RE: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Simon Fogarty]

I’ve been using the IOS beta for two months and now with the actual release I’m 
finding a couple of oddities but nothing that I’d lose my cool over,

No OS that gets released is bug proof just feedback to the develpers what your 
finding and then see what happens.

I’ve found one little issue with mail otherwise I’m not seeing any thing I 
don’t like thus far.

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Christopher-Mark Gilland
Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 1:27 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

Excuse me, Cheree.  that was profoundly disrespectful, not to mention downright 
insulting to us devs, me being one of them.  Let me tell you something.  We 
devs did! try getting on Apple about stuff like this.  I did so in iOS 9, and I 
even more so did in this iOS 10 update beta cycle.  Trust me.  I was on the 10 
beta from June 30th, when it was announced at WWDC until now.  I've ever since 
had at least one of my devices on 10.

I've reported bug after bug after bug to them.  I've worked countless hours to 
the sweat of my brow! trying to explain these things to them, but no sollution 
was ever made.  So don't be putting the blame on us devs, OK?  We've done our 
damdest! to make this new version of OSX, TVOS, Watch OS, and iOS as  wonderful 
as possible.  The thing is, once we make the bug reports through the 
bugreporter bug tracker, we really don't then have much of a say past that 
point.  If Apple fixes it, great, if not, well, we've done our parts by 
reporting it.

Now, if us devs just saw the bug and ignored it, then therefore it was released 
buggy, then, I'd totally give this message to you, but, hunttauhh.  I'm not 
lettin' you have this.  I'm sorry.  Us devs deserve more credit, and respect!  
We really, really really did try!

Can another person on this list who's a dev and paid the 99 for the iOS 10 
cycle please speak up and advocate for us all here as well?  This is just wrong!
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

i...@gillandmarketing.com
Phone: (704) 256-8010.
- Original Message -
From: Cheree Heppe
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2016 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

You developers and designers, changers and alter era can flick yourselves into 
you-know-where regarding this change to mail on iOS.


Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden 
mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now looks much 
more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.

When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled the same 
as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a thread to activate 
it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this view, single-finger vertical 
flick moves up and down through the messages. Single-finger horrizontal flicks 
read through the specific message. Double-tap on the delete button at the 
bottom of the screen deletes all messages in the thread. Three-finger 
horrizontal flick moves between threads, threads and individual messages which 
do not belong to threads, and individual messages. In other words, the same as 
single-finger horrizontal flick in the message list screen.

If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread must be 
expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger vertical flick to 
expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is unpacked and all the messages 
in the thread are treated like non-thread messages. Now that I have become used 
to this new system, I really like it. It took me a few hours of frustration to 
become used to this new system.

I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging the behaviours of apps for iOS and 
Mac, that we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love touch-screen and want my 
touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

On 16/09/2016, at 10:09, Phil Halton 
mailto:philh...@gmail.com>> wrote:
message threading seems to have changed substantially in IOS10. I can no longer 
3 finger flick from message to message in a thread, instead I have to use the 
“pre and next” message buttons. Also, the list of messages in a thread no 
longer appears, but instead I am thrown into the first message in the thread 
and then have to navigate between messages using the next and pre message 
buttons. What a screw up this is! is 3 finger flicking from message to message 
gone in ios10?
Also how about the thread message list? is that gone too? or are there some 
settings that need tweaking?


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If you have any quest

RE: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Simon Fogarty]

Scott,

 Um, that type of prostate exam would probably be ok, because it's now done 
with a blood test, so captain hook would be able to help get the blood out!


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Scott Granados
Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 1:46 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a prostate 
exam from Captain Hook.



> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock  
> wrote:
> 
> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
> nothing honestly.
> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously pay 
> more.
> What is a Mac in most cases?
> A PC…
> A Personal Computer …
> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes will 
> continue paying for them.
> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing 
> there updates, and just had to say, so what… Switch to android, back to a 
> Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that phone?), windows 10 touch 
> phone, etc.
> #choices.
> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He didn’t 
> know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released helped me 
> a lot.
> Thanks for reading my rant.
> Best.
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>> 
>>  Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time adapting 
>> to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If that is 
>> what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump ship. But, 
>> inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
>> 
>>  Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
>> Applevis.
>> 
>>  How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it 
>> sure outruns Windows.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>> Are We Alone in the Universe?
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> 
>> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
>>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy 
>>> system, namely OS.
>>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  
>>> The iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.
>>> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am 
>>> going to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook 
>>> alternative.  This mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update 
>>> promised to improve, to make simpler, to add features.
>>> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No 
>>> release notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just 
>>> not helpful or easily usable.
>>> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on 
>>> that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using 
>>> the iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to 
>>> give place to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and 
>>> not the other way round.
>>> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
>>> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at 
>>> rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own good.
>>> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk 
>>> losing something that could and did change the world for us.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden >> > wrote:
>>> 
 Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now 
 looks much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
 
