Re: Feedback on dialog for Windows installer (round 2)

[Andrew Parsloe]

On 3/04/2018 11:31 a.m., Scott Kostyshak wrote:

I propose to change the first part to something like:
   Your MiKTeX installation must be updated in order for LyX 2.3.0 to
   work. Choose "Continue" to ...

Then, we will give a link to a Wiki page, as discussed before.

This will allow us to keep the main dialog clear, but at the same time
provide extra details for the power users.

What do you think about that approach? If you and others disagree, I'm
fine with specifying the version number required, and in that case I
agree with you that specifying the dates instead of the repository
number is a good idea.

Scott

I like the proposed wording.

Andrew

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Re: Feedback on dialog for Windows installer (round 2)

[Scott Kostyshak]

On Mon, Apr 02, 2018 at 07:17:57AM +, Baris Erkus wrote:

> I have seen many posts to TeX SE, where users encounters this sort of issues. 
> Most of the time, waiting one or two days solves the issue, which I believe 
> MikTeX developer(s) fix the associated problem.

I've seen many posts like this also. Searching for "[miktex] update" on
tex.se, there are many such posts.

> So, as a conclusion,  my suggestion is not incorporate MikTeX update into LyX 
> setup, and leave that responsibility of having a working (Mik)TeX system to 
> the user in the first place.

I can see why you would prefer that. MiKTeX is such a (in my opinion,
necessarily) complicated system. You are right that the goal of updating
MiKTeX automatically is to save the average user from doing those steps
themselves. I have heard some negative experiences from users, e.g. that
the update does not work or as you mentioned the mirror is not working.
However, I have also heard a lot of positive responses from users for
whom the 2.3.0 installer has worked very well with no issue at all.

> PS: Even if LyX is not changed this way, I hope the detailed experience I 
> give above is helpful for the developers. Sorry for the long post.

Thank you for taking the time to write up your post. I found it helpful
and learned more about MiKTeX. As for the long post, no problem at all,
although (just my personal opinion) I would find it helpful for the
sentences to be organized in paragraphs.

Thank you for this feedback, Barış!

Scott


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Feedback on dialog for Windows installer (round 2)

[Scott Kostyshak]

On Mon, Apr 02, 2018 at 02:38:58PM +, V K wrote:
> Sentence "For most users, choosing "Continue" is the appropriate choice." 
> sounds definately better. But I am not inexperienced user and for me minimum 
> information why should I continue (but more specific than only "LyX 
> requires") is better. A lot of detales would be too complex. "More details" 
> with some information (one sentence about broken installation and link to 
> wiki) would be ideal: who want can go to wiki and read detales, one sentence 
> for not so curious and possibility not to read any burdensome information for 
> totally inexperienced users. Happines for all :).

Sounds good. Thanks for your feedback!

Scott


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Feedback on dialog for Windows installer (round 2)

[Scott Kostyshak]

On Mon, Apr 02, 2018 at 03:02:02AM +, Andrew Parsloe wrote:
> Dear Scott,
> 
> MiKTeX 2.9 has been available since 2010 and the *only* version available
> since 2014; see https://miktex.org/releases. Hence the message in your
> proposed dialogue
> 
>     LyX requires MiKTeX 2.9 or later. Your version is X.X.
>     Choose "Continue" to automatically update MiKTeX now,
>     or "Cancel" to stop the LyX installation. If you do not
>     understand this message, you should choose "Continue".
> 
>                                     Cancel      Continue
> 
> doesn't make much sense (to me). It is the package repository number that is
> critical, currently at 6664 at time of writing (see https://miktex.org/
> under Package Repository) but I don't know what that was at the time the
> update problem arose and in any case it is likely to be confusing to an
> average user.
> 
> I think it would be better to use a date: "LyX requires MiKTeX 2.9 updated
> later than /mm/dd" (and that format of date to avoid ambiguity around
> dd/mm/ versus mm/dd/). Presumably the date can be found from Uwe's
> announcements to lyx-devel.

Thanks for the feedback, Andrew and for pointing out the issue with the
message above. After thinking about this for a bit, I don't think the
average user will actually care what their version number is or what the
required version number is. All they need to know is that MiKTeX needs
to be updated. For advanced users who might be interested in that
information, we can give it in the details on the Wiki page. For
example, on the Wiki page we can list the technical package repository
number that is required, and we can specify the steps to see what
package repository number you're currently at.

So I propose to change the first part to something like:

  Your MiKTeX installation must be updated in order for LyX 2.3.0 to
  work. Choose "Continue" to ...

Then, we will give a link to a Wiki page, as discussed before.

