Re: [rework docs] reasons, plans, questions
Hi Uwe, I would rework the Tutorial and the UserGuide. The UserGuide will also have a short section about needed programs and install issues for the platforms Linux/Unix, Mac and Win. Hmmm... Does this make sense? If the user is able to read the UserGuide, he already managed to install LyX. Installation issues should be described in the README files provided with the source code. I started once with a new layout for the UserGuide in koma-script book format. As koma-script is no longer part of the default installation of VTeX and MikTeX, I returned back to the standard book class. Very interesting. Was komascript replaced by some new classes? Publishing a book could help to reach more people and could possibly help to pay the bills for one of the next developer meeting. What do you think about it? Great idea, in principle. However, I wonder whether the audience is broad enough. Has anybody ever counted to the number of LyX downloads? Do we have 100, 1.000, 10.000 or even more users? I changed the menu names in the documentation to the one used in LyX QT 1.3.x. I hope that they are the same as in LyX XForms. If this isn't the case, we should make them as uniform as possible for all GUIs. LyX 1.4 support the branch inset concept. You can put different texts in different branches, e.g. one branch for XForms and one branch for Qt. However, personally, I think it is best to stick to the Qt frontend only. IIRC even Angus admits that Qt is the GUI of the future. What I did/do: The rework of the Introduction is done. I currently working on the sections describing all menus and icon buttons. Please note that LyX 1.4 will look _substantially_ different from LyX 1.3. IMHO you should concentrate on LyX 1.4 and leave LyX 1.3 as it is. Kind regards, Michael
Re: [rework docs] questions part two
I wrote: The menu Navigate - Refs seems to be broken. I expect that this menu let me jump from cross- and citation-reference to the next, but nothing happens. Sorry. The menu works., but it doesn't jump from reference to reference. It jumps from one label to the next. So the menu name is a bit confusing. It should better have the name Label. regards Uwe
Re: [rework docs] reasons, plans, questions
Andre Poenitz wrote: [...] As koma-script is no longer part of the default installation of VTeX and MikTeX, [Why btw? Sounds like a strange decision ...] The author of koma-script complained about the inclusion of his package to MikTeX. MikTeX has a different (but very user friendly) package handling in comparison to teTeX that the MikTeX people wouldn't change. Therefore MikTeX comes with a slightly older version of koma-script (because the old license of the package allows it) but not in the smallest (basic) installation. I don't know what happend for VTeX. regards Uwe
Re: [rework docs] reasons, plans, questions
Georg Baum wrote: I see one problem: What happens to the 1.4 documentation? At some point one would need to merge your changes back. Did you consider to leave 1.3 as is and modify 1.4 instead? This would avoid some additional work. IMHO we should not put too much effort in 1.3 anymore but concentrate on getting 1.4 ready. I started with the UserGuide found in the CVS under lib/docs. I thaught it is the version for LyX 1.4. If not where can I get the right one? I don't think that install issues belong into the user guide. IMHO they would be better put in an installation manual (that all users of prepackaged versions like the application bundle on Mac or .rpm, .deb etc can ignore). Or maybe put the install issues into an appendix. You are right. I wrote a section about installing under win and it takes only a half page. That should be enough. A detailed description could be indeed added to a special install manual. regards Uwe
Re: [rework docs] reasons, plans, questions
Michael Schmitt wrote: The UserGuide will also have a short section about needed programs and install issues for the platforms Linux/Unix, Mac and Win. Hmmm... Does this make sense? If the user is able to read the UserGuide, he already managed to install LyX. Installation issues should be described in the README files provided with the source code. Of course you are right. I want only a _short_ section with the programs needed for proper work (a half page should be enough). I noticed that some users managed to install LyX but forgot to install a pdf-viewer or ghostscript. Publishing a book could help to reach more people and could possibly help to pay the bills for one of the next developer meeting. What do you think about it? Great idea, in principle. However, I wonder whether the audience is broad enough. Has anybody ever counted to the number of LyX downloads? Do we have 100, 1.000, 10.000 or even more users? Interesting question. But the audience is bigger than the counted downloads from lyx.org. All LyX and Linux users I know use the version shipped with the Linux distribution. I know that publishing a book is not as easy as it seems and is not the primary goal for now. I came on the idea by Dante's book series. They published the koma-script manual and a beautiful book about PStricks. The latter is written by Herbet Voss. I bought them because they are very cheap and a printed book is easier to read than an online version. Please note that LyX 1.4 will look _substantially_ different from LyX 1.3. IMHO you should concentrate on LyX 1.4 and leave LyX 1.3 as it is. This is what I want. But I found only the old UserGuide in CVS. As I'm using Windows (there are many different reasons) I wasn't able to compile a CVS version. If Angus completed the support for LyX under Win I could try it again. Or Someone could send me a CVS binary. This binary needn't to be usable, only that I know how it looks. BTW. If LyX 1.4 is such a big step to the future why don't we name it LyX 2.0? Btw2 Is it planned to release LyX 1.4 with a GTK GUI? regards Uwe
