Re: [LyXWin Installer] new small version for testing
Hi Uwe & Angus, - I've never compiled LyX under Win. I'll try this if I have another compiler than MinGW. But I think that Michael Schmidt can help me here. I just returned from the US and I am trying to read through all those 600+ emails... Uwe, if you like to, I can provide you with fresh versions of LyX 1.3 and LyX 1.4 (with static Qt/Win included) on a regular basis. Unless I am on vacation, I can create 2 or 3 updates a week which should be more than you/we will actually need. Michael
Re: [LyXWin Installer] new small version for testing
On Tue, Jun 14, 2005 at 03:59:02PM +0200, Uwe Stöhr wrote: > I you've a new job congratulations. Aber irgendwas ist Dir verlorengegangen Andre'
Re: [LyXWin Installer] new small version for testing
On Tue, Jun 14, 2005 at 04:56:27PM +0100, Angus Leeming wrote: > Actually, you do realise that you don't need to compile the whole Qt > distribution? Looking at the Makefile in the top level qt directory: > > all: symlinks src-moc sub-src sub-tools sub-tutorial sub-examples > > It seems that you can stop after sub-src A 'make' in src should do as well, and tutorial and examples are best deleted immediately. The .pro file might need a corresponding adjustment, but all in all it should work (in contrast to various configure options...) Andre'
Re: [LyXWin Installer] new small version for testing - updated
Uwe Stöhr wrote: > But I still disable the "Launch LyX" option in the finish page. Because > if one uses it, LyX appears always in english. First if you restart LyX > it will be in the chosen language. Has anybody an idea why this happens. > Angus? No, I don't know. Perhaps you could set the LANG environment variable inside the program with putenv before launching LyX? Anyway, I think that the alternative suggestion of a lyx.cmd that sets LANG and then runs LyX is more elegant and more transparent to the user. > I know this is confusing. I want to change the button text to "Finish" > or "End" or better make it invisible/disabled. But I don't know how to > do this. That the installer exits is correct. I'll ask on the NSIS forum. -- Angus
Re: [LyXWin Installer] new small version for testing
Angus Leeming wrote: A, we have a lurker! Hi, Peter! I've waited for a good moment to jump out. H, but does LyX? Might do, but LyX makes much more heavy use of templates than Qt. Still, most of this is encapsulated by Boost and they do try and get things to work on Borland. I forgot that you also need the library file in addition to the dll. I don't know if the borland compiler could manage all the template stuff, but boost often tries to support also older compilers, so there is a chance. A. Magic! Here's my angus-configure.bat file. It's the same as yours, no? (Apart from the -fast option which won't affect the size of the resulting library, just the time taken to run configure (not make). set QTDIR=J:\MinSys\home\Angus\qt3 set MINGW=J:\MinGW set PATH=J:\MinSys\home\Angus\qt3\bin;J:\MinGW\bin;C:\WINDOWS\system32;C \WINDOWS set QMAKESPEC=win32-g++ configure.bat -verbose Yes, as I remember -release and -shared are default. -fast avoids the building of all the example makefiles. (try pconfigure.bat; you would be suprised!! :) ) Isn't this your tool to tell me how many weeks I will have to wait before compilation is complete? It doesn't actually speed up compilation at all, does it? Yes, it only shows the progress of the library compilation (it's a "spin off" when debugging bitmap stuff and playing with double buffering). It just counts the files in the obj dir and calculates the estimated remaining time. (Unfortunately I don't remember the parameter which boosts the clock speed to 1THz) :) Peter
Re: [LyXWin Installer] new small version for testing
Angus Leeming wrote: In other words, I think that the installer should lead the user through the installation. It shouldn't "just do it" for him. That's why I think a summary page at the beginning listing everything that LyX has found (or not found) that it can use would be a good thing. So I should move the summary page to the beginning? But then we have two info pages: One for the programs and one for the language. Isn't it enough to display all informations at the end as it is the case at the moment? All informations you requested are given there. Do you want me to maintain the installer? I can do that. Great. You've got a job! But then I need access to CVS and the ftp server. Actually, you do realise that you don't need to compile the whole Qt distribution? Looking at the Makefile in the top level qt directory: all: symlinks src-moc sub-src sub-tools sub-tutorial sub-examples It seems that you can stop after sub-src Good to know. But NOTE I spend some time the last week to the installer I WONT have that much time the next weeks - real life you know ;-) regards Uwe
