Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX
On 08/30/2013 11:16 PM, Ken Springer wrote: AFAIK, PostScript is a printer language, where a PDF is supposed to be a cross platform, software independent document format. And the web has nothing to do with it. PostScript is an interpreted programming language, largely intended, of course, for page description. It runs, in principle, on anything, and there are interpreters for lots of platforms and different kinds of devices. PDF incorporates a subset of PostScript and adds font embedding. The biggest difference is that PDFs are structured by page, so that you could download one page and be able to display it. To display a single page of a PostScript file, by contrast, you have to have everything before it. That made PostScript unsuitable for the web, and PDF was, to a large extent, created to solve that problem. On the other hand, PDF is not really as cross-platform as it claims to be. A single PDF can look very different on different devices, unless you make sure to embed all the fonts. This is one place that DVI has a significant advantage. Richard http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_Document_Format#Technical_foundations
Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX
On 8/30/13 8:22 AM, Richard Heck wrote: On 08/29/2013 08:38 PM, Ken Springer wrote: On 8/29/13 1:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote: On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer wrote: Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the actual quality of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the quality of the printer being used. Right or wrong? If wrong, why? Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid, whichever printer you use. So, the typesetting advantages of LyX/LaTeX is retained in a PDF document? That's great, since OS X has included native PDF export from the print dialog for some time. You don't need to use anything like that. LyX exports directly to PDF (which, if I remember correctly, is really a variety of PostScript, tuned for the web). This is good to know about exporting to PDF. AFAIK, PostScript is a printer language, where a PDF is supposed to be a cross platform, software independent document format. And the web has nothing to do with it. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.4 Firefox 23.0 Thunderbird 17.0.8 LibreOffice 4.1.04
Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX
On 8/30/13 8:25 AM, Richard Heck wrote: On 08/29/2013 08:41 PM, Ken Springer wrote: On 8/29/13 8:19 AM, Richard Heck wrote: On 08/29/2013 03:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote: On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer wrote: Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the actual quality of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the quality of the printer being used. Right or wrong? If wrong, why? Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid, whichever printer you use. Obviously, a low resolution printer will give worse printed output. This is especially true since the fonts used are (usually) vector fonts. Would you have a guess as to the minimum resolution a printer would have to have that would show the difference in the quality of the final print? I'm thinking something the average computer user would possibly own, as opposed to a professional printing shop. No, I don't know enough about this, and obviously not as much as you. But even most home laser printers nowadays have enormous resolution. The pages I printed myself to test looked really good to my eyes. Admittedly, I've not had the time nor resources (meaning software) to test how things work today. I was looking for free stochastic screening software when I found the expensive stuff. But this has got me to wondering if the end result may end up being likened to the output of word processing software compared to typesetting software. Maybe you won't notice the difference until you have them side by side. This is something I won't be able to pursue at my end for at least two months. Just no time. :-( -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.4 Firefox 23.0 Thunderbird 17.0.8 LibreOffice 4.1.04
Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX
On 8/30/13 12:23 AM, Stephen George wrote: On 30/08/2013 1:49 PM, Ken Springer wrote: On 8/29/13 8:08 PM, Steve Litt wrote: When doing stochastic screening, the ideal is to screen at the same dpi as the final printing device. Next best is an even multiple. I.E. screen at 300 dpi for printing on a 600 dpi printer. You also have to decide on the finished physical size of the graphic before you start. I used to use the regular graphic in all the drafts. When I was satisfied with everything, then I applied the stochastic screen. I just searched Inscape+"stochastic screening" and got a bunch of useless stuff including an anti-Obama site (what, how'd Google do that?). Then I did the same thing for LaTeX, nothing ontopic for us. Same thing with "Computer monitors". One site said most inkjet printers use stochastic screening. I suspect all home printers and laser printers now have some kind of stochastic screening routines in their printer drivers. But, I've not tested the idea. An interesting discussion, but a question about Stochastic screening from someone who has only just heard of it. Is this screening something done at print driver level, and not a screen applied to the graphic itself prior to importing? ... therefore the same pdf file could be printed both with