Re: Apple Perl directory layout

[Dan Sugalski]

At 1:42 AM -0500 12/10/02, Sherm Pendley wrote:

What's more, unless "100% pure Perl" modules were stored in a 
version-agnostic location, they would then need to be reinstalled as 
well, whereas under the current layout, they can continue to be used 
as-is.

FWIW, they generally are.
--
Dan

--"it's like this"---
Dan Sugalski  even samurai
[EMAIL PROTECTED] have teddy bears and even
  teddy bears get drunk

Re: Apple Perl directory layout

[Sherm Pendley]

On Monday, December 9, 2002, at 03:20 PM, Michael Maibaum wrote:


Shouldn't we blame apple for making it harder than it should be?


I don't think so, because I don't see any way in which they've done 
that. Indeed, I think that they've simplified things a bit, by 
eliminating an extra set of directories that were of dubious benefit 
anyway.

How is apple going to upgrade their perl with this layout? by adding a 
Perl5.8 sub directory of /Library? (ie adding versioning like I would 
like?)

There are actually two separate issues: Installing multiple Perls, and 
surviving an update to the system Perl.

The first issue is clear, and the means to resolve it are fairly simple. 
Anyone who needs a working Perl environment that is guaranteed to remain 
untouched through any Apple updates needs to install their copy under a 
safe prefix. I think we agree on that - you said earlier that you've 
installed your copy of 5.8.0 under /opt. So, no matter what Apple does 
with their Perl, scripts that use #!/opt/bin/perl will continue to 
function properly.

The second issue is a bit more complex - what happens when, after having 
installed a series of CPAN modules into Apple's Perl (hence, in 
/Library/Perl), Apple then decides to upgrade their Perl to 5.8.0? What 
happens is, modules with an XS component will break, and will need to be 
reinstalled.

You suggest that, had Apple used a version-specific module directory, 
this sort of breakage would have been prevented. That is true only in a 
limited sense, in that the upgraded Perl would no longer attempt to load 
incompatible module versions. However, addressing that side of the issue 
would not magically cause the appearance of compatible modules in the 
new version's site_perl directory. In other words, it would not 
eliminate the problem; it would simply change the nature of the problem, 
from one concerning incompatible modules to one concerning missing 
modules. The means of fixing the problem would remain the same - modules 
with an XS component would need to be reinstalled.

What's more, unless "100% pure Perl" modules were stored in a 
version-agnostic location, they would then need to be reinstalled as 
well, whereas under the current layout, they can continue to be used 
as-is.

In effect, what you're proposing would complicate the directory 
structure, with little benefit to be had in return. Any CPAN modules 
that would have to be reinstalled after an upgrade with the current 
layout, would also need to be reinstalled if the traditional 
version-specific layout were used.

The sole benefit that the traditional layout has over the layout Apple 
uses is the ability for multiple versions to coexist peacefully - and 
that benefit is of limited scope, as the traditional layout allows only 
for multiple trees of modules. Man pages and tools in the bin directory 
will be from the latest installed version. A much more elegant and 
complete means of installing multiple versions and ensuring their 
separation from one another is to specify a different prefix for each, 
and allow each to install its own set if bin/, lib/, and man/ 
subdirectories under that.

It appears to me that Apple has pretty closely examined this and many 
other aspects of the traditional UNIX system, and attempted to 
determine, on the basis of merit alone, whether tradition in each case 
should be followed, or discarded in favor of something better. This is 
hardly surprising; Apple is notorious for questioning assumptions and 
for forging their own path whenever they have felt it necessary.

sherm--

If you listen to a UNIX shell, can you hear the C?

Re: Apple Perl directory layout

[Chris Devers]

On Mon, 9 Dec 2002, Michael Maibaum wrote:

> On Monday, December 9, 2002, at 12:07 PM, John Siracusa wrote:
>
> > Apple's going to upgrade to perl 5.8.0?  I thought the plan was
> > "5.6.0 forever!" :P
>
>
> fair point, perhaps the plan is to remain at 5.6 till perl 6 arrives ;)

John already said that joke.

:)


-- 
Chris Devers  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
is actually not all that pessimistic
 about perl 6, and things that this
 good thing will be worth the wait,
 but it still makes a good target :)

Re: Apple Perl directory layout

[Peter N Lewis]

Is it really broken or is it different?  Lots of folks here just 
tend to install their version in the correct place and leave Apple's 
alone.  (I haven't yet but I will when I decide to upgrade to 
5.8.0.)  Perhaps Apple squashes bug reports like this because they 
see it not as "A bug, but a feature"

Actually, I did the reverse, I just trashed all of Apple's and 
installed 5.8 and I haven't had any problems.  Mind you I don't use a 
web server on the machines, so maybe all that funcky mod_perl stuff 
might not be broken, but then by the sounds of it reinstalling apache 
and mod_perl is a good idea anyway.

download & unpack tarball

./Configure -de [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
make
make test

remove:
~/.cpan
/Library/Perl
/System/Library/Perl
/Local/Library/Perl
/sw/lib/perl5

sudo make install

ln -s /Library/Perl /sw/lib/perl5

Note that you actually have to be a little more careful with the 
/sw/lib/perl5 directory if you have fink installed already as it 
installs a few modules there to start with and so you actually might 
have to merge them in.

