Re: Formatting numbered equations
On 20 April 2010 18:17, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 06:06:57PM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: >> These are contrived examples. > > I'm pretty sure that all the examples in Fowler are not contrived > examples: they're real ones from real texts. And it's not as though > Fowler wasn't pretty keen on clarity and elegance in prose. > If not contrived, then cherry-picked. Comma usage is no different than any other tool in writing: sometimes the author is presented with a corner case and must either risk ambiguity or revise his phrasing. >> In every case the writer could reword >> the sentence to remove the ambiguity, as I demonstrated in an earlier >> post. > > Sure, you can always rewrite a sentence in a way less idiomatic in > order to avoid the problem. Alternatively, you could do the sensible > thing and use a comma to avoid ambiguity in an otherwise perfectly > normal English idiom. Which of the two choices is the sensible one depends on the situation. I agree that proper usage of the commas could often be the sensible choice. > Enumerations are ubiquitous, and it's not > unusual for items to be enumerated already to have embedded > conjunctions. > I do not find it unusual. Rather, I find that many authors (or writers, or journalists, or bloggers) do not take the time to proofread for ambiguity. It borders on the irresponsible. >> The problem is not the commas, the problem is the desire to find >> ambiguity and then to place blame. > > I don't see who it is that's supposed to be placing blame here. > Those who insist that there is a problem with the rules of grammar. The literature should not present the situation as a problem, rather, unambiguity and methods to deal with ambiguity should be taught. >> A similar example for capitalization: > > No, these are not similar to the obviously common case of having > conjunctions in the names of firms, in the way we refer to couples, > and so on. Correct. They are similar in the sense that they are examples of ambiguity which could be eliminated by a simple rephrasing of the content. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com
Re: Formatting numbered equations
On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 06:06:57PM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote: > These are contrived examples. I'm pretty sure that all the examples in Fowler are not contrived examples: they're real ones from real texts. And it's not as though Fowler wasn't pretty keen on clarity and elegance in prose. > In every case the writer could reword > the sentence to remove the ambiguity, as I demonstrated in an earlier > post. Sure, you can always rewrite a sentence in a way less idiomatic in order to avoid the problem. Alternatively, you could do the sensible thing and use a comma to avoid ambiguity in an otherwise perfectly normal English idiom. Enumerations are ubiquitous, and it's not unusual for items to be enumerated already to have embedded conjunctions. > The problem is not the commas, the problem is the desire to find > ambiguity and then to place blame. I don't see who it is that's supposed to be placing blame here. > A similar example for capitalization: No, these are not similar to the obviously common case of having conjunctions in the names of firms, in the way we refer to couples, and so on. "Jack and Jill" can refer to two individuals or to the couple "Jack and Jill"; while context sometimes makes the intent plain, in an enumeration with other conjunctions it might not be. A -- Andrew Sullivan a...@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc.