This will allow us to keep the main dialog clear, but at the same time
provide extra details for the power users.

What do you think about that approach? If you and others disagree, I'm
fine with specifying the version number required, and in that case I
agree with you that specifying the dates instead of the repository
number is a good idea.

Scott


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Feedback on dialog for Windows installer (round 2)

[V K]

Sentence "For most users, choosing "Continue" is the appropriate choice." 
sounds definately better. But I am not inexperienced user and for me minimum 
information why should I continue (but more specific than only "LyX requires") 
is better. A lot of detales would be too complex. "More details" with some 
information (one sentence about broken installation and link to wiki) would be 
ideal: who want can go to wiki and read detales, one sentence for not so 
curious and possibility not to read any burdensome information for totally 
inexperienced users. Happines for all :).




   

RE: Feedback on dialog for Windows installer (round 2)

[Baris Erkus]

Hello,



I want to join to this discussion again and would like to clarify my previous 
post that had suggested a totally different approach.



I am a very frequent user of MikTeX in the sense that I update it almost weekly 
basis.



MikTeX is a very “good” TeX system but sometimes it acts awkward.



For example, sometimes the mirror that has been set to be used is not working. 
You have to quit the updater and use another program to select a working mirror.



Sometimes, it gives some error out of nowhere and nothing can be updated. I 
have to wait one or two days, and when I retry to update it just works fine.



Sometimes, I need to do several consecutive updates to achieve a successful 
update and to be sure the system updated correctly, and I have to restart my 
windows.



Sometimes, I just feel that I have to restart my PC after an update to get it 
right because Windows (e.g. version 10) is also changing frequently (e.g. admin 
policies) due to its new approach of updating.



Sometimes, although many packages are available for update, MikTeX will not 
update them but make an update to MikTeX itself. İf this is the case, I need to 
re-run the updater to update the packages.



Sometimes, I download packages to my PC and update them from the PC without 
using Internet. This also happens if I have some issue with my PC’s internet…



In one case, when I updated MikTeX, it removed the setting of the local TeX 
folders, which I had to setup again.



There are other cases, where MikTeX looks like updated correctly and without an 
issue, but in fact, it will not run correctly.



I have seen many posts to TeX SE, where users encounters this sort of issues. 
Most of the time, waiting one or two days solves the issue, which I believe 
MikTeX developer(s) fix the associated problem.



With the new version of MikTeX, I can see that  the updater, package manager 
and configurer are all collected in a new GUI called “MikTeX console” (at least 
just last week I saw it), and I can see that some of the features of the 
previous GUI are not transferred to the new GUI. Maybe update process will be 
more smooth from now on…



In overall, MikTeX update “most of the time” is efficient, but there are cases, 
where the user needs to do additional attempts/operations to complete it. This 
requires a level of understanding TeX, LaTeX and MikTeX.



Similar to MikTeX, I also like to follow the updates of LyX and use them 
whenever they are available.



In the past, I intended to use MikTeX update feature of LyX several times, and 
just by chance I encounter one of the issues listed above that required 
additional steps to complete MikTeX update.



Therefore, I had to cancel LyX update in all of these cases. This was more 
problematic, because it gives the feeling that I may have messed up with LyX 
installation.



After these experiences, I have never used LyX feature of updating MikTeX, and 
whenever I am updating LyX, I first update MikTeX separately.  If there is 
something work with MikTeX, although it looks like it is updated correctly, I 
go back o basic and fix it by running simple “hello world” type .tex documents 
on editor-type programs (e.g. TeXMaker, WinEdt).



I understand that the intend of LyX is make sure that the user does not get 
into the LaTeX, TeX or MikTeX, particulary for new and novice users. However, 
they will eventually need to understand the basics of LaTeX and MikTeX, to 
juggle around when they want to do more things in LaTeX.



I also understand that it would be really convenient for the first time users 
of LyX to have this feature, but the possibilities of having additional 
operations and users canceling LyX setup should also be evaluated.



So, as a conclusion,  my suggestion is not incorporate MikTeX update into LyX 
setup, and leave that responsibility of having a working (Mik)TeX system to the 
user in the first place.



Bests,



BE



PS: Even if LyX is not changed this way, I hope the detailed experience I give 
above is helpful for the developers. Sorry for the long post.











Sent from Mail for Windows 10




From: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org  on behalf of Scott 
Kostyshak 
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2018 8:38:43 PM
To: LyX Users
Subject: Feedback on dialog for Windows installer (round 2)

Dear all,

I have two separate questions:

1. If no edits are made to the following dialog, do you believe the
dialog would be confusing to the *average* LyX user on Windows during
the LyX 2.3.0 installation process?