Anyway, I'm sure what I'm doing is all a bad idea, but it has worked 
fine for me for a month or so.
   Peter.
--
  

Re: Apple Perl directory layout

[drieux]

On Monday, Dec 9, 2002, at 11:45 US/Pacific, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[..]

Is it really broken or is it different?  Lots of folks here just tend 
to install their version in the correct place and leave Apple's alone.
[..]

Volks,

do people remember WHEN 'versioned' site_perl directories
became the hip-hop buzz cool thing?

Given that the cut over to 5.8.0 from 5.6 will require that
the non-pure-perl modules will need to be rebuilt, I'm not at
all sure what the 'issue' really is?

A part of the reason this is so 'not a bug' is that
other vendors, noteably Sun, also do an install into
their own 'private place' for the 'vendor supplied'
verion of perl, so that one can choose to either run
with 'vendor supplied, vendor supported' - or build
and install your own version.


ciao
drieux

---

Re: Apple Perl directory layout

[Michael Maibaum]

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On Monday, December 9, 2002, at 12:07 PM, John Siracusa wrote:


On 12/9/02 2:52 PM, Michael Maibaum wrote:

I think it is "really broken", for example, how is apple going to
upgrade Perl to 5.8 without it breaking for people who've installed XS
modules?


Apple's going to upgrade to perl 5.8.0?  I thought the plan was "5.6.0
forever!" :P




fair point, perhaps the plan is to remain at 5.6 till perl 6 arrives ;)


Michael
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Perl version in pathname

[Christopher D . Lewis]

wsanchez' hints file patch cures this concern, no?
	--Chris

Re: Apple Perl directory layout

[Christopher D . Lewis]

I did file a bug via http://www.apple.com/macosx/feedback and 
subsequently, wsanchez apparently submitted a perl patch which leads to 
version-numbers in the pathname.
	--Chris


On Monday, December 9, 2002, at 01:38  PM, Michael Maibaum wrote:

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As I guess most of you know, Apple's system Perl layout is broken, 
because it doesn't version the module directories and this means Perl 
upgrade trauma. Anyway, I just found out that Apple has no bugs on 
this, there are no open, or it seems, closed bugs on the way perl is 
installed with the base system.

I'd like to encourage people to file a bug on this, so when apple 
upgrades the system Perl to 5.8.x they will hopefully use a sane 
directory layout

thanks

Michael
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Re: Apple Perl directory layout

[Michael Maibaum]

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On Monday, December 9, 2002, at 12:12 PM, Sherm Pendley wrote:


On Monday, December 9, 2002, at 02:52 PM, Michael Maibaum wrote:


how is apple going to upgrade Perl to 5.8 without it breaking for 
people who've installed XS modules?

If *you* chose to install a copy of Perl 5.8 in a location where you 
are fully aware that it will be overwritten by a future Apple update, 
then whatever problems arise from *your* poor choice are your own 
fault. If you ask for problems, you have no right to complain about it 
when you get what you've asked for.


No, how is apple going to upgrade, not how am I, I have perl5.8 in 
/opt/local FWIW.

Michael
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Re: Apple Perl directory layout

[Michael Maibaum]

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On Monday, December 9, 2002, at 11:58 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




- Original Message -
From: Michael Maibaum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Monday, December 9, 2002 2:52 pm
Subject: Re: Apple Perl directory layout

SNIP

I think it is "really broken", for example, how is apple going to
upgrade Perl to 5.8 without it breaking for people who've
installed XS
modules?

SNIP

But doesn't that break anyway?  When I went from 5.6.1 to 5.8.0 I had 
to redo all my modules.  I'm not sticking up for Apple and their weird 
install plan.  I'm just wondering if they don't see their Perl as a 
problem.



well, sure you have to recompile the XS modules, but you don't have to 
hunt through to find and erase them first. Pure Perl modules shouldn't 
be an issue.

Michael
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Re: Apple Perl directory layout

[Sherm Pendley]

On Monday, December 9, 2002, at 02:52 PM, Michael Maibaum wrote:


how is apple going to upgrade Perl to 5.8 without it breaking for 
people who've installed XS modules?

