Re: LyX Promotion
Stephen > There was a version for LaTeX > http://www.tex.ac.uk/tex-archive/info/latex4wp/latex4wp.pdf > > This looks useful, thanks. Graham
Re: LyX Promotion
On 23 March 2011 08:12, Graham Smith wrote: > One possible approach is to write an introduction to Lyx specifically aimed > at Word users. > > This has been done for R at > http://chartsgraphs.wordpress.com/learnr-toolkit/ where the tutorials assume > familiarity with Excel and demonstrate how things differ (or are the same) > in R. There have also been similar things done for the GIS program Manifold, > comparing it against the Industry standard products from ESRI. > There was a version for LaTeX http://www.tex.ac.uk/tex-archive/info/latex4wp/latex4wp.pdf > > > On 22 March 2011 15:51, Rob Oakes wrote: >> >> Dear Users and Developers, >> >> Thank you to both Pavel and Stefano for ollowing up with Google about why >> the GSoC application was turned down. Is there any way that I could help in >> that review? Stefano, will you be attending the IRC meeting to be held later >> today? I think it's very important that we understand why LyX was rejected >> as a mentoring organization, and I'd be willing to hep in any way necessary. >> >> While I have some ideas about why it may have happened, I think that Pavel >> hit the nail on the head. When I talk to people about LyX, they seem to >> think of it as a specialized academic writing tool. Basically, a program >> which helps professors and students write a thesis or articles. (To be even >> more narrow, it seems like many think it is for math and physics people to >> write a thesis or article.) Which is to say, a specialized program with an >> incredibly small user base and use. >> >> While that stereotype may be somewhat true (I don't think anyone would >> argue that many of the developers and users are within academics), it >> significantly understates LyX's appeal, especially if you consider the >> enhancements available in the upcoming version. From my own personal >> experience, I've found LyX to be the most capable pre-press/writing tool >> I've ever come across. If I were a publishing company or involved in the >> creation of any type of documentation, I would be looking at LyX very >> carefully. It's the only tool that I know that allows you to manage >> collaboration, typesetting the final output, and target both electronic and >> print from the same source. With the recent explosion of electronic >> publishing and eBooks, I think that makes it *highly* relevant. >> >> Yet, I'm not sure that the wider community appreciates that. (Hearing >> Google's rationale for rejecting the GSoC application will help somewhat in >> clarifying how LyX is perceived.) Which really brings me to the reason I'm >> writing. >> >> Would it be worth trying to promote LyX to people who might find it >> helpful? >> >> We've talked for a long time about writing a LyX book, which is an >> excellent and wonderful project. But what if we first tested those waters by >> tackling some smaller projects first? >> >> For example: >> >> 1.) I just learned about a new open design magazine this morning, called >> LibreGraphics magazine (http://libregraphicsmag.com/). The goal of the >> publication is to help designers find tools for their work. It seems like an >> article about using LyX for book design would be a natural fit for their >> target audience. >> >> 2.) In similar vein, the LibreGraphics meeting is also coming up. This >> year, it will be held in Montreal. LibreGraphics targets a similar >> demographic, and it seems like such a presentation would be a natural fit. >> Even better, they pay the travel expenses of presenters >> (http://libregraphicsmeeting.org/2011/). Might anyone be interested in >> talking about using LyX to talk about book design, typography, or writing? >> >> 3.) It's been some time since Linux magazine or one of the other trade >> publications published a general purpose article on LyX. Might it be worth >> creating and submitting one? We might try and target Linux users magazine >> (http://www.linuxuser.co.uk/), ZdNet, or one of the large Linux blogs (like >> OMG!Ubuntu, http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/). >> >> 4.) It seems that there are people willing to help promote/evangelize LyX, >> but I'm not sure we offer much in the way of promotional materials to help. >> Would it be worthwhile to create a limited number of tutorials for people, >> like Venom, who will be holding seminars or workshops? (I've also thought >> about teaching a design workshop through my local library, and these >> materials would help provide a curriculum.) >> >> The tutorials could address some of the finer points of using LyX that are >> not covered in the manuals. For example, how do you collaborate using >> version control? What is the process for creating custom, typeset >> publications with LyX and LaTeX? We could publish cohesive examples and then >> walk through how the code works. They might describe principles of design, >> or typographical effects, and how they can be accomplished using LyX. Maybe >> we could create a writeup on how to prepare files for multiple output >> form
Re: LyX Promotion
On 23 March 2011 06:20, Steve Litt wrote: > On Tuesday 22 March 2011 23:27:45 David L. Johnson wrote: >> On 03/22/2011 10:58 PM, John McCabe-Dansted wrote: > >> > 3) Not WYSIWYG. Normal users clearly expect WYSIWYG. WYSIWYG and >> > WYSIWYM don't need to be mutually exclusive. >> >> They are to an extent, since WYSIWYG really means that all the document >> contains is what you see on the screen, without additional structure >> that properly formats it for a number of different export situations. > > That's not true at all. OpenOffice, MSWord, Abiword and Kompozer are all > WYSIWYG, and all of them can be used to write styles based content that gives > structure to the document. > >> > I think the LyX community does itself a grave disservice emphasizing this > WYSIWYG vs WYSIWYM thing. If I were going to enumerate the good things about > LyX, it would be something like this: > > * It typesets better and more consistently than its non-TeX based competitors. > * It deletes unintentional double spaces and double newlines. > * It always calculates references, TOC and indices correctly, unlike others. > * The black on tan is readable and soothing to the eyes for long workdays. > * Its simple native format invites programmatic document creation and editing. > * It's free software, which protects your documents from vendor lock-in. > * It's an incredibly fast authoring environment. > WYSIMUWE What you see is more useful whilst editing? WYSSYFWFWYSBW What you see stops you fiddling with format when you should be writing? -- Stephen
Re: LyX Promotion
On 23 March 2011 23:01, Rich Shepard wrote: > However, > many in the Microsoft Word world just don't care. And, frankly, I don't want > them to switch unless they're willing to take the time to learn a different > paradigm and understand what is underneath what they do. with many of these users it is difficult to to get them to learn anything about what Word/OO can do let alone anything else. I have seen vast manuals created in word with finger painting rather than styles, so none of the automated numbering/re-numbering, TOC etc features can be used. It is an uphill battle to get them to do this in word, so to try and get them to use another package seems unlikely. Word has made it so easy to finger paint... -- Stephen
Re: LyX Promotion
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 24/03/11 19:09, Steve Litt wrote: > On Thursday 24 March 2011 07:01:19 Rainer M Krug wrote: >> On 24/03/11 11:29, Guenter Milde wrote: >>> On 2011-03-23, Steve Litt wrote: > This is a wonderful idea. Now if we can only go the other direction... >>> >>> I think we should have "semantic" import/export filters in addition to >>> "visual" ones for all relevant document formats. >> >> I absolutely agree - this would make life so much easier: you can write >> in LyX, export sematically to doc / odt and do the formating in word / >> openoffice / libreoffice if the editor / conference only provides a >> specific word template. >> >> Definitely a priority. > > I'm not quite sure what you guys mean by "semantic import/export", but if you > mean exporting the text marked up with (empty) styles and the (empty) style > definitions so all I have to do with the MSWord file is fill in the styles, > then I'm on it like a squirrel on a tree. Let me tell you why. > > The (insert your own curse phrase here) fools controlling the various eBook > formats have made it almost necessary to use MSWord as the input to the eBook > conversion process. Saaayyy what??? So let me get this straight. I write > my book in a good software like LyX, and then have to rewrite it in (insert > your favorite phrase meaning "incompetent" here) MSWord in order to put it on > a Kindle? Really? > > You know, if we're really considering this, there should be an option to > convert what we call Part, Chapter, Section, Subsection... to MSWord's > Header1, Header2, Header3, Header4 etc. And of course we need to do it > configurably because not everyone uses parts and not everyone uses chapters. > I'm attaching part of my VimOutliner to LyX converter so you can see how I > implemented a similar level to level mapping in that software. I mean (and I thought that that is meant by "semantic export") exactly that: Exporting the document in such a way, that the structure is maintained, but the final printed document does not conform to LaTeX rules, but to MSWord rules. For this, as you mention we needd to "convert what we call Part, Chapter, Section, Subsection... to MSWord's Header1, Header2, Header3, Header4 etc.". It would be nice if one could have a mapping table, inwhich is stated "Part -> Header1" , "Chapter -> Header2", ... but which could be customised --- the default should map to the styles in the default template of MSWord. Character formating (emphasized, bold, ...) shgould be exported as character formating, as it would be horrible to sort that out again. And if I say MSWord and doc, I also mean LibreOffice / OpenOffice and odt. For the use case of collaboration, the comments and track changes should be exported as well. Next step: it would be nice to have an importer, who is doing the same the other way round - but that would be the next step. I would guess that an exporter / importer combo like that would make perfect sense for the use Steve mentioned and also be a perfect solution for collaboration. Cheers, Rainer > > Thanks > > SteveT > > Steve Litt > Recession Relief Package > http://www.recession-relief.US > Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt > - -- Rainer M. Krug, PhD (Conservation Ecology, SUN), MSc (Conservation Biology, UCT), Dipl. Phys. (Germany) Centre of Excellence for Invasion Biology Natural Sciences Building Office Suite 2039 Stellenbosch University Main Campus, Merriman Avenue Stellenbosch South Africa Tel:+33 - (0)9 53 10 27 44 Cell: +27 - (0)8 39 47 90 42 Fax (SA): +27 - (0)8 65 16 27 82 Fax (D) : +49 - (0)3 21 21 25 22 44 Fax (FR): +33 - (0)9 58 10 27 44 email: rai...@krugs.de Skype: RMkrug -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk2MQW0ACgkQoYgNqgF2egpypQCghLht0KG5OPyqr4nTG+A+1rYk BbgAnjLqXfeG6Q+g4IPBvV+dbAVRB8WZ =vkT+ -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: LyX Promotion
