Re: [M100] New M100 hardware
Jeroen:
Congratulations on your progress and don't give up! One person has been
working on a similar form factor device for gaming for over 6 years now:
https://liliputing.com/2019/12/dragonbox-pyra-prototypes-begin-shipping-open-source-handheld-gaming-computer.html
Regards,
rcs
On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 9:13 PM Mitch Parker wrote:
> This looks great! I want one.
>
> On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 5:25 AM Jeroen Domburg wrote:
>
>>
>> More updates! In general, I'll try not to flood the list too much, but
>> I'm too happy with this result not to share it. Long story short, my
>> 3d-printer came in. It's not one of those hot plastic squirter types,
>> but a thing that projects UV through a LCD to harden out resin that's on
>> top of it. The big plus of those is that you can get a really good
>> resolution, which kinda is needed for tiny projects like this.
>>
>> Well, I've been modelling in OpenSCAD for a while to create a case for
>> the prototype I had, mostly to see if I can get the keys working and
>> printed out correctly. The case still is intended for the prototype PCB
>> so it has space for the ugly debugging buttons on the side, but
>> otherwise I put most of the things in I also want in the final case,
>> including e.g. embossed keycaps.
>>
>> So it took me a few tries to get everything working; the current case is
>> the 5th attempt or so... two attempts to figure out there is some 'light
>> leakage' in the printer that make the parts come out a hair thicker than
>> I specify, and two attempts to figure out it's really a good idea to
>> make sure the first layer adheres to the building plate... ah well, new
>> toy, you're going to get that.
>>
>> Anyway, the final result ('final' mostly because my weekend is almost
>> over):
>> http://j0h.nl/qgIC/full
>>
>> I'm really happy with this. The keycaps embossing (well, it's actually
>> debossing, the letters are lower than the surface of the key) didn't
>> come out like this from the start, but I used a trick: paint over the
>> keycaps with a Sharpie or so, and the ink will flow into the letter.
>> Wipe the top clean, and the ink in the letter remains.
>>
>> Usability is hard to convey in an email, but that's unfortunately not a
>> bit I'm happy with: some keys have a nice 'snap' when they make the
>> metal domes under them fold, but other keys have no tacile feedback at
>> all. Also, I made the keys concave, like I think the M100 does as well;
>> that may not be suited well for buttons as small as this one. Food for
>> thought...
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Jeroen
>>
>>
--
*Níl aon tinteán mar do thinteán féin. *[Irish Gaelic]
(There is no fireside like your own fireside.)
Re: [M100] New M100 hardware
This looks great! I want one.
On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 5:25 AM Jeroen Domburg wrote:
>
> More updates! In general, I'll try not to flood the list too much, but
> I'm too happy with this result not to share it. Long story short, my
> 3d-printer came in. It's not one of those hot plastic squirter types,
> but a thing that projects UV through a LCD to harden out resin that's on
> top of it. The big plus of those is that you can get a really good
> resolution, which kinda is needed for tiny projects like this.
>
> Well, I've been modelling in OpenSCAD for a while to create a case for
> the prototype I had, mostly to see if I can get the keys working and
> printed out correctly. The case still is intended for the prototype PCB
> so it has space for the ugly debugging buttons on the side, but
> otherwise I put most of the things in I also want in the final case,
> including e.g. embossed keycaps.
>
> So it took me a few tries to get everything working; the current case is
> the 5th attempt or so... two attempts to figure out there is some 'light
> leakage' in the printer that make the parts come out a hair thicker than
> I specify, and two attempts to figure out it's really a good idea to
> make sure the first layer adheres to the building plate... ah well, new
> toy, you're going to get that.
>
> Anyway, the final result ('final' mostly because my weekend is almost
> over):
> http://j0h.nl/qgIC/full
>
> I'm really happy with this. The keycaps embossing (well, it's actually
> debossing, the letters are lower than the surface of the key) didn't
> come out like this from the start, but I used a trick: paint over the
> keycaps with a Sharpie or so, and the ink will flow into the letter.
> Wipe the top clean, and the ink in the letter remains.
>
> Usability is hard to convey in an email, but that's unfortunately not a
> bit I'm happy with: some keys have a nice 'snap' when they make the
> metal domes under them fold, but other keys have no tacile feedback at
> all. Also, I made the keys concave, like I think the M100 does as well;
> that may not be suited well for buttons as small as this one. Food for
> thought...
>
> Cheers,
> Jeroen
>
>
Re: [M100] New M100 hardware
That looks really cool. I'm surprised how well the tiny keycaps came
out.
On Sun, 2019-12-29 at 18:27 +0800, Jeroen Domburg wrote:
> More updates! In general, I'll try not to flood the list too much,
> but
> I'm too happy with this result not to share it. Long story short, my
> 3d-printer came in. It's not one of those hot plastic squirter types,
> but a thing that projects UV through a LCD to harden out resin that's
> on
> top of it. The big plus of those is that you can get a really good
> resolution, which kinda is needed for tiny projects like this.
>
> Well, I've been modelling in OpenSCAD for a while to create a case
> for
> the prototype I had, mostly to see if I can get the keys working and
> printed out correctly. The case still is intended for the prototype
> PCB
> so it has space for the ugly debugging buttons on the side, but
> otherwise I put most of the things in I also want in the final case,
> including e.g. embossed keycaps.
>
> So it took me a few tries to get everything working; the current case
> is
> the 5th attempt or so... two attempts to figure out there is some
> 'light
> leakage' in the printer that make the parts come out a hair thicker
> than
> I specify, and two attempts to figure out it's really a good idea to
> make sure the first layer adheres to the building plate... ah well,
> new
> toy, you're going to get that.
