Re: The Right Hand Revisited
Funny that you should mention muting. I was just experimenting with muting with the butt of my thumb on Baroque lute last night. I have a CD of delightful theorbo music of DeVise. The performer mutes a lot of bass notes, but the mutes are NOISY. The only problem with my muting is that it mutes the strings on either side of the bass string in question so it cuts out some of the resonance. It does eliminate the 'chink' one gets when muting with the thumb though. It's another tool in the arsenal. Can't one mute with the butt of the thumb using thumb under? I agree that it was probably a non issue in early music because of the sustain. Also, nobody complains that harps ring through. Bob Barto told me he thinks excessive muting is, how did he put it - I can't think of exactly the word he used, too prissy or fussy. cheers, >Hi Ed: > >One of the advantages of thumb out is the ability to deaden open bases when >called for. In saying, that I realize I am about to discuss music that was >written for thumb in/under but never the less, it is relevant. F.DaMilano >and many of his contemporaries made use of an abundance of open base notes. >There are occasions in his music that an open sixth course will be followed >by an open fifth course where the open sixth, if left to continue sounding, >creates a discord harmonically, or clouds the clean articulation of a >moving base line. I have found with the thumb out one has the ability to >deaden those courses easily with the fatty part of the hand where the thumb >emerges. I have found this to be the case with a lot of Dowland as well. I >don't think this was a big issue in the early part of the sixteenth century >because the strings were not as resonant or the Lutes as sustaining. The >sound died pretty quickly making this a non issue. > >Vance Wood. > >- Original Message - >From: "Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 5:07 AM >Subject: Re: The Right Hand Revisited > > >> >I have found some strong advantages to playing the thumb out that are not >> >possible, at least in my mind, with thumb in. >> >> Could you expand on that? the advantages part, I mean. >> >> I'm struggling with thumb out. I find it hard to get a good tone >> while plucking thumb and index on adjacent strings and wonder if that >> may be why B lutenists incessantly arppegiate everything. Of course, >> I'm a beginner with thumb out (on the lute) but it certainly seems >> like there is a very small margin of error. Apparently not just me, >> Bob Barto said it has only been in the last 5 years that he has >> really gotten his thumb out there. > > > > cheers, > > -- > > Ed Durbrow > > Saitama, Japan > > http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
Re: The Right Hand Revisited
>To play "historically", whatever that means, presumably involves >understanding the full historical picture. The more I learn, the >wider that picture gets. The more I look at paintings the wider the picture gets. I wish I knew more about art history: were the subjects models? how accurate were the depictions? I see a lot of pictures that look suspiciously like strumming. As RT noted there are many instances where the little finger is not on the belly. -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
Fwd: Re: Re: The Right Hand Revisited
Thanks, Stewart, but actually on further inspection its obvious that the pictures on Jacob Heringman's homepage are in no sense accurate animations, because they are just still shots taken from different angles, so they don't show the true movement of the technique (they give the impression that the hand is pivoting from the wrist rather than the elbow). To see Jacob's technique accurately people should go to the short video on the American Lute Society Site: http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/download/video/Jacob.avi Craig >From: "Stewart McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "Lute Net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: Re: The Right Hand Revisited >Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 17:23:01 - > >Dear Craig, > >Many thanks. That's extremely useful. You can see clearly how the >right-hand index finger follows through its stroke past the >thumbnail. It is very instructive for anyone wishing to understand >thumb-inside. > >Best wishes, > >Stewart McCoy. > > >- Original Message - >From: "Craig Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 3:00 PM >Subject: Fwd: Re: The Right Hand Revisited > > > > You can see an animation of Jacob Heringman's right hand playing >with 'thumb > > under' technique on the home page of his website >www.heringman.com. You just > > move your mouse over the close-up pictures of his hand and his >hand will > > move. Of course whether you do this 'mouse under' or 'mouse over' >is purely > > a matter of personal preference. > > > > Craig > > > > >From: Ed Durbrow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >To: lute list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >Subject: Re: The Right Hand Revisited > > >Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 22:13:57 +0900 > > > > > > >is there any site with a description of the > > > >several right hand techniques? > > > > > > > > >I recommend: http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1.html Alfonso > > >Marin's collection of lute related pictures. A picture is worth >a > > >thousand words. > > > > > >cheers, > > >-- > > >Ed Durbrow > > > _ It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger
Re: The Right Hand Revisited