Hi Steve, > I'm not quite sure what you guys mean by "semantic import/export", but if you > mean exporting the text marked up with (empty) styles and the (empty) style > definitions so all I have to do with the MSWord file is fill in the styles, > then I'm on it like a squirrel on a tree. Let me tell you why. > > The (insert your own curse phrase here) fools controlling the various eBook > formats have made it almost necessary to use MSWord as the input to the eBook > conversion process. Saaayyy what??? So let me get this straight. I write > my book in a good software like LyX, and then have to rewrite it in (insert > your favorite phrase meaning "incompetent" here) MSWord in order to put it on > a Kindle? Really? If you're using version 2.0 of LyX, you can also export to XHTML. Kindle and Barnes and Noble PubIt let you upload HTML files without first converting to Word. If you don't mind hacking the layout files, you can also get a huge degree of control over how your document appears. For example, if you wanted to change the heading for chapter style so that it exports to (right now, it exports to ), you could use the following in the local layout of your file. Style Chapter HTMLTag h2 End If you wanted to modify how the CSS appears, you could then use the HTMLStyle tag to do something fancy. For example, the CSS below would allow you to make an off-white headline example with small caps. Style Chapter HTML Tagh2 HTMLStyle "font-family:Georgia,serif: color: #4#443C; font-variant: small-caps; text-transform: none; font-weight 100; margin-bottom: 0;" End You can use this technique to override any of the of default CSS for any document class. it's also a very good way to import a file into Word, since you can specify exactly what you would like for the styles to appear as, and Word will do its best to imitate them (as will OpenOffice). Generally, it does a pretty good job of getting both the styles and the appearance. I've been using it to exchange chapters of the neverending book project with the editors. So far, no major mishaps. It may even be pretty easy to automate using either the Java tool I created for importing Word files or an external tool. What I'm curious about, though, is if there is an HTML import script. That's a part of LyX I haven't played with at all. Cheers, Rob
Re: LyX Promotion
On 24/03/2011 2:09 PM, Steve Litt wrote: On Thursday 24 March 2011 07:01:19 Rainer M Krug wrote: On 24/03/11 11:29, Guenter Milde wrote: On 2011-03-23, Steve Litt wrote: This is a wonderful idea. Now if we can only go the other direction... I think we should have "semantic" import/export filters in addition to "visual" ones for all relevant document formats. I absolutely agree - this would make life so much easier: you can write in LyX, export sematically to doc / odt and do the formating in word / openoffice / libreoffice if the editor / conference only provides a specific word template. Definitely a priority. I'm not quite sure what you guys mean by "semantic import/export", but if you mean exporting the text marked up with (empty) styles and the (empty) style definitions so all I have to do with the MSWord file is fill in the styles, then I'm on it like a squirrel on a tree. Let me tell you why. The (insert your own curse phrase here) fools controlling the various eBook formats have made it almost necessary to use MSWord as the input to the eBook conversion process. Saaayyy what??? So let me get this straight. I write my book in a good software like LyX, and then have to rewrite it in (insert your favorite phrase meaning "incompetent" here) MSWord in order to put it on a Kindle? Really? You know, if we're really considering this, there should be an option to convert what we call Part, Chapter, Section, Subsection... to MSWord's Header1, Header2, Header3, Header4 etc. And of course we need to do it configurably because not everyone uses parts and not everyone uses chapters. I'm attaching part of my VimOutliner to LyX converter so you can see how I implemented a similar level to level mapping in that software. Thanks SteveT Steve Litt Recession Relief Package http://www.recession-relief.US Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt I love awk. Great tool. That's quite the script you got there. :) -- Julien
Re: LyX Promotion
On Thursday 24 March 2011 07:01:19 Rainer M Krug wrote: > On 24/03/11 11:29, Guenter Milde wrote: > > On 2011-03-23, Steve Litt wrote: > >> This is a wonderful idea. Now if we can only go the other direction... > > > > I think we should have "semantic" import/export filters in addition to > > "visual" ones for all relevant document formats. > > I absolutely agree - this would make life so much easier: you can write > in LyX, export sematically to doc / odt and do the formating in word / > openoffice / libreoffice if the editor / conference only provides a > specific word template. > > Definitely a priority. I'm not quite sure what you guys mean by "semantic import/export", but if you mean exporting the text marked up with (empty) styles and the (empty) style definitions so all I have to do with the MSWord file is fill in the styles, then I'm on it like a squirrel on a tree. Let me tell you why. The (insert your own curse phrase here) fools controlling the various eBook formats have made it almost necessary to use MSWord as the input to the eBook conversion process. Saaayyy what??? So let me get this straight. I write my book in a good software like LyX, and then have to rewrite it in (insert your favorite phrase meaning "incompetent" here) MSWord in order to put it on a Kindle? Really? You know, if we're really considering this, there should be an option to convert what we call Part, Chapter, Section, Subsection... to MSWord's Header1, Header2, Header3, Header4 etc. And of course we need to do it configurably because not everyone uses parts and not everyone uses chapters. I'm attaching part of my VimOutliner to LyX converter so you can see how I implemented a similar level to level mapping in that software. Thanks SteveT Steve Litt Recession Relief Package http://www.recession-relief.US Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt 1: Chapter 2: Section 3: Subsection 4: Subsubsection 5: Paragraph 6: Subparagraph 7: Garbage7 bodytext: Standard otl2lyx.awk Description: application/awk
Re: tutorials / slides for seminars or workshops (was: 'Re: LyX Promotion')
Translated my stuff to english: http://technion.ac.il/~ronen/lyxlecture2/en/ probably there are some grammar problems. use freely. On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 8:51 PM, Liviu Andronic wrote: > On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Ronen Abravanel wrote: > >> > department, and I started with very short into on LaTeX and "in what > >> > scene > >> > LyX is different from word", and then about 40 minutes of > demonstration > >> > of > >> > what can I do and how can I do that. > >> > > >> > If there is nothing better, I can translate my tutorial to English > (few > >> > > >> What is the original language of the tutorial? Maybe I could digest it > >> myself. > >> > > Hebrew. > > > Oh, I haven't gotten to Hebrew yet. :) If you have time and it's not > much bother, I would indeed much appreciate a starting point for my > workshop. Please let me know. > > Cheers > Liviu >
Re: LyX Promotion
On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 7:48 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote: > On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 12:01 PM, Rainer M Krug wrote: >> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- >> Hash: SHA1 >> >> On 24/03/11 11:29, Guenter Milde wrote: >>> On 2011-03-23, Steve Litt wrote: On Wednesday 23 March 2011 09:54:29 you wrote: >>> > As for Word/OO<-->LyX interoperability, that seems a chimera. How can > LyX ever be interoperable with Word, when even the LaTeX/LyX roundtrip > will not get you back the document you started from? It seems to me > that a more reasonable goal would be to have a Word-output function > that strips all formatting except the semantically relevant items > (emphasis, etc) and produce a clean Word file ready to be imported > into a typesetting program or to be sent to Word-only people. >>> Even better, in addition to exporting emphasis and noun, have it export the named but empty styles (environments and character styles) used in the doc, so the word doc has the styles and the text marked up with those styles. Then all that remains is to go in and modify those styles in MSWord or OOffice to produce the desired look. After all, modifying a style in Word is five minutes, not five hours. >>> This is a wonderful idea. Now if we can only go the other direction... >>> >>> I think we should have "semantic" import/export filters in addition to >>> "visual" ones for all relevant document formats. >> >> I absolutely agree - this would make life so much easier: you can write >> in LyX, export sematically to doc / odt and do the formating in word / >> openoffice / libreoffice if the editor / conference only provides a >> specific word template. >> >> Definitely a priority. >> > This might go down well as a GSoC project, as it seems useful and > "simple" enough. What do others think? > Liviu Excellent idea, I think. Perhaps Richard can comment on how far the XHTML filter is from the goal? My impression, as a user, is that it comes pretty close to what the project would be producing. Stefano
Re: LyX Promotion
On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 12:01 PM, Rainer M Krug wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > On 24/03/11 11:29, Guenter Milde wrote: >> On 2011-03-23, Steve Litt wrote: >>> On Wednesday 23 March 2011 09:54:29 you wrote: >> As for Word/OO<-->LyX interoperability, that seems a chimera. How can LyX ever be interoperable with Word, when even the LaTeX/LyX roundtrip will not get you back the document you started from? It seems to me that a more reasonable goal would be to have a Word-output function that strips all formatting except the semantically relevant items (emphasis, etc) and produce a clean Word file ready to be imported into a typesetting program or to be sent to Word-only people. >> >>> Even better, in addition to exporting emphasis and noun, have it export the >>> named but empty styles (environments and character styles) used in the doc, >>> so >>> the word doc has the styles and the text marked up with those styles. Then >>> all >>> that remains is to go in and modify those styles in MSWord or OOffice to >>> produce the desired look. After all, modifying a style in Word is five >>> minutes, not five hours. >> >>> This is a wonderful idea. Now if we can only go the other direction... >> >> I think we should have "semantic" import/export filters in addition to >> "visual" ones for all relevant document formats. > > I absolutely agree - this would make life so much easier: you can write > in LyX, export sematically to doc / odt and do the formating in word / > openoffice / libreoffice if the editor / conference only provides a > specific word template. > > Definitely a priority. > This might go down well as a GSoC project, as it seems useful and "simple" enough. What do others think? Liviu > Rainer > >> >> Günter >> > > > - -- > Rainer M. Krug, PhD (Conservation Ecology, SUN), MSc (Conservation > Biology, UCT), Dipl. Phys. (Germany) > > Centre of Excellence for Invasion Biology > Natural Sciences Building > Office Suite 2039 > Stellenbosch University > Main Campus, Merriman Avenue > Stellenbosch > South Africa > > Tel: +33 - (0)9 53 10 27 44 > Cell: +27 - (0)8 39 47 90 42 > Fax (SA): +27 - (0)8 65 16 27 82 > Fax (D) : +49 - (0)3 21 21 25 22 44 > Fax (FR): +33 - (0)9 58 10 27 44 > email: rai...@krugs.de > > Skype: RMkrug > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ > > iEYEARECAAYFAk2LJH8ACgkQoYgNqgF2egoORwCdGPeRIFLgVGqMpwDt8giqaQAZ > gHsAni+hS4j2uv+Z8EeV1PvzDb/wrhKa > =Q01i > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > -- Do you know how to read? http://www.alienetworks.com/srtest.cfm http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/applications/xfce4-dict#speed-reader Do you know how to write? http://garbl.home.comcast.net/~garbl/stylemanual/e.htm#e-mail
Re: LyX Promotion
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 24/03/11 11:29, Guenter Milde wrote: > On 2011-03-23, Steve Litt wrote: >> On Wednesday 23 March 2011 09:54:29 you wrote: > >>> As for Word/OO<-->LyX interoperability, that seems a chimera. How can >>> LyX ever be interoperable with Word, when even the LaTeX/LyX roundtrip >>> will not get you back the document you started from? It seems to me >>> that a more reasonable goal would be to have a Word-output function >>> that strips all formatting except the semantically relevant items >>> (emphasis, etc) and produce a clean Word file ready to be imported >>> into a typesetting program or to be sent to Word-only people. > >> Even better, in addition to exporting emphasis and noun, have it export the >> named but empty styles (environments and character styles) used in the doc, >> so >> the word doc has the styles and the text marked up with those styles. Then >> all >> that remains is to go in and modify those styles in MSWord or OOffice to >> produce the desired look. After all, modifying a style in Word is five >> minutes, not five hours. > >> This is a wonderful idea. Now if we can only go the other direction... > > I think we should have "semantic" import/export filters in addition to > "visual" ones for all relevant document formats. I absolutely agree - this would make life so much easier: you can write in LyX, export sematically to doc / odt and do the formating in word / openoffice / libreoffice if the editor / conference only provides a specific word template. Definitely a priority. Rainer > > Günter > - -- Rainer M. Krug, PhD (Conservation Ecology, SUN), MSc (Conservation Biology, UCT), Dipl. Phys. (Germany) Centre of Excellence for Invasion Biology Natural Sciences Building Office Suite 2039 Stellenbosch University Main Campus, Merriman Avenue Stellenbosch South Africa Tel:+33 - (0)9 53 10 27 44 Cell: +27 - (0)8 39 47 90 42 Fax (SA): +27 - (0)8 65 16 27 82 Fax (D) : +49 - (0)3 21 21 25 22 44 Fax (FR): +33 - (0)9 58 10 27 44 email: rai...@krugs.de Skype: RMkrug -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk2LJH8ACgkQoYgNqgF2egoORwCdGPeRIFLgVGqMpwDt8giqaQAZ gHsAni+hS4j2uv+Z8EeV1PvzDb/wrhKa =Q01i -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: LyX Promotion