Re: [LyXWin Installer] new small version for testing - updated
Asger Alstrup wrote: When I run it, it finds out that I lack LaTeX, Was this correct? I mean was LaTeX installed at this time or not. If it was installed, could you send me the registry path of your distribution where it stores the path to the latex.exe. At the moment the installer searches only for MiKTeX. We should also support fpTeX. > but it does not display any link or other information about where I can get it. See attached. Thanks for the bug report. The actual version: http://fkurth.de/uwest/LyX/Installer/lyx_setup_136proposal-v14.exe fixes this. It also reintroduced the feature that the installer waits until the configuration script is ready. But I still disable the "Launch LyX" option in the finish page. Because if one uses it, LyX appears always in english. First if you restart LyX it will be in the chosen language. Has anybody an idea why this happens. Angus? Clicking next just exits the installer. I know this is confusing. I want to change the button text to "Finish" or "End" or better make it invisible/disabled. But I don't know how to do this. That the installer exits is correct. thanks and regards Uwe
Re: [LyXWin Installer] new small version for testing
Peter Kümmel wrote: A, we have a lurker! Hi, Peter! > Angus Leeming wrote: >> Actually, you do realise that you don't need to compile the whole Qt >> distribution? Looking at the Makefile in the top level qt directory: >> >> all: symlinks src-moc sub-src sub-tools sub-tutorial sub-examples >> >> It seems that you can stop after sub-src > To get the library only on rebuiliding go to the qt-3/src > directory and and call: > > mingw32-make. > > Qt also compiles with the free borland compiler which is really a > speedup. H, but does LyX? Might do, but LyX makes much more heavy use of templates than Qt. Still, most of this is encapsulated by Boost and they do try and get things to work on Borland. >>>Angus could you give me information how you managed ti compile it. >>>I also noticed that my qt-m3.dll has 9MB and yours 6MB. So >>>something is going wrong. Whcih compiler do you use? > > Maybe the big versions contains debug symbols, configure with: > configure.bat -release -shared -fast A. Magic! Here's my angus-configure.bat file. It's the same as yours, no? (Apart from the -fast option which won't affect the size of the resulting library, just the time taken to run configure (not make). set QTDIR=J:\MinSys\home\Angus\qt3 set MINGW=J:\MinGW set PATH=J:\MinSys\home\Angus\qt3\bin;J:\MinGW\bin;C:\WINDOWS\system32;C \WINDOWS set QMAKESPEC=win32-g++ configure.bat -verbose > (try pconfigure.bat; you would be suprised!! :) ) Isn't this your tool to tell me how many weeks I will have to wait before compilation is complete? It doesn't actually speed up compilation at all, does it? -- Angus
Re: [LyXWin Installer] new small version for testing
Angus Leeming wrote: Actually, you do realise that you don't need to compile the whole Qt distribution? Looking at the Makefile in the top level qt directory: all: symlinks src-moc sub-src sub-tools sub-tutorial sub-examples It seems that you can stop after sub-src To get the library only on rebuiliding go to the qt-3/src directory and and call: mingw32-make. Qt also compiles with the free borland compiler which is really a speedup. Angus could you give me information how you managed ti compile it. I also noticed that my qt-m3.dll has 9MB and yours 6MB. So something is going wrong. Whcih compiler do you use? Maybe the big versions contains debug symbols, configure with: configure.bat -release -shared -fast (try pconfigure.bat; you would be suprised!! :) ) Peter
Re: [LyXWin Installer] new small version for testing