Re: Formatting numbered equations
On 20 April 2010 17:12, Andrew Sullivan wrote: > On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 01:57:13PM +, Paul Rubin wrote: >> AFAIK "A, B and C" is the predominant usage in the U.S. (where, given the >> state >> of our educational system, we're lucky if we get the first comma). That's >> what I >> was taught (in New York) (after the American Revolution). Can't speak for >> the >> Brits, but perhaps they use the second comma. They certainly seem fond of >> extra >> vowels. > > My Gowers edition of Fowler discusses this. Fowler seems to think > that the main point is to avoid ambiguity, so that you normally > punctuate "A, B and C", but need a comma in some cases. The text > concedes, however, that some people prefer to put the comma every > time, for consistency, since it's sometimes needed to avoid ambiguity. > This appears to be left as a matter of taste. (The reason not to do > it, of course, is that in an enumeration the comma really stands for > "and", so to add a comma before the "and" would be otiose.) > > Examples of ambiguity (again from Fowler): > > "Tenders were submitted by John Brown, Cammel Laird, Vickers, and > Harland and Wolff." Without the comma after Vickers, you wouldn't > know that the last firm to submit was "Harland and Wolff". > > "The smooth grey of the beech stem, the silky texture of the birch, > and the rugged pine." Here, without the comma after birch, it would > read as though both the birch and the rugged pine have a silky > texture. > > If you think that the ambiguous cases like those above are common > enough, and you want a consistent rule, then you should put the comma > after B. Otherwise, you should only use the comma when you actually > need it (and A, B and C would be the right way in that case). Isn't > it nice to have rules that start with "it depends"? > > A These are contrived examples. In every case the writer could reword the sentence to remove the ambiguity, as I demonstrated in an earlier post. The problem is not the commas, the problem is the desire to find ambiguity and then to place blame. It is childish, authors who engage in such practices are not wise for their ability to convey meaning, they are wise for their ability to draw attention to their own egos. A similar example for capitalization: I once helped my uncle Jack off a horse. I once helped my uncle jack off a horse. Or for pronunciation: He asked for a new display. He asked far a nudist play. -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com Please CC me if you want to be sure that I read your message. I do not read all list mail.
Re: Formatting numbered equations
On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 01:57:13PM +, Paul Rubin wrote: > AFAIK "A, B and C" is the predominant usage in the U.S. (where, given the > state > of our educational system, we're lucky if we get the first comma). That's > what I > was taught (in New York) (after the American Revolution). Can't speak for the > Brits, but perhaps they use the second comma. They certainly seem fond of > extra > vowels. My Gowers edition of Fowler discusses this. Fowler seems to think that the main point is to avoid ambiguity, so that you normally punctuate "A, B and C", but need a comma in some cases. The text concedes, however, that some people prefer to put the comma every time, for consistency, since it's sometimes needed to avoid ambiguity. This appears to be left as a matter of taste. (The reason not to do it, of course, is that in an enumeration the comma really stands for "and", so to add a comma before the "and" would be otiose.) Examples of ambiguity (again from Fowler): "Tenders were submitted by John Brown, Cammel Laird, Vickers, and Harland and Wolff." Without the comma after Vickers, you wouldn't know that the last firm to submit was "Harland and Wolff". "The smooth grey of the beech stem, the silky texture of the birch, and the rugged pine." Here, without the comma after birch, it would read as though both the birch and the rugged pine have a silky texture. If you think that the ambiguous cases like those above are common enough, and you want a consistent rule, then you should put the comma after B. Otherwise, you should only use the comma when you actually need it (and A, B and C would be the right way in that case). Isn't it nice to have rules that start with "it depends"? A -- Andrew Sullivan a...@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc.
Re: Formatting numbered equations
Dotan Cohen writes: > > I have always understood this as: > American English: A, B, and C > British English: A, B and C > AFAIK "A, B and C" is the predominant usage in the U.S. (where, given the state of our educational system, we're lucky if we get the first comma). That's what I was taught (in New York) (after the American Revolution). Can't speak for the Brits, but perhaps they use the second comma. They certainly seem fond of extra vowels. /Paul
Re: Formatting numbered equations
> "The meal consisted of soup, salad, and macaroni and cheese." "The meal consisted of macaroni and cheese, soup, and salad." Or, if the order is important: "The meal consisted of soup, salad, and macaroni & cheese." > "To my parents, Ayn Rand and God." "To Ayn Rand, my parents, and God." Or, if the order is important: "To my parents, Ayn Rand and to God." -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com Please CC me if you want to be sure that I read your message. I do not read all list mail.
Re: Formatting numbered equations
I have always understood this as: American English: A, B, and C British English: A, B and C -- Dotan Cohen http://bido.com http://what-is-what.com Please CC me if you want to be sure that I read your message. I do not read all list mail.