On 2011-03-23, Steve Litt wrote: > On Wednesday 23 March 2011 09:54:29 you wrote: >> As for Word/OO<-->LyX interoperability, that seems a chimera. How can >> LyX ever be interoperable with Word, when even the LaTeX/LyX roundtrip >> will not get you back the document you started from? It seems to me >> that a more reasonable goal would be to have a Word-output function >> that strips all formatting except the semantically relevant items >> (emphasis, etc) and produce a clean Word file ready to be imported >> into a typesetting program or to be sent to Word-only people. > Even better, in addition to exporting emphasis and noun, have it export the > named but empty styles (environments and character styles) used in the doc, > so > the word doc has the styles and the text marked up with those styles. Then > all > that remains is to go in and modify those styles in MSWord or OOffice to > produce the desired look. After all, modifying a style in Word is five > minutes, not five hours. > This is a wonderful idea. Now if we can only go the other direction... I think we should have "semantic" import/export filters in addition to "visual" ones for all relevant document formats. Günter
Re: LyX Promotion
On Wed, 23 Mar 2011, John Kane wrote: Logic splitting here but I would be coming, well am, from an SGML,OOo/AmiPro, FullWrite Professional background and there still seem to be quite a few WordPerfect people still out there. Agreed that the majority of people are likely to be Word or Latex but not all, I'll throw in my opinion, too. It's free and well worth the price. About 15 years ago we had this same discussion about linux: how do we get more people to defenestrate and adopt linux or the *BSDs. The consensus settled down to: don't do anything. Those who want to work in a better, more secure computing environment will do so. Those who want to point-and-click/drag-and-drool, and not learn how to type at a CLI are not candidates for the unices. And Microsoft is welcome to support them. It's the same with LyX/LaTeX. Not everyone cares about typeset output (but put a page from OO.o Writer next to the same text from TeX and everyone can see the difference), and not everyone wants to understand what's going on underneath the hood. To use LyX you need to know LaTeX. For most of us, too, we accept that we're not expert typographers, page layout gurus, or document structure experts. So we leave those to the professionals and we just produce our documents while focusing on content (the substantive) and ignoring the superficial. Yes, we sometimes need to change appearances, but we can do this very easily with the KOMA-script and Memoir classes. However, many in the Microsoft Word world just don't care. And, frankly, I don't want them to switch unless they're willing to take the time to learn a different paradigm and understand what is underneath what they do. On may other open source software mail lists I see the struggles of those who want to run the applications on Windoze. They don't understand the need to know the tool since all their experience is in using tools that are totally opaque to them because they are proprietary. I had this discussion earlier today with a colleague who does forest analytics and he was explaining how limiting SAS is compared to R, but folks still resist change because it means learning something new. The LyX-using community keeps growing. New users will find it just like the rest of us did. Rich
Re: LyX Promotion
On Wednesday 23 March 2011 09:54:29 you wrote: > As for Word/OO<-->LyX interoperability, that seems a chimera. How can > LyX ever be interoperable with Word, when even the LaTeX/LyX roundtrip > will not get you back the document you started from? It seems to me > that a more reasonable goal would be to have a Word-output function > that strips all formatting except the semantically relevant items > (emphasis, etc) and produce a clean Word file ready to be imported > into a typesetting program or to be sent to Word-only people. Even better, in addition to exporting emphasis and noun, have it export the named but empty styles (environments and character styles) used in the doc, so the word doc has the styles and the text marked up with those styles. Then all that remains is to go in and modify those styles in MSWord or OOffice to produce the desired look. After all, modifying a style in Word is five minutes, not five hours. This is a wonderful idea. Now if we can only go the other direction... Thanks SteveT Steve Litt Recession Relief Package http://www.recession-relief.US Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt
Re: LyX Promotion
On 2011-03-23, John McCabe-Dansted wrote: > On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 11:51 PM, Rob Oakes wrote: >> While I have some ideas about why it may have happened, I think that >> Pavel hit the nail on the head. When I talk to people about LyX, they >> seem to think of it as a specialized academic writing tool. Basically, >> a program which helps professors and students write a thesis or >> articles. (To be even more narrow, it seems like many think it is for >> math and physics people to write a thesis or article.) IMV, handling formal, complex documents and math typesetting are actually LyX main strenghts. ... > To the extent that the stereotype is true, it may also be worth > considering what the reasons are for this, and if it is reasonable to > remove those reasons. Off-the-top of my head the following could be > issues. > 1) Compile Errors. ... > 1b) Perhaps we could improve the latex export so that compile errors > only occur if the user uses ERT. This is an ongoing task (as LaTeX evolves and there are far too many ways to create a compile error that cannot be foreseen). However, my experience is that LaTeX compile errors are already treated as bugs, so no change in policy is needed. Also there is usually fast help (hints on "thw right way" or workarounds) when compile errors are reported on the users list (even faster if a minimal example is given). > 2) Compatibility with Word. Typical users expect to be able to open > and save word documents. ... > 3) Not WYSIWYG. ... > After the content is complete, I go though a cycle of: Notice > something weird with the line-breaking in the PDF, muck around with > the LyX source hoping it fixed the problem; recompile PDF. This can > take a while and having a WYSIWYG mode could make this process a > factor of ten times faster. Where do you expecte the speedup? * Compiling a long, complex document can take considerable time. In WYSIWYG mode, this time would be needed with every edit action. * A major speedup of the process is possible without WYSIWYG mode: The keyword is "inverse search": clicking in the PDF viewer brings you to the right spot in the source. Getting this to work out of the box seems a worthwile task. Günter
Re: LyX Promotion
--- On Wed, 3/23/11, Liviu Andronic wrote: > From: Liviu Andronic > Subject: Re: LyX Promotion > To: "Graham Smith" > Cc: "LyX Devel" , lyx-users@lists.lyx.org > Received: Wednesday, March 23, 2011, 4:34 AM > On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 9:12 AM, > Graham Smith > wrote: > > One possible approach is to write an introduction to > Lyx specifically aimed > > at Word users. > > > This makes a lot of sense to me. Most of all we probably > need an > introduction for those coming from the world of Word > (highest > priority) and, perhaps, one for those with a heavy LaTeX > background. > (For the latter, we might simply recycle the existing Help > > Tutorial > > LyX for LaTeX users, but give it much better > visibility on the > lyx.org home page.) > > If you give it some thought, the two are essentially the > only ones > that make sense, because there aren't really other types of > newcomers: > you are either already familiar with Word, or with LaTeX; > else you > wouldn't be looking at LyX in the first place. Logic splitting here but I would be coming, well am, from an SGML,OOo/AmiPro, FullWrite Professional background and there still seem to be quite a few WordPerfect people still out there. Agreed that the majority of people are likely to be Word or Latex but not all, > > Liviu > > > > This has been done for R at > > http://chartsgraphs.wordpress.com/learnr-toolkit/ where > the tutorials assume > > familiarity with Excel and demonstrate how things > differ (or are the same) > > in R. There have also been similar things done for the > GIS program Manifold, > > comparing it against the Industry standard products > from ESRI. > > > > I had a couple of aborted attempts with Lyx, because, > as a Word User, I just > > couldn't get my head around certain concepts (the > concept of compiling a > > document probably being the main one). I then > eventually came back to Lyx > > via SWeave in R, which introduced me to Latex, and > then Lyx fell into place > > and I realised it gave me an easy interface to Latex > for every day > > documents. > > > > A Lyx equivilant of the R tutorials would have been a > great help. > > > > Graham > > > > > > > > On 22 March 2011 15:51, Rob Oakes > wrote: > >> > >> Dear Users and Developers, > >> > >> Thank you to both Pavel and Stefano for ollowing > up with Google about why > >> the GSoC application was turned down. Is there any > way that I could help in > >> that review? Stefano, will you be attending the > IRC meeting to be held later > >> today? I think it's very important that we > understand why LyX was rejected > >> as a mentoring organization, and I'd be willing to > hep in any way necessary. > >> > >> While I have some ideas about why it may have > happened, I think that Pavel > >> hit the nail on the head. When I talk to people > about LyX, they seem to > >> think of it as a specialized academic writing > tool. Basically, a program > >> which helps professors and students write a thesis > or articles. (To be even > >> more narrow, it seems like many think it is for > math and physics people to > >> write a thesis or article.) Which is to say, a > specialized program with an > >> incredibly small user base and use. > >> > >> While that stereotype may be somewhat true (I > don't think anyone would > >> argue that many of the developers and users are > within academics), it > >> significantly understates LyX's appeal, especially > if you consider the > >> enhancements available in the upcoming version. > From my own personal > >> experience, I've found LyX to be the most capable > pre-press/writing tool > >> I've ever come across. If I were a publishing > company or involved in the > >> creation of any type of documentation, I would be > looking at LyX very > >> carefully. It's the only tool that I know that > allows you to manage > >> collaboration, typesetting the final output, and > target both electronic and > >> print from the same source. With the recent > explosion of electronic > >> publishing and eBooks, I think that makes it > *highly* relevant. > >> > >> Yet, I'm not sure that the wider community > appreciates that. (Hearing > >> Google's rationale for rejecting the GSoC > application will help somewhat in > >> clarifying how LyX is perceived.) Whi
Re: tutorials / slides for seminars or workshops (was: 'Re: LyX Promotion')
On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Ronen Abravanel wrote: >> > department, and I started with very short into on LaTeX and "in what >> > scene >> > LyX is different from word", and then about 40 minutes of demonstration >> > of >> > what can I do and how can I do that. >> > >> > If there is nothing better, I can translate my tutorial to English (few >> > >> What is the original language of the tutorial? Maybe I could digest it >> myself. >> > Hebrew. > Oh, I haven't gotten to Hebrew yet. :) If you have time and it's not much bother, I would indeed much appreciate a starting point for my workshop. Please let me know. Cheers Liviu