LyX requires MiKTeX 2.9 or later. Your version is X.X.
Choose "Continue" to automatically update MiKTeX now,
or "Cancel" to stop the LyX installation. If you do not
understand this message, you should choose "Continue".

Cancel   Continue


2. Do you have any suggested edits to improve the 

Re: Feedback on dialog for Windows installer (round 2)

[Andrew Parsloe]

Dear Scott,

MiKTeX 2.9 has been available since 2010 and the *only* version 
available since 2014; see https://miktex.org/releases. Hence the message 
in your proposed dialogue


    LyX requires MiKTeX 2.9 or later. Your version is X.X.
    Choose "Continue" to automatically update MiKTeX now,
    or "Cancel" to stop the LyX installation. If you do not
    understand this message, you should choose "Continue".

                                    Cancel      Continue

doesn't make much sense (to me). It is the package repository number 
that is critical, currently at 6664 at time of writing (see 
https://miktex.org/ under Package Repository) but I don't know what that 
was at the time the update problem arose and in any case it is likely to 
be confusing to an average user.


I think it would be better to use a date: "LyX requires MiKTeX 2.9 
updated later than /mm/dd" (and that format of date to avoid 
ambiguity around dd/mm/ versus mm/dd/). Presumably the date can 
be found from Uwe's announcements to lyx-devel.


Andrew



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Re: Feedback on dialog for Windows installer (round 2)

[Michael Berger]

Hello Scott,

the message under #1 sounds clear and unambiguously to.

Michael


On 01.04.2018 15:05, V K wrote:
Message is quite clear, but "If you do not understand this message, 
you should choose "Continue"." says too little and indirectly states, 
that user is dumb. I've read previous thread and discussion in 
lyx-devel. Maybe this sentence can be replayced with warning about not 
working LyX? Something like "Not upgrading MiKTeX can leave LyX in not 
working condition" ("can broke LyX" would be more simple to 
understand, but isn't correct technically, as I understand). This 
sentence informs user, why it should upgrade, not only urges to 
upgrade. Such warning can be compromise with Uwe too, I think :).


And congratulations with release of such good program.

Valdemaras


On Saturday, March 31, 2018 8:39 PM, Scott Kostyshak 
 wrote:



Dear all,

I have two separate questions:

1. If no edits are made to the following dialog, do you believe the
dialog would be confusing to the *average* LyX user on Windows during
the LyX 2.3.0 installation process?

    LyX requires MiKTeX 2.9 or later. Your version is X.X.
    Choose "Continue" to automatically update MiKTeX now,
    or "Cancel" to stop the LyX installation. If you do not
    understand this message, you should choose "Continue".

                                    Cancel      Continue


2. Do you have any suggested edits to improve the clarity of the above
message to the *average* LyX user on Windows?

Note that this email follows a previous thread [1]. If you did not
follow that thread, no problem at all since it would be good to have a
fresh view.

Thank you for your help!

Scott


[1] 
https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=mid=20180313221335.6asbmcrohug4rrzf%40steph

Re: Feedback on dialog for Windows installer (round 2)

[Scott Kostyshak]

On Sun, Apr 01, 2018 at 04:08:30PM +, Richard Kimberly Heck wrote:
> On 04/01/2018 12:02 PM, Scott Kostyshak wrote:
> > On Sun, Apr 01, 2018 at 01:05:18PM +, V K wrote:
> >> I've read previous thread and discussion in lyx-devel. Maybe this sentence 
> >> can be replayced with warning about not working LyX? Something like "Not 
> >> upgrading MiKTeX can leave LyX in not working condition" ("can broke LyX" 
> >> would be more simple to understand, but isn't correct technically, as I 
> >> understand).
> > We attempted to give that information in the first sentence
> >
> >   LyX requires MiKTeX 2.9 or later.
> >
> > We do not explain, e.g., why LyX requires a newer MiKTeX, in order to
> > keep the message as simple as possible to avoid confusion. Perhaps we
> > could have a "more details" button where we give a longer explanation.
> > Do you think a "more details" button would be a good idea?
> 
> What about a link to a web (wiki) page with more infomation for those
> who want it?

I think that's a good idea. Further, it would allow us to update the
wiki page easily to add more information. I don't know if it is easy to
add a hyperlink in such a dialog. If not, we should make sure that the
text in the dialog is selectable so it is easy to copy/paste.