>
> Anyway, the final result ('final' mostly because my weekend is almost
> over):
> http://j0h.nl/qgIC/full
>
> I'm really happy with this. The keycaps embossing (well, it's
> actually
> debossing, the letters are lower than the surface of the key) didn't
> come out like this from the start, but I used a trick: paint over the
> keycaps with a Sharpie or so, and the ink will flow into the letter.
> Wipe the top clean, and the ink in the letter remains.
>
> Usability is hard to convey in an email, but that's unfortunately not
> a
> bit I'm happy with: some keys have a nice 'snap' when they make the
> metal domes under them fold, but other keys have no tacile feedback
> at
> all. Also, I made the keys concave, like I think the M100 does as
> well;
> that may not be suited well for buttons as small as this one. Food
> for
> thought...
>
> Cheers,
> Jeroen
>
Re: [M100] New M100 hardware
More updates! In general, I'll try not to flood the list too much, but
I'm too happy with this result not to share it. Long story short, my
3d-printer came in. It's not one of those hot plastic squirter types,
but a thing that projects UV through a LCD to harden out resin that's on
top of it. The big plus of those is that you can get a really good
resolution, which kinda is needed for tiny projects like this.
Well, I've been modelling in OpenSCAD for a while to create a case for
the prototype I had, mostly to see if I can get the keys working and
printed out correctly. The case still is intended for the prototype PCB
so it has space for the ugly debugging buttons on the side, but
otherwise I put most of the things in I also want in the final case,
including e.g. embossed keycaps.
So it took me a few tries to get everything working; the current case is
the 5th attempt or so... two attempts to figure out there is some 'light
leakage' in the printer that make the parts come out a hair thicker than
I specify, and two attempts to figure out it's really a good idea to
make sure the first layer adheres to the building plate... ah well, new
toy, you're going to get that.
Anyway, the final result ('final' mostly because my weekend is almost over):
http://j0h.nl/qgIC/full
I'm really happy with this. The keycaps embossing (well, it's actually
debossing, the letters are lower than the surface of the key) didn't
come out like this from the start, but I used a trick: paint over the
keycaps with a Sharpie or so, and the ink will flow into the letter.
Wipe the top clean, and the ink in the letter remains.
Usability is hard to convey in an email, but that's unfortunately not a
bit I'm happy with: some keys have a nice 'snap' when they make the
metal domes under them fold, but other keys have no tacile feedback at
all. Also, I made the keys concave, like I think the M100 does as well;
that may not be suited well for buttons as small as this one. Food for
thought...
Cheers,
Jeroen
Re: [M100] New M100 hardware
On Fri, Dec 27, 2019 at 8:31 PM Jeroen Domburg wrote: > On 12/26/19 8:20 PM, Jay Vaughan wrote: > > Also thinking of some options for data exchange. Emulating a TPDD seems > to be the most straightforward route, although I also love the 'tape > emulation' CloudT does. Glad you like it. I picked it because it leveraged the built-in ability of the laptop. But it's a file bridge to the browser. In your case a TPDD emulator is probably better unless you're planning an easily accessed facility for operating the device outside of the emulation. > For the TPDD I probably need software support, I > seem to remember it's not in the standard ROM, right? Correct. > Any option ROMs > that support it? TS-DOS. > In general, are there any option ROMs that would be > nice to have 'baked into' the system? > > SuperROM, TS-DOS and MForth are my favorites. -- John.
Re: [M100] New M100 hardware
On 12/26/19 8:20 PM, Jay Vaughan wrote: > I totally love the idea. Will follow your progress with great interest! > > j. Cool! If the regulars here don't object, I'll be posting my progress to the list as I go along. I've been working on some things. First of all, the M100 emulator I've been whipping up is now finished enough that it can be qualified as 'functional'. The processor, ROM, RAM, RTC and PIO chips all are implemented in such a way that the OS is happy, as long as you don't do weird things like trying to set the time or making use of the casette, modem or serial port. So, time to port the thing to the PCB I still had. The PCB contains a CPU that I mostly picked for power efficiency (the idea was to run the entire operation of a button-cell sized LiIon) and runs at 64MHz. I took some time to implement the LCD routines and ported the half-finished emulator to the CPU. That did not took much time; as I developed the emulator for portability, I could easily replace the UI with microcontroller-related functions. After implementing some simple but working code for the keyboard and debugging a bit more, I think I can now show you the working prototype for the smallest Model 100 in the world: http://j0h.nl/qQEC/full (And yes, that 'print' statement was painstakenly entered through the tiny, key-less, unlabeled set of metal domes pretending to be the keyboard). Everything still is somewhat duct-taped together on the software level: there is no real-time reference that the emulator uses, so emulation speed is somewhat unstable. I seem to be getting about 50% of the speed of a real Model 100. Luckily, this seems to be all because the simplistic code I whipped up to update the LCD uses a lot of CPU time: if I only take the time spent on emulation, it runs at about 130% of a real M100, which makes me think getting this thing to run realistically shouldn't be that hard. I'm also mostly happy with power consumption. It will go up a bit if I switch to a WiFi-capable chip, however at the moment it is about 10mA. With the dinky little battery in the photo, that means I should be able to get a lifetime of 13 hours. Still enough to do: the emulation of the M100 isn't complete yet, I haven't even started on a case for the thing, and if I want to switch CPUs, I'll probably re-design the entire PCB I used, as I nowadays use a different PCB program than I used to (gEDA then vs KiCad now.) Also thinking of some options for data exchange. Emulating a TPDD seems to be the most straightforward route, although I also love the 'tape emulation' CloudT does. For the TPDD I probably need software support, I seem to remember it's not in the standard ROM, right? Any option ROMs that support it? In general, are there any option ROMs that would be nice to have 'baked into' the system? Cheers, Jeroen
Re: [M100] New M100 hardware
I love this idea also. Where do I sign up? On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 8:21 AM Jay Vaughan wrote: > > > On 26.12.2019, at 11:43, m...@j0h.nl wrote: > > I also decided I would keep on doing what I originally had in mind - a > tiny keychain-sized but otherwise fully functional Model 100. > > > > I totally love the idea. Will follow your progress with great interest! > > j. >
Re: [M100] New M100 hardware
> On 26.12.2019, at 11:43, m...@j0h.nl wrote: > > I also decided I would keep on doing what I originally had in mind - a > tiny keychain-sized but otherwise fully functional Model 100. I totally love the idea. Will follow your progress with great interest! j.