and without stochastic screening if the printer/driver support it? When I started with stochastic screening, printer drivers didn't have that ability. To write my reply, I had to do a bit of research, it's amazing how much you forget when you don't work with things for a long time. I found out that stochastic screening is also called frequency modulated screening, and error diffusion screening. After I started using stochastic screening on the image itself, HP started having error diffusion features of printing. I never applied the screening to the entire document, only to images. Then I placed the screened image into the document, and printed. Personally, I doubt that doing the screening to text is even worth the effort. My guess would be you could do either or both. But I know there are expensive screening software out there, or so it seemed with just a 10 minute investigation. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.4 Firefox 23.0 Thunderbird 17.0.8 LibreOffice 4.1.04
Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX
Hello Ken, A LyX document is not printed. From a LyX document you generated first a LaTeX document and then from the LaTeX document a PDF document. The PDF document is printed. Of course, the quality of the printout depends on the output device. There is a tiny difference between a DeskJet 500 [1] and a Heidelberg printing machine [2]. ;-) Best regards Marcus [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_Deskjet [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heidelberger_Druckmaschinen -- PMs: m.gloe...@gmx.de
Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX
On 08/29/2013 08:41 PM, Ken Springer wrote: On 8/29/13 8:19 AM, Richard Heck wrote: On 08/29/2013 03:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote: On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer wrote: Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the actual quality of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the quality of the printer being used. Right or wrong? If wrong, why? Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid, whichever printer you use. Obviously, a low resolution printer will give worse printed output. This is especially true since the fonts used are (usually) vector fonts. Would you have a guess as to the minimum resolution a printer would have to have that would show the difference in the quality of the final print? I'm thinking something the average computer user would possibly own, as opposed to a professional printing shop. No, I don't know enough about this, and obviously not as much as you. But even most home laser printers nowadays have enormous resolution. The pages I printed myself to test looked really good to my eyes. Richard
Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX
On 08/29/2013 08:38 PM, Ken Springer wrote: On 8/29/13 1:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote: On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer wrote: Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the actual quality of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the quality of the printer being used. Right or wrong? If wrong, why? Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid, whichever printer you use. So, the typesetting advantages of LyX/LaTeX is retained in a PDF document? That's great, since OS X has included native PDF export from the print dialog for some time. You don't need to use anything like that. LyX exports directly to PDF (which, if I remember correctly, is really a variety of PostScript, tuned for the web). Richard
Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX
On 30/08/2013 1:49 PM, Ken Springer wrote: On 8/29/13 8:08 PM, Steve Litt wrote: When doing stochastic screening, the ideal is to screen at the same dpi as the final printing device. Next best is an even multiple. I.E. screen at 300 dpi for printing on a 600 dpi printer. You also have to decide on the finished physical size of the graphic before you start. I used to use the regular graphic in all the drafts. When I was satisfied with everything, then I applied the stochastic screen. I just searched Inscape+"stochastic screening" and got a bunch of useless stuff including an anti-Obama site (what, how'd Google do that?). Then I did the same thing for LaTeX, nothing ontopic for us. Same thing with "Computer monitors". One site said most inkjet printers use stochastic screening. I suspect all home printers and laser printers now have some kind of stochastic screening routines in their printer drivers. But, I've not tested the idea. An interesting discussion, but a question about Stochastic screening from someone who has only just heard of it. Is this screening something done at print driver level, and not a screen applied to the graphic itself prior to importing? ... therefore the same pdf file could be printed both with and without stochastic screening if the printer/driver support it? Steve
Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX
On 8/29/13 8:08 PM, Steve Litt wrote: On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 18:51:24 -0600 Ken Springer wrote: On 8/29/13 4:47 PM, Steve Litt wrote: On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 10:19:34 -0400 Richard Heck wrote: On 08/29/2013 03:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote: On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer wrote: Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the actual quality of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the quality of the printer being used. Right or wrong? If wrong, why? Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid, whichever printer you use. Obviously, a low resolution printer will give worse printed output. This is especially true since the fonts used are (usually) vector fonts. That said, my two books /Frege's Theorem/ and /Reading Frege's _Grundgesetze_/ were both printed, by the publisher, from a PDF I provided. And they look great, if I do say so myself. I assume they used very good printers! Richard Sort of on topic: After becoming dissatisfied with the 26 minute print time, on my new Brother MFC-8810dw 40ppm printer, of my book "Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting (http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/mg.htm), I set the print resolution down from 1200x1200dpi to 600x600dpi (11 minutes, yeah!), my admittedly old eyes could find no appreciable difference in the print, except for an almost imperceptable lightening at 600dpi. But the images were another matter: They looked better at 600 because 1200 showcased the mistakes and pixellations of the artwork itself. What would have happened if you applied stochastic screening to the images? I'm assuming that would be retained in a PDF file. Deeeud! You're getting so tweak here I had to look up stochastic screening on Wikipedia. The graphics involved were: 1) A photo I took of a wrench 2) Various diagrams I did in Dia, Inkscape and Gimp. I had to look up Dia, and thanks for that. I've added the downloading of the Mac and Windows versions to my to do list. Since I don't believe LaTeX can natively handle .svg, a lot of this depends on the conversion LyX uses (which of course you can configure). Keep in mind also that filesize goes way up with resolution, and that makes it costly to email or download PDFs, and taxes printers in terms of making the engine stop while loading the next big image. .svg is a vector graphics file format. Stochastic screening is for bitmapped files. It works best on lower resolution printers. It's been years since I've use stochastic screening, so I don't know how it would look on a 1200 dpi laser, for instance. But on a 300 dpi laser, you would not believe how "real" a printed a photograph can look. I've got a 20 year old computer in the back room with a desktop publishing program on it that has a stochastic screening module. I've known about stochastic screening for all of five minutes now (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_screening) so let me dazzle you with my opinions... Any laserprinter I ever used used, as far as I know, a certain number of dots per inch, each dot being a certain shade (I use monochrome/grayscale) or color (if you want each page to cost you a dime or a quarter or whatever). The shades are made from dot size, with "dots" being a whole bunch of dots from the dpi measurement. As far as I know, they cannot vary placement of their dots, only shade or color via size (AM). So even if the PDF looked great on the screen, I'd imagine the printer would have limited ability to reproduce the (FM) stochastic screening. You are correct on the dpi part, and contemporary printers can emulate dpi output resolutions lower than what they are capable of. However, you're wrong on each dot being a certain shade. The dot produced by a B&W laser is either black or white. White meaning no toner is applied to the paper. You can't change the color/shade of the toner. Where people go wrong is making the assumption that the dot produced by the printer is a 1:1 ratio with the dot being printed. I.E., one printer dot for each dot/pixel in the photo. In reality, a number of printer dots are used to create the single dot/pixel in a bitmapped graphic file. This is where the line screen frequency, or LPI, comes into play. A square grid of printed dots is used to create a single pixel from the bitmapped graphic. Unless things have changed, the maximum number of possible grey shades is 256. (Actually, it's 257, but that's not a multiple of 2.) So the best possible greyscale picture that you can print has a maximum of 256 shades of grey. Example... For ease of this post, let's say you use a 3X3 square of printer dots to create the single pixel dot in the graphic. And, you want 50% grey. For a single row of pixels from the file, the printer would print something like
Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 18:51:24 -0600 Ken Springer wrote: > On 8/29/13 4:47 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > > On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 10:19:34 -0400 > > Richard Heck wrote: > > > >> On 08/29/2013 03:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote: > >>> On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer > >>> wrote: > Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the > actual quality of the printed output from a LyX document will > depend on the quality of the printer being used. > > Right or wrong? If wrong, why? > > >>> Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the > >>> quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once > >>> exported to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should > >>> be rock-solid, whichever printer you use. > >> > >> Obviously, a low resolution printer will give worse printed output. > >> This is especially true since the fonts used are (usually) vector > >> fonts. > >> > >> That said, my two books /Frege's Theorem/ and /Reading Frege's > >> _Grundgesetze_/ were both printed, by the publisher, from a PDF I > >> provided. And