Scott


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Feedback on dialog for Windows installer (round 2)

[Richard Kimberly Heck]

On 04/01/2018 12:02 PM, Scott Kostyshak wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 01, 2018 at 01:05:18PM +, V K wrote:
>> I've read previous thread and discussion in lyx-devel. Maybe this sentence 
>> can be replayced with warning about not working LyX? Something like "Not 
>> upgrading MiKTeX can leave LyX in not working condition" ("can broke LyX" 
>> would be more simple to understand, but isn't correct technically, as I 
>> understand).
> We attempted to give that information in the first sentence
>
>   LyX requires MiKTeX 2.9 or later.
>
> We do not explain, e.g., why LyX requires a newer MiKTeX, in order to
> keep the message as simple as possible to avoid confusion. Perhaps we
> could have a "more details" button where we give a longer explanation.
> Do you think a "more details" button would be a good idea?

What about a link to a web (wiki) page with more infomation for those
who want it?

Riki

Re: Feedback on dialog for Windows installer (round 2)

[Scott Kostyshak]

On Sun, Apr 01, 2018 at 01:05:18PM +, V K wrote:
> Message is quite clear, but "If you do not understand this message, you 
> should choose "Continue"." says too little and indirectly states, that user 
> is dumb.

Another Windows user I talked to in person said the same thing. They
said that they personally found it funny, but that others might find it
as you said as offending their intelligence.

We can experiment with different phrases containing the same
information. For example, the following could be a replacement:

  For most users, choosing "Continue" is the appropriate choice.

I'm also fine with removing it, if others prefer. The goal was to
provide some advice for users who do not know what MiKTeX is and are
unsure what to do.

> I've read previous thread and discussion in lyx-devel. Maybe this sentence 
> can be replayced with warning about not working LyX? Something like "Not 
> upgrading MiKTeX can leave LyX in not working condition" ("can broke LyX" 
> would be more simple to understand, but isn't correct technically, as I 
> understand).

We attempted to give that information in the first sentence

  LyX requires MiKTeX 2.9 or later.

We do not explain, e.g., why LyX requires a newer MiKTeX, in order to
keep the message as simple as possible to avoid confusion. Perhaps we
could have a "more details" button where we give a longer explanation.
Do you think a "more details" button would be a good idea?

> This sentence informs user, why it should upgrade, not only urges to upgrade. 
> Such warning can be compromise with Uwe too, I think :).

If Uwe preferred a phrase like the one you suggested, I would be fine
with it. I'm not sure that's his preference though. But I should not
make a guess. Uwe, do you agree with V K or have any suggestions on what
a clear message would be? I know you do not agree with adding a message,
but I would really appreciate your advice.

Thanks for your help, V K!

Scott


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Feedback on dialog for Windows installer (round 2)

[V K]

Message is quite clear, but "If you do not understand this message, you should 
choose "Continue"." says too little and indirectly states, that user is dumb. 
I've read previous thread and discussion in lyx-devel. Maybe this sentence can 
be replayced with warning about not working LyX? Something like "Not upgrading 
MiKTeX can leave LyX in not working condition" ("can broke LyX" would be more 
simple to understand, but isn't correct technically, as I understand). This 
sentence informs user, why it should upgrade, not only urges to upgrade. Such 
warning can be compromise with Uwe too, I think :).
And congratulations with release of such good program.
Valdemaras

On Saturday, March 31, 2018 8:39 PM, Scott Kostyshak  
wrote:
 

 Dear all,

I have two separate questions:

1. If no edits are made to the following dialog, do you believe the
dialog would be confusing to the *average* LyX user on Windows during
the LyX 2.3.0 installation process?

    LyX requires MiKTeX 2.9 or later. Your version is X.X.
    Choose "Continue" to automatically update MiKTeX now,
    or "Cancel" to stop the LyX installation. If you do not
    understand this message, you should choose "Continue".

                                    Cancel      Continue


2. Do you have any suggested edits to improve the clarity of the above
message to the *average* LyX user on Windows?

Note that this email follows a previous thread [1]. If you did not
follow that thread, no problem at all since it would be good to have a
fresh view.

Thank you for your help!

Scott


[1] 
https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=mid=20180313221335.6asbmcrohug4rrzf%40steph



   

Re: Feedback on dialog for Windows installer (round 2)

[Scott Kostyshak]

On Sat, Mar 31, 2018 at 07:00:34PM +, Emile Lunardon wrote:
> Does updating Miktex require an Internet connection? or can it be done with
> the Miktex distribution included in the LyX installation bundle?

It requires an internet connection.

Scott


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Feedback on dialog for Windows installer (round 2)

[Emile Lunardon]

Does updating Miktex require an Internet connection? or can it be done with
the Miktex distribution included in the LyX installation bundle?