On Tuesday 14 June 2005 14:59, you wrote: > Angus Leeming wrote: > > Well, as I said to Jean-Marc earlier, I'm going to cut back on my > > LyX activities in the very near future. > > I hope this are good news for you. I you've a new job > congratulations. Nooo, I'm in the market for one ;-) > > nor agree with either of your views of how it should look. > > I'd like to hear your reasons. I think that the best solution can > only be found in a discussion. I hate it when interfaces are dumbed down. I'm not stupid but I may not be familiar with the field. With a little friendly help, I can get there. I think that's true of our target audience too and it's a guiding principle behind LyX's excellent documentation. In other words, I think that the installer should lead the user through the installation. It shouldn't "just do it" for him. That's why I think a summary page at the beginning listing everything that LyX has found (or not found) that it can use would be a good thing. The user is then in the position to only go to those pages that he wants to go to --- but he is in control. > > No, I'm not being grumpy; I'm pleased I've created something > > useful and I'm pleased that others are motivated enough to have > > their own opinions about it. Uwe, feel free to take it and run > > with it. > > Do you want me to maintain the installer? I can do that. Great. You've got a job! > But what I currently can't do is: > > - I can compile the qt-m3.dll but as I currently use MinGW it takes > 3 hours. I'll try to organize another compiler as this is > absolutely unacceptable. Sure. I share your pain, although not as badly. Actually, you do realise that you don't need to compile the whole Qt distribution? Looking at the Makefile in the top level qt directory: all: symlinks src-moc sub-src sub-tools sub-tutorial sub-examples It seems that you can stop after sub-src > Angus could you give me information how you managed ti compile it. > I also noticed that my qt-m3.dll has 9MB and yours 6MB. So > something is going wrong. Whcih compiler do you use? The mingw g++-3.4. My entire list of downloads: Dec 13 09:19 MSYS-1.0.10.exe Dec 13 08:59 MinGW-3.1.0-1.exe Dec 13 09:08 binutils-2.15.91-20040904-1.tar Dec 13 09:13 gcc-core-3.4.2-20040916-1.tar Dec 13 09:16 gcc-g++-3.4.2-20040916-1.tar Dec 13 09:00 mingw-runtime-3.5.tar Dec 13 09:02 mingw-utils-0.3.tar Dec 13 09:22 msys-autoconf-2.59.tar Dec 13 09:23 msys-automake-1.8.2.tar Dec 13 09:24 msys-libtool-1.5.tar Dec 13 09:29 msysDTK-1.0.1.exe Dec 13 09:04 w32api-3.1.tar My angus-make.bat file that I use to compile Qt/Win Free: set QTDIR=J:\MinSys\home\Angus\qt3 set MINGW=J:\MinGW set PATH=J:\MinSys\home\Angus\qt3\bin;J:\MinGW\bin;C: \WINDOWS\system32;C:\WINDOWS set QMAKESPEC=win32-g++ mingw32-make all Note that I could replace all here, as described above. > - I've never compiled LyX under Win. I'll try this if I have > another compiler than MinGW. I'm afraid that you'll need to compile with MinGW unless you jump through some hoops. Michael also compiles with MinGW, but he links statically against libqt. This does reduce his link times. If you want to jump through hoops, then you could compile with MSVC using a wrapper that translates g++ compiler commands into something understandable to MSVC. I attach Ruurd's code. Note that you'll need Cygwin to be installed to translate the paths from one format to the other (or hack the code). I've never tried it... > But I think that Michael Schmidt can help me here. > > So if you could send me an actual qt-m3.dll and lyx.exe from time > to time until I can do it myself, I think I can maintain the > installer. Sure. Or just post updates to the wiki site. I'm not going nowhere just yet. Angus wrapmsvc.tar.bz2 Description: application/tbz
Re: [LyXWin Installer] new small version for testing
Angus Leeming wrote: Well, as I said to Jean-Marc earlier, I'm going to cut back on my LyX activities in the very near future. I hope this are good news for you. I you've a new job congratulations. I think that now would be a good time to hand over the reigns for this installer thingie because, truly, I neither enjoyed creating it The installer script language is indeed ugly. Easy things are so complicated with it. > nor agree with either of your views of how it should look. I'd like to hear your reasons. I think that the best solution can only be found in a discussion. No, I'm not being grumpy; I'm pleased I've created something useful and I'm pleased that others are motivated enough to have their own opinions about it. Uwe, feel