they look great, if I do say so myself. I assume they > >> used very good printers! > >> > >> Richard > > > > Sort of on topic: After becoming dissatisfied with the 26 minute > > print time, on my new Brother MFC-8810dw 40ppm printer, of my book > > "Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting > > (http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/mg.htm), I set the print > > resolution down from 1200x1200dpi to 600x600dpi (11 minutes, > > yeah!), my admittedly old eyes could find no appreciable difference > > in the print, except for an almost imperceptable lightening at > > 600dpi. But the images were another matter: They looked better at > > 600 because 1200 showcased the mistakes and pixellations of the > > artwork itself. > > > What would have happened if you applied stochastic screening to the > images? I'm assuming that would be retained in a PDF file. Deeeud! You're getting so tweak here I had to look up stochastic screening on Wikipedia. The graphics involved were: 1) A photo I took of a wrench 2) Various diagrams I did in Dia, Inkscape and Gimp. Since I don't believe LaTeX can natively handle .svg, a lot of this depends on the conversion LyX uses (which of course you can configure). Keep in mind also that filesize goes way up with resolution, and that makes it costly to email or download PDFs, and taxes printers in terms of making the engine stop while loading the next big image. I've known about stochastic screening for all of five minutes now (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_screening) so let me dazzle you with my opinions... Any laserprinter I ever used used, as far as I know, a certain number of dots per inch, each dot being a certain shade (I use monochrome/grayscale) or color (if you want each page to cost you a dime or a quarter or whatever). The shades are made from dot size, with "dots" being a whole bunch of dots from the dpi measurement. As far as I know, they cannot vary placement of their dots, only shade or color via size (AM). So even if the PDF looked great on the screen, I'd imagine the printer would have limited ability to reproduce the (FM) stochastic screening. Indeed, the Wikipedia page talks of stochastic screening mainly in terms of printing from plates (which I presume assumes print runs of at least 100), and not from laser printers. I just searched Inscape+"stochastic screening" and got a bunch of useless stuff including an anti-Obama site (what, how'd Google do that?). Then I did the same thing for LaTeX, nothing ontopic for us. Same thing with "Computer monitors". One site said most inkjet printers use stochastic screening. I don't think stochastic screening will come into your life unless you're using a very unusual printer, or long-run print at a print house. It won't help me, AFAIK, because today's monitors can't use it. If filesize is no object, just go 1200dpi, and make sure your .svg to .eps conversions are high resolution. If filesize *is* an issue, you appear to know a lot more than I about how to minimize pixelization, moire, and all that stuff. Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance
Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX
On 8/29/13 4:47 PM, Steve Litt wrote: On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 10:19:34 -0400 Richard Heck wrote: On 08/29/2013 03:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote: On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer wrote: Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the actual quality of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the quality of the printer being used. Right or wrong? If wrong, why? Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid, whichever printer you use. Obviously, a low resolution printer will give worse printed output. This is especially true since the fonts used are (usually) vector fonts. That said, my two books /Frege's Theorem/ and /Reading Frege's _Grundgesetze_/ were both printed, by the publisher, from a PDF I provided. And they look great, if I do say so myself. I assume they used very good printers! Richard Sort of on topic: After becoming dissatisfied with the 26 minute print time, on my new Brother MFC-8810dw 40ppm printer, of my book "Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting (http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/mg.htm), I set the print resolution down from 1200x1200dpi to 600x600dpi (11 minutes, yeah!), my admittedly old eyes could find no appreciable difference in the print, except for an almost imperceptable lightening at 600dpi. But the images were another matter: They looked better at 600 because 1200 showcased the mistakes and pixellations of the artwork itself. What would have happened if you applied stochastic screening to the images? I'm assuming that would be retained in a PDF file. To bring this back to on-topicness, the print resulting from LyX looks good at any resolution, always assuming you pick a good font for printing (I like Century Schoolbook). Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.4 Firefox 23.0 Thunderbird 17.0.8 LibreOffice 4.1.04
Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX
On 8/29/13 8:19 AM, Richard Heck wrote: On 08/29/2013 03:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote: On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer wrote: Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the actual quality of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the quality of the printer being used. Right or wrong? If wrong, why? Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid, whichever printer you use. Obviously, a low resolution printer will give worse printed output. This is especially true since the fonts used are (usually) vector fonts. Would you have a guess as to the minimum resolution a printer would have to have that would show the difference in the quality of the final print? I'm thinking something the average computer user would possibly own, as opposed to a professional printing shop. That said, my two books /Frege's Theorem/ and /Reading Frege's _Grundgesetze_/ were both printed, by the publisher, from a PDF I provided. And they look great, if I do say so myself. I assume they used very good printers! Richard -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.4 Firefox 23.0 Thunderbird 17.0.8 LibreOffice 4.1.04
Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX
On 8/29/13 1:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote: On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer wrote: Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the actual quality of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the quality of the printer being used. Right or wrong? If wrong, why? Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid, whichever printer you use. So, the typesetting advantages of LyX/LaTeX is retained in a PDF document? That's great, since OS X has included native PDF export from the print dialog for some time. I'm toying with, and working on, the beginnings of a couple of projects that will end with printing, and I want them to look good. I'd thought about a desktop publishing program for the final setup, but I won't need the power of placing frames and such. But want something better that the average word processor that will also work for me on a daily basis. -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.4 Firefox 23.0 Thunderbird 17.0.8 LibreOffice 4.1.04
Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 10:19:34 -0400 Richard Heck wrote: > On 08/29/2013 03:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote: > > On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer > > wrote: > >> Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the > >> actual quality of the printed output from a LyX document will > >> depend on the quality of the printer being used. > >> > >> Right or wrong? If wrong, why? > >> > > Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the > > quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported > > to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be > > rock-solid, whichever printer you use. > > Obviously, a low resolution printer will give worse printed output. > This is especially true since the fonts used are (usually) vector > fonts. > > That said, my two books /Frege's Theorem/ and /Reading Frege's > _Grundgesetze_/ were both printed, by the publisher, from a PDF I > provided. And they look great, if I do say so myself. I assume they > used very good printers! > > Richard Sort of on topic: After becoming dissatisfied with the 26 minute print time, on my new Brother MFC-8810dw 40ppm printer, of my book "Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting (http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/mg.htm), I set the print resolution down from 1200x1200dpi to 600x600dpi (11 minutes, yeah!), my admittedly old eyes could find no appreciable difference in the print, except for an almost imperceptable lightening at 600dpi. But the images were another matter: They looked better at 600 because 1200 showcased the mistakes and pixellations of the artwork itself. To bring this back to on-topicness, the print resulting from LyX looks good at any resolution, always assuming you pick a good font for printing (I like Century Schoolbook). Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance
Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX
On 08/29/2013 03:59 AM, Liviu Andronic wrote: On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer wrote: Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the actual quality of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the quality of the printer being used. Right or wrong? If wrong, why? Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid, whichever printer you use. Obviously, a low resolution printer will give worse printed output. This is especially true since the fonts used are (usually) vector fonts. That said, my two books /Frege's Theorem/ and /Reading Frege's _Grundgesetze_/ were both printed, by the publisher, from a PDF I provided. And they look great, if I do say so myself. I assume they used very good printers! Richard
Re: Question #2: Printed results from LyX
On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 3:28 AM, Ken Springer wrote: > Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the actual quality > of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the quality of the > printer being used. > > Right or wrong? If wrong, why? > Well, kind of. Of course the printing quality will depend on the quality of the printer and the paper that you use. But once exported to PDF, the typesetting quality of your document should be rock-solid, whichever printer you use. Liviu
Question #2: Printed results from LyX
Much like the speakers in a sound system, it occurs to me the actual quality of the printed output from a LyX document will depend on the quality of the printer being used. Right or wrong? If wrong, why? -- Ken Mac OS X 10.8.4 Firefox 23.0 Thunderbird 17.0.8 LibreOffice 4.1.04