If *you* chose to install a copy of Perl 5.8 in a location where you are 
fully aware that it will be overwritten by a future Apple update, then 
whatever problems arise from *your* poor choice are your own fault. If 
you ask for problems, you have no right to complain about it when you 
get what you've asked for.

sherm--

UNIX: Where /sbin/init is Job 1.

Re: Apple Perl directory layout

[John Siracusa]

On 12/9/02 2:52 PM, Michael Maibaum wrote:
> I think it is "really broken", for example, how is apple going to
> upgrade Perl to 5.8 without it breaking for people who've installed XS
> modules?

Apple's going to upgrade to perl 5.8.0?  I thought the plan was "5.6.0
forever!" :P

(maybe it's just taking 3 years to compile... ;)
-John

Re: Apple Perl directory layout

[ellem]

- Original Message -
From: Michael Maibaum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Monday, December 9, 2002 2:52 pm
Subject: Re: Apple Perl directory layout

SNIP
> I think it is "really broken", for example, how is apple going to 
> upgrade Perl to 5.8 without it breaking for people who've 
> installed XS 
> modules?
SNIP

But doesn't that break anyway?  When I went from 5.6.1 to 5.8.0 I had to redo all my 
modules.  I'm not sticking up for Apple and their weird install plan.  I'm just 
wondering if they don't see their Perl as a problem.

Re: Apple Perl directory layout

[Sherm Pendley]

On Monday, December 9, 2002, at 02:38 PM, Michael Maibaum wrote:


As I guess most of you know, Apple's system Perl layout is broken


Please don't presume to speak for everyone here. What I *know* is that's 
it's different than the traditional layout. Whether or not it's "broken" 
is a matter of opinion, not a statement of fact.

, because it doesn't version the module directories and this means Perl 
upgrade trauma.

Upgrading Perl can be traumatic, but only if you choose to make it so. 
If that's what you choose to do, you're asking for headaches, and you 
shouldn't blame Apple when you get what you've asked for.

Personally, I think the default approach of organizing everything under 
/usr/local/lib/perl/ is bizarre. If you're a fan of it, try this 
exercise - spend a few years maintaining and updating multiple versions 
of Perl, installing them with the default layout. Then, see how long it 
takes you to identify and delete modules that are three or four 
revisions old. You'll be able to do it - but not without quite a bit of 
thought and some careful hand-pruning of subdirectories.

It's far saner to just install each version of Perl into its own 
directory - /usr/local/perl5.8.0 or whatever. With a minimum of thought 
and planning, it's trivially simple (and not the least bit traumatic) to 
keep as many different versions of Perl on your system as you need. And 
deleting an old version that's no longer used becomes a trivial matter 
of deleting the proper directory.

 Anyway, I just found out that Apple has no bugs on this


Because it's not a bug. Bugs are unintentional flaws; this was an 
intentional decision. You're free to disagree with it if you want, of 
course, but not everything you disagree with is a mistake.

I'd like to encourage people to file a bug on this, so when apple 
upgrades the system Perl to 5.8.x they will hopefully use a sane 
directory layout

And I'd like to encourage people not to file erroneous bug reports. If 
anything, file a feature request - but even that, in my opinion, is 
misguided. The directory layout that Apple has chosen for their system 
copy of Perl is perfectly reasonable.

What is *un*reasonable, in my opinion, is to expect Apple to ship an OS 
that continues to work perfectly in all respects when you replace a 
major component. What makes this all the more unreasonable is the fact 
that it's trivially simple to install a copy of Perl elsewhere, for your 
own use, while still allowing the OS and anything else that expects the 
default version to continue to use that.

sherm--

If you listen to a UNIX shell, can you hear the C?

Re: Apple Perl directory layout

[Michael Maibaum]

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On Monday, December 9, 2002, at 11:45 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




- Original Message -
From: Michael Maibaum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Monday, December 9, 2002 2:38 pm
Subject: Apple Perl directory layout


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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As I guess most of you know, Apple's system Perl layout is broken,
because it doesn't version the module directories and this means
Perl
upgrade trauma.


Is it really broken or is it different?  Lots of folks here just tend 
to install their version in the correct place and leave Apple's alone. 
 (I haven't yet but I will when I decide to upgrade to 5.8.0.)  
Perhaps Apple squashes bug reports like this because they see it not 
as "A bug, but a feature"


I think it is "really broken", for example, how is apple going to 
upgrade Perl to 5.8 without it breaking for people who've installed XS 
modules?


Michael
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Re: Apple Perl directory layout

[ellem]

- Original Message -
From: Michael Maibaum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Monday, December 9, 2002 2:38 pm
Subject: Apple Perl directory layout

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> 
> As I guess most of you know, Apple's system Perl layout is broken, 
> because it doesn't version the module directories and this means 
> Perl 
> upgrade trauma. 