Re: Formatting numbered equations
On 04/19/2010 04:57 PM, Marshall Feldman wrote: Here's an example of what the CMS is talking about: "The meal consisted of soup, salad, and macaroni and cheese." Of course, the better known case is the panda, who eats, shoots and leaves. rh
Re: Formatting numbered equations
On Apr 19, 2010, at 4:18 PM, Uwe Stöhr wrote: Am 19.04.2010 22:57, schrieb Marshall Feldman: (By the way in English there is no comma before the "and" if the part after the "and" is the last enumeration in a sentence; like in "A, B, C and D are letters.") The following comes from the /Chicago Manual of Style/, 15th ed., section 6.18: When a conjunction joins the last two elements in a series, a comma -- known as the serial or series comma or the Oxford comma -- should appear before the conjunction. Chicago strongly recommends this widely practiced usage, blessed by Fowler and other authorities (see bibliog. 1.2), since it prevents ambiguity. Here's an example of what the CMS is talking about: "The meal consisted of soup, salad, and macaroni and cheese." I was saying the same. In your example there must be a comma before the first "and" because there is a further "and" in the last course. In your formulas case you have only 3 courses: (1) (2) and (3) so that (1) (2) , and (3) would be wrong, because there is only one course behind the "and" and there is no further "and" inside the last course. I recently had the same discussion with our English LyX manual proof reader who's working for a publishing company. regards Uwe The advice given by the Chicago Manual of Style does not depend on there being a further "and" in the last course. To reduce the chance of ambiguity, they recommend inserting the Oxford comma whenever "a conjunction joins the last two elements in a series." Here's a humorous example in a book dedication (from wikipedia): To my parents, Ayn Rand and God. To my parents, Ayn Rand, and God. But the Oxford comma can also introduce ambiguity: My mother, Ayn Rand, and God. In the punctuation world, there's no general agreement on the use of the Oxford comma, just various organizations going one way of the other. Bruce
Re: Formatting numbered equations
Am 19.04.2010 22:57, schrieb Marshall Feldman: (By the way in English there is no comma before the "and" if the part after the "and" is the last enumeration in a sentence; like in "A, B, C and D are letters.") The following comes from the /Chicago Manual of Style/, 15th ed., section 6.18: When a conjunction joins the last two elements in a series, a comma -- known as the serial or series comma or the Oxford comma -- should appear before the conjunction. Chicago strongly recommends this widely practiced usage, blessed by Fowler and other authorities (see bibliog. 1.2), since it prevents ambiguity. Here's an example of what the CMS is talking about: "The meal consisted of soup, salad, and macaroni and cheese." I was saying the same. In your example there must be a comma before the first "and" because there is a further "and" in the last course. In your formulas case you have only 3 courses: (1) (2) and (3) so that (1) (2) , and (3) would be wrong, because there is only one course behind the "and" and there is no further "and" inside the last course. I recently had the same discussion with our English LyX manual proof reader who's working for a publishing company. regards Uwe
Re: Formatting numbered equations
Thanks to everyone. I'll have to look at the Math manual. I do, however, want to add one thing: On 4/19/2010 4:09 PM, Uwe Stöhr wrote: (By the way in English there is no comma before the "and" if the part after the "and" is the last enumeration in a sentence; like in "A, B, C and D are letters.") The following comes from the /Chicago Manual of Style/, 15th ed., section 6.18: When a conjunction joins the last two elements in a series, a comma -- known as the serial or series comma or the Oxford comma -- should appear before the conjunction. Chicago strongly recommends this widely practiced usage, blessed by Fowler and other authorities (see bibliog. 1.2), since it prevents ambiguity. Here's an example of what the CMS is talking about: "The meal consisted of soup, salad, and macaroni and cheese." Thanks to the commas we know there are three courses, the last being "macaroni and cheese," rather than four, including "macaroni" as the third and "cheese" as the fourth. Thanks again! Marsh Feldman