Re: [M100] New M100 hardware
Digging up an old thread: Hi! (Also hoping this doesn't come through twice; if it does, apologies for the 2nd copy.) Sorry for not responding for a while, seems I misconfigured procmail and all the m100 list messages got redirected to some obscure mailfolder... so hency my reply half a year later. Ah well, this turned out to be a long-term project after all. After some feedback from the list last time I posted, I got kinda demotivated - seems the audience here isn't that interested in the keychain-size M100 I had in mind... perhaps I could scale things up, add ports, ...? and I kinda lost sight of what I wanted to do. Meanwhile, some other things also happened in life, caused me to drop the project. When I got my time back, other interesting stuff got a higher priority, and before you know, a year passes. I recently found the PCB of this project back in a drawer. I have a nice 3d-printer on order, so one of the things I worried about (the mechanics of a tiny DIY physical keyboard) will be something I can iterate on way faster that way. I also started working on an emulator for the Model 100 - I know about VirtualT and others, but I haven't found an emulator that was easy to strip down to run on a microcontroller, and I don't mind building something from scratch; as coding goes, emulators are pretty fun to do. At the moment, it still runs on a PC and it already boots the ROM - I can't check anything else as I haven't hooked up a keyboard yet. I also decided I would keep on doing what I originally had in mind - a tiny keychain-sized but otherwise fully functional Model 100. I am sure you guys would like to see all sorts of bells and whistles and other sizes, but to be real - I'm doing this as a hobby next to a full-time job and I'm not going to be in any state to mass-produce this thing any time soon. By creating what I want and then releasing the schematics, sources and drawings under an open-source license, hopefully others can customize that and build whatever they want. Plan is perhaps to change chips - the old design had an STM32, for ultra-low power so the M100 would work forever on a rechargable coin cell, but I work for Espressif and we make some really nice WiFi chips that are powerful enough to easily emulate a M100. With some hackery I may be able to combine WiFi with the M100 OS in such a way that documents on the tiny M100 will automatically get synced with a server. That way, it would actually be usable - you have a small keyboard to type out whatever thoughts you have, or work on a small BASIC program on the go, and when you come home, the files will already be accessible on your laptop. It could also work as a modem, allowing you to Telnet into all the BBSses, MOOs etc that are out there. This solution will be a tad more power-intensive, but with a bit of luck I'll still get more run-time out of a tiny LiIon than the original M100. Cheers, Jeroen On 8/22/19 5:34 AM, Comet wrote: > Hello Jeroen, > > We haven't heard from you lately.?? The model 100 bus and option ROM > port are useful, as are the bar code reader port, etc. > I highly recommend that you ensure that your sound emulation is good > -- music/sound processing is one of the "killer apps" for me.?? :-) > > On 6/2/2018 4:04 AM, Jeroen Domburg wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> TL;DR: I'm building a tiny M102. >> >> Let me first re-introduce myself on this list. Hi, I'm Jeroen, also >> known as Sprite_tm on the wider Internets. I was on this list around >> 2001, which is way longer ago than I thought it was. At that time, I >> wanted to see if I could convert the Olivetti M10 I bought at a flea >> market to accept M100 roms. I actually succeeded: took but a small >> conversion routine for the different keyboard layout to make the M100 >> ROM work in the M10. Talked to Rick Hanson at that time to ask if he >> could send me some ROM images. I'm sad to read he has passed a while >> ago... always seemed like such a pleasant guy in the email >> conversations. >> >> Anyway, why am I back? I nowadays live in Shanghai, doing electronics >> stuff, and recently I directed my hobby into re-making the machines I >> enjoyed back in the days This already has resulted in a matchbox-sized >> Game Boy >> (https://hackaday.com/2016/11/28/tiniest-game-boy-hides-in-your-pocket/), >> >> and a tiny Macintosh Plus (http://spritesmods.com/?art=minimacplus). >> >> Now, I decided to see if I could do something similar to this: make a >> tiny version of the TRS80 Model 100 or 102 (haven't decided yet). The >> plan is to use a newfangled low-power STM32 ARM processor for this; the >> processors that are around nowadays are actually pretty quick (80MHz), >> have a fair amount of RAM (64K, twice what the M100 had at maximum >> capacity!) and are even more efficient than the 80c85 (a few micro-amps >> per megahertz). Also, they have a bunch of peripherals integrated, so I >> can get away with not much more than that chip. >> >> Here in China, it's actually pretty easy
Re: [M100] New M100 hardware
Hi Jeroen, I also did some work to make an m10 accept m100 roms.. approach was to change the m100 main rom to run in the m10. Could you share your solution? I've posted my patches at club100. I would love to make improvements where possible. Thx Steve On Wednesday, August 21, 2019, Comet wrote: > Hello Jeroen, > > We haven't heard from you lately.?? The model 100 bus and option ROM port > are useful, as are the bar code reader port, etc. > I highly recommend that you ensure that your sound emulation is good -- > music/sound processing is one of the "killer apps" for me.?? :-) > > On 6/2/2018 4:04 AM, Jeroen Domburg wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> TL;DR: I'm building a tiny M102. >> >> Let me first re-introduce myself on this list. Hi, I'm Jeroen, also >> known as Sprite_tm on the wider Internets. I was on this list around >> 2001, which is way longer ago than I thought it was. At that time, I >> wanted to see if I could convert the Olivetti M10 I bought at a flea >> market to accept M100 roms. I actually succeeded: took but a small >> conversion routine for the different keyboard layout to make the M100 >> ROM work in the M10. Talked to Rick Hanson at that time to ask if he >> could send me some ROM images. I'm sad to read he has passed a while >> ago... always seemed like such a pleasant guy in the email conversations. >> >> Anyway, why am I back? I nowadays live in Shanghai, doing electronics >> stuff, and recently I directed my hobby into re-making the machines I >> enjoyed back in the days This already has resulted in a matchbox-sized >> Game Boy >> (https://hackaday.com/2016/11/28/tiniest-game-boy-hides-in-your-pocket/), >> and a tiny Macintosh Plus (http://spritesmods.com/?art=minimacplus). >> >> Now, I decided to see if I could do something similar to this: make a >> tiny version of the TRS80 Model 100 or 102 (haven't decided yet). The >> plan is to use a newfangled low-power STM32 ARM processor for this; the >> processors that are around nowadays are actually pretty quick (80MHz), >> have a fair amount of RAM (64K, twice what the M100 had at maximum >> capacity!) and are even more efficient than the 80c85 (a few micro-amps >> per megahertz). Also, they have a bunch of peripherals integrated, so I >> can get away with not much more than that chip. >> >> Here in China, it's actually pretty easy to get the basic parts for >> this. The most important part, obviously, are the LCD and the keys, so I >> decided to start there. I found a nice and tiny (and cheap!) 256x64 >> display, which could be a nice stand-in for the 240x64 LCD in the >> original hardware. To test it out, I connected it to my laptop and did a >> hack to get VirtualT outputting data to it: >> http://j0h.nl/AqkB >> (And yes, it's a bad picture... I shouldn't take pics in bad lighting >> around midnight, I guess. For reference, the purple thing underneath is >> a credit-card sized metro transportation card.) >> >> For the keyboard, I decided to go with the bare metal domes you >> sometimes see in somewhat cheap-ish but still ok feeling keyboards for >> remote controls, old-school brick phones etc. The nice thing is that >> these domes are about US$0.005 each. The bad thing is that they need a >> specific PCB layout to work... so I had to make a PCB for this. Luckily, >> this is also cheap-ish here, although the gold-plating set me back a few >> quid more than I'd liked, and I'll probably re-spin these because they >> have a few mistakes in them. The keyboard part seems to work, however. >> Here it is while building it up: >> http://j0h.nl/AaoB >> >> And here is where I am now. I've used kapton to hold down the rubber >> domes, and I can actually already type on this; the domes are all well >> worth the half a cent each I paid for them, nice and clicky. I also >> installed the microprocessor and USB-port, and at this stage I can blink >> the power LED, so at least the hardware seems mostly okay. >> http://j0h.nl/AKsB >> http://j0h.nl/B6wB >> >> >> So, why am I posting this? I dunno, I like writing about this I guess, >> and maybe you guys have some good ideas for continuing. I'm pretty sure >> I can write the emulator without too much effort. The USB port is >> probably going to be used for a serial port; I may also use it to upload >> things like option ROMs. (The microcontroller has 256K of flash, so I >> should be able to fit a few.) I also need to think about a case: I have >> a pretty kick-ass Formlabs 3d-printer at work, but my workshop does not >> have many mechanical tools. In the end, I'll also add a LiIon battery: a >> tiny 150mAh one probably is long enough to let the entire thing actively >> work for 80 hours or so. >> >> Hope a project like this is appreciated on this list; if not, I'll >> happily keep working on this in silence. My experience with the M100 is >> nil, however, so if you people see things I missed to make it an even >> better M102 replica, I'd love to hear this. >> >> Cheers, >> Jeroen >> >> >> >> >> >> >>
Re: [M100] New M100 hardware
Hello Jeroen, We haven't heard from you lately.?? The model 100 bus and option ROM port are useful, as are the bar code reader port, etc. I highly recommend that you ensure that your sound emulation is good -- music/sound processing is one of the "killer apps" for me.?? :-) On 6/2/2018 4:04 AM, Jeroen Domburg wrote: Hi all, TL;DR: I'm building a tiny M102. Let me first re-introduce myself on this list. Hi, I'm Jeroen, also known as Sprite_tm on the wider Internets. I was on this list around 2001, which is way longer ago than I thought it was. At that time, I wanted to see if I could convert the Olivetti M10 I bought at a flea market to accept M100 roms. I actually succeeded: took but a small conversion routine for the different keyboard layout to make the M100 ROM work in the M10. Talked to Rick Hanson at that time to ask if he could send me some ROM images. I'm sad to read he has passed a while ago... always seemed like such a pleasant guy in the email conversations. Anyway, why am I back? I nowadays live in Shanghai, doing electronics stuff, and recently I directed my hobby into re-making the machines I enjoyed back in the days This already has resulted in a matchbox-sized Game Boy (https://hackaday.com/2016/11/28/tiniest-game-boy-hides-in-your-pocket/), and a tiny Macintosh Plus (http://spritesmods.com/?art=minimacplus). Now, I decided to see if I could do something similar to this: make a tiny version of the TRS80 Model 100 or 102 (haven't decided yet). The plan is to use a newfangled low-power STM32 ARM processor for this; the processors that are around nowadays are actually pretty quick (80MHz), have a fair amount of RAM (64K, twice what the M100 had at maximum capacity!) and are even more efficient than the 80c85 (a few micro-amps per megahertz). Also, they have a bunch of peripherals integrated, so I can get away with not much more than that chip. Here in China, it's actually pretty easy to get the basic parts for this. The most important part, obviously, are the LCD and the keys, so I decided to start there. I found a nice and tiny (and cheap!) 