Is it really broken or is it different?  Lots of folks here just tend to install their 
version in the correct place and leave Apple's alone.  (I haven't yet but I will when 
I decide to upgrade to 5.8.0.)  Perhaps Apple squashes bug reports like this because 
they see it not as "A bug, but a feature"

Apple Perl directory layout

[Michael Maibaum]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


As I guess most of you know, Apple's system Perl layout is broken, 
because it doesn't version the module directories and this means Perl 
upgrade trauma. Anyway, I just found out that Apple has no bugs on 
this, there are no open, or it seems, closed bugs on the way perl is 
installed with the base system.

I'd like to encourage people to file a bug on this, so when apple 
upgrades the system Perl to 5.8.x they will hopefully use a sane 
directory layout

thanks

Michael
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Re: apache dying unless I rebuild mod_perl before starting it

[carthagtuek]

Sherm Pendley writes: 

On Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 04:44 PM, David Wheeler wrote: 

On Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 01:38  PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote: 

(I built it with the --with-layout=Darwin option, though. Still 
disliking multiple of what should be the same =)

Okay, but you should realize that lots of Apple-specific stuff won't work 
properly now, such as Personal web sharing.

And, that the next Apple-supplied update to Apache will overwrite your 
custom version.

Well, PWS works just fine, seeing as how the startupitem is just starting 
the new version (what with the same paths and all). 

The overwriting is more of a problem, but I can live with that. Now I know 
how to do it... 

-Mikkel 

Re: apache dying unless I rebuild mod_perl before starting it

[carthagtuek]

And it's working! Thanks very much for the help. :) 

(I built it with the --with-layout=Darwin option, though. Still disliking 
multiple of what should be the same =) 

I had a few problems with the DSOs from my original config until I figured 
out that they were in fact built in now. Maybe there should be a short 
notice about that... 

Cheers
Mikkel Eriksen 

David Wheeler writes: 

On Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 04:43  AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

Thanks for the heads-up. I'm following the instructions right now, but it 
seems that the apreq procedure has changed (the files listed in your 
tutorial aren't there, so I'm trying to build it via the instructions on 
the ~joe/ site).

True. I need to update that page. In the meantime, I've written an article 
for MacDevCenter.com that uses the new approach. 

  http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2002/11/05/apache_osx.html 

HTH, 

David 

--
David Wheeler AIM: dwTheory
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 15726394
http://david.wheeler.net/  Yahoo!: dew7e
   Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Re: DBD::Pg

[David Wheeler]

On Monday, December 9, 2002, at 08:32  AM, Randall Perry wrote:


Just thought I'd tell you what I discovered. You don't have to 
sacrifice
PostgreSQL SSL support to use DBD::Pg. Just do the following (also 
works for
Pg module):

setenv POSTGRES_LIB "/usr/local/pgsql/lib"

to

setenv POSTGRES_LIB "/usr/local/pgsql/lib -lssl'

so the trick is to include the flag -lssl during the dbd build.


Hrm, interesting. I suspect that this would work on other platforms, 
too. I wonder if there's a typical way to tell the Perl module build 
system to do this? Or indeed to include other build options?

David

--
David Wheeler AIM: dwTheory
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 15726394
http://david.wheeler.net/  Yahoo!: dew7e
   Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: DBD::Pg

[Randall Perry]

Just thought I'd tell you what I discovered. You don't have to sacrifice
PostgreSQL SSL support to use DBD::Pg. Just do the following (also works for
Pg module):

> setenv POSTGRES_LIB "/usr/local/pgsql/lib"
>
> to
>
> setenv POSTGRES_LIB "/usr/local/pgsql/lib -lssl'
>
> so the trick is to include the flag -lssl during the dbd build.



> On Mon, Sep 23, 2002 at 12:59:19PM +0100, Vincent D Murphy wrote:
>> 
>> i have omitted the remainder of the output, it just says that the other
>> tests are skipped.
>> 
>> i presume this those symbols are the names of C functions, and that
>> this a problem with XS code somewhere.  but why the hell would a DBD
>> driver be interested in SSL?
>> 
>> i am hoping somebody else has followed this road less travelled [0] [1]
>> with more success and can help me.
>> 
>> 0. http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/index.html#03128
>> 1. http://david.wheeler.net/osx.html
> 
> I recompiled PostgreSQL without SSL (TLS) and then DBD::Pg compiled fine
> for me.
> 
> -Charles Albrecht
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]

-- 
Randall Perry
sysTame

Xserve Web Hosting/Co-location
Website Development/Promotion
Mac Consulting/Sales

http://www.systame.com/