I agree. Do what suits you. I play thumb under for the earlier renaissance music, thumb out for baroque. ed At 12:31 AM 11/18/03 +, Stewart McCoy wrote: >Dear Jason, > >To answer your question: absolutely no reason at all. If you are >happy with thumb-outside, go for it. Stay with it. Enjoy it. play >quickly and happily. It's absolutely fine. Laurencini played that >way, as did Dowland in later life. There is a famous picture of >Bakfark playing thumb-outside. Stay with it and believe in it. > >I am a thumb-inside man. It suits me. I used to play thumb-outside >(classicial guitar technique - little finger not on the soundboard) >and changed to thumb-inside in 1978. I have since dallied with >thumb-outside for playing the baroque lute, and have gone back to >playing thumb-inside. It suits me, and I stay with it. Of course, it >is impossible to say for sure what is best for you, but on the >evidence I have, I think you should stay with thumb-outside. > >To play "historically", whatever that means, presumably involves >understanding the full historical picture. The more I learn, the >wider that picture gets. > >Best wishes, > >Stewart McCoy. > >PS for Ron: How to pluck with the right hand is crucial for us all, >so if the question is discussed frequently, so much the better. It >is important to think, re-think, and think again. The more >contributions we get from people the better, even if there is some >duplication of thought. > > >- Original Message - >From: "Jason Kortis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "Lute List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 6:20 PM >Subject: Re: The Right Hand Revisited > > > > I've never played "thumb in" or "thumb under" or whatever it may >be called, > > but does it really facilitate the thumb-index alternation of FAST >scalar > > runs? It would great if someone could post a compressed video with >audio > > demonstrating the benfits of this tecnique.With "thumb out" >technique, I can > > easily play combinations of blazingly fast scalar runs (160-170bpm >for eight > > notes) and block chords. What would be the purpose of learning to >play > > thumb-inside if one achieves a beautiful tone and dynamic range >with "thumb > > out" technique other than maybe aesthetic or historical reasons? > > Jason > > - Original Message - > > From: "Ron Fletcher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 10:18 AM > > Subject: FW: The Right Hand Revisited > > > > > > > This is the old chestnut which comes out every year! > > > > > > When I joined this list around 7-8 years ago, I was corrected by >one of > > our erstwhile antipodean lutenists thus.. > > > > > > Thumb-in = Early lute technique (fast-runs and fewer courses) > > > Thumb-out = Later lute technique (More bass strings to contend >with) > > > Thumb-over = Guitarist's cheat for playing F-major > > > Thumb-under = An illegal move in Rugby Football > > > > > > Best Wishes > > > > > > Ron (UK) > > > > > > Jon Murphy wrote: > > > I was recently emailed a couple of paragraphs from a lute >instructional > > > regarding the right hand - it spoke of "thumb under" and "thumb >over". > > Now then, is thumb > > > in/out another way of saying the same thing - or a different >thing > > entirely.
Re: The Right Hand Revisited
Dear Jason, To answer your question: absolutely no reason at all. If you are happy with thumb-outside, go for it. Stay with it. Enjoy it. play quickly and happily. It's absolutely fine. Laurencini played that way, as did Dowland in later life. There is a famous picture of Bakfark playing thumb-outside. Stay with it and believe in it. I am a thumb-inside man. It suits me. I used to play thumb-outside (classicial guitar technique - little finger not on the soundboard) and changed to thumb-inside in 1978. I have since dallied with thumb-outside for playing the baroque lute, and have gone back to playing thumb-inside. It suits me, and I stay with it. Of course, it is impossible to say for sure what is best for you, but on the evidence I have, I think you should stay with thumb-outside. To play "historically", whatever that means, presumably involves understanding the full historical picture. The more I learn, the wider that picture gets. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. PS for Ron: How to pluck with the right hand is crucial for us all, so if the question is discussed frequently, so much the better. It is important to think, re-think, and think again. The more contributions we get from people the better, even if there is some duplication of thought. - Original Message - From: "Jason Kortis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Lute List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 6:20 PM Subject: Re: The Right Hand Revisited > I've never played "thumb in" or "thumb under" or whatever it may be called, > but does it really facilitate the thumb-index alternation of FAST scalar > runs? It would great if someone could post a compressed video with audio > demonstrating the benfits of this tecnique.With "thumb out" technique, I can > easily play combinations of blazingly fast scalar runs (160-170bpm for eight > notes) and block chords. What would be the purpose of learning to play > thumb-inside if one achieves a beautiful tone and dynamic range with "thumb > out" technique other than maybe aesthetic or historical reasons? > Jason > - Original Message - > From: "Ron Fletcher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 10:18 AM > Subject: FW: The Right Hand Revisited > > > > This is the old chestnut which comes out every year! > > > > When I joined this list around 7-8 years ago, I was corrected by one of > our erstwhile antipodean lutenists thus.. > > > > Thumb-in = Early lute technique (fast-runs and fewer courses) > > Thumb-out = Later lute technique (More bass strings to contend with) > > Thumb-over = Guitarist's cheat for playing F-major > > Thumb-under = An illegal move in Rugby Football > > > > Best Wishes > > > > Ron (UK) > > > > Jon Murphy wrote: > > I was recently emailed a couple of paragraphs from a lute instructional > > regarding the right hand - it spoke of "thumb under" and "thumb over". > Now then, is thumb > > in/out another way of saying the same thing - or a different thing > entirely.