256x64 display, which could be a nice stand-in for the 240x64 LCD in the original hardware. To test it out, I connected it to my laptop and did a hack to get VirtualT outputting data to it: http://j0h.nl/AqkB (And yes, it's a bad picture... I shouldn't take pics in bad lighting around midnight, I guess. For reference, the purple thing underneath is a credit-card sized metro transportation card.) For the keyboard, I decided to go with the bare metal domes you sometimes see in somewhat cheap-ish but still ok feeling keyboards for remote controls, old-school brick phones etc. The nice thing is that these domes are about US$0.005 each. The bad thing is that they need a specific PCB layout to work... so I had to make a PCB for this. Luckily, this is also cheap-ish here, although the gold-plating set me back a few quid more than I'd liked, and I'll probably re-spin these because they have a few mistakes in them. The keyboard part seems to work, however. Here it is while building it up: http://j0h.nl/AaoB And here is where I am now. I've used kapton to hold down the rubber domes, and I can actually already type on this; the domes are all well worth the half a cent each I paid for them, nice and clicky. I also installed the microprocessor and USB-port, and at this stage I can blink the power LED, so at least the hardware seems mostly okay. http://j0h.nl/AKsB http://j0h.nl/B6wB So, why am I posting this? I dunno, I like writing about this I guess, and maybe you guys have some good ideas for continuing. I'm pretty sure I can write the emulator without too much effort. The USB port is probably going to be used for a serial port; I may also use it to upload things like option ROMs. (The microcontroller has 256K of flash, so I should be able to fit a few.) I also need to think about a case: I have a pretty kick-ass Formlabs 3d-printer at work, but my workshop does not have many mechanical tools. In the end, I'll also add a LiIon battery: a tiny 150mAh one probably is long enough to let the entire thing actively work for 80 hours or so. Hope a project like this is appreciated on this list; if not, I'll happily keep working on this in silence. My experience with the M100 is nil, however, so if you people see things I missed to make it an even better M102 replica, I'd love to hear this. Cheers, Jeroen
Re: [M100] New M100 hardware
> In the realm of connectivity, there's been a fair amount of playing > around with bluetooth serial on M100s. Incorporating a BT serial radio > might be nice. To be fair, I work for a company that makes WiFi/BT chips with a pretty kick-arse CPU in them (the tiny Mac as well as the tiny GameBoy are made with that chip - on that note, if you allow me the small plug, you can actually get the tiny game console yourself: https://www.crowdsupply.com/teampocket/pocketsprite ) and I have been thinking on putting that in, giving the T100 the capability to just dial into Telnet-based BBSses from whereever. The main reason I did not do this is power draw: the ESP32 (the chip in question) can easily eat up 50mA or so when working. (On second thought - that idea may need revisiting in the short to medium future. I seem to recall that the SDK team got light sleep to work, allowing the thing to go to sleep when it has finished emulating the cycles for a period. That could bring down the power usage. Hmm. Would mean no USB anymore, however, as the ESP32 lacks that particular interface.) In general, one of my first design ideas was to allow the entire thing to run on a coin cell - that lead to my choice of a member of the very efficient STM32L422 chip. (Which, as Ken mentioned, has a limited amount of flash and RAM.) Maybe I should just assume a halfway decent LiIon battery instead and skimp a bit less on the power. (Would also allow me to use an OLED screen like https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.16.3a8827c8g0S1uW=540058249955=1=4#detail - I don't really want to skimp on size, but these OLEDs have an excellent contrast which may help people with bad eyesight. Would look less like a 'real' Model T then, however... > For the serial port UART, it might be nice to increase the RX buffer > size to allow the slow CPU more time to catch up. For an emulated > machine that might not be important, but might consider it. Sure! I'm doing serial over USB anyway, right now, so I can make the buffers as large or small as I need. Lastly, implementing on-board storage in the form of an internal emulated TPDD would be awesome, esp if the USB could present the emulated disk as a mass storage gadget. That's actually pretty easy to implement. Cheers, Jeroen On 02/07/2018 12:24 AM, Josh Malone wrote: > For me, I can think of a very few things that need "improving" or > "fixing" on the M100: > > > For the serial port UART, it might be nice to increase the RX buffer > size to allow the slow CPU more time to catch up. For an emulated > machine that might not be important, but might consider it. > > Lastly, implementing on-board storage in the form of an internal > emulated TPDD would be awesome, esp if the USB could present the > emulated disk as a mass storage gadget. > > -Josh >
Re: [M100] New M100 hardware
For me, I can think of a very few things that need "improving" or "fixing" on the M100: In the realm of connectivity, there's been a fair amount of playing around with bluetooth serial on M100s. Incorporating a BT serial radio might be nice. For the serial port UART, it might be nice to increase the RX buffer size to allow the slow CPU more time to catch up. For an emulated machine that might not be important, but might consider it. Lastly, implementing on-board storage in the form of an internal emulated TPDD would be awesome, esp if the USB could present the emulated disk as a mass storage gadget. -Josh
Re: [M100] New M100 hardware