Re: tutorials / slides for seminars or workshops (was: 'Re: LyX Promotion')
On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 11:49 PM, Liviu Andronic wrote: > On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 10:23 PM, Ronen Abravanel > wrote: > > How long should it be? A year ago I had one hour workshop on LyX in my > > > I highly doubt that it would exceed an hour. > > > > department, and I started with very short into on LaTeX and "in what > scene > > LyX is different from word", and then about 40 minutes of demonstration > of > > what can I do and how can I do that. > > > > If there is nothing better, I can translate my tutorial to English (few > > > What is the original language of the tutorial? Maybe I could digest it > myself. > > Hebrew. > > > beamer-slides, and 3 pages of "do that in order to achieve this..." > list... > > > This is a nice idea for a tutorial, too. > Liviu > > > > > Ronen > > > > On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 6:38 PM, Liviu Andronic > > wrote: > >> > >> Dear all > >> I think this is a very good idea. > >> > >> > >> On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 4:51 PM, Rob Oakes > wrote: > >> > 4.) It seems that there are people willing to help promote/evangelize > >> > LyX, but I'm not sure we offer much in the way of promotional > materials to > >> > help. Would it be worthwhile to create a limited number of tutorials > for > >> > people, like Venom, who will be holding seminars or workshops? (I've > also > >> > thought about teaching a design workshop through my local library, and > these > >> > materials would help provide a curriculum.) > >> > > >> I will be holding a workshop on LyX to graduate types at my university > >> and I'm not very sure where from to begin. Some ready materials > >> (slides on the advantages of LyX/LaTeX over MS Word and the hord, step > >> by step tutorials for creating your first document in LyX, using > >> bibliography and fancier features) would be of enormous help. > >> > >> At the moment I plan to start with the 'Help > Documentation' in > >> preparing my tutorial. Perhaps some of you have already passed through > >> this experience and have some materials readily available? If so, > >> please post them here. > >> > >> Regards > >> Liviu > > > > > > > > -- > Do you know how to read? > http://www.alienetworks.com/srtest.cfm > http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/applications/xfce4-dict#speed-reader > Do you know how to write? > http://garbl.home.comcast.net/~garbl/stylemanual/e.htm#e-mail >
Re: LyX Promotion
> On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 5:20 PM, Steve Litt > wrote: >> >> If I were going to enumerate the good things about >> LyX, it would be something like this: >> >> * It typesets better and more consistently than its non-TeX based >> competitors. >> * It deletes unintentional double spaces and double newlines. >> * It always calculates references, TOC and indices correctly, unlike >> others. >> * The black on tan is readable and soothing to the eyes for long workdays. >> * Its simple native format invites programmatic document creation and >> editing. >> * It's free software, which protects your documents from vendor lock-in. >> * It's an incredibly fast authoring environment. I completely agree with Steve's points about LyX. In particular, I think he is right in pointing out that "pure" LyX/LaTeX will almost never produce a final "production quality" output. And by "production quality" I mean a document typeset to the typographical standards used and enforced by good publishing houses. LaTeX will almost get you there---let's say 90% of the way---while Word/OO do not even try. But that final 10% requires manual intervention and exact much more pain than you'll ever encounter in Word/OO or other standard word processors. I say this from my very recent experience as the co-editor a 400+ book done with LyX and typeset to publisher's specs. There are many reasons for this fact. One is font handling, which is very poor in LaTeX. Things are getting better with LuaTeX/fonttspec, but the process is still far from straightforward. A second problem is page breaks, which is certainly not one of LaTeX's strengths "out of the box." Not only page breaks need to be manually adjusted in the final draft, getting correct grid-like layout with properly balanced odd and even page is incredibly difficult, in my experience. A recent article in TugBoat went into some details on this issue, and the discussion continued on comp.text.tex. I don't know enough TeX to really use the experimental algorithms that were proposed both in the article and in the group, and my sense of the current state of the art is that a better page-handling algorithm will have to wait for a LuaTeX-based solution. There are other issues as well, some of which Steve mentioned. And I am not even getting into the academia-only problems of correctly typesetting bibliography styles and index layouts. In short: LyX should not be promoted as the tool that gets you "camera-ready" "production-quality" pdf files out of the box. It won't. It will produce"near-production-quality" pdf that will need quite a bit of tweaking and will require specialized skills in order to be "perfect." Out of the box, LyX will produce better looking documents than your average word processor. In my experience, though, most Word users do not really care, because what they get from their word processor is good enough. In a sense, they are right: for informal communication, a document typeset by Word is often sufficient. And for formal communication, well, the professionals who work for publishing houses and/or service bureaus will take your Word document and produce a professionally typeset document with tools like InDesign, Quark Xpress, etcetera. (As some have pointed out, this situation may change as personally produced e-books become a mass phenomenon. In my opinion, though, we are not even close to that.) On the other hand, LyX should be promoted, I think, as a more productive environment. To put it crudely: LyX/LaTeX's weakness (finessing formats is a royal pain) turns into a strength: you know you do not want to mess with the format because it is a pain. Therefore you focus on the content only. Thi sis obviously true for long, complex documents, as many have pointed out. But it is also true for shorter documents. I routinely write everything except letters in LyX, from memos to lecture notes, to notes to myself. to articles, etc. I am much more productive than I have ever been (and I have used every single version of MS Word from 1.0/DOS forward, plus various assorted alternatives). As for Word/OO<-->LyX interoperability, that seems a chimera. How can LyX ever be interoperable with Word, when even the LaTeX/LyX roundtrip will not get you back the document you started from? It seems to me that a more reasonable goal would be to have a Word-output function that strips all formatting except the semantically relevant items (emphasis, etc) and produce a clean Word file ready to be imported into a typesetting program or to be sent to Word-only people. The XHTML output filter in LyX 2.0 is almost there, I think. The biggest hurdle to LyX's acceptance, I think, is that it is almost impossible to cooperate with people not using it. Writing an article, or a memo, or a report, grant application, with Word users is not possible unless the LyX user takes the responsibility of maintaining a LyX master file and inputting corrections and edits from pdf annotations, manual edits on hard copy
Re: tutorials / slides for seminars or workshops (was: 'Re: LyX Promotion')
On 2011-03-22, Liviu Andronic wrote: > On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 4:51 PM, Rob Oakes wrote: >> 4.) It seems that there are people willing to help promote/evangelize >> LyX, but I'm not sure we offer much in the way of promotional >> materials to help. Would it be worthwhile to create a limited number >> of tutorials for people, like Venom, who will be holding seminars or >> workshops? (I've also thought about teaching a design workshop through >> my local library, and these materials would help provide a >> curriculum.) > I will be holding a workshop on LyX to graduate types at my university > and I'm not very sure where from to begin. Some ready materials > (slides on the advantages of LyX/LaTeX over MS Word and the hord, step > by step tutorials for creating your first document in LyX, using > bibliography and fancier features) would be of enormous help. > > At the moment I plan to start with the 'Help > Documentation' in > preparing my tutorial. Perhaps some of you have already passed through > this experience and have some materials readily available? If so, > please post them here. There is already much material at http://wiki.lyx.org. Maybe a review and re-organization might improve its "impact factor". Günter
Re: LyX Promotion
Steve, I like your list of good things about LyX; but you have omitted what to me is the most significant: Try using Word to compile a long book with many illustrations, often with 3 graphics to a page. Word has a shocking reputation for using a master document with many child documents, particularly one with many graphics. There are many warnings that Word will crash and corrupt files. So be it - I used OpenOffice. Result: as the book got longer, the OpenOffice master crashed frequently. Every time a child document was added or modified, the master document took up to half an hour to update and was likely to crash in the process. At least OpenOffice never corrupted the files; but it became impractical to complete assembly of the book. I carried the same files over to LyX, converting each child document. Result: LyX has not crashed once and it assembles or updates the master document into a pdf, with all the graphics inserted in less than 30 seconds. I may have to negotiate with LyX on where I wish to place an image or what ERT is needed. But the worse that might happen is I get an error message. All through the operations, LyX remains rock steady. For long complex documents, LyX is the practical solution. Cheers, George Legge On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 5:20 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > If I were going to enumerate the good things about > LyX, it would be something like this: > > * It typesets better and more consistently than its non-TeX based > competitors. > * It deletes unintentional double spaces and double newlines. > * It always calculates references, TOC and indices correctly, unlike > others. > * The black on tan is readable and soothing to the eyes for long workdays. > * Its simple native format invites programmatic document creation and > editing. > * It's free software, which protects your documents from vendor lock-in. > * It's an incredibly fast authoring environment. >
Re: LyX Promotion
Rainer, I completely agree and this would be a very usefull document - but the > issue is not to provide an easy transition from Word to LyX, but to > enable an easy co-operation with Word or OO / LibreOffice users, in > the sense that: > Ah OK, I obviously misunderstood the basis of the thread, I thought it was to broaden the appeal/user base beyond the perceived Academic one (but I use it in consultancy). Graham
Re: LyX Promotion