Re: Formatting numbered equations
Marshall Feldman writes: > > I have several questions regarding numbered equations: > >1. How does one add punctuation to numbered equations? Inside the equations, you add punctuation the usual way. After the equation numbers, you don't add punctuation. If you somehow succeed, the gods of typography will smite you mightily. I don't think I've ever seen a book or journal contain punctuation after the equation numbers. >2. How does one make the equations be part of a paragraph that begins > before and continues after them? Type the initial text, then C-S-M or Insert > Math > (some equation environment) without hitting enter first. That makes the math environment part of the same paragraph as the preceding text. Upon conclusion of the math stuff, use the right arrow or space bar to escape the math environment (or click just outside it) and keep typing (again, without hitting enter) -- the additional text will automatically flow to the next line without indentation, continuing the same paragraph. If you insert the equation as a display equation >3. How does one continue a numbered equation across multiple lines? Help > Math, section 18. /Paul
Re: Formatting numbered equations
Am 19.04.2010 20:25, schrieb Marshall Feldman: I have several questions regarding numbered equations: At first, please have a look at LyX's Math manual that you find in LyX's help menu. This will give you many info and answers. 1. How does one add punctuation to numbered equations? What do you mean here? 2. How does one make the equations be part of a paragraph that begins before and continues after them? I also don't understand what you mean here. If you are in a paragraph and press Ctrl+Shift+m you get a displayed formula that is part of this paragraph. (If you want to have an inline equation, press only Ctrl+m (omit the Shift key).) 3. How does one continue a numbered equation across multiple lines? > 2 + 2 = 4 (1), C = 2 x pi x r (2), and A = (1/2) b x h (3). In the above example, I can't figure out how to add the commas, period, and conjunction adjacent to the equation numbers. The equation number is the last character of an equation line, according to ISO norms. So you need to place the phrase "add" into a separate line. This can be done by either - using the command \intertext, as described in the Math manual - use two equations as in the attached example file The latter is the usual method. (By the way in English there is no comma before the "and" if the part after the "and" is the last enumeration in a sentence; like in "A, B, C and D are letters.") Also notice that the sentence beginning with "As" is part of the paragraph beginning with "Three." Everything is one paragraph if you don't press Enter after of before the equations. In the attached file there is only one paragraph. Regarding my third question, I have a long equation that should span multiple lines. Instead, LyX keeps it on one line that runs off the right side of the page, when it should look like: 5 = 1 + 5 = 2 + 3 = 3 + 2 = 4 + 1 = 10/2 = 50/10 = 100/20 (4) You are responsible for line breaks in equations. Possible methods are described in the Math manual. regards Uwe newfile3.lyx Description: application/lyx
Re: Formatting numbered equations
On 04/19/2010 02:25 PM, Marshall Feldman wrote: Hello, I have several questions regarding numbered equations: 1. How does one add punctuation to numbered equations? 2. How does one make the equations be part of a paragraph that begins before and continues after them? 3. How does one continue a numbered equation across multiple lines? That's a lot of questions. ;-) For example: _ Three of the most often quoted elementary mathematical equations are 2 + 2 = 4(1), C = 2 x pi x r (2), and A = (1/2) b x h (3). As you can see, Equation 2 is the most complex. _ In the above example, I can't figure out how to add the commas, period, and conjunction adjacent to the equation numbers. If you're using an equation array or something of the sort to format this, then you cannot add punctuation after the labels. There simply isn't any way to do this, so far as I know, not unless you define (or find) your own environments that allow it. An option is to turn on the "fleqn" option by putting "fleqn" in the Options field under Document>Settings>Document Class>Custom. This moves the numbers to the left, and then you can