 When in the main message list, individual messages are still 
 handled the same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one 
 double-taps on a thread to activate it, one goes into a browse 
 thread view. In this view, single-finger vertical flick moves up 
 and down through the messages. Single-finger horrizontal flicks 
 read through the specific message. Double-tap on the delete button 
 at the bottom of the screen deletes all messages in the thread. 
 Three-finger horrizontal flick moves between threads, threads and 
 individual messages which do not belong to threads, and individual 
 messages. In other words, the same as single-finger horrizontal flick in 
 the message list screen.
 
 If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the 
 thread must be expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, 
 sing

RE: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Simon Fogarty]

If your getting this upset about a couple of bugs in IOS 10 then you’ve got 
real big issues coming next week with sierra being released.

Can garuntee it’s going to have multiple issues in it.
That is the way of  the world when it comes to releasing new Operating systems.

El capitan or IOS 9,
Windows 8 & 81 and not to mention windows anniversary edition

Android android devices or OS also have their sisues.

Good luck finding a system without a pre loved bug in it.

If there were no bugs or problems then you wouldn’t need to update things.Sent: 
Friday, 16 September 2016 1:51 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

Firing range??
LOL


Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 18:44, Scott Granados 
mailto:sc...@qualityip.net>> wrote:
Cheree, you’re not going anywhere.  Even if you don’t like the change in mail.  
If you think that’s tricky try using Android.  Android is a joke of an 
operating system in comparison.  If for example you want to use the web or 
expect stability, expect to get your security patched and updates and even 
expect  consistent experience then you’ll just hate android.

Here’s a practical example.  T-Mobile had a problem in IOS 10, it took them 
about 48 hours to push an update to all the phones and correct their problem.  
If this was the google world the update would be pushed to phones based on each 
individual vendor’s timeline, which in the case of Samsung for example may have 
taken months.  Samsung has been as much as a year out of date in releasing 
updates of the OS.

Don’t even get me started on windows and that after thought of an screen reader 
situation.

I had such a bad experience with a Galaxy phone i actually took it to the 
firing range and put a 308 round through the phone.  It rebooted one to many 
times during a phone interview to live.;)

On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:03 PM, Cheree Heppe 
mailto:che...@dogsc4me.com>> wrote:

It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined functionality, 
such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy system, namely OS.
If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The iOS 
represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.  Among the 
public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going to be 
forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This mail issue 
mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve, to make simpler, to 
add features.
My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release notes 
guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful or easily 
usable.
It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on that 
clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the iOs.  It is 
my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place to the more modern, 
more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other way round.
Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at rehab, 
insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own good.
I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk losing 
something that could and did change the world for us.


Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden 
mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now looks much 
more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.

When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled the same 
as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a thread to activate 
it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this view, single-finger vertical 
flick moves up and down through the messages. Single-finger horrizontal flicks 
read through the specific message. Double-tap on the delete button at the 
bottom of the screen deletes all messages in the thread. Three-finger 
horrizontal flick moves between threads, threads and individual messages which 
do not belong to threads, and individual messages. In other words, the same as 
single-finger horrizontal flick in the message list screen.

If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread must be 
expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger vertical flick to 
expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is unpacked and all the messages 
in the thread are treated like non-thread messages. Now that I have become used 
to this new system, I really like it. It took me a few hours of frustration to 
become used to this new system.

I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging the behaviours of apps for iOS and 
Mac, that we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love touch-screen and want my 
touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com

RE: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Simon Fogarty]

No other IT company produces products with as good built in accessibility  
systems.