On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 9:12 AM, Graham Smith wrote: > One possible approach is to write an introduction to Lyx specifically aimed > at Word users. > This makes a lot of sense to me. Most of all we probably need an introduction for those coming from the world of Word (highest priority) and, perhaps, one for those with a heavy LaTeX background. (For the latter, we might simply recycle the existing Help > Tutorial > LyX for LaTeX users, but give it much better visibility on the lyx.org home page.) If you give it some thought, the two are essentially the only ones that make sense, because there aren't really other types of newcomers: you are either already familiar with Word, or with LaTeX; else you wouldn't be looking at LyX in the first place. Liviu > This has been done for R at > http://chartsgraphs.wordpress.com/learnr-toolkit/ where the tutorials assume > familiarity with Excel and demonstrate how things differ (or are the same) > in R. There have also been similar things done for the GIS program Manifold, > comparing it against the Industry standard products from ESRI. > > I had a couple of aborted attempts with Lyx, because, as a Word User, I just > couldn't get my head around certain concepts (the concept of compiling a > document probably being the main one). I then eventually came back to Lyx > via SWeave in R, which introduced me to Latex, and then Lyx fell into place > and I realised it gave me an easy interface to Latex for every day > documents. > > A Lyx equivilant of the R tutorials would have been a great help. > > Graham > > > > On 22 March 2011 15:51, Rob Oakes wrote: >> >> Dear Users and Developers, >> >> Thank you to both Pavel and Stefano for ollowing up with Google about why >> the GSoC application was turned down. Is there any way that I could help in >> that review? Stefano, will you be attending the IRC meeting to be held later >> today? I think it's very important that we understand why LyX was rejected >> as a mentoring organization, and I'd be willing to hep in any way necessary. >> >> While I have some ideas about why it may have happened, I think that Pavel >> hit the nail on the head. When I talk to people about LyX, they seem to >> think of it as a specialized academic writing tool. Basically, a program >> which helps professors and students write a thesis or articles. (To be even >> more narrow, it seems like many think it is for math and physics people to >> write a thesis or article.) Which is to say, a specialized program with an >> incredibly small user base and use. >> >> While that stereotype may be somewhat true (I don't think anyone would >> argue that many of the developers and users are within academics), it >> significantly understates LyX's appeal, especially if you consider the >> enhancements available in the upcoming version. From my own personal >> experience, I've found LyX to be the most capable pre-press/writing tool >> I've ever come across. If I were a publishing company or involved in the >> creation of any type of documentation, I would be looking at LyX very >> carefully. It's the only tool that I know that allows you to manage >> collaboration, typesetting the final output, and target both electronic and >> print from the same source. With the recent explosion of electronic >> publishing and eBooks, I think that makes it *highly* relevant. >> >> Yet, I'm not sure that the wider community appreciates that. (Hearing >> Google's rationale for rejecting the GSoC application will help somewhat in >> clarifying how LyX is perceived.) Which really brings me to the reason I'm >> writing. >> >> Would it be worth trying to promote LyX to people who might find it >> helpful? >> >> We've talked for a long time about writing a LyX book, which is an >> excellent and wonderful project. But what if we first tested those waters by >> tackling some smaller projects first? >> >> For example: >> >> 1.) I just learned about a new open design magazine this morning, called >> LibreGraphics magazine (http://libregraphicsmag.com/). The goal of the >> publication is to help designers find tools for their work. It seems like an >> article about using LyX for book design would be a natural fit for their >> target audience. >> >> 2.) In similar vein, the LibreGraphics meeting is also coming up. This >> year, it will be held in Montreal. LibreGraphics targets a similar >> demographic, and it seems like such a presentation would be a natural fit. >> Even better, they pay the travel expenses of presenters >> (http://libregraphicsmeeting.org/2011/). Might anyone be interested in >> talking about using LyX to talk about book design, typography, or writing? >> >> 3.) It's been some time since Linux magazine or one of the other trade >> publications published a general purpose article on LyX. Might it be worth >> creating and submitting one? We might try and target Linux users magazine >> (http://www.linuxuser.co.uk/), ZdNet, or one of the large Linux blogs (like >> OMG!Ubuntu, h
Re: LyX Promotion
On Wed, Mar 23, 2011 at 9:12 AM, Graham Smith wrote: > One possible approach is to write an introduction to Lyx specifically aimed > at Word users. > > This has been done for R at > http://chartsgraphs.wordpress.com/learnr-toolkit/ where the tutorials assume > familiarity with Excel and demonstrate how things differ (or are the same) > in R. There have also been similar things done for the GIS program Manifold, > comparing it against the Industry standard products from ESRI. > > I had a couple of aborted attempts with Lyx, because, as a Word User, I just > couldn't get my head around certain concepts (the concept of compiling a > document probably being the main one). I then eventually came back to Lyx > via SWeave in R, which introduced me to Latex, and then Lyx fell into place > and I realised it gave me an easy interface to Latex for every day > documents. > > A Lyx equivilant of the R tutorials would have been a great help. I completely agree and this would be a very usefull document - but the issue is not to provide an easy transition from Word to LyX, but to enable an easy co-operation with Word or OO / LibreOffice users, in the sense that: Main Document in LyX -> export to doc / odt (including comments and track changes) -> comment from Word users in document -> import into LyX -> editiong in LyX -> export to doc / odt (including comments and track changes) -> ... -> Finl editing in LyX So the Word user would not be confronted with LyX. But I think that this should be a separate topic. Cheers, Rainer > > Graham > > > > On 22 March 2011 15:51, Rob Oakes wrote: >> >> Dear Users and Developers, >> >> Thank you to both Pavel and Stefano for ollowing up with Google about why >> the GSoC application was turned down. Is there any way that I could help in >> that review? Stefano, will you be attending the IRC meeting to be held later >> today? I think it's very important that we understand why LyX was rejected >> as a mentoring organization, and I'd be willing to hep in any way necessary. >> >> While I have some ideas about why it may have happened, I think that Pavel >> hit the nail on the head. When I talk to people about LyX, they seem to >> think of it as a specialized academic writing tool. Basically, a program >> which helps professors and students write a thesis or articles. (To be even >> more narrow, it seems like many think it is for math and physics people to >> write a thesis or article.) Which is to say, a specialized program with an >> incredibly small user base and use. >> >> While that stereotype may be somewhat true (I don't think anyone would >> argue that many of the developers and users are within academics), it >> significantly understates LyX's appeal, especially if you consider the >> enhancements available in the upcoming version. From my own personal >> experience, I've found LyX to be the most capable pre-press/writing tool >> I've ever come across. If I were a publishing company or involved in the >> creation of any type of documentation, I would be looking at LyX very >> carefully. It's the only tool that I know that allows you to manage >> collaboration, typesetting the final output, and target both electronic and >> print from the same source. With the recent explosion of electronic >> publishing and eBooks, I think that makes it *highly* relevant. >> >> Yet, I'm not sure that the wider community appreciates that. (Hearing >> Google's rationale for rejecting the GSoC application will help somewhat in >> clarifying how LyX is perceived.) Which really brings me to the reason I'm >> writing. >> >> Would it be worth trying to promote LyX to people who might find it >> helpful? >> >> We've talked for a long time about writing a LyX book, which is an >> excellent and wonderful project. But what if we first tested those waters by >> tackling some smaller projects first? >> >> For example: >> >> 1.) I just learned about a new open design magazine this morning, called >> LibreGraphics magazine (http://libregraphicsmag.com/). The goal of the >> publication is to help designers find tools for their work. It seems like an >> article about using LyX for book design would be a natural fit for their >> target audience. >> >> 2.) In similar vein, the LibreGraphics meeting is also coming up. This >> year, it will be held in Montreal. LibreGraphics targets a similar >> demographic, and it seems like such a presentation would be a natural fit. >> Even better, they pay the travel expenses of presenters >> (http://libregraphicsmeeting.org/2011/). Might anyone be interested in >> talking about using LyX to talk about book design, typography, or writing? >> >> 3.) It's been some time since Linux magazine or one of the other trade >> publications published a general purpose article on LyX. Might it be worth >> creating and submitting one? We might try and target Linux users magazine >> (http://www.linuxuser.co.uk/), ZdNet, or one of the large Linux blogs (like >> OMG!Ubuntu, http://www.omgub
Re: LyX Promotion
One possible approach is to write an introduction to Lyx specifically aimed at Word users. This has been done for R at http://chartsgraphs.wordpress.com/learnr-toolkit/ where the tutorials assume familiarity with Excel and demonstrate how things differ (or are the same) in R. There have also been similar things done for the GIS program Manifold, comparing it against the Industry standard products from ESRI. I had a couple of aborted attempts with Lyx, because, as a Word User, I just couldn't get my head around certain concepts (the concept of compiling a document probably being the main one). I then eventually came back to Lyx via SWeave in R, which introduced me to Latex, and then Lyx fell into place and I realised it gave me an easy interface to Latex for every day documents. A Lyx equivilant of the R tutorials would have been a great help. Graham On 22 March 2011 15:51, Rob Oakes wrote: > Dear Users and Developers, > > Thank you to both Pavel and Stefano for ollowing up with Google about why > the GSoC application was turned down. Is there any way that I could help in > that review? Stefano, will you be attending the IRC meeting to be held later > today? I think it's very important that we understand why LyX was rejected > as a mentoring organization, and I'd be willing to hep in any way necessary. > > While I have some ideas about why it may have happened, I think that Pavel > hit the nail on the head. When I talk to people about LyX, they seem to > think of it as a specialized academic writing tool. Basically, a program > which helps professors and students write a thesis or articles. (To be even > more narrow, it seems like many think it is for math and physics people to > write a thesis or article.) Which is to say, a specialized program with an > incredibly small user base and use. > > While that stereotype may be somewhat true (I don't think anyone would > argue that many of the developers and users are within academics), it > significantly understates LyX's appeal, especially if you consider the > enhancements available in the upcoming version. From my own personal > experience, I've found LyX to be the most capable pre-press/writing tool > I've ever come across. If I were a publishing company or involved in the > creation of any type of documentation, I would be looking at LyX very > carefully. It's the only tool that I know that allows you to manage > collaboration, typesetting the final output, and target both electronic and > print from the same source. With the recent explosion of electronic > publishing and eBooks, I think that makes it *highly* relevant. > > Yet, I'm not sure that the wider community appreciates that. (Hearing > Google's rationale for rejecting the GSoC application will help somewhat in > clarifying how LyX is perceived.) Which really brings me to the reason I'm > writing. > > Would it be worth trying to promote LyX to people who might find it > helpful? > > We've talked for a long time about writing a LyX book, which is an > excellent and wonderful project. But what if we first tested those waters by > tackling some smaller projects first? > > For example: > > 1.) I just learned about a new open design magazine this morning, called > LibreGraphics magazine (http://libregraphicsmag.com/). The goal of the > publication is to help designers find tools for their work. It seems like an > article about using LyX for book design would be a natural fit for their > target audience. > > 2.) In similar vein, the LibreGraphics meeting is also coming up. This > year, it will be held in Montreal. LibreGraphics targets a similar > demographic, and it seems like such a presentation would be a natural fit. > Even better, they pay the travel expenses of presenters ( > http://libregraphicsmeeting.org/2011/). Might anyone be interested in > talking about using LyX to talk about book design, typography, or writing? > > 3.) It's been some time since Linux magazine or one of the other trade > publications published a general purpose article on LyX. Might it be worth > creating and submitting one? We might try and target Linux users magazine ( > http://www.linuxuser.co.uk/), ZdNet, or one of the large Linux blogs (like > OMG!Ubuntu, http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/). > > 4.) It seems that there are people willing to help promote/evangelize LyX, > but I'm not sure we offer much in the way of promotional materials to help. > Would it be worthwhile to create a limited number of tutorials for people, > like Venom, who will be holding seminars or workshops? (I've also thought > about teaching a design workshop through my local library, and these > materials would help provide a curriculum.) > > The tutorials could address some of the finer points of using LyX that are > not covered in the manuals. For example, how do you collaborate using > version control? What is the process for creating custom, typeset > publications with LyX and LaTeX? We could publish cohesive examples and then > walk throu