add the text in the usual way. Alternatively, change your syntax. "These are three...:". Also notice that the sentence beginning with "As" is part of the paragraph beginning with "Three." I can't get Lyx to format them right. The sentence beginning with "Three" is indented because it starts a paragraph. When I add anything after an equation number, LyX automatically treats it as a new paragraph. So in the above example, the line beginning with "As you can" is treated as the start of a new paragraph and indented. I'm not sure I fully understand this, but compare the two paragraphs in the attached document. In the second case, where the paragraph is indented, there is a return after the formula. If you put the cursor at the beginning of "what" and backspace, you will delete that return. Regarding my third question, I have a long equation that should span multiple lines. Instead, LyX keeps it on one line that runs off the right side of the page, when it should look like: 5 = 1 + 5 = 2 + 3 = 3 + 2 = 4 + 1 = 10/2 = 50/10 = 100/20 (4) Thanks for your help. You'll have to use something like the gather environment, or maybe an align environment, to format this correctly. Example in the file, again. rh #LyX 1.6.6svn created this file. For more info see http://www.lyx.org/ \lyxformat 345 \begin_document \begin_header \textclass paper \begin_preamble \usepackage{heck} \end_preamble \use_default_options false \language english \inputencoding auto \font_roman times \font_sans helvet \font_typewriter courier \font_default_family default \font_sc false \font_osf false \font_sf_scale 100 \font_tt_scale 100 \graphics default \paperfontsize 11 \spacing single \use_hyperref false \papersize letterpaper \use_geometry false \use_amsmath 1 \use_esint 0 \cite_engine natbib_authoryear \use_bibtopic false \paperorientation portrait \leftmargin 1in \topmargin 1in \rightmargin 1in \bottommargin 1in \secnumdepth 3 \tocdepth 3 \paragraph_separation indent \defskip smallskip \quotes_language english \papercolumns 1 \papersides 1 \paperpagestyle plain \tracking_changes false \output_changes false \author "" \author "" \end_header \begin_body \begin_layout Standard this. \begin_inset Formula \begin{gather} a=b\\ b=a\end{gather} \end_inset that. and now more \begin_inset Formula \begin{gather} a=b\\ b=a\end{gather} \end_inset \end_layout \begin_layout Standard what happened? Uh oh. \begin_inset Formula \[ a=b=c=d=e=f=g=h=i=j=k=l=m=n=o=p=q=r=s=t=u=v=w=x=y=z=0=1=2=3=4=5=6=7=8=9=0\] \end_inset Let's fix that. \begin_inset Formula \begin{align*} a & =b=c=d=e=f=g=h=i=j=k=l\\ & =m=n=o=p=q=r=s=t=u=v=w\\ & =x=y=z=0=1=2=3=4=5=6=7=8=9=0\end{align*} \end_inset Much better. \end_layout \end_body \end_document
Formatting numbered equations
Hello, I have several questions regarding numbered equations: 1. How does one add punctuation to numbered equations? 2. How does one make the equations be part of a paragraph that begins before and continues after them? 3. How does one continue a numbered equation across multiple lines? For example: _ Three of the most often quoted elementary mathematical equations are 2 + 2 = 4(1), C = 2 x pi x r (2), and A = (1/2) b x h (3). As you can see, Equation 2 is the most complex. _ In the above example, I can't figure out how to add the commas, period, and conjunction adjacent to the equation numbers. Also notice that the sentence beginning with "As" is part of the paragraph beginning with "Three." I can't get Lyx to format them right. The sentence beginning with "Three" is indented because it starts a paragraph. When I add anything after an equation number, LyX automatically treats it as a new paragraph. So in the above example, the line beginning with "As you can" is treated as the start of a new paragraph and indented. Regarding my third question, I have a long equation that should span multiple lines. Instead, LyX keeps it on one line that runs off the right side of the page, when it should look like: 5 = 1 + 5 = 2 + 3 = 3 + 2 = 4 + 1 = 10/2 = 50/10 = 100/20 (4) Thanks for your help. Marsh Feldman
formatting numbered equations
/"When all else fails, read the manual"--/ So I did, and found how to prevent Lyx from centering numbered equations: use the fleqn option in the Document Class under Settings. This left-justifies the equations, which is not really what I wanted, but it prevents the breaking up of the equation that bothered me before. EK