Re: The Right Hand Revisited
Hi James: I look forward to your pictures/movie. I think any time you are = discussing technique people around here come alive. It is encouraging = to me that there are so many who are playing thumb out, or at least = playing around with the technique. I first started serious study of the = Lute at a time when most were not sure how they were supposed to be = playing the Lute. Like many others I came to the Lute by way of the = Guitar and was at this point mostly self taught. Needless to say I had = more bad habits than good and as you may or may not know it is harder to = unlearn a bad habit than to acquire ten good ones. When that bad habit = is in such a critical area as the right hand it puts the experience on a = long, bumpy, uphill and dusty road full of pot holes and snags, all of = which have to be dealt with. After putting the Lute down for more years = than I care to admit, due to an auto accident, I have concentrated on = resolving these old issues. Vance Wood. - Original Message -=20 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 10:08 AM Subject: Re: The Right Hand Revisited Hi Vance, I'm going to try to send you some photos, or maybe even a 30 second = movie of my right hand position on lute. It might take a few days; my = wife is the cameraman, so we have to both be in the mood. :) There's been some good responses to your question I think. Sincerely, James --
Re: The Right Hand Revisited
In a message dated 11/17/03 10:08:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > You can see an animation of Jacob Heringman's right hand playing with > 'thumb > under' technique on the home page of his website www.heringman.com. You can also find video clips (no sound!) showing thumb-under right technique for Jacob and for Ronn McFarlane and Andrea Damiani on the LSA website at: http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/download/index.html";>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/download/index.html (go down the page to "Instructional Materials") Kenneth Be Cleveland, Ohio --
Re: The Right Hand Revisited
Well, I guess it would depend on the length of your fingers and thumb! :?) If your pinky is anchored below the first course, then reaching the 10/11/12th course with your thumb can be tricky, especially with faster passages -- and getting a proper angle for a good tone. It's funny, but this whole discussion changes drastically with different hand shapes and sizes. One could follow all of the best advice on getting a good thumb-under position and the tone could still be terrible without some adjustments for your particular hands. I have a terribly thin thumb which makes a convention thumb-under position difficult. I have to change my angle a bit to get a good tone with the thumb -- very maddening! I've also seen some famous lutenists (names witheld to protect the innocent) who were born with very short thumbs -- perfect for thumb-under technique. Born to lute. No bending, the thumb just zips under the index finger like magic -- I, of course, have a very long thumb which can get in the way at times. --- Ed Durbrow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > It would be very difficult to play much of the > >later music with larger lutes (10+ courses) with thumb under -- you can't > get > >to the lower courses as easily. > > I don't understand this. How does the hand position make a difference > on the deep bass courses? I am stretching to the max to hit the 12th > and 13th courses on my B lute and thumb under or over doesn't really > enter into it. I find there really is no thumb under or over until > you get up to the higher courses and your thumb has to make a > decision. Well, that's not quite right, there is a thumb out > position, but for me, not when I'm stretched. > > I'm trying to get my hand to be thumb out on my B lute which is way > different than thumb under on the Ren lute, but it is easy to slip > into thumb under (even with a basic thumb out position) when I want a > beatiful tone and the thumb and forefinger are playing adjacent > strings on the B lute. > I hope that is comprehensible. It's hard to explain. > > cheers, > -- > Ed Durbrow > Saitama, Japan > http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ > > = web: http://www.christopherschaub.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The Right Hand Revisited
Dear All, I think, as someone else also pointed out, that the reasons to choose one way or the other should be: "To be able to make a good sound- according to your ideal-, and at the same time have many different colours- not just one fixed sound-. To be able to play fast and slow accurately, and above all, to do exactly what you want rather than what you can. I don't know, maybe I'm too simple. Vance, I think you can control the basses pretty good playing thumb in too (at least, I can). Saludos, A
Re: The Right Hand Revisited