free to take it and run with it. Do you want me to maintain the installer? I can do that. But what I currently can't do is: - I can compile the qt-m3.dll but as I currently use MinGW it takes 3 hours. I'll try to organize another compiler as this is absolutely unacceptable. Angus could you give me information how you managed ti compile it. I also noticed that my qt-m3.dll has 9MB and yours 6MB. So something is going wrong. Whcih compiler do you use? - I've never compiled LyX under Win. I'll try this if I have another compiler than MinGW. But I think that Michael Schmidt can help me here. So if you could send me an actual qt-m3.dll and lyx.exe from time to time until I can do it myself, I think I can maintain the installer. All I ask is that I don't have to install your cut down packages if I don't want to. I implemented a solution for this. It is announced it in the message I send 15 min ago to the list. regards Uwe
Re: [LyXWin Installer] new small version for testing - updated
Uwe Stöhr wrote: I agree with you. Here my proposal: http://fkurth.de/uwest/LyX/Installer/lyx_setup_136proposal.exe When I run it, it finds out that I lack LaTeX, but it does not display any link or other information about where I can get it. See attached. Clicking next just exits the installer. Regards, Asger <>
Re: [LyXWin Installer] new small version for testing
Asger Alstrup wrote: > Angus Leeming wrote: >> Well, as I said to Jean-Marc earlier, I'm going to cut back on my LyX >> activities in the very near future. > > Good for you, and congratulations with the delivery to come! LOL. Thanks, Asger. Not sure that I'll be able to help much with the delivery bit though. -- Angus
Re: [LyXWin Installer] new small version for testing
Angus Leeming wrote: Well, as I said to Jean-Marc earlier, I'm going to cut back on my LyX activities in the very near future. Good for you, and congratulations with the delivery to come! Regards, Asger
Re: [LyXWin Installer] new small version for testing
Uwe Stöhr wrote: > Install the math-fonts automatically. It was a challenge but it is now implemented. The font installation should now work on XP, 2000, ME, and 98. I found some useful scripts in the NSIS forum but has to modyfy them to work with NSIS 2.06 and for special LyX purposes. I uploaded two versions: http://fkurth.de/uwest/LyX/Installer/lyx_setup_136small-v13.exe I tried this. It didn't tell me anything about fonts, so I guess it found that I had them installed already. Setting the LANG environment variable works. You really should upgrade lyx_path_prefix.C to the version in CVS, compile, install the .dll in NSIS/Plugins and then build the installer again. That way, the "Next" button to the final screen will be disabled until the configure script has completed. Thereafter, you'll be able to launch LyX from the final screen again. Angus
Re: [LyXWin Installer] new small version for testing
Asger Ottar Alstrup wrote: I agree with Uwe that your proposal is too complicated. I'm completely on his side in terms of making the complete installation process as simple and convenient as possible. I'm also all in favour of the bundled approach: The installer can include the minimal python, perl, imagemagick, etc. system, so the user only has to install miktex and ghostscript as additional installs. Well, as I said to Jean-Marc earlier, I'm going to cut back on my LyX activities in the very near future. I think that now would be a good time to hand over the reigns for this installer thingie because, truly, I neither enjoyed creating it nor agree with either of your views of how it should look. No, I'm not being grumpy; I'm pleased I've created something useful and I'm pleased that others are motivated enough to have their own opinions about it. Uwe, feel free to take it and run with it. All I ask is that I don't have to install your cut down packages if I don't want to. Regards, Angus
Re: [LyXWin Installer] new small version for testing