-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Blee Blat
Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 1:59 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

I actually think Apple does better than the alternatives for accessibility. I 
don't have a clue what to do with  a lot of the new features and user interface 
changes. But there's an on / off switch for everything. If I ever find a use 
for these features I don't understand, then I can re-enable them. Just use what 
you like. These devices are trying to be made usable for what they believe to 
be the common user. I'm not that so I will not complain if I don't like the way 
something works. I'll just tweak things to work in a sane way and enjoy the 
things that are working.

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RE: Audio of my iPhone 7 Plus unboxing/familiarisation

[Simon Fogarty]

Hi Jonathan,

Just wondering a couple of things,

Firstly why did you go for the 7+ over the 7?

And 2, which you may not yet have tested but Word on KNFB reader quality of 
scanning a document etc using the dual cameras within the 7+
 I’d be interested to know how that goes whether scan is better or worse 
quality of pickup / out put.

Cheers,


Simon F


From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Jonathan Mosen
Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 2:40 PM
To: 'Maxwell Ivey' via MacVisionaries 
Subject: Audio of my iPhone 7 Plus unboxing/familiarisation

Hi everyone, following on from our wrap of last week's Apple event, this week's 
episode of The Blind Side Podcast features a comprehensive unboxing, setting 
up, and then exploration of the new iPhone 7 Plus.
If you'd like to take a listen, subscribe to The Blind Side Podcast in any good 
podcatcher, or you can hear it on Sound Cloud via this URL.
https://soundcloud.com/theblindsidepodcast/episode6
Hope you find it interesting.
Jonathan Mosen
Mosen Consulting
Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training
http://Mosen.org

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RE: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Simon Fogarty]

Hi Mary,

I've played with OS 6 from android and I didn't find it any easier to use than 
os 5 

 Mind you I have to admit I can't stop doing gestures fo rthe iPhone but then 
that's just because it's my device of preference.


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Mary Otten
Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 3:15 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

OK, Scott. But weren't you going to try a more recent android experience?
Mary
 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
>> nothing honestly.
>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
>> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
>> pay more.
>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>> A PC…
>> A Personal Computer …
>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes will 
>> continue paying for them.
>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is 
>> doing there updates, and just had to say, so what… Switch to android, back 
>> to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that phone?), windows 10 touch 
>> phone, etc.
>> #choices.
>> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
>> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
>> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released 
>> helped me a lot.
>> Thanks for reading my rant.
>> Best.
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time adapting 
>>> to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If that is 
>>> what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump ship. But, 
>>> inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
>>> 
>>> Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
>>> Applevis.
>>> 
>>> How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it 
>>> sure outruns Windows.
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>> Are We Alone in the Universe?
>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>> 
 On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
 It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
 functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy 
 system, namely OS.
 If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  
 The iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily 
 adopted.
 Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
 If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am 
 going to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook 
 alternative.  This mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an 
 update promised to improve, to make simpler, to add features.
 My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No 
 release notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just 
 not helpful or easily usable.
 It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned 
 on that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those 
 using the iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs 
 to give place to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs 
 and not the other way round.
 Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
 There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at 
 rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own 
 good.
 I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or 
 risk losing something that could and did change the world for us.
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden >>> > wrote:
 
> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it 
> now looks much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
> 
> When in the main message list, individual messages are still 
> handled the same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one 
> double-taps on a thread to activate it, one goes into a browse 
> thread view. In this view, single-finger vertical flick moves up 
> and down through the messages. Single-finger horrizontal flicks 
> read through the specific message. Double-tap on the delete button 
> at the bottom of the screen deletes all messages in the thread. 
> Three-finger horrizontal flick moves between threads, threads and 
>

Re: Audio of my iPhone 7 Plus unboxing/familiarisation

[Jonathan Mosen]

Hi Simon, this is all covered in the podcast. I prefer the plus models because 
of the superior battery life and more real estate for Braille screen input, 
which is how I get data into the phone when I'm not using a Braille display.
KNFB Reader seems accurate, and very fast.
Jonathan Mosen
Mosen Consulting
Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training
http://Mosen.org