Hi Ed: One of the advantages of thumb out is the ability to deaden open bases when called for. In saying, that I realize I am about to discuss music that was written for thumb in/under but never the less, it is relevant. F.DaMilano and many of his contemporaries made use of an abundance of open base notes. There are occasions in his music that an open sixth course will be followed by an open fifth course where the open sixth, if left to continue sounding, creates a discord harmonically, or clouds the clean articulation of a moving base line. I have found with the thumb out one has the ability to deaden those courses easily with the fatty part of the hand where the thumb emerges. I have found this to be the case with a lot of Dowland as well. I don't think this was a big issue in the early part of the sixteenth century because the strings were not as resonant or the Lutes as sustaining. The sound died pretty quickly making this a non issue. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: "Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 5:07 AM Subject: Re: The Right Hand Revisited > >I have found some strong advantages to playing the thumb out that are not > >possible, at least in my mind, with thumb in. > > Could you expand on that? the advantages part, I mean. > > I'm struggling with thumb out. I find it hard to get a good tone > while plucking thumb and index on adjacent strings and wonder if that > may be why B lutenists incessantly arppegiate everything. Of course, > I'm a beginner with thumb out (on the lute) but it certainly seems > like there is a very small margin of error. Apparently not just me, > Bob Barto said it has only been in the last 5 years that he has > really gotten his thumb out there. > > cheers, > -- > Ed Durbrow > Saitama, Japan > http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
Re: The Right Hand Revisited
I've never played "thumb in" or "thumb under" or whatever it may be called, but does it really facilitate the thumb-index alternation of FAST scalar runs? It would great if someone could post a compressed video with audio demonstrating the benfits of this tecnique.With "thumb out" technique, I can easily play combinations of blazingly fast scalar runs (160-170bpm for eight notes) and block chords. What would be the purpose of learning to play thumb-inside if one achieves a beautiful tone and dynamic range with "thumb out" technique other than maybe aesthetic or historical reasons? Jason - Original Message - From: "Ron Fletcher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 10:18 AM Subject: FW: The Right Hand Revisited > This is the old chestnut which comes out every year! > > When I joined this list around 7-8 years ago, I was corrected by one of our erstwhile antipodean lutenists thus.. > > Thumb-in = Early lute technique (fast-runs and fewer courses) > Thumb-out = Later lute technique (More bass strings to contend with) > Thumb-over = Guitarist's cheat for playing F-major > Thumb-under = An illegal move in Rugby Football > > Best Wishes > > Ron (UK) > > Jon Murphy wrote: > I was recently emailed a couple of paragraphs from a lute instructional > regarding the right hand - it spoke of "thumb under" and "thumb over". Now then, is thumb > in/out another way of saying the same thing - or a different thing entirely. > > > >
Re: Re: The Right Hand Revisited
Dear Craig, Many thanks. That's extremely useful. You can see clearly how the right-hand index finger follows through its stroke past the thumbnail. It is very instructive for anyone wishing to understand thumb-inside. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: "Craig Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 3:00 PM Subject: Fwd: Re: The Right Hand Revisited > You can see an animation of Jacob Heringman's right hand playing with 'thumb > under' technique on the home page of his website www.heringman.com. You just > move your mouse over the close-up pictures of his hand and his hand will > move. Of course whether you do this 'mouse under' or 'mouse over' is purely > a matter of personal preference. > > Craig > > >From: Ed Durbrow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: lute list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Subject: Re: The Right Hand Revisited > >Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 22:13:57 +0900 > > > > >is there any site with a description of the > > >several right hand techniques? > > > > > >I recommend: http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1.html Alfonso > >Marin's collection of lute related pictures. A picture is worth a > >thousand words. > > > >cheers, > >-- > >Ed Durbrow
FW: The Right Hand Revisited
This is the old chestnut which comes out every year! When I joined this list around 7-8 years ago, I was corrected by one of our erstwhile antipodean lutenists thus.. Thumb-in = Early lute technique (fast-runs and fewer courses) Thumb-out = Later lute technique (More bass strings to contend with) Thumb-over = Guitarist's cheat for playing F-major Thumb-under = An illegal move in Rugby Football Best Wishes Ron (UK) Jon Murphy wrote: I was recently emailed a couple of paragraphs from a lute instructional regarding the right hand - it spoke of "thumb under" and "thumb over". Now then, is thumb in/out another way of saying the same thing - or a different thing entirely.