Hi Jeroen, First of all, welcome back to the list! Oh, and I'm super jealous you are living in Shangahi. I lived in Shenzehen for 2 years from 2007 to 2009 and loved it. Met my wife there an now we have to kids living in San Diego. We travelled back to China for a 3 week vacation back in August. I can see you certainly like making things small. That is cool! They wouldn't be very useful to me as my eyesight isn't what it used to be 40 years ago, but it is still cool nontheless. As mentioned, the only real difference between the 100 and 102 is that the 102 has a slightly thinner body with a slightly sloped top. At least from the outside. The inside uses different components to achieve this, but the ROM code and functionality is basically the same. For emulation, it should be very easy to use the C++ files from VirtualT. The basic emulation exists in only a few and the rest is just fluff (memory editors, assembler, printer emulations, etc.). I could help identify the 4 or 5 files you would need if you are interested in this approach. If you are looking forward to writing your own emulator, then I am happy to provide guidance there also. Also, why use an STM32 processor with so little SRAM? The 64 pin parts are only 3mm wider and give you up to 320K RAM plus 1M Flash. Seems like it would be worth the extra real estate for that. Anyway, cool project, keep us posted. Ken On 2/6/18 6:56 AM, Jeroen Domburg wrote: Groeten terug! Leuk dat er ook Nederlanders op deze lijst zitten. Yes, I want to make a small one. First of all, it's kinda my thing; to see how small I can possibly make it: making a big Model T replacement actually is pretty simple with current technology. I think in this case it does actually have an added advantage: this Model T is small enough to put in your back pocket if you want to. Apart from that, this is a hobby project, and smaller = cheaper: the costs for the PCB increase quadratic when making something bigger; the cost for 3d-printing even increases cubic. Especially if I ever make this into a commercial product, I'd say a $50 pocket device would be more attractive than a $200 'full-size' device, especially with all the real, second-hand model Ts out there. USB is going to be a thing, most certainly. I have a connector on for recharging anyway, and I also plan to emulate a serial port on it, plus a way to put extra ROMs on it that way. Cheers, Jeroen On 02/06/2018 10:00 PM, VANDEN BOSSCHE JAN wrote: Hallo Jeroen, Groetjes uit de lage landen. Ik doe verder in het Engels, dan verstaat iedereen het hier. That is very impressive tinkering. But it is obvious that you also have the technical skills and knowledge to make such things. You want to build a replica of the Model T (not much difference between a Model 100 or a Tandy 102) with modern technology, but why ... small ? Wouldn't it be more useful to build a full-size device? Packaged as a kit, it could also be a commercial product. If it has a good keyboard and a not too small screen, it might attract attention. Anyway, if you want some pointers: - connection was always the essence of the Model Ts. Make sure a serial and/or USB connection works. - try to incorporate/emulate software on ROM. See the REX initiative Greetings from the TyRannoSaurus _/// Jan-80@work -Original Message- From: M100 [mailto:m100-boun...@lists.bitchin100.com] On Behalf Of Jeroen Domburg Sent: dinsdag 6 februari 2018 13:05 To: m...@bitchin100.com Subject: [M100] New M100 hardware Hi all, TL;DR: I'm building a tiny M102. Let me first re-introduce myself on this list. Hi, I'm Jeroen, also known as Sprite_tm on the wider Internets. I was on this list around 2001, which is way longer ago than I thought it was. At that time, I wanted to see if I could convert the Olivetti M10 I bought at a flea market to accept M100 roms. I actually succeeded: took but a small conversion routine for the different keyboard layout to make the M100 ROM work in the M10. Talked to Rick Hanson at that time to ask if he could send me some ROM images. I'm sad to read he has passed a while ago... always seemed like such a pleasant guy in the email conversations. Anyway, why am I back? I nowadays live in Shanghai, doing electronics stuff, and recently I directed my hobby into re-making the machines I enjoyed back in the days This already has resulted in a matchbox-sized Game Boy (https://hackaday.com/2016/11/28/tiniest-game-boy-hides-in-your-pocket/), and a tiny Macintosh Plus (http://spritesmods.com/?art=minimacplus). Now, I decided to see if I could do something similar to this: make a tiny version of the TRS80 Model 100 or 102 (haven't decided yet). The plan is to use a newfangled low-power STM32 ARM processor for this; the processors that are around nowadays are actually pretty quick (80MHz), have a fair amount of RAM (64K, twice what the M100 had at maximum capacity!) and are even more efficient than
Re: [M100] New M100 hardware
Groeten terug! Leuk dat er ook Nederlanders op deze lijst zitten. Yes, I want to make a small one. First of all, it's kinda my thing; to see how small I can possibly make it: making a big Model T replacement actually is pretty simple with current technology. I think in this case it does actually have an added advantage: this Model T is small enough to put in your back pocket if you want to. Apart from that, this is a hobby project, and smaller = cheaper: the costs for the PCB increase quadratic when making something bigger; the cost for 3d-printing even increases cubic. Especially if I ever make this into a commercial product, I'd say a $50 pocket device would be more attractive than a $200 'full-size' device, especially with all the real, second-hand model Ts out there. USB is going to be a thing, most certainly. I have a connector on for recharging anyway, and I also plan to emulate a serial port on it, plus a way to put extra ROMs on it that way. Cheers, Jeroen On 02/06/2018 10:00 PM, VANDEN BOSSCHE JAN wrote: > Hallo Jeroen, > Groetjes uit de lage landen. > Ik doe verder in het Engels, dan verstaat iedereen het hier. > > That is very impressive tinkering. But it is obvious that you also have the > technical skills and knowledge to make such things. > > You want to build a replica of the Model T (not much difference between a > Model 100 or a Tandy 102) with modern technology, but why ... small ? > Wouldn't it be more useful to build a full-size device? Packaged as a kit, > it could also be a commercial product. If it has a good keyboard and a not > too small screen, it might attract attention. > > Anyway, if you want some pointers: > - connection was always the essence of the Model Ts. Make sure a serial > and/or USB connection works. > - try to incorporate/emulate software on ROM. See the REX initiative > > Greetings from the TyRannoSaurus > _/// Jan-80@work > > -Original Message- > From: M100 [mailto:m100-boun...