Re: LyX Promotion
> 1) Compile Errors. Normal users aren't used to dealing with compile > errors and shouldn't be expected to fix them. Even I don't like > dealing with compile errors all that much. > 1a) Perhaps we could do some sort of bisect to determine where the > error is (either over the file itself or some fine-grained history). > 1b) Perhaps we could improve the latex export so that compile errors > only occur if the user uses ERT. Particularly with beamer, this isn't > always the case. This is an important point, and one should evaluate if it is feasible to go further into 'asking' LaTeX wheere the error is - it would definitley help the users to provide a better understandable error message *if* something fails. ERT are a different issue - if you are using ERTs, you should know what you are doing and out of the responsibility zone of LyX. But beamer should be refined. > > 2) Compatibility with Word. Typical users expect to be able to open > and save word documents. What I would expect / not expect from a word document which is exported from LyX is: 1) Have all the content (normally this is the case) 2) Not look like a LaTeX document - I want to use it to collaborate with word users, so the actual layout (margins, ...) are irrelevant for me. Sections should be using the style for header 1, subsections header 2, ... SO that it *looks* MsWordish and easy for the word user (which is not the case when it looks as a document created by LaTeX - start with the margins which look horrible in word but are brilliant in the final pdf). This refers to paragraph styles - but character styles should be exported as they are. So a mapping would be usefull: "Section -> header 1" , ... 2a) I understand that one wants to have sometime the possibility to export the LaTeX generated document - but that is a different story. 3) Contain the track changes from LyX 4) Contain the comments To go from there, I would expect that, when importing the word document I get back from my collaborators with track changes and comments, that 1) Track changes are imported 2) Comments are imported 3) Paragraph styles are ignored, apart from the "mapped" default styles (header 1-> Section) My reasoning is, that in most cases, an export is NOT done to see the final layout (for this I usually attach a pdf as well), but for editorial comments. Cheers, Rainer > > > -- > John C. McCabe-Dansted > -- NEW GERMAN FAX NUMBER!!! Rainer M. Krug, PhD (Conservation Ecology, SUN), MSc (Conservation Biology, UCT), Dipl. Phys. (Germany) Centre of Excellence for Invasion Biology Natural Sciences Building Office Suite 2039 Stellenbosch University Main Campus, Merriman Avenue Stellenbosch South Africa Cell: +27 - (0)83 9479 042 Fax: +27 - (0)86 516 2782 Fax: +49 - (0)321 2125 2244 email: rai...@krugs.de Skype: RMkrug Google: r.m.k...@gmail.com
Re: LyX Promotion
On Tuesday 22 March 2011 23:27:45 David L. Johnson wrote: > On 03/22/2011 10:58 PM, John McCabe-Dansted wrote: > > 3) Not WYSIWYG. Normal users clearly expect WYSIWYG. WYSIWYG and > > WYSIWYM don't need to be mutually exclusive. > > They are to an extent, since WYSIWYG really means that all the document > contains is what you see on the screen, without additional structure > that properly formats it for a number of different export situations. That's not true at all. OpenOffice, MSWord, Abiword and Kompozer are all WYSIWYG, and all of them can be used to write styles based content that gives structure to the document. > > Think about writing a document in word. You spend time getting the > spacing right, the margins to look right, and align all the bits of text > by hand. That's not true at all. In 1999, before knowing about LyX, I wrote a 317 page styles based book in MS Word, and you'd better believe the spacing, margins and alignment were all governed by styles and not by one-off formatting. I think the LyX community does itself a grave disservice emphasizing this WYSIWYG vs WYSIWYM thing. If I were going to enumerate the good things about LyX, it would be something like this: * It typesets better and more consistently than its non-TeX based competitors. * It deletes unintentional double spaces and double newlines. * It always calculates references, TOC and indices correctly, unlike others. * The black on tan is readable and soothing to the eyes for long workdays. * Its simple native format invites programmatic document creation and editing. * It's free software, which protects your documents from vendor lock-in. * It's an incredibly fast authoring environment. > > Ignoring the difficulty > > > in implementing for a while, having a WYSIWYG mode would be great. > > After the content is complete, I go though a cycle of: Notice > > something weird with the line-breaking in the PDF, muck around with > > the LyX source hoping it fixed the problem; > > No. TeX handles all that, don't ask users to spend effort in dealing > with how lines break. Write the paper, let TeX format it. I would not > want to worry about how it looks on the page while writing, that is a > bad habit that you can avoid with LyX. I have to disagree again. If there's something "weird with the line-breaking" in the PDF, then it will make the reader uncomfortable, and you can't just say "Let TeX handle it", because apparently it didn't, and the reader must be comfortable. Long words, URLs, monospaced type are just a few of the things that make funny line breaks in default-formatted LyX docs. And by funny line breaks I mean lines walking right off the page, which is a fatal error as far as the reader's concerned. Most such problems can be handled by \sloppy, but unless you want the whole doc sloppy, you must do that on a paragraph by paragraph basis. When I began using LyX in 2001 and complained about the prodigious difficulty of making your own paragraph styles, some people told me "just use the defaults." Scuse me? LyX didn't provide a Warning style, and my readers needed one. It didn't provide a Story style, and my readers needed one. Saying to just use the defaults is a lot like telling a programmer to use standard cooked input on a keyboard driven menu system. Sure, it's easier for the programmer, but the user has to hit double the keystrokes, and he'll hate the end product. I wrote an article about some of this ten years ago: http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/lyx/bestandworst.htm SteveT Steve Litt Recession Relief Package http://www.recession-relief.US Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt
Re: LyX Promotion
On 03/22/2011 10:58 PM, John McCabe-Dansted wrote: 1) Compile Errors. Normal users aren't used to dealing with compile errors and shouldn't be expected to fix them. Even I don't like dealing with compile errors all that much. With LyX you should not get compile errors unless you are doing something fancy. It should be the case that no ERT => smooth compilation. I can't recall the last time that was not the case with LyX. 1a) Perhaps we could do some sort of bisect to determine where the error is (either over the file itself or some fine-grained history). That is hard because sometimes TeX gets royally confused, and doesn't really understand what's wrong until far past the real mistake. 1b) Perhaps we could improve the latex export so that compile errors only occur if the user uses ERT. Particularly with beamer, this isn't always the case. Well, AFAIK beamer is a new addition to LyX, and is not yet mature. 2) Compatibility with Word. Typical users expect to be able to open and save word documents. 2a) It is easy to bundle import/export filters so that the users don't have to manually set up OOXML and ODF. This export wouldn't work as well as e.g. OOXML<-> ODF though. I really don't think this will work, since LyX documents have a lot more structure than word documents. You can certainly import word documents successfully, but exporting them is going to lose a lot of structure. You don't want to be saving to word format and expect to get the right file when you import it into LyX again. 3) Not WYSIWYG. Normal users clearly expect WYSIWYG. WYSIWYG and WYSIWYM don't need to be mutually exclusive. They are to an extent, since WYSIWYG really means that all the document contains is what you see on the screen, without additional structure that properly formats it for a number of different export situations. Think about writing a document in word. You spend time getting the spacing right, the margins to look right, and align all the bits of text by hand. I never have to worry about that in LyX, since I trust TeX to get it right. Ignoring the difficulty in implementing for a while, having a WYSIWYG mode would be great. After the content is complete, I go though a cycle of: Notice something weird with the line-breaking in the PDF, muck around with the LyX source hoping it fixed the problem; No. TeX handles all that, don't ask users to spend effort in dealing with how lines break. Write the paper, let TeX format it. I would not want to worry about how it looks on the page while writing, that is a bad habit that you can avoid with LyX. recompile PDF. This can take a while and having a WYSIWYG mode could make this process a factor of ten times faster. No, in my experience it creates the "takes a while" part. -- David L. Johnson "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines." --Ralph Waldo Emerson
Re: LyX Promotion
On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 11:51 PM, Rob Oakes wrote: > While I have some ideas about why it may have happened, I think that Pavel > hit the nail on the head. When I talk to people about LyX, they seem to think > of it as a specialized academic writing tool. Basically, a program which > helps professors and students write a thesis or articles. (To be even more > narrow, it seems like many think it is for math and physics people to write a > thesis or article.) Which is to say, a specialized program with an incredibly > small user base and use. > > While that stereotype may be somewhat true (I don't think anyone would argue > that many of the developers and users are within academics), it significantly > understates LyX's appeal, especially if you consider the enhancements > available in the To the extent that the stereotype is true, it may also be worth considering what the reasons are for this, and if it is reasonable to remove those reasons. Off-the-top of my head the following could be issues. 1) Compile Errors. Normal users aren't used to dealing with compile errors and shouldn't be expected to fix them. Even I don't like dealing with compile errors all that much. 1a) Perhaps we could do some sort of bisect to determine where the error is (either over the file itself or some fine-grained history). 1b) Perhaps we could improve the latex export so that compile errors only occur if the user uses ERT. Particularly with beamer, this isn't always the case. 2) Compatibility with Word. Typical users expect to be able to open and save word documents. 2a) It is easy to bundle import/export filters so that the users don't have to manually set up OOXML and ODF. This export wouldn't work as well as e.g. OOXML <-> ODF though. One concern is that it may lead the user to think this conversion is more supported than it really is. 2b) Normal users probably expect rich text paste as well. I usually prefer plain text paste myself as I don't want adhoc formatting showing up in my LyX file. We could have the option of either. 3) Not WYSIWYG. Normal users clearly expect WYSIWYG. WYSIWYG and WYSIWYM don't need to be mutually exclusive. Ignoring the difficulty in implementing for a while, having a WYSIWYG mode would be great. After the content is complete, I go though a cycle of: Notice something weird with the line-breaking in the PDF, muck around with the LyX source hoping it fixed the problem; recompile PDF. This can take a while and having a WYSIWYG mode could make this process a factor of ten times faster. 3a) Psuedo-WYSIWYG. I find it helps to set the size of the LyX window to be the same width as the PDF, so if I see a problem on the third line of a paragraph in the PDF I can go straight to the third line of the paragraph in the LyX window and fix it. Presumably LyX could approximate the line-breaking algorithm of TeX and do a much better job than I can by merely adjusting the width of the window. This would be sufficient for me, but normal users may find another not-quite-WYSIWYG mode more confusing than reassuring. 3b) LyX could bypass LaTeX. This is clearly what normal users are used to. However this presumably wouldn't help in my use case where I am submitting to a journal that provides a LaTeX style file. So it seems to me that e.g. (1) should be fixed, and should be perhaps be dealt with before we market LyX as being for normal users. Even (3) could be fixed, and it would be good if it could, but it doesn't seem worth the effort at the moment. (It certainly doesn't seem like something that we should sit on our hands waiting for, and may in fact dilute the WYSIWYM message). -- John C. McCabe-Dansted