Fwd: Re: The Right Hand Revisited
You can see an animation of Jacob Heringman's right hand playing with 'thumb under' technique on the home page of his website www.heringman.com. You just move your mouse over the close-up pictures of his hand and his hand will move. Of course whether you do this 'mouse under' or 'mouse over' is purely a matter of personal preference. Craig >From: Ed Durbrow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: lute list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: The Right Hand Revisited >Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 22:13:57 +0900 > > >is there any site with a description of the > >several right hand techniques? > > >I recommend: http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1.html Alfonso >Marin's collection of lute related pictures. A picture is worth a >thousand words. > >cheers, >-- >Ed Durbrow >Saitama, Japan >http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ > > _ It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger
Re: The Right Hand Revisited
> It would be very difficult to play much of the >later music with larger lutes (10+ courses) with thumb under -- you can't get >to the lower courses as easily. I don't understand this. How does the hand position make a difference on the deep bass courses? I am stretching to the max to hit the 12th and 13th courses on my B lute and thumb under or over doesn't really enter into it. I find there really is no thumb under or over until you get up to the higher courses and your thumb has to make a decision. Well, that's not quite right, there is a thumb out position, but for me, not when I'm stretched. I'm trying to get my hand to be thumb out on my B lute which is way different than thumb under on the Ren lute, but it is easy to slip into thumb under (even with a basic thumb out position) when I want a beatiful tone and the thumb and forefinger are playing adjacent strings on the B lute. I hope that is comprehensible. It's hard to explain. cheers, -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
Re: The Right Hand Revisited
>is there any site with a description of the >several right hand techniques? I recommend: http://www.xs4all.nl/~amarin/Page1.html Alfonso Marin's collection of lute related pictures. A picture is worth a thousand words. cheers, -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
Re: The Right Hand Revisited
>I have found some strong advantages to playing the thumb out that are not >possible, at least in my mind, with thumb in. Could you expand on that? the advantages part, I mean. I'm struggling with thumb out. I find it hard to get a good tone while plucking thumb and index on adjacent strings and wonder if that may be why B lutenists incessantly arppegiate everything. Of course, I'm a beginner with thumb out (on the lute) but it certainly seems like there is a very small margin of error. Apparently not just me, Bob Barto said it has only been in the last 5 years that he has really gotten his thumb out there. cheers, -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
Re: The Right Hand Revisited
"Thomas Schall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > Recently even Bob Barto spoke in an interview for the (british) Lute Society about > Thumb-out as being the historical better way to play baroque lute. Lutz Kirchhof is > playing thumb-out for years (on both renaissance and baroque lute). There are > several studies dealing with the object - an ovberview can be found (in english) by > Clay Erickson who made a short but essential study on the topic quoting most of the > important primary sources. you may call me a snob but I don't much care who of the fab does or doesn't play thumb out. What is important and useful for me, however, is the way I get a smooth interchange of thumb and index for quick runs. If you can do it thumb-out, great! I can more easily do such runs thumb-in, no matter if on baroque or renaissance lutes. -- Best wishes, Mathias Mathias Roesel, Grosze Annenstrasze 5, 28199 Bremen, Deutschland/ Germany, T/F +49 - 421 - 165 49 97, Fax +49 1805 060 334 480 67, E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The Right Hand Revisited
Dear Jon, It would help you understand the difference between the two techniques if you were to see someone demonstrate them to you. However, I'll do my best to describe the difference. Thumb inside This technique seems to have evolved in the latter part of the 15th century, when players were still using a quill or some kind of plectrum to pluck the strings. To get an idea of how the hand should be, put your right hand forearm on a line with/ parallel to the strings of your lute, and strike a string or two with a plectrum held between your thumb and middle finger - yes, middle. Alternatively you could use your ring finger as well as your middle finger to hold the plectrum in place opposite your thumb. Obviously that's not how you would normally hold a plectrum, but by doing so you will be able to see how the index finger is free and able to reach round in front of the