2018-03-31 19:38 GMT+02:00 Scott Kostyshak :

> Dear all,
>
> I have two separate questions:
>
> 1. If no edits are made to the following dialog, do you believe the
> dialog would be confusing to the *average* LyX user on Windows during
> the LyX 2.3.0 installation process?
>
> LyX requires MiKTeX 2.9 or later. Your version is X.X.
> Choose "Continue" to automatically update MiKTeX now,
> or "Cancel" to stop the LyX installation. If you do not
> understand this message, you should choose "Continue".
>
> Cancel   Continue
>
>
> 2. Do you have any suggested edits to improve the clarity of the above
> message to the *average* LyX user on Windows?
>
> Note that this email follows a previous thread [1]. If you did not
> follow that thread, no problem at all since it would be good to have a
> fresh view.
>
> Thank you for your help!
>
> Scott
>
>
> [1] https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=mid=20180313221335.
> 6asbmcrohug4rrzf%40steph
>
>

Re: Feedback on dialog for Windows installer (round 2)

[Paul A. Rubin]

On 03/31/2018 02:14 PM, Scott Kostyshak wrote:

On Sat, Mar 31, 2018 at 06:00:36PM +, Paul A. Rubin wrote:


It seems clear enough to me, but is "continue" the correct thing to do if
you're confused? I haven't used Windows (or MiKTeX) in a while, but I gather
there are potential problems with doing an update. If that's the case, the
instructions seem to be saying "if you're confused, click continue and let
us maybe break your MiKTeX installation".

On the other hand, if the correct choice is to be conservative and click
cancel, maybe we should throw a life preserver? "... you should choose
'Cancel', after which you might want to seek help on the LyX user mailing
list" (or some such)?

Good points and I don't disagree with your concerns. However, I think we
might consider sacrificing some of the concerns like the ones you
discuss above for the benefit of being as clear and as simple as
possible.

Can I at least conclude from your above comments that the proposed
dialog would be better than automatically updating MiKTeX during the LyX
installation without first asking the user?

Scott
Definitely. Also, while I generally don't favor making changes without 
"informed consent", I suspect that anyone who is confused by the message 
will also have no real grasp of the nuances of updating MiKTeX v. not 
updating MiKTeX. So maybe defaulting to continue is okay.


Paul

Re: Feedback on dialog for Windows installer (round 2)

[Scott Kostyshak]

On Sat, Mar 31, 2018 at 06:00:36PM +, Paul A. Rubin wrote:

> It seems clear enough to me, but is "continue" the correct thing to do if
> you're confused? I haven't used Windows (or MiKTeX) in a while, but I gather
> there are potential problems with doing an update. If that's the case, the
> instructions seem to be saying "if you're confused, click continue and let
> us maybe break your MiKTeX installation".
> 
> On the other hand, if the correct choice is to be conservative and click
> cancel, maybe we should throw a life preserver? "... you should choose
> 'Cancel', after which you might want to seek help on the LyX user mailing
> list" (or some such)?

Good points and I don't disagree with your concerns. However, I think we
might consider sacrificing some of the concerns like the ones you
discuss above for the benefit of being as clear and as simple as
possible.

Can I at least conclude from your above comments that the proposed
dialog would be better than automatically updating MiKTeX during the LyX
installation without first asking the user?

Scott


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Feedback on dialog for Windows installer (round 2)

[Paul A. Rubin]

On 03/31/2018 01:38 PM, Scott Kostyshak wrote:

Dear all,

I have two separate questions:

1. If no edits are made to the following dialog, do you believe the
dialog would be confusing to the *average* LyX user on Windows during
the LyX 2.3.0 installation process?

 LyX requires MiKTeX 2.9 or later. Your version is X.X.
 Choose "Continue" to automatically update MiKTeX now,
 or "Cancel" to stop the LyX installation. If you do not
 understand this message, you should choose "Continue".

 Cancel   Continue


2. Do you have any suggested edits to improve the clarity of the above
message to the *average* LyX user on Windows?

Note that this email follows a previous thread [1]. If you did not
follow that thread, no problem at all since it would be good to have a
fresh view.

Thank you for your help!

Scott


[1] 
https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=mid=20180313221335.6asbmcrohug4rrzf%40steph

It seems clear enough to me, but is "continue" the correct thing to do 
if you're confused? I haven't used Windows (or MiKTeX) in a while, but I 
gather there are potential problems with doing an update. If that's the 
case, the instructions seem to be saying "if you're confused, click 
continue and let us maybe break your MiKTeX installation".


On the other hand, if the correct choice is to be conservative and click 
cancel, maybe we should throw a life preserver? "... you should choose 
'Cancel', after which you might want to seek help on the LyX user 
mailing list" (or some such)?


Paul