Re: [rework docs] questions part two
Georg Baum wrote: As I use LyXWin, could somebody please send me his file LaTeX-Configuration? This menu is broken in LyXWin and I need it to describe it in the docs. Thanks. I guess you don't mean the file that you can get via Help-LaTeX Configuration? No I mean exactly this one. BTW, this document is generated from lib/doc/lib/doc/LaTeXConfig.lyx.in in the source package. Thanks. I managed to have my own version know. There is a little bug: LyX searches for the obsolete package a4wide. As described in the file l2tabu, that can be downloaded from CTAN, a4wide shouldn't be used. I want the example and template LyX files that comes with the beamer package to be added to LyX CVS. These files works very well and the author of course allows this. Is this possible or are there some I don't think that it is worth the effort: 1. The need for updates. Including the files makes only sense if they are always up to date. Who is going to do that? The layout and example files needn't to be changed when beamer comes up with a new version. I tested the actual files hardly and improved them together with the beamer author, so that they are stable since beamer 2 (the actual one is beamer 3.1). 2. More effort for .rpm and .deb creators. At least debian has a latex-beamer package that contains the latex and lyx files. If lyx would also contain the files, there would be a conflict, so they must be excluded from the .deb package. Why that? All we have to do, is to copy the files to the folders lyx/share/lyx/layouts etc. So why do files in different folders cause trouble? The LyX files of the beamer package are placed by default in tex/latex/beamer/lyx but they are senseless there; LaTeX doesn't register them and can't take up something with. If a LyX user wants to use beamer, he has to copy the files from tex/latex/beamer/lyx to lyx/share/lyx/ manually. So I thaught we can do this for the user by deliver the files with the Lyx package. regards uwe
Re: [rework docs] reasons, plans, questions
Uwe Stöhr wrote: Andre Poenitz wrote: [...] As koma-script is no longer part of the default installation of VTeX and MikTeX, [Why btw? Sounds like a strange decision ...] The author of koma-script complained about the inclusion of his package to MikTeX. no, Markus never complained, that his package is part of miktex. He doesn't like it, when his distribution is split into several parts, just as MiKTeX does. MikTeX has a different (but very user friendly) package handling in comparison to teTeX that the MikTeX people wouldn't change. the package handling of MiKTeX is not user-friendly! is is _better_ than nothing, as for teTeX, but MiKTeX ghandles only packages, which are part of the MiKTeX base, other packages must be installed by the user. The problem is not KOMAscript and not MiKTeX, the problem are the two maintainers ... Therefore MikTeX comes with a slightly older version of koma-script (because the old license of the package allows it) but not in the smallest (basic) installation. I don't know what happend for VTeX. VTeX has nothing to do with MiKTeX ... Herbert -- http://TeXnik.de/ http://PSTricks.de/ ftp://ftp.dante.de/tex-archive/info/math/voss/Voss-Mathmode.pdf http://www.dante.de/faq/de-tex-faq/ http://www.tex.ac.uk/cgi-bin/texfaq2html?introduction=yes
Re: [rework docs] reasons, plans, questions
On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 08:35:11PM +0100, Uwe St?hr wrote: The UserGuide will also have a short section about needed programs and install issues for the platforms Linux/Unix, Mac and Win. IMO, whilst such docs would be great, the User Guide is the wrong place for it. I'd prefer such stuff to be on the website / wiki, plus a plain ASCII file in the tarball regards john
Re: [rework docs] reasons, plans, questions
Am Sonntag, 9. Januar 2005 15:34 schrieb Uwe Stöhr: I started with the UserGuide found in the CVS under lib/docs. I thaught it is the version for LyX 1.4. If not where can I get the right one? This is correct if it is the HEAD branch. I thought you used 1.3 because you wrote that you wanted to update the 1.3 documentation originally. Georg
Re: [rework docs] questions part two