thumb, going past the thumb nail. When you have plucked a few notes up and down on different strings, put down the plectrum, and instead pluck the strings alternately with your thumb and index finger, maintaining that same hand position. To make sure you keep your index finger coming round in front of the thumb, you could try plucking the first couple of strings (highest in pitch and nearest the floor as you hold the instrument) down with your thumb, and the 5th and 6th courses (lowest in pitch and nearest the ceiling) up with your index finger. It will feel all the wrong way round, but you won't be able to avoid bringing that index finger round in front of the thumb. All index-finger plucking involves bringing that finger towards the palm of your hand, but with thumb-inside, your thumb gets in the way (as it were). If you have kept your forearm parallel with/ on a line with the strings, the index finger will be plucking almost along the string (in the direction from bridge to nut), not across the string at 90 degrees as you would with a plectrum. Three last points: 1) Your right-hand elbow will be to the right of the lute, as you look down at it, at the same distance from the floor as the bridge is; 2) Try to use the whole of your arm from the elbow, when plucking strings. 3) The little finger of your right hand stays on the lute soundboard all the time. Thumb outside The right-hand thumb is held nearer the nut than the fingers are. Your right-hand arm will approach the strings from over the top of the lute, not from round the side. Your fingers will pluck so that they come naturally towards the palm of the hand, but all the movement will be to the right of the thumb. As before, the little finger of your right hand stays on the lute soundboard all the time (unlike modern classical guitar technique, where the little finger does not touch the soundboard). Although both techniques are remarkably similar, it is important to decide which one you are aiming at. If your technique was between the two, your thumb and index finger would keep crashing into each other every time they plucked a string. -o-O-o- I think 1977 was the year of the great schism, when many lutenists started to play thumb-inside, influenced by the German lutenist, Michael Schaeffer. At first there was some ill-feeling between one or two members of each camp, I think because the newly converted thumb-insiders had to prove that their technique was a valid one. Twenty-five years later there is no longer anything to prove, and there is no ill-feeling. I have never taken sides over technique in a partisan way, although I might encourage someone to change their technique, if I thought that would be of help to them. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 5:47 AM Subject: Re: The Right Hand Revisited > Here we go again, the rank beginner with a basic question. What are we > talking about? > > I was recently emailed a couple of paragraphs from a lute instructional > regarding the right hand - it spoke of "thumb under" and "thumb over". And > I've heard the terms used on this list. I'd been trying to figure whether > "thumb under" meant an upstroke from below the strings (difficult in the > middle courses), or what. When the excerpt said to make the arm parallel to > the strings for "thumb under" I figured out that under must meant closer to > the bridge than the forefinger, and over the converse. Now then, is thumb > in/out another way of saying the same thing - or a different thing entirely. > Best, Jon
Re: The Right Hand Revisited
I think you'll find that the best players play both thumb positions -- it's dependant on the music really. It would be very difficult to play much of the later music with larger lutes (10+ courses) with thumb under -- you can't get to the lower courses as easily. I had to learn "Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring" for a wedding I was playing this summer. I had played it on the guitar and was used to a guitar technique for this piece (similar to thumb-out). I decided to see if I could play it thumb-under transcribed for Ren. lute -- wow, much harder to play cleanly with thumb-under. A good exercise, but the bass line was really tough and much more natural with thumb-out, a lot of fast leaps. Also, the sound of thumb-under is quite a bit different from thumb-out. It think thumb under sounds much better for Ren. music with all of its single line runs over a bass line. The sound of "pipipi" with some arm motion is really hard to duplicate with "imimim" in the right hand. The strong/weak effect of "pipipi" is very hard to recreate if you don't play thumb under. So, I think the best answer is let the music/instrument dictate the best technique--and always go for the best sound. I define the best sound as round, full tone that projects beyond the first few seats! My two or three cents. --- James A Stimson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Dear Vance and All: > I play thumb-out. Much of my playing is on a 10-course lute or theorbo, in > which thumb-out is the more normal