Re: VERY OFF TOPIC (POLITICS)
Roman wrote: I know what your intent is, but Bob Heinlein is not exactly a model of intellectual precision, obviously... Obvious to you maybe. Are the conclusions wrong? Craig ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: VERY OFF TOPIC (POLITICS)
Craig Allen scripsit: Roman wrote: I know what your intent is, but Bob Heinlein is not exactly a model of intellectual precision, obviously... Obvious to you maybe. Are the conclusions wrong? Craig You might be helped by the original context, but the way the aphorism was presented makes is sound like advocacy of a police state. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: VERY OFF TOPIC (POLITICS)
I know what your intent is, but Bob Heinlein is not exactly a model of intellectual precision, obviously... RT Robert Heinlein. What do you think about his premise in Starship Troopers? (I'll need to reread the book again to be certain.) That the right to vote is only given to those who have served in the military. The Other To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: VERY OFF TOPIC (POLITICS)
The Other scripsit: I know what your intent is, but Bob Heinlein is not exactly a model of intellectual precision, obviously... RT Robert Heinlein. What do you think about his premise in Starship Troopers? (I'll need to reread the book again to be certain.) That the right to vote is only given to those who have served in the military. How telling.. RT ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: VERY OFF TOPIC (POLITICS)
Craig Allen scripsit: Roman wrote: I know what your intent is, but Bob Heinlein is not exactly a model of intellectual precision, obviously... Obvious to you maybe. Are the conclusions wrong? Craig Unlike you, I had an 18 years experience of living in a police state. Beware of what you are asking for. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: VERY OFF TOPIC (POLITICS)
Roman wrote: You might be helped by the original context, but the way the aphorism was presented makes is sound like advocacy of a police state. Actually you may be helped by the original context. I know what it is. For context read Starship Troopers. Try to pay attention to the messages being given by the teacher rather than all the blowing up of alien bugs (something the film version missed completely, but then Hollywood would rather blow things up than tell a story) As Steven T.O. Stubbs pointed out that is the book the quote is taken from and it does have to do with the right to vote being granted to those who have served their nation, presumeabley through military service. People often forget the service part that goes along with military and government service in general. The average citizen doesn't (in any country) in the main serve the nation in any way. Communism in the old Soviet regime and the current versions in China, Korea, and elsewhere tried that by demanding that everything belongs to the State. That to me is a true police state, where it's a crime against the state to possess anything. This is not the premise in Heinleins book. Instead it shows the average person what the nation means and why it is important to want to fight for it, and that only those willing to lay down their lives earn (notice that word) the right to participate in the governing of the nation. People in general, but Americans in particular take Fre! edom for granted. That's the point I (and Heinlein) was making. Craig ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: VERY OFF TOPIC (POLITICS)
Craig Allen scripsit: Roman wrote: You might be helped by the original context, but the way the aphorism was presented makes is sound like advocacy of a police state. Actually you may be helped by the original context. I know what it is. For context read Starship Troopers. Try to pay attention to the messages being given by the teacher rather than all the blowing up of alien bugs (something the film version missed completely, but then Hollywood would rather blow things up than tell a story) As Steven T.O. Stubbs pointed out that is the book the quote is taken from and it does have to do with the right to vote being granted to those who have served their nation, presumeabley through military service. People often Does producing a nation's Culture qualify as a Service? Who is more qualified to vote, Hoppy Smith or Lynndie England forget the service part that goes along with military and government service in general. The average citizen doesn't (in any country) in the main serve the nation in any way. Horsefeathers. In many countries they do, and they are remunerated for it in a variety of social ways. The USA doesn't give a fecal pellet about average citizens, why should it expect large civic spirit from them? Communism in the old Soviet regime and the current versions in China, Korea, and elsewhere tried that by demanding that everything belongs to the State. That to me is a true police state, where it's a crime against the state to possess anything. Craig, if I were you I'd avoid talking about something about which you have no idea. This is not the premise in Heinleins book. Instead it shows the average person what the nation means and why it is important to want to fight for it, and that only those willing to lay down their lives earn (notice that word) the right to participate in the governing of the nation. People in general, but Americans in particular take Fre! edom for granted. That's the point I (and Heinlein) was making. Craig, We are all grown up people here, and we all know that Heilein's fascist fairytales for adults fail to reflect nasty qualities of real human beings, especially corrupted by power (or firepower). This is why in intelligent circles RH doesn't qualify as literature. RT http://polyhymnion.org ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: VERY OFF TOPIC (POLITICS)