Am Sonntag, 9. Januar 2005 16:26 schrieb Uwe Stöhr: The layout and example files needn't to be changed when beamer comes up with a new version. I tested the actual files hardly and improved them together with the beamer author, so that they are stable since beamer 2 (the actual one is beamer 3.1). The fact that it was like that in the past does not mean that it will not be necessary in the future, but form what you say I guess it is at least unlikely. 2. More effort for .rpm and .deb creators. At least debian has a latex-beamer package that contains the latex and lyx files. If lyx would also contain the files, there would be a conflict, so they must be excluded from the .deb package. Why that? All we have to do, is to copy the files to the folders lyx/share/lyx/layouts etc. So why do files in different folders cause trouble? Because they are not in different folders. The debian package latex-beamer (in .deb format) installs them (ready for use) under /usr/share/lyx. I don't know if there exist .rpm packages for latex-beamer, but if they do, and if they are packaged carefully, they'll do the same. So all a user has to do is to install both latex-beamer and lyx, and he has everything he needs. If the lyx package would contain the beamer files, latex-beamer and lyx would not be installable at the same time. Therefore the packagers would need to tweak the lyx install process to exclude the beamer files. Of course the situation changes if lyx was the primary source for the files and they were not contained in latex-beamer anymore. manually. So I thaught we can do this for the user by deliver the files with the Lyx package. I understood that. In fact, I don't really care very much, but I only wanted to make clear that this would also create more work at other places. Georg
Re: [rework docs] reasons, plans, questions
Andre Poenitz wrote: Indeed. Having it in the UserGuide only serves people masochistic enough to read it either as .lyx in a text editor before installation or after installation to see what might have sped up the installation... You are right, I dropped this now. thanks Uwe
Re: [rework docs] reasons, plans, questions
Hi Uwe, I would rework the Tutorial and the UserGuide. The UserGuide will also have a short section about needed programs and install issues for the platforms Linux/Unix, Mac and Win. Hmmm... Does this make sense? If the user is able to read the UserGuide, he already managed to install LyX. Installation issues should be described in the README files provided with the source code. I started once with a new layout for the UserGuide in koma-script book format. As koma-script is no longer part of the default installation of VTeX and MikTeX, I returned back to the standard book class. Very interesting. Was komascript replaced by some new classes? Publishing a book could help to reach more people and could possibly help to pay the bills for one of the next developer meeting. What do you think about it? Great idea, in principle. However, I wonder whether the audience is broad enough. Has anybody ever counted to the number of LyX downloads? Do we have 100, 1.000, 10.000 or even more users? I changed the menu names in the documentation to the one used in LyX QT 1.3.x. I hope that they are the same as in LyX XForms. If this isn't the case, we should make them as uniform as possible for all GUIs. LyX 1.4 support the "branch inset " concept. You can put different texts in different branches, e.g. one branch for XForms and one branch for Qt. However, personally, I think it is best to stick to the Qt frontend only. IIRC even Angus admits that Qt is the GUI of the future. What I did/do: The rework of the Introduction is done. I currently working on the sections describing all menus and icon buttons. Please note that LyX 1.4 will look _substantially_ different from LyX 1.3. IMHO you should concentrate on LyX 1.4 and leave LyX 1.3 as it is. Kind regards, Michael
Re: [rework docs] questions part two
I wrote: The menu Navigate -> Refs seems to be broken. I expect that this menu let me jump from cross- and citation-reference to the next, but nothing happens. Sorry. The menu works., but it doesn't jump from reference to reference. It jumps from one label to the next. So the menu name is a bit confusing. It should better have the name "Label". regards Uwe
Re: [rework docs] reasons, plans, questions
Andre Poenitz wrote: [...] As koma-script is no longer part of the default installation of VTeX and MikTeX, [Why btw? Sounds like a strange decision ...] The author of koma-script complained about the inclusion of his package to MikTeX. MikTeX has a different (but very user friendly) package handling in comparison to teTeX that the MikTeX people wouldn't change. Therefore MikTeX comes with a slightly older version of koma-script (because the old license of the package allows it) but not in the smallest (basic) installation. I don't know what happend for VTeX. regards Uwe
Re: [rework docs] reasons, plans, questions