position (I think!). Many good baroque > players and continuo specialists currently play thumb-out. None of my > teachers (including many eminent players) has ever told me this position is > wrong; on the contrary, some have endorsed it. The only person ever to > criticize my hand position was a know-it-all shmuck who sells guitars but > doesn't do much playing. > In the end, I chose a hand position that suited me and the repertoire > best, although I may go back to thumb-out someday. I don't worry too much > about "correctness," which may be important to serious researchers but > means less to serious players. > Yours, > Jim > > > > > > "Vance Wood" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: "lute list" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > net> cc: > >Subject: The Right Hand > Revisited > 11/16/2003 08:16 > > PM > > > > > > > > > > I know we beat this subject to death around here but I see the Lute world > once again in transition. My Question is: Does anyone on this list play > thumb out, or know of anyone who plays thumb out and is there any reputable > player doing so? Has anyone done any serious research on this issue out > side of making the claims that the way it is done on the Guitar is wrong > for > the Lute? > > Vance Wood. > > > > > > = web: http://www.christopherschaub.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The Right Hand Revisited
Recently even Bob Barto spoke in an interview for the (british) Lute Society about Thumb-out as being the historical better way to play baroque lute. Lutz Kirchhof is playing thumb-out for years (on both renaissance and baroque lute). There are several studies dealing with the object - an ovberview can be found (in english) by Clay Erickson who made a short but essential study on the topic quoting most of the important primary sources. Just for the record: I'm playing thumb-in Thomas Am Mon, 2003-11-17 um 02.16 schrieb Vance Wood: > I know we beat this subject to death around here but I see the Lute world > once again in transition. My Question is: Does anyone on this list play > thumb out, or know of anyone who plays thumb out and is there any reputable > player doing so? Has anyone done any serious research on this issue out > side of making the claims that the way it is done on the Guitar is wrong for > the Lute? > > Vance Wood. -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss --
Re: The Right Hand Revisited
Here we go again, the rank beginner with a basic question. What are we talking about? I was recently emailed a couple of paragraphs from a lute instructional regarding the right hand - it spoke of "thumb under" and "thumb over". And I've heard the terms used on this list. I'd been trying to figure whether "thumb under" meant an upstroke from below the strings (difficult in the middle courses), or what. When the excerpt said to make the arm parallel to the strings for "thumb under" I figured out that under must meant closer to the bridge than the forefinger, and over the converse. Now then, is thumb in/out another way of saying the same thing - or a different thing entirely. I know I've said that I have over fifty years on the guitar, but never the classical (although my preferred instrument is the classical neck width and bridge). It was all self taught finger pickin' accompanyment to my rather eclectic folk singing repertoire (all traditional old tunes). So perhaps I should know about the thumb from the guitar, but I don't. (But I will say that if my interpretation is right I used both in and out, or under and over, depending on the nature of the song. Thumb out allows a rather raucous "brushing" with the middle and ring fingers, while thumb in works better when trying to make a "medieval riff" between phrases - perhaps I was unconciously trying to mimic the lute. The driving beat of a "John Henry" is quite different than the tender picking on a "Three Ravens".) Pardon that my typing fingers have run away again, I wish they were as quick on the instrument. The two answers I'm seeking are: Is my assumption that "under" or "in" implies a point closer to the bridge than the forefinger, not an angle of stroke? And, is there any site with a description of the several right hand techniques? I've tried setting RH fingers to specific courses, and I've tried working them freely (for instance alternating RH fingers for fast runs on a single course, or even note). And I've tried hammer on and pick off for quick sixteenths. My guess is that the proper technique is a mixture of all of them - but I'd like to start with a traditional technique and work in my own variations from there. Best, Jon > Thanks Arto: I think you are reputable, at least your advise and opinions > have been sound. I agree that thumb out on the Lute is far different than > thumb out on the Guitar. I would like to see some serious Lute players > ferret out the differences instead of condemning the practice straight out. > I have found some strong advantages to playing the thumb out that are not > possible, at least in my mind, with thumb in.
Re: The Right Hand Revisited
Vance Wood at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I would like to see some serious Lute players > ferret out the differences instead of condemning the practice straight out. > I have found some strong advantages to playing the thumb out that are not > possible, at least in my mind, with thumb in. You must be hanging around with the wrong people. In the more than 20 years I've been playing lute, I've never heard any lute player, serious or otherwise, condemn thumb-out. I was a regular LSA seminar attendee from 1984 until parenthood struck in 1999, so I've seen many of the better players play and teach; none of them ever told a student not to play thumb-out. Even by the mid-80's, the more experienced luters talked of the Great Thumb Wars as a thing of the past. BTW, I've always played thumb-out, but I'm a frivolous, disreputable player, and therefore not much use for your present purposes. Howard Posner
Re: The Right Hand Revisited
Dear Vance and All:
I play thumb-out. Much of my playing is on a 10-course lute or theorbo, in
which thumb-out is the more normal position (I think!). Many good baroque
players and continuo specialists currently play thumb-out. None of my
teachers (including many eminent players) has ever told me this position is
wrong; on the contrary, some have endorsed it. The only person ever to
criticize my hand position was a know-it-all shmuck who sells guitars but
doesn't do much playing.
In the end, I chose a hand position that suited me and the repertoire
best, although I may go back to thumb-out someday. I don't worry too much
about "correctness," which may be important to serious researchers but
means less to serious players.
Yours,
Jim
"Vance Wood"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: "lute list" <[EMAIL
PROTECTED]>
net> cc:
Subject: The Right Hand Revisited
11/16/2003 08:16
PM
I know we beat this subject to death around here but I see the Lute world
once again in transition. My Question is: Does anyone on this list play
thumb out, or know of anyone who plays thumb out and is there any reputable
player doing so? Has anyone done any serious research on this issue out
side of making the claims that the way it is done on the Guitar is wrong
for
the Lute?
Vance Wood.
Re: The Right Hand Revisited
Thanks Arto: I think you are reputable, at least your advise and opinions have been sound. I agree that thumb out on the Lute is far different than thumb out on the Guitar. I would like to see some serious Lute players ferret out the differences instead of condemning the practice straight out. I have found some strong advantages to playing the thumb out that are not possible, at least in my mind, with thumb in. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: "Arto Wikla" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2003 3:02 PM Subject: Re: The Right Hand Revisited > > Dear Vance (and the List), > > you asked: > > > I know we beat this subject to death around here but I see the Lute world > > once again in transition. My Question is: Does anyone on this list play > > thumb out, or know of anyone who plays thumb out and is there any reputable > > player doing so? Has anyone done any serious research on this issue out > > side of making the claims that the way it is done on the Guitar is wrong for > > the Lute? > > I play my 2 theorboes thumb out, I also play my arclute thumb out. > Well, I am not "reputable", though ... :-) > > But I play my 6-course definitely thumb in. The same with my 7 course > soprano lute. With my 10-course and 8-course lute the style is mixed: in > some music I play "out", in some "in". And I even mix both the ways of > playing in the same pieces! > > But remember, and take in the account, that "thumb out" in modern guitar > and "thumb out" with lutes are as far off techniques as are "thumb in > lute way" and the guitar technique! > > I think there really is nearly NO difference between the thumb "in" and > "out" in the lute! You just set the angle of the lute neck differently! > But there are lots of differences from the "modern" guitar technique to > both of these! > > Sincerely > > Arto > >
Re: The Right Hand Revisited
Dear Vance (and the List), you asked: > I know we beat this subject to death around here but I see the Lute world > once again in transition. My Question is: Does anyone on this list play > thumb out, or know of anyone who plays thumb out and is there any reputable > player doing so? Has anyone done any serious research on this issue out > side of making the claims that the way it is done on the Guitar is wrong for > the Lute? I play my 2 theorboes thumb out, I also play my arclute thumb out. Well, I am not "reputable", though ... :-) But I play my 6-course definitely thumb in. The same with my 7 course soprano lute. With my 10-course and 8-course lute the style is mixed: in some music I play "out", in some "in". And I even mix both the ways of playing in the same pieces! But remember, and take in the account, that "thumb out" in modern guitar and "thumb out" with lutes are as far off techniques as are "thumb in lute way" and the guitar technique! I think there really is nearly NO difference between the thumb "in" and "out" in the lute! You just set the angle of the lute neck differently! But there are lots of differences from the "modern" guitar technique to both of these! Sincerely Arto
The Right Hand Revisited
I know we beat this subject to death around here but I see the Lute world once again in transition. My Question is: Does anyone on this list play thumb out, or know of anyone who plays thumb out and is there any reputable player doing so? Has anyone done any serious research on this issue out side of making the claims that the way it is done on the Guitar is wrong for the Lute? Vance Wood.