@lists.bitchin100.com] On Behalf Of Jeroen > Domburg > Sent: dinsdag 6 februari 2018 13:05 > To: m...@bitchin100.com > Subject: [M100] New M100 hardware > > Hi all, > > TL;DR: I'm building a tiny M102. > > Let me first re-introduce myself on this list. Hi, I'm Jeroen, also > known as Sprite_tm on the wider Internets. I was on this list around > 2001, which is way longer ago than I thought it was. At that time, I > wanted to see if I could convert the Olivetti M10 I bought at a flea > market to accept M100 roms. I actually succeeded: took but a small > conversion routine for the different keyboard layout to make the M100 > ROM work in the M10. Talked to Rick Hanson at that time to ask if he > could send me some ROM images. I'm sad to read he has passed a while > ago... always seemed like such a pleasant guy in the email conversations. > > Anyway, why am I back? I nowadays live in Shanghai, doing electronics > stuff, and recently I directed my hobby into re-making the machines I > enjoyed back in the days This already has resulted in a matchbox-sized > Game Boy > (https://hackaday.com/2016/11/28/tiniest-game-boy-hides-in-your-pocket/), > and a tiny Macintosh Plus (http://spritesmods.com/?art=minimacplus). > > Now, I decided to see if I could do something similar to this: make a > tiny version of the TRS80 Model 100 or 102 (haven't decided yet). The > plan is to use a newfangled low-power STM32 ARM processor for this; the > processors that are around nowadays are actually pretty quick (80MHz), > have a fair amount of RAM (64K, twice what the M100 had at maximum > capacity!) and are even more efficient than the 80c85 (a few micro-amps > per megahertz). Also, they have a bunch of peripherals integrated, so I > can get away with not much more than that chip. > > Here in China, it's actually pretty easy to get the basic parts for > this. The most important part, obviously, are the LCD and the keys, so I > decided to start there. I found a nice and tiny (and cheap!) 256x64 > display, which could be a nice stand-in for the 240x64 LCD in the > original hardware. To test it out, I connected it to my laptop and did a > hack to get VirtualT outputting data to it: > http://j0h.nl/AqkB > (And yes, it's a bad picture... I shouldn't take pics in bad lighting > around midnight, I guess. For reference, the purple thing underneath is > a credit-card sized metro transportation card.) > > For the keyboard, I decided to go with the bare metal domes you > sometimes see in somewhat cheap-ish but still ok feeling keyboards for > remote controls, old-school brick phones etc. The nice thing is that > these domes are about US$0.005 each. The bad thing is that they need a > specific PCB layout to work... so I had to make a PCB for this. Luckily, > this is also
Re: [M100] New M100 hardware
Hallo Jeroen, Groetjes uit de lage landen. Ik doe verder in het Engels, dan verstaat iedereen het hier. That is very impressive tinkering. But it is obvious that you also have the technical skills and knowledge to make such things. You want to build a replica of the Model T (not much difference between a Model 100 or a Tandy 102) with modern technology, but why ... small ? Wouldn't it be more useful to build a full-size device? Packaged as a kit, it could also be a commercial product. If it has a good keyboard and a not too small screen, it might attract attention. Anyway, if you want some pointers: - connection was always the essence of the Model Ts. Make sure a serial and/or USB connection works. - try to incorporate/emulate software on ROM. See the REX initiative Greetings from the TyRannoSaurus _/// Jan-80@work -Original Message- From: M100 [mailto:m100-boun...@lists.bitchin100.com] On Behalf Of Jeroen Domburg Sent: dinsdag 6 februari 2018 13:05 To: m...@bitchin100.com Subject: [M100] New M100 hardware Hi all, TL;DR: I'm building a tiny M102. Let me first re-introduce myself on this list. Hi, I'm Jeroen, also known as Sprite_tm on the wider Internets. I was on this list around 2001, which is way longer ago than I thought it was. At that time, I wanted to see if I could convert the Olivetti M10 I bought at a flea market to accept M100 roms. I actually succeeded: took but a small conversion routine for the different keyboard layout to make the M100 ROM work in the M10. Talked to Rick Hanson at that time to ask if he could send me some ROM images. I'm sad to read he has passed a while ago... always seemed like such a pleasant guy in the email conversations. Anyway, why am I back? I nowadays live in Shanghai, doing electronics stuff, and recently I directed my hobby into re-making the machines I enjoyed back in the days This already has resulted in a matchbox-sized Game Boy (https://hackaday.com/2016/11/28/tiniest-game-boy-hides-in-your-pocket/), and a tiny Macintosh Plus (http://spritesmods.com/?art=minimacplus). Now, I decided to see if I could do something similar to this: make a tiny version of the TRS80 Model 100 or 102 (haven't decided yet). The plan is to use a newfangled low-power STM32 ARM processor for this; the processors that are around nowadays are actually pretty quick (80MHz), have a fair amount of RAM (64K, twice what the M100 had at maximum capacity!) and are even more efficient than the 80c85 (a few micro-amps per megahertz). Also, they have a bunch of peripherals integrated, so I can get away with not much more than that chip. Here in China, it's actually pretty easy to get the basic parts for this. The most important part, obviously, are the LCD and the keys, so I decided to start there. I found a nice and tiny (and cheap!) 