quit your daytime job, maybe in this lifetime, if not the next. Michael Thames www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Michael Thames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Lute net" Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 9:33 AM Subject: Re: Stradivari lute? > > Whilst visiting the one of the most charming cities in Italia, Cremona, where > > Stradivari worked. I visited the museum that houses tools, and moulds etc. > > from his workshop, I was hoping some energy from the master would be absorbed > > into my DNA, my hopes were fulfilled. > > > > I noticed a lute template of the belly ( 11 course French lute) made from > > thick paper, folded down the middle to from the centre line, indicating to > > me, that lutes were originally conceived to be symmetrically prefect, and do > > in fact have a clear centre line, contrary to what Lundberg says. > > Has anyone had access to investigate these moulds of Stradivari ? There were > > also very clear string spacing templates for the bridge and nut, as well as > > pegbox and fingerboard templates. As well as 2 different guitar shapes, and > > many different peghead templates. > > Michael Thames > Stewart Pollens, the Musical Instruments Conservator at the Metropolitan > Museum has written a large article on the subject, which by now should be > submitted to LSA Editors in the expanded version of the previously published > one. > Nice try, Thames, but this is not a job for mickey-mouse-luthiers. > RT > __ > Roman M. Turovsky > http://polyhymnion.org/swv > > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Stradivari lute?
> Whilst visiting the one of the most charming cities in Italia, Cremona, where > Stradivari worked. I visited the museum that houses tools, and moulds etc. > from his workshop, I was hoping some energy from the master would be absorbed > into my DNA, my hopes were fulfilled. > > I noticed a lute template of the belly ( 11 course French lute) made from > thick paper, folded down the middle to from the centre line, indicating to > me, that lutes were originally conceived to be symmetrically prefect, and do > in fact have a clear centre line, contrary to what Lundberg says. > Has anyone had access to investigate these moulds of Stradivari ? There were > also very clear string spacing templates for the bridge and nut, as well as > pegbox and fingerboard templates. As well as 2 different guitar shapes, and > many different peghead templates. > Michael Thames Stewart Pollens, the Musical Instruments Conservator at the Metropolitan Museum has written a large article on the subject, which by now should be submitted to LSA Editors in the expanded version of the previously published one. Nice try, Thames, but this is not a job for mickey-mouse-luthiers. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