Georg Baum wrote: I see one problem: What happens to the 1.4 documentation? At some point one would need to merge your changes back. Did you consider to leave 1.3 as is and modify 1.4 instead? This would avoid some additional work. IMHO we should not put too much effort in 1.3 anymore but concentrate on getting 1.4 ready. I started with the UserGuide found in the CVS under lib/docs. I thaught it is the version for LyX 1.4. If not where can I get the right one? I don't think that install issues belong into the user guide. IMHO they would be better put in an installation manual (that all users of prepackaged versions like the application bundle on Mac or .rpm, .deb etc can ignore). Or maybe put the install issues into an appendix. You are right. I wrote a section about installing under win and it takes only a half page. That should be enough. A detailed description could be indeed added to a special install manual. regards Uwe
Re: [rework docs] reasons, plans, questions
Michael Schmitt wrote: The UserGuide will also have a short section about needed programs and install issues for the platforms Linux/Unix, Mac and Win. Hmmm... Does this make sense? If the user is able to read the UserGuide, he already managed to install LyX. Installation issues should be described in the README files provided with the source code. Of course you are right. I want only a _short_ section with the programs needed for proper work (a half page should be enough). I noticed that some users managed to install LyX but forgot to install a pdf-viewer or ghostscript. Publishing a book could help to reach more people and could possibly help to pay the bills for one of the next developer meeting. What do you think about it? Great idea, in principle. However, I wonder whether the audience is broad enough. Has anybody ever counted to the number of LyX downloads? Do we have 100, 1.000, 10.000 or even more users? Interesting question. But the audience is bigger than the counted downloads from lyx.org. All LyX and Linux users I know use the version shipped with the Linux distribution. I know that publishing a book is not as easy as it seems and is not the primary goal for now. I came on the idea by Dante's book series. They published the koma-script manual and a beautiful book about PStricks. The latter is written by Herbet Voss. I bought them because they are very cheap and a printed book is easier to read than an online version. Please note that LyX 1.4 will look _substantially_ different from LyX 1.3. IMHO you should concentrate on LyX 1.4 and leave LyX 1.3 as it is. This is what I want. But I found only the old UserGuide in CVS. As I'm using Windows (there are many different reasons) I wasn't able to compile a CVS version. If Angus completed the support for LyX under Win I could try it again. Or Someone could send me a CVS binary. This binary needn't to be usable, only that I know how it looks. BTW. If LyX 1.4 is such a big step to the future why don't we name it LyX 2.0? Btw2 Is it planned to release LyX 1.4 with a GTK GUI? regards Uwe
Re: [rework docs] questions part two
Georg Baum wrote: As I use LyXWin, could somebody please send me his file "LaTeX-Configuration"? This menu is broken in LyXWin and I need it to describe it in the docs. Thanks. I guess you don't mean the file that you can get via Help->LaTeX Configuration? No I mean exactly this one. BTW, this document is generated from lib/doc/lib/doc/LaTeXConfig.lyx.in in the source package. Thanks. I managed to have my own version know. There is a little bug: LyX searches for the obsolete package "a4wide". As described in the file "l2tabu", that can be downloaded from CTAN, a4wide shouldn't be used. I want the example and template LyX files that comes with the beamer package to be added to LyX CVS. These files works very well and the author of course allows this. Is this possible or are there some I don't think that it is worth the effort: 1. The need for updates. Including the files makes only sense if they are always up to date. Who is going to do that? The layout and example files needn't to be changed when beamer comes up with a new version. I tested the actual files hardly and improved them together with the beamer author, so that they are stable since beamer 2 (the actual one is beamer 3.1). 2. More effort for .rpm and .deb creators. At least debian has a latex-beamer package that contains the latex and lyx files. If lyx would also contain the files, there would be a conflict, so they must be excluded from the .deb package. Why that? All we have to do, is to copy the files to the folders lyx/share/lyx/layouts etc. So why do files in different folders cause trouble? The LyX files of the beamer package are placed by default in tex/latex/beamer/lyx but they are "senseless" there; LaTeX doesn't register them and can't take up something with. If a LyX user wants to use beamer, he has to copy the files from tex/latex/beamer/lyx to lyx/share/lyx/ manually. So I thaught we can do this for the user by deliver the files with the Lyx package. regards uwe
Re: [rework docs] reasons, plans, questions