256x64 display, which could be a nice stand-in for the 240x64 LCD in the original hardware. To test it out, I connected it to my laptop and did a hack to get VirtualT outputting data to it: http://j0h.nl/AqkB (And yes, it's a bad picture... I shouldn't take pics in bad lighting around midnight, I guess. For reference, the purple thing underneath is a credit-card sized metro transportation card.) For the keyboard, I decided to go with the bare metal domes you sometimes see in somewhat cheap-ish but still ok feeling keyboards for remote controls, old-school brick phones etc. The nice thing is that these domes are about US$0.005 each. The bad thing is that they need a specific PCB layout to work... so I had to make a PCB for this. Luckily, this is also cheap-ish here, although the gold-plating set me back a few quid more than I'd liked, and I'll probably re-spin these because they have a few mistakes in them. The keyboard part seems to work, however. Here it is while building it up: http://j0h.nl/AaoB And here is where I am now. I've used kapton to hold down the rubber domes, and I can actually already type on this; the domes are all well worth the half a cent each I paid for them, nice and clicky. I also installed the microprocessor and USB-port, and at this stage I can blink the power LED, so at least the hardware seems mostly okay. http://j0h.nl/AKsB http://j0h.nl/B6wB So, why am I posting this? I dunno, I like writing about this I guess, and maybe you guys have some good ideas for continuing. I'm pretty sure I can write the emulator without too much effort. The USB port is probably going to be used for a serial port; I may also use it to upload things like option ROMs. (The microcontroller has 256K of flash, so I should be able to fit a few.) I also need to think about a case: I have a pretty kick-ass Formlabs 3d-printer at work, but my workshop does not have many mechanical tools. In the end, I'll also add a LiIon battery: a tiny 150mAh one probably is long enough to let the entire thing actively work for 80 hours or so. Hope a project like this is appreciated on this list; if not, I'll happily keep working
[M100] New M100 hardware
Hi all, TL;DR: I'm building a tiny M102. Let me first re-introduce myself on this list. Hi, I'm Jeroen, also known as Sprite_tm on the wider Internets. I was on this list around 2001, which is way longer ago than I thought it was. At that time, I wanted to see if I could convert the Olivetti M10 I bought at a flea market to accept M100 roms. I actually succeeded: took but a small conversion routine for the different keyboard layout to make the M100 ROM work in the M10. Talked to Rick Hanson at that time to ask if he could send me some ROM images. I'm sad to read he has passed a while ago... always seemed like such a pleasant guy in the email conversations. Anyway, why am I back? I nowadays live in Shanghai, doing electronics stuff, and recently I directed my hobby into re-making the machines I enjoyed back in the days This already has resulted in a matchbox-sized Game Boy (https://hackaday.com/2016/11/28/tiniest-game-boy-hides-in-your-pocket/), and a tiny Macintosh Plus (http://spritesmods.com/?art=minimacplus). Now, I decided to see if I could do something similar to this: make a tiny version of the TRS80 Model 100 or 102 (haven't decided yet). The plan is to use a newfangled low-power STM32 ARM processor for this; the processors that are around nowadays are actually pretty quick (80MHz), have a fair amount of RAM (64K, twice what the M100 had at maximum capacity!) and are even more efficient than the 80c85 (a few micro-amps per megahertz). Also, they have a bunch of peripherals integrated, so I can get away with not much more than that chip. Here in China, it's actually pretty easy to get the basic parts for this. The most important part, obviously, are the LCD and the keys, so I decided to start there. I found a nice and tiny (and cheap!) 256x64 display, which could be a nice stand-in for the 240x64 LCD in the original hardware. To test it out, I connected it to my laptop and did a hack to get VirtualT outputting data to it: http://j0h.nl/AqkB (And yes, it's a bad picture... I shouldn't take pics in bad lighting around midnight, I guess. For reference, the purple thing underneath is a credit-card sized metro transportation card.) For the keyboard, I decided to go with the bare metal domes you sometimes see in somewhat cheap-ish but still ok feeling keyboards for remote controls, old-school brick phones etc. The nice thing is that these domes are about US$0.005 each. The bad thing is that they need a specific PCB layout to work... so I had to make a PCB for this. Luckily, this is also cheap-ish here, although the gold-plating set me back a few quid more than I'd liked, and I'll probably re-spin these because they have a few mistakes in them. The keyboard part seems to work, however. Here it is while building it up: http://j0h.nl/AaoB And here is where I am now. I've used kapton to hold down the rubber domes, and I can actually already type on this; the domes are all well worth the half a cent each I paid for them, nice and clicky. I also installed the microprocessor and USB-port, and at this stage I can blink the power LED, so at least the hardware seems mostly okay. http://j0h.nl/AKsB http://j0h.nl/B6wB So, why am I posting this? I dunno, I like writing about this I guess, and maybe you guys have some good ideas for continuing. I'm pretty sure I can write the emulator without too much effort. The USB port is probably going to be used for a serial port; I may also use it to upload things like option ROMs. (The microcontroller has 256K of flash, so I should be able to fit a few.) I also need to think about a case: I have a pretty kick-ass Formlabs 3d-printer at work, but my workshop does not have many mechanical tools. In the end, I'll also add a LiIon battery: a tiny 150mAh one probably is long enough to let the entire thing actively work for 80 hours or so. Hope a project like this is appreciated on this list; if not, I'll happily keep working on this in silence. My experience with the M100 is nil, however, so if you people see things I missed to make it an even better M102 replica, I'd love to hear this. Cheers, Jeroen