I agree with Uwe that your proposal is too complicated. I'm completely on his side in terms of making the complete installation process as simple and convenient as possible. I'm also all in favour of the bundled approach: The installer can include the minimal python, perl, imagemagick, etc. system, so the user only has to install miktex and ghostscript as additional installs. Yes, there is maintenance involved in keeping such a package up-to-date, and it will be fragile for a while until all missing pieces have been found, but there are lots and lots of Windows users, and some of those are bound to help out with keeping such a package bug free and up-to-date. Installing LyX should as be easy as 1-2-3: 0) First, in the background, detect which components exist in advance, and use those if they are suitable without even asking the user. 1) Present a checked list with simple names of things that the installer wants to install from the bundled lot it provides. Provide an "advanced" button, which allows the power users to choose between cygwin and ming, see the paths, choose the full packages instead of the small ones, and such. 2) Provide a checked list of pacakages that the installer will automatically download and run, for the two or three other packages, which we can not avoid inside the installer. These links point directly to a tested executable on our ftp-server, to make sure that the links do not become stale. Notice that it is important that this step is fully automatic: The average user has a hard time downloading and installing a package from, say, Sourceforge. 3) Launch LyX and be happy. The idea is that the user should not have to make any technical choices. Those are just mistakes waiting to happen. He just has to click Next a bunch of times, and things will just work out of the box. Ideally, it should be possible to run the installer in an automatic mode that also just works. Such a mode would also be a killer in big organisations, because then the IT department can just put that installer in the log-in script, and be happy. Yes, this approach has a much higher maintenance hassle: keeping the ftp-site up to date, fixing bugs in the bundle, and what not. But it's like what they say about math formulas in a book: Every equation in a book halves the sales. The same principle applies here, except that it is worse: Every technical decision reduces the number of users by a factor of 4. LyX is so easy to use that installation should not be a barrier. Look at the amount of feedback on the installer you've got now (and it hasn't even been announced anywhere): Among the thousands of non-technical users that will jump on this, we just need five or ten that are willing and able to lift the maintenance burden. And when they do that, we can lure them right into the lions nest: the LyX source code! Regards, Asger
Re: [LyXWin Installer] new small version for testing
I wrote: I think about to omit the install of imagemagick, as LyX uses only its convert.exe. I think it is possible... Sorry. Forget this. Of course convert.exe needs nearly all imagemagick dll's to be able to convert all the different image formats. Ruurds file repository is just the smallest possible version. Uwe
Re: [LyXWin Installer] new small version for testing
Angus Leeming wrote: Uwe, why don't you get Lars to give you CVS write access to development/Win32/packaging ? I'll ask him. But I still need some space to access test releases to testers. I've been thinking over Asger's suggestion on how best to present all these packages. I don't know what Asger said. Do you have a link to his post? Registry for their presence, we should be able to produce a first page something like: = Tools used by LyX LyX makes use of many other utilities. Some are required absolutely. Some will add functionality. Please check the boxes for those tools you'd like to play with more (wording to be 'improved' ;-)) - [x] A unix shell J:\MinSYS\bin\sh.exe [] PythonJ:\Python24\python.exe My aim is to make the install process as easy as possible. During the last year I introduced LyX to some friends - mostly average Win users. Because the install process was too complicated for some of them installed it. Also the Win install wiki page could confuse the user. The page begins with "1. Install the programs above into folders that contain no spaces in the name. Eg. C:\LyX (Ensure that you have admin permissions while installing, so that the programs are able to add themselves to the %;PATH%;.)" Ask an average Win user what a PATH is - he don't know! So do you think a Win user knows what a Unix shell is? Possibly some of them know what Unix is. But that's all. The same is for Python. As I linked the new 136pre to a friend I was asked why one has to install so many programs that he hasn't