At 08:59 AM 5/6/2005, The Other wrote: Robert Heinlein. What do you think about his premise in Starship Troopers? (I'll need to reread the book again to be certain.) That the right to vote is only given to those who have served in the military. I don't think anything at all about it...in the context of this list. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: VERY OFF TOPIC (POLITICS)
Eugene C. Braig IV scripsit: At 08:59 AM 5/6/2005, The Other wrote: Robert Heinlein. What do you think about his premise in Starship Troopers? (I'll need to reread the book again to be certain.) That the right to vote is only given to those who have served in the military. I don't think anything at all about it...in the context of this list. Is the Right to bear Lutes inalienable? RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: VERY OFF TOPIC (POLITICS)
At 10:21 AM 5/6/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: Is the Right to bear Lutes inalienable? Without doubt! To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: VERY OFF TOPIC (POLITICS)
Eugene C. Braig IV scripsit: At 10:21 AM 5/6/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: Is the Right to bear Lutes inalienable? Without doubt! Make it audible in Washington. RT -- http://polyhymnion.org/torban ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: VERY OFF TOPIC (POLITICS)
At 10:34 AM 5/6/2005, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Eugene C. Braig IV scripsit: At 10:21 AM 5/6/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: Is the Right to bear Lutes inalienable? Without doubt! Make it audible in Washington. Oddly enough, part of my day job is to pound the pavement and be audible on the Hill in DC on occasion. Unfortunately, it doesn't involve making the pitch with lute kin in hand. Ah well... Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: VERY OFF TOPIC (POLITICS)
At 10:21 AM 5/6/2005, Roman Turovsky wrote: Is the Right to bear Lutes inalienable? Without doubt! Given that a theorbo could take a few lives in one sideways sweep: could it be considered a Lute of Mass Destruction? RT ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
VERY OFF TOPIC: POLITICS
Hi Arto, I remember the days before the Berlin Wall came down. I was living in Germany at the time. From the Americans helping out in the Berlin blockade, onto the Russian invasion of the then Czechoslovakia in 1968, the Solidarity movement in Poland, and many, many more crises which directly affected the Germans, the USA could do no wrong. Sure, there was the Baader-Meinhof gang, and a few others who were against Vietnam, but America was the great saviour. The same was true of most of western Europe. Now that Communism, and with it the threat of being both dead and red, has gone, the climate has changed. The same nation, America, on whom Europe relied for its safety for more than forty years has become 'The Great Satan'. The more sensible among European media are beginning to realize that the demonisation of America is taking on proportions which remind one of the demonisation of the Jews. The reasons for this are clear. There is a huge Muslim population in Europe which needs to be pacified, for obvious reasons. Then America supports Israel, (as it also does financially countries like Egypt and many others enemies of Israel), but supporting Israel is the cardinal sin. No one doubts or denies that America has made mistakes, but only someone wilfully blind would not see that America has learned from those same mistake. I still remember George Wallace threatening a couple of Blacks with a baseball bat as they tried to enter the University of Alabama in the 50s (?). Watching television after 9/11 and on countless other occasions, one saw almost only black people in every possible position of power and influence, directing the rescue services, the fire brigade, the police, in hospitals as surgeons=E2=80=A6. The last two Secretaries of State have been black (and one of them was the head of the armed forces before that), as have many other important politicians, academics, musicians. One could go on, endlessly=E2=80=A6. That's America. They make huge mistakes, but they learn. In describing America as you do, you overlook one vital factor. Almost without exception, America has been on the side of the angels. They were against the Communists and the Nazis, and contributed immensely towards freeing the world from both those evils. They are against the Islamic tyrannies, and have taken a first step in setting Iraq on the road to democracy. It took years in Germany and Japan to do the same after 1945, and no doubt it will in Iraq, too. Not only that, but other Middle Eastern despots and tyrants are beginning to see that the game is up. Syria is out of the Lebanon, Libya has kept very quiet for a long time now, even renouncing terrorism=E2=80=A6. The Palestinians have even managed to hold something approaching an election=E2=80=A6 Of course you and I could point to situations where America has acted badly, but then, who hasn't? I've never been to America, not have I any desire to go there. But I do know that, whatever failings the country may have, I owe my life to them, as do countless millions of other people. They saved me from Nazism, and from Communism. If it ever does come to 'The Clash of Cultures', if for example Islam tries to reclaim Spain, as it claims it wants to, or if any of the other scenarios materialise which wiser heads than mine regard as very possible, it will be the US of that comes to our aid, while Chirac, Schroeder and the rest of them are being sick with fear into the toilet, before capitulating as quickly as they did before. Europeans can only afford their posturing because if something does go wrong, they know that America will once again save them. Can you seriously imagine Chirac or Schroeder doing anything other than bluster before they surrender? Put simply, if my future depends on the EU or America, I'll take America any day. Cheers Tom Beck -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: VERY OFF TOPIC: POLITICS
Of course you and I could point to situations where America has acted badly, but then, who hasn't? I've never been to America, not have I any desire to go there. But I do know that, whatever failings the country may have, I owe my life to them, as do countless millions of other people. They saved me from Nazism, and from Communism. If it ever does come to 'The Clash of Cultures', if for example Islam tries to reclaim Spain, as it claims it wants to, or if any of the other scenarios materialise which wiser heads than mine regard as very possible, it will be the US of that comes to our aid, while Chirac, Schroeder and the rest of them are being sick with fear into the toilet, before capitulating as quickly as they did before. Europeans can only afford their posturing because if something does go wrong, they know that America will once again save them. Can you seriously imagine Chirac or Schroeder doing anything other than bluster before they surrender? Put simply, if my future depends on the EU or America, I'll take America any day. Cheers Is this all serious, or some kind of a joke? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
VERY OFF TOPIC (POLITICS)
You ask 'Is this all serious, or some kind of a joke?' It's all quite serious. and how I feel. Why shouldn't someone admire America and the good it's done? I'm no politician, but reading the other messages on this subject, the others don't seem to be either. Cheers TB -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: VERY OFF TOPIC (POLITICS)
You ask 'Is this all serious, or some kind of a joke?' It's all quite serious. and how I feel. Why shouldn't someone admire America and the good it's done? I'm no politician, but reading the other messages on this subject, the others don't seem to be either. Cheers Sorry, I just wanted to make sure. Considering what happened in the list not too far away from now, I rather stay out of the discussion. Again, sorry for asking. a To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: VERY OFF TOPIC (POLITICS)
Thank you, Richard for the timely reminder. To have a balanced view, all countries have good characteristics and bad. No one country is all bad or all good. Besides, what is good to some is bad to others. The fact is there are graves of thousands of Americans on foreign soil. These are people who died for the freedom of other countries. Freedom is not free and it is also not cheap. Sometimes we get so focused on what is wrong we forget about what is right and good. Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water. Sing and play lutes. Forget about hatred trips, which do no one any good. Cheers, Marion Mezzosoprano -Original Message-- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: May 5, 2005 8:50 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: VERY OFF TOPIC (POLITICS) You ask 'Is this all serious, or some kind of a joke?' It's all quite serious. and how I feel. Why shouldn't someone admire America and the good it's done? I'm no politician, but reading the other messages on this subject, the others don't seem to be either. Cheers TB -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: VERY OFF TOPIC (POLITICS)
Marion wrote: Freedom is not free and it is also not cheap. You can have peace and you can have freedom. Just don't count on having them together. -- Robert A. Heinlein Regards, Craig ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: VERY OFF TOPIC: POLITICS
I think Arto made the mistake to set the Bush administration equal to the USA. I don't think there is much anti-americanismn in europe but Bush (and others of his administration) would be regarded as a criminal by a very huge percentage of people in europe. The US never had a president like that before. Some may admire his pseudo-religious and anachronistic believes. Others may be friends of strong words and deeds. Anyhow this does not apply to most europeans. And that it is so doesn't have anything to do with anti-americanismn. ooops - I did it again. Actually I never wanted to contribute to discussions like that again. So I better stop at that point ... Best wishes Thomas -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Three switched witches watch three swatch watch switches. Which switched witch watches which swatch watch switch? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: VERY OFF TOPIC: POLITICS...but I wish it were on topic and not politics.
Whatever I think of this topic is irrelevant on this list. I get enough of this type of banter from conversation, radio, print media, television, etc. Unfortunately, I get precious little talk of lute kin from most conversation, radio, print media, television, etc. I wish I could get some lute talk here. E-mail me personally and I will be happy to engage in discussion on non-plucky topics, but not on this list. Eugene At 06:54 PM 5/4/2005, Arto Wikla wrote: Dear lute gang, please forgive me the following... I just try to clear reasons of not understanding the world today. In a private mail I wrote to one of the List members the following. And please, if you dislike politics and/or moral, skip what follows!!! Here comes the quote from a private mail sent by me: The next things you probably would not like to hear: It is not interesting, if Bush is honest or not. It is not interesting if he is clever or not, it is not even interesting, whether he knows, what he is doing or not. What is interesting is that the USA has divorced, separated itself, from the so called western ideals: they (the government of USA) accept torture (with a polished name), they have several concentration camps around the world (with a polished name of course), where real persons - like you or me - are kept indefinitely without any rights, without any justice, perhaps even tortured. Who knows what happens in these camps? There is no way to check that. They (the government) do not even care the international law or the Geneve conventions. So the USA (its government) has intentionally separated itself from the moral and values that used to make Europe and USA close friends. In my eyes USA belongs to the same gang with Russia, Pakistan, China, Israel, Egypt, etc. The human and civil rights are not important, only our military might means something, hell with the human rights and justice... [...] But perhaps you can now better understand, how the USA of today can be seen from outside? And I can assure you, this kind of attitude is VERY common througout the so called western world! At least in our Old Europe... :-( All the best and let us hope better times to the world! Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: VERY OFF TOPIC: POLITICS
Thomas Schall scripsit: I think Arto made the mistake to set the Bush administration equal to the USA. But we, as civilized lutenists, know: there is more to Finland than Arto. RT ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: VERY OFF TOPIC (POLITICS)
Roman wrote: I wrote: You can have peace and you can have freedom. Just don't count on having them together. -- Robert A. Heinlein A recipe for Fascism. You appear to have missed the point. If you want to keep your freedom you must be willing to fight for it, and that tends to obviate peace. Many Germans in the 30's had peace, but at what cost? The Vichy French in WWII had peace, but at what cost? The Finns too had peace during WWII after they won their freedom from the Russians through capitulation with the Nazis. But at what cost? Craig To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Civilized lutenists and the continuity of civilization (was RE: VERY OFF TOPIC: POLITICS)
Anyone who wants to get hot and bothered about American barbarism would make a far more credible and useful argument by critiquing the disproportionate USA consumption of fossil fuels vs. population. Current trending indicates that around the middle of this century, greenhouse gasses will reach a level that they have not been at since the Eocene period, when sea levels were 100 to 200 meters above what they are presently. http://www.earthsci.org/teacher/basicgeol/change/change.html Of course, a truly forward thinking person will take far greater interest in Chinese efforts to emulate the American (fossil fuel based) economic model, which if successful will make these trends and their effects far more acute. So my friends, consider the number and value of lute instrument and lute manuscript collections in coastal areas. When the chips are down, the waves start rolling in at the Folger Library, and tough choices have to be made, which item do you think they will save: a First Folio or some chicken scratch lute manuscript? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 7:06 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lutelist Subject: Re: VERY OFF TOPIC: POLITICS Thomas Schall scripsit: I think Arto made the mistake to set the Bush administration equal to the USA. But we, as civilized lutenists, know: there is more to Finland than Arto. RT ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
VERY OFF TOPIC: POLITICS - don't read if you are Bush challenged...
Dear lute gang, please forgive me the following... I just try to clear reasons of not understanding the world today. In a private mail I wrote to one of the List members the following. And please, if you dislike politics and/or moral, skip what follows!!! Here comes the quote from a private mail sent by me: The next things you probably would not like to hear: It is not interesting, if Bush is honest or not. It is not interesting if he is clever or not, it is not even interesting, whether he knows, what he is doing or not. What is interesting is that the USA has divorced, separated itself, from the so called western ideals: they (the government of USA) accept torture (with a polished name), they have several concentration camps around the world (with a polished name of course), where real persons - like you or me - are kept indefinitely without any rights, without any justice, perhaps even tortured. Who knows what happens in these camps? There is no way to check that. They (the government) do not even care the international law or the Geneve conventions. So the USA (its government) has intentionally separated itself from the moral and values that used to make Europe and USA close friends. In my eyes USA belongs to the same gang with Russia, Pakistan, China, Israel, Egypt, etc. The human and civil rights are not important, only our military might means something, hell with the human rights and justice... [...] But perhaps you can now better understand, how the USA of today can be seen from outside? And I can assure you, this kind of attitude is VERY common througout the so called western world! At least in our Old Europe... :-( All the best and let us hope better times to the world! Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