> On 16/09/2016, at 8:07 PM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
> 
> Hi Jonathan,
>  
> Just wondering a couple of things,
>  
> Firstly why did you go for the 7+ over the 7?
>  
> And 2, which you may not yet have tested but Word on KNFB reader quality of 
> scanning a document etc using the dual cameras within the 7+
>  I’d be interested to know how that goes whether scan is better or worse 
> quality of pickup / out put.
>  
> Cheers,
>  
>  
> Simon F
>  
>  
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>  ] On Behalf Of Jonathan Mosen
> Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 2:40 PM
> To: 'Maxwell Ivey' via MacVisionaries  >
> Subject: Audio of my iPhone 7 Plus unboxing/familiarisation
>  
> Hi everyone, following on from our wrap of last week's Apple event, this 
> week's episode of The Blind Side Podcast features a comprehensive unboxing, 
> setting up, and then exploration of the new iPhone 7 Plus.
> If you'd like to take a listen, subscribe to The Blind Side Podcast in any 
> good podcatcher, or you can hear it on Sound Cloud via this URL.
> https://soundcloud.com/theblindsidepodcast/episode6 
> 
> Hope you find it interesting.
> Jonathan Mosen
> Mosen Consulting
> Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training
> http://Mosen.org 
>  
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
>  
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>  
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara 
> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
> 
>  
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
> 
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Re: Youtube on the Mac

[Joshua Tubbs]

I highly recommend Downie video downloader for this. Does all that in one app, 
including conversion.

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 10:06 PM, E.T.  wrote:
> 
>   On occasion I will download a video on my Windows then send it to the Mac 
> and covert it.
> 
>   Is there a similar process for this on the Mac?
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>  Are We Alone in the Universe?
> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> 
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T-Mobile carrier update 25.2 released, update to avoid service disruption

[Scott Granados]

Morning,

Along with the new phone a new carrier update has been pushed by T-Mobile.  
This addresses bugs in 25.1 which caused an outage or the phone not to 
reconnect to the network when transitioning from LTE to Edge and vise versa. TO 
force the update go to settings, general, about and when about opens accept the 
new carrier settings.  Wait approximately 1 minute for the file to download and 
install, your cell service will restart briefly.

Good luck

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Re: Audio of my iPhone 7 Plus unboxing/familiarisation

[Scott Granados]

Mary, you had to be one of the cool kids and get the black model.:)

I heard it’s back ordered until October, true?

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 10:54 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
> Oh good. Looking forward to it. Even though my phone is a few weeks away.
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 7:39 PM, Jonathan Mosen  > wrote:
> 
>> Hi everyone, following on from our wrap of last week's Apple event, this 
>> week's episode of The Blind Side Podcast features a comprehensive unboxing, 
>> setting up, and then exploration of the new iPhone 7 Plus.
>> If you'd like to take a listen, subscribe to The Blind Side Podcast in any 
>> good podcatcher, or you can hear it on Sound Cloud via this URL.
>> https://soundcloud.com/theblindsidepodcast/episode6 
>> 
>> Hope you find it interesting.
>> Jonathan Mosen
>> Mosen Consulting
>> Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training
>> http://Mosen.org 
>> 
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Apple increases iPhone 7 production 10%

[Scott Granados]

Fox Business is reporting this morning that Apple is increasing 
production levels by 10% to meet unexpected demand.

The 7+ is entirely sold out and not available for sale according to the same 
report.


Wow!

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Re: Audio of my iPhone 7 Plus unboxing/familiarisation

[Donna Goodin]

I don't get the popularity of the black model.  Going for the rose gold again, 
myself.  On my way to get my phone this morning!!
Cheers,
Donna
> On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:25 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> Mary, you had to be one of the cool kids and get the black model.:)
> 
> I heard it’s back ordered until October, true?
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 10:54 PM, Mary Otten > > wrote:
>> 
>> Oh good. Looking forward to it. Even though my phone is a few weeks away.
>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 7:39 PM, Jonathan Mosen > > wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi everyone, following on from our wrap of last week's Apple event, this 
>>> week's episode of The Blind Side Podcast features a comprehensive unboxing, 
>>> setting up, and then exploration of the new iPhone 7 Plus.
>>> If you'd like to take a listen, subscribe to The Blind Side Podcast in any 
>>> good podcatcher, or you can hear it on Sound Cloud via this URL.
>>> https://soundcloud.com/theblindsidepodcast/episode6 
>>> 
>>> Hope you find it interesting.
>>> Jonathan Mosen
>>> Mosen Consulting
>>> Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training
>>> http://Mosen.org 
>>> 
>>> -- 
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>>> Visionaries list.