heard about: "Aber bei der alten Version musste man das nicht installieren!" In english: "But this mustn't be installed for the old version!" (he meant Ruurds version) That's why I tried to launch LyX with the stripped files. Now LyX's install is on the same level as for 1.3.5 and we can improve it to make it simpler. (The feedback on my version was very positive.) OK the user still needs to install MiKTeX , Imagemagick, and Ghostscript. I think about to omit the install of imagemagick, as LyX uses only its convert.exe. I think it is possible, I only have to check which files are needed for convert's interaction with ghostscript for pdf and eps files. But I think I'll manage this. Omit the installation of imagemagick avoids also problems: Imagemagick releases very often and somtimes with obvious errors. A stripped version of convert.exe can be tested so that all users use the same error free version. [] ImageMagick J:\Program Files\ImageMagick-Q16\convert.exe I was asked very often: "What does Q16 mean and should I install the "static" or the dll-version?" I think if we let the user install imagemagick we should recommend Q16-dll. If we use a stripped Q16 version we can omit the option "-depth 8" in the call of convert in convertDefault.sh. At the moment the users with Q16 cannot benefit from the possible high resolution. Thereafter, the Unix shell page would be something like: = Unix shell LyX needs a unix shell environment to run a number of important scripts. - [x] Use MinSYS [] Use Cygwin [] Install LyX's minimal shell environment [] Download MinSYS [] Download Cygwin [ J:\MinSYS\bin\sh.exe ] [...] = That's what I mean: Only experts know what MinSYS and Cygwin is, so how should the user decide what is necessary. What do you think? Here my proposal: I like your installer as it is. Only the labels like "Path to latex.exe" confuses some users. We should check at first what programs are yet installed. If some are missing we show a page with the install links to the programs and say e.g.: "Please install the following 2 programs first: LaTeX: Link to MiKTeX Python: Link to Python After you have installed the programs above relaunch this installer." Then the installer is finished. This is a clear solution. The user needn't to decide between program versions a can install the programs directly only a few clicks away. Most users like it if an installation can be done with only a few clicks. This will also avoid that the user is bothered with unnecessary informations: At the moment the user is informed that the latex.exe is in C:\... this doesn't matter as LyX has found it. So there is no need for this info. OK enough for now with my sermon. "My mother is able to work with this program, so she should also be able to install it." best regards Uwe p.s. I'm very interested if the automatic font installation works for you.
Re: [LyXWin Installer] new small version for testing
Uwe Stöhr wrote: > Hello Angus and volunteer installer testers, > I just uploaded an improved version of the installer to: > http://fkurth.de/uwest/LyX/Installer/ Woo! You've been busy! Uwe, why don't you get Lars to give you CVS write access to development/Win32/packaging ? That way you can merge your version into the 'official' one. I've been thinking over Asger's suggestion on how best to present all these packages. Given that the first thing we do is interrogate the Registry for their presence, we should be able to produce a first page something like: = Tools used by LyX LyX makes use of many other utilities. Some are required absolutely. Some will add functionality. Please check the boxes for those tools you'd like to play with more (wording to be 'improved' ;-)) - [x] A unix shell J:\MinSYS\bin\sh.exe [] PythonJ:\Python24\python.exe . . . [] ImageMagick J:\Program Files\ImageMagick-Q16\convert.exe = The idea being that only those pages that are [x]-ed will be shown as the user moves through the pages of the installer. If the installer finds a package, then that page will be unchecked, although you can always [x] it manually. Thereafter, the Unix shell page would be something like: = Unix shell LyX needs a unix shell environment to run a number of important scripts. - [x] Use MinSYS [] Use Cygwin [] Install LyX's minimal shell environment [] Download MinSYS [] Download Cygwin [ J:\MinSYS\bin\sh.exe ] [...] = What do you think? -- Angus