Re: tutorials / slides for seminars or workshops (was: 'Re: LyX Promotion')
On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 10:23 PM, Ronen Abravanel wrote: > How long should it be? A year ago I had one hour workshop on LyX in my > I highly doubt that it would exceed an hour. > department, and I started with very short into on LaTeX and "in what scene > LyX is different from word", and then about 40 minutes of demonstration of > what can I do and how can I do that. > > If there is nothing better, I can translate my tutorial to English (few > What is the original language of the tutorial? Maybe I could digest it myself. > beamer-slides, and 3 pages of "do that in order to achieve this..." list... > This is a nice idea for a tutorial, too. Liviu > Ronen > > On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 6:38 PM, Liviu Andronic > wrote: >> >> Dear all >> I think this is a very good idea. >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 4:51 PM, Rob Oakes wrote: >> > 4.) It seems that there are people willing to help promote/evangelize >> > LyX, but I'm not sure we offer much in the way of promotional materials to >> > help. Would it be worthwhile to create a limited number of tutorials for >> > people, like Venom, who will be holding seminars or workshops? (I've also >> > thought about teaching a design workshop through my local library, and >> > these >> > materials would help provide a curriculum.) >> > >> I will be holding a workshop on LyX to graduate types at my university >> and I'm not very sure where from to begin. Some ready materials >> (slides on the advantages of LyX/LaTeX over MS Word and the hord, step >> by step tutorials for creating your first document in LyX, using >> bibliography and fancier features) would be of enormous help. >> >> At the moment I plan to start with the 'Help > Documentation' in >> preparing my tutorial. Perhaps some of you have already passed through >> this experience and have some materials readily available? If so, >> please post them here. >> >> Regards >> Liviu > > -- Do you know how to read? http://www.alienetworks.com/srtest.cfm http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/applications/xfce4-dict#speed-reader Do you know how to write? http://garbl.home.comcast.net/~garbl/stylemanual/e.htm#e-mail
Re: tutorials / slides for seminars or workshops (was: 'Re: LyX Promotion')
How long should it be? A year ago I had one hour workshop on LyX in my department, and I started with very short into on LaTeX and "in what scene LyX is different from word", and then about 40 minutes of demonstration of what can I do and how can I do that. If there is nothing better, I can translate my tutorial to English (few beamer-slides, and 3 pages of "do that in order to achieve this..." list... Ronen On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 6:38 PM, Liviu Andronic wrote: > Dear all > I think this is a very good idea. > > > On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 4:51 PM, Rob Oakes wrote: > > 4.) It seems that there are people willing to help promote/evangelize > LyX, but I'm not sure we offer much in the way of promotional materials to > help. Would it be worthwhile to create a limited number of tutorials for > people, like Venom, who will be holding seminars or workshops? (I've also > thought about teaching a design workshop through my local library, and these > materials would help provide a curriculum.) > > > I will be holding a workshop on LyX to graduate types at my university > and I'm not very sure where from to begin. Some ready materials > (slides on the advantages of LyX/LaTeX over MS Word and the hord, step > by step tutorials for creating your first document in LyX, using > bibliography and fancier features) would be of enormous help. > > At the moment I plan to start with the 'Help > Documentation' in > preparing my tutorial. Perhaps some of you have already passed through > this experience and have some materials readily available? If so, > please post them here. > > Regards > Liviu >
Re: tutorials / slides for seminars or workshops (was: 'Re: LyX Promotion')
On 22/03/11 16:38, Liviu Andronic wrote: > Dear all > I think this is a very good idea. > > > On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 4:51 PM, Rob Oakes wrote: >> 4.) It seems that there are people willing to help promote/evangelize LyX, >> but I'm not sure we offer much in the way of promotional materials to help. >> Would it be worthwhile to create a limited number of tutorials for people, >> like Venom, who will be holding seminars or workshops? (I've also thought >> about teaching a design workshop through my local library, and these >> materials would help provide a curriculum.) >> > I will be holding a workshop on LyX to graduate types at my university > and I'm not very sure where from to begin. Some ready materials > (slides on the advantages of LyX/LaTeX over MS Word and the hord, step > by step tutorials for creating your first document in LyX, using > bibliography and fancier features) would be of enormous help. > > At the moment I plan to start with the 'Help > Documentation' in > preparing my tutorial. Perhaps some of you have already passed through > this experience and have some materials readily available? If so, > please post them here. > > Regards > Liviu You may want to contact Joseph Wright at the UK TeX user group as they do introductory courses on LaTeX, for some pointers. The website below gives details on what the course covers so perhaps if your course did the same but using LyX and you are able to collaborate it would be a useful for people going from one to the other or using both, http://uk.tug.org/ Hope this helps Paul Sutton -- Paul Sutton Cert SLPS (Open) http://www.zleap.net Easter Fest 2011 - Music and production activities for young people 12 - 19 April 11 - 23rd - The Lighthouse,26 Esplanade Road, Paignton 01803 411 812 or e-mail i...@devonmusiccollective.com for more info. 17th September 2011 - Software freedom day
Re: LyX Promotion
Op 22-3-2011 17:59, Steve Litt schreef: The next major revision of my courseware will be All-Beamer-All-The-Time (no LyX, just Beamer LaTeX). It's 1000 times easier to maintain and personalize than OOImpress viewed on MS Powerpoint. You would have loved the new "LyX Presentation Mode": http://wiki.lyx.org/Devel/SummerOfCode2011Ideas#toc3 (if we weren't rejected of course ;)) Vincent
Re: LyX Promotion
> The next major revision of my courseware will be All-Beamer-All-The-Time (no > LyX, just Beamer LaTeX). It's 1000 times easier to maintain and personalize > than OOImpress viewed on MS Powerpoint. > > Nowadays, all my letters are LyX letter template. Yeah, it's a PITA, and I > think it's a silly use of LyX, but it's a whole lot better than OOWriter. > > When writing a paper 5 pages or less, I use Abiword to get it done in a few > minutes. Beyond 5 pages, I use LyX. LyX can be a PITA, but at least you know > it will work. > > And of course, when writing anything over 50 pages I use LyX. This is LyX's > intended usage, and who in their right mind would use anything else for 50+ > page docs? A book on LyX could be useful but you raise an important point here, what perhaps needs to be got across is when do you use LyX when does this stop and LaTeX takes over or perhaps the other way round. something to think about Paul
Re: LyX Promotion - use outside academia
On 22/03/11 15:51, Rob Oakes wrote: > Dear Users and Developers, > > Thank you to both Pavel and Stefano for ollowing up with Google about why the > GSoC application was turned down. Is there any way that I could help in that > review? Stefano, will you be attending the IRC meeting to be held later > today? I think it's very important that we understand why LyX was rejected as > a mentoring organization, and I'd be willing to hep in any way necessary. > > While I have some ideas about why it may have happened, I think that Pavel > hit the nail on the head. When I talk to people about LyX, they seem to think > of it as a specialized academic writing tool. Basically, a program which > helps professors and students write a thesis or articles. (To be even more > narrow, it seems like many think it is for math and physics people to write a > thesis or article.) Which is to say, a specialized program with an incredibly > small user base and use. > > While that stereotype may be somewhat true (I don't think anyone would argue > that many of the developers and users are within academics), it significantly > understates LyX's appeal, especially if you consider the enhancements > available in the upcoming version. From my own personal experience, I've > found LyX to be the most capable pre-press/writing tool I've ever come > across. If I were a publishing company or involved in the creation of any > type of documentation, I would be looking at LyX very carefully. It's the > only tool that I know that allows you to manage collaboration, typesetting > the final output, and target both electronic and print from the same source. > With the recent explosion of electronic publishing and eBooks, I think that > makes it *highly* relevant. > > Yet, I'm not sure that the wider community appreciates that. (Hearing > Google's rationale for rejecting the GSoC application will help somewhat in > clarifying how LyX is perceived.) Which really brings me to the reason I'm > writing. > > Would it be worth trying to promote LyX to people who might find it helpful? > > We've talked for a long time about writing a LyX book, which is an excellent > and wonderful project. But what if we first tested those waters by tackling > some smaller projects first? > > For example: > > 1.) I just learned about a new open design magazine this morning, called > LibreGraphics magazine (http://libregraphicsmag.com/). The goal of the > publication is to help designers find tools for their work. It seems like an > article about using LyX for book design would be a natural fit for their > target audience. > > 2.) In similar vein, the LibreGraphics meeting is also coming up. This year, > it will be held in Montreal. LibreGraphics targets a similar demographic, and > it seems like such a presentation would be a natural fit. Even better, they > pay the travel expenses of presenters > (http://libregraphicsmeeting.org/2011/). Might anyone be interested in > talking about using LyX to talk about book design, typography, or writing? > > 3.) It's been some time since Linux magazine or one of the other trade > publications published a general purpose article on LyX. Might it be worth > creating and submitting one? We might try and target Linux users magazine > (http://www.linuxuser.co.uk/), ZdNet, or one of the large Linux blogs (like > OMG!Ubuntu, http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/). > > 4.) It seems that there are people willing to help promote/evangelize LyX, > but I'm not sure we offer much in the way of promotional materials to help. > Would it be worthwhile to create a limited number of tutorials for people, > like Venom, who will be holding seminars or workshops? (I've also thought > about teaching a design workshop through my local library, and these > materials would help provide a curriculum.) > > The tutorials could address some of the finer points of using LyX that are > not covered in the manuals. For example, how do you collaborate using version > control? What is the process for creating custom, typeset publications with > LyX and LaTeX? We could publish cohesive examples and then walk through how > the code works. They might describe principles of design, or typographical > effects, and how they can be accomplished using LyX. Maybe we could create a > writeup on how to prepare files for multiple output formats (print, web, > eBook) using a single source. I'm sure that there are other tutorials that > I'm overlooking. > > Which really brings me to the point I want to make: if we target the right > groups and create nice looking materials, it could go a long ways to > clarifying LyX's position in the free-softare world. It's also likely that we > might find developers to contribute time and code, businesses who would be > willing to support future development, and others who could help grow the LyX > user base. > > Many of the other projects who were accepted seem to have dedicated > m