Uwe Stöhr wrote: Andre Poenitz wrote: [...] As koma-script is no longer part of the default installation of VTeX and MikTeX, [Why btw? Sounds like a strange decision ...] The author of koma-script complained about the inclusion of his package to MikTeX. no, Markus never complained, that his package is part of miktex. He doesn't like it, when his distribution is split into several parts, just as MiKTeX does. MikTeX has a different (but very user friendly) package handling in comparison to teTeX that the MikTeX people wouldn't change. the package handling of MiKTeX is not user-friendly! is is _better_ than nothing, as for teTeX, but MiKTeX ghandles only packages, which are part of the MiKTeX base, other packages must be installed by the user. The problem is not KOMAscript and not MiKTeX, the problem are the two maintainers ... Therefore MikTeX comes with a slightly older version of koma-script (because the old license of the package allows it) but not in the smallest (basic) installation. I don't know what happend for VTeX. VTeX has nothing to do with MiKTeX ... Herbert -- http://TeXnik.de/ http://PSTricks.de/ ftp://ftp.dante.de/tex-archive/info/math/voss/Voss-Mathmode.pdf http://www.dante.de/faq/de-tex-faq/ http://www.tex.ac.uk/cgi-bin/texfaq2html?introduction=yes
Re: [rework docs] reasons, plans, questions
On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 08:35:11PM +0100, Uwe St?hr wrote: > The UserGuide will also have a short section about needed programs > and install issues for the platforms Linux/Unix, Mac and Win. IMO, whilst such docs would be great, the User Guide is the wrong place for it. I'd prefer such stuff to be on the website / wiki, plus a plain ASCII file in the tarball regards john
Re: [rework docs] reasons, plans, questions
Am Sonntag, 9. Januar 2005 15:34 schrieb Uwe Stöhr: > I started with the UserGuide found in the CVS under lib/docs. I thaught > it is the version for LyX 1.4. If not where can I get the right one? This is correct if it is the HEAD branch. I thought you used 1.3 because you wrote that you wanted to update the 1.3 documentation originally. Georg
Re: [rework docs] questions part two
Am Sonntag, 9. Januar 2005 16:26 schrieb Uwe Stöhr: > The layout and example files needn't to be changed when beamer comes up > with a new version. I tested the actual files hardly and improved them > together with the beamer author, so that they are stable since beamer 2 > (the actual one is beamer 3.1). The fact that it was like that in the past does not mean that it will not be necessary in the future, but form what you say I guess it is at least unlikely. > > 2. More effort for .rpm and .deb creators. At least debian has a > > latex-beamer package that contains the latex and lyx files. If lyx would > > also contain the files, there would be a conflict, so they must be > > excluded from the .deb package. > > Why that? All we have to do, is to copy the files to the folders > lyx/share/lyx/layouts etc. So why do files in different folders cause > trouble? Because they are not in different folders. The debian package latex-beamer (in .deb format) installs them (ready for use) under /usr/share/lyx. I don't know if there exist .rpm packages for latex-beamer, but if they do, and if they are packaged carefully, they'll do the same. So all a user has to do is to install both latex-beamer and lyx, and he has everything he needs. If the lyx package would contain the beamer files, latex-beamer and lyx would not be installable at the same time. Therefore the packagers would need to tweak the lyx install process to exclude the beamer files. Of course the situation changes if lyx was the primary source for the files and they were not contained in latex-beamer anymore. > manually. So I thaught we can do this for the user by deliver the files > with the Lyx package. I understood that. In fact, I don't really care very much, but I only wanted to make clear that this would also create more work at other places. Georg
Re: [rework docs] reasons, plans, questions
On Sat, Jan 08, 2005 at 08:35:11PM +0100, Uwe Stöhr wrote: > Plans: I would rework the Tutorial and the UserGuide. [...] I don't think anybody is going to stop you. Not me at least. > But I want to delete platform specifig stuff like "Configuring the X > keyboard" etc. and ironic comments. (These comments are often funny but > shouldn't be part of a manual.) If they are really funny you could leave them in. As a reality check you might ask one of the regular readers from the Western Islands (where the Pound is still a Pound...). > [...] As koma-script is no longer part of the default installation of > VTeX and MikTeX, [Why btw? Sounds like a strange decision ...] > But if the rework is done, I want to merge the manual files to a > printable koma-script book file using all layout tricks, so that it can > be published as a real book. (I wondered why there is no book about LyX > available.) Publishing a book could help to reach more people and could > possibly help to pay the bills for one of the next developer meeting. > What do you think about it? Not bad. > Questions: > While working on the docs, many questions came in my mind that I would > ask in several other messages to this list. I hope someone can help me. I am not reading lyx-doc. Should I? Andre'
Re: [rework docs] reasons, plans, questions
Andre Poenitz wrote: Indeed. Having it in the UserGuide only serves people masochistic enough to read it either as .lyx in a text editor before installation or after installation to see what might have sped up the installation... You are right, I dropped this now. thanks Uwe