Re: LyX Promotion
On Tuesday 22 March 2011 11:58:22 Rich Shepard wrote: > On Tue, 22 Mar 2011, Rob Oakes wrote: > > When I talk to people about LyX, they seem to think of it as a > > specialized academic writing tool. Basically, a program which helps > > professors and students write a thesis or articles. (To be even more > > narrow, it seems like many think it is for math and physics people to > > write a thesis or article.) Which is to say, a specialized program with > > an incredibly small user base and use. > > > > While that stereotype may be somewhat true (I don't think anyone would > > argue that many of the developers and users are within academics), > >Feh! I do most of my writing with LyX: proposals, reports, letters, > newsletter, white papers, etc. I use OO Writer under duress; it's too > Microsoftish for me. Oh don't I wish it were too Microsoftish! If it were just like Word/Powerpoint I'd use it all the time -- Powerpoint is decent and Word is actually a good program. But N, OO imports word docs and changes all styles to fingerpainting. An OO made Powerpoint has stuff walking off the screen viewed in Powerpoint. I try never to use OO on anything more than three pages long, because I end up putting my fist through the wall. OO is utter junk. The only time I use OO is the anding of the following: 1) The other guy simply MUST work in MS Office 2) The document is relatively simple 3) Exact appearance isn't important An example is when my editor made queries to my book, and I responded to the queries, and the editor responded to my responses, ... I just kept making styles to accommodate ever increasing levels of response, and somehow the styles survived the round trip from MSWord to OO and back. The next major revision of my courseware will be All-Beamer-All-The-Time (no LyX, just Beamer LaTeX). It's 1000 times easier to maintain and personalize than OOImpress viewed on MS Powerpoint. Nowadays, all my letters are LyX letter template. Yeah, it's a PITA, and I think it's a silly use of LyX, but it's a whole lot better than OOWriter. When writing a paper 5 pages or less, I use Abiword to get it done in a few minutes. Beyond 5 pages, I use LyX. LyX can be a PITA, but at least you know it will work. And of course, when writing anything over 50 pages I use LyX. This is LyX's intended usage, and who in their right mind would use anything else for 50+ page docs? OO has the worlds ugliest native file format. Several XML files zipped up. These files resemble a severely denormalized database -- everything depends on everything else, and any given change can affect four or five different XML sections and maybe multiple files. As a practical matter, I find it impossible to work with OO native format. Contrast this with LyX, which so far is fairly easy to write and parse from a Perl or Lua program. Friends don't let friends use OO. SteveT Steve Litt Recession Relief Package http://www.recession-relief.US Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt
tutorials / slides for seminars or workshops (was: 'Re: LyX Promotion')
Dear all I think this is a very good idea. On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 4:51 PM, Rob Oakes wrote: > 4.) It seems that there are people willing to help promote/evangelize LyX, > but I'm not sure we offer much in the way of promotional materials to help. > Would it be worthwhile to create a limited number of tutorials for people, > like Venom, who will be holding seminars or workshops? (I've also thought > about teaching a design workshop through my local library, and these > materials would help provide a curriculum.) > I will be holding a workshop on LyX to graduate types at my university and I'm not very sure where from to begin. Some ready materials (slides on the advantages of LyX/LaTeX over MS Word and the hord, step by step tutorials for creating your first document in LyX, using bibliography and fancier features) would be of enormous help. At the moment I plan to start with the 'Help > Documentation' in preparing my tutorial. Perhaps some of you have already passed through this experience and have some materials readily available? If so, please post them here. Regards Liviu
Re: LyX Promotion
On Tue, Mar 22, 2011 at 5:04 PM, Manolo Martínez wrote: > There is something that might help: wouldn't it be possible to add a > "made with LyX" tag alongside TeX and pdfTeX in the properties of the > resulting pdf? > Yes, I always thought that LyX should tag PDFs by 'Created with LyX'. Is it difficult to achieve? Liviu > It'd be an easy way to communicate that a nice document -that gets you > looking into its properties- was made with LyX. > > M > > -- Do you know how to read? http://www.alienetworks.com/srtest.cfm http://goodies.xfce.org/projects/applications/xfce4-dict#speed-reader Do you know how to write? http://garbl.home.comcast.net/~garbl/stylemanual/e.htm#e-mail
Re: LyX Promotion
There is something that might help: wouldn't it be possible to add a "made with LyX" tag alongside TeX and pdfTeX in the properties of the resulting pdf? It'd be an easy way to communicate that a nice document -that gets you looking into its properties- was made with LyX. M
Re: LyX Promotion
On Tue, 22 Mar 2011, Rob Oakes wrote: When I talk to people about LyX, they seem to think of it as a specialized academic writing tool. Basically, a program which helps professors and students write a thesis or articles. (To be even more narrow, it seems like many think it is for math and physics people to write a thesis or article.) Which is to say, a specialized program with an incredibly small user base and use. While that stereotype may be somewhat true (I don't think anyone would argue that many of the developers and users are within academics), Feh! I do most of my writing with LyX: proposals, reports, letters, newsletter, white papers, etc. I use OO Writer under duress; it's too Microsoftish for me. If you look on our Web site at the downloadable documents, almost all are typeset by TeX and I escaped academia 30 years ago. Rich
LyX Promotion
Dear Users and Developers, Thank you to both Pavel and Stefano for ollowing up with Google about why the GSoC application was turned down. Is there any way that I could help in that review? Stefano, will you be attending the IRC meeting to be held later today? I think it's very important that we understand why LyX was rejected as a mentoring organization, and I'd be willing to hep in any way necessary. While I have some ideas about why it may have happened, I think that Pavel hit the nail on the head. When I talk to people about LyX, they seem to think of it as a specialized academic writing tool. Basically, a program which helps professors and students write a thesis or articles. (To be even more narrow, it seems like many think it is for math and physics people to write a thesis or article.) Which is to say, a specialized program with an incredibly small user base and use. While that stereotype may be somewhat true (I don't think anyone would argue that many of the developers and users are within academics), it significantly understates LyX's appeal, especially if you consider the enhancements available in the upcoming version. From my own personal experience, I've found LyX to be the most capable pre-press/writing tool I've ever come across. If I were a publishing company or involved in the creation of any type of documentation, I would be looking at LyX very carefully. It's the only tool that I know that allows you to manage collaboration, typesetting the final output, and target both electronic and print from the same source. With the recent explosion of electronic publishing and eBooks, I think that makes it *highly* relevant. Yet, I'm not sure that the wider community appreciates that. (Hearing Google's rationale for rejecting the GSoC application will help somewhat in clarifying how LyX is perceived.) Which really brings me to the reason I'm writing. Would it be worth trying to promote LyX to people who might find it helpful? We've talked for a long time about writing a LyX book, which is an excellent and wonderful project. But what if we first tested those waters by tackling some smaller projects first? For example: 1.) I just learned about a new open design magazine this morning, called LibreGraphics magazine (http://libregraphicsmag.com/). The goal of the publication is to help designers find tools for their work. It seems like an article about using LyX for book design would be a natural fit for their target audience. 2.) In similar vein, the LibreGraphics meeting is also coming up. This year, it will be held in Montreal. LibreGraphics targets a similar demographic, and it seems like such a presentation would be a natural fit. Even better, they pay the travel expenses of presenters (http://libregraphicsmeeting.org/2011/). Might anyone be interested in talking about using LyX to talk about book design, typography, or writing? 3.) It's been some time since Linux magazine or one of the other trade publications published a general purpose article on LyX. Might it be worth creating and submitting one? We might try and target Linux users magazine (http://www.linuxuser.co.uk/), ZdNet, or one of the large Linux blogs (like OMG!Ubuntu, http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/). 4.) It seems that there are people willing to help promote/evangelize LyX, but I'm not sure we offer much in the way of promotional materials to help. Would it be worthwhile to create a limited number of tutorials for people, like Venom, who will be holding seminars or workshops? (I've also thought about teaching a design workshop through my local library, and these materials would help provide a curriculum.) The tutorials could address some of the finer points of using LyX that are not covered in the manuals. For example, how do you collaborate using version control? What is the process for creating custom, typeset publications with LyX and LaTeX? We could publish cohesive examples and then walk through how the code works. They might describe principles of design, or typographical effects, and how they can be accomplished using LyX. Maybe we could create a writeup on how to prepare files for multiple output formats (print, web, eBook) using a single source. I'm sure that there are other tutorials that I'm overlooking. Which really brings me to the point I want to make: if we target the right groups and create nice looking materials, it could go a long ways to clarifying LyX's position in the free-softare world. It's also likely that we might find developers to contribute time and code, businesses who would be willing to support future development, and others who could help grow the LyX user base. Many of the other projects who were accepted seem to have dedicated marketing/promotion teams. Would it be worth trying to organize such an endeavor for LyX? It might provide a great way for less code savvy types to contribute to the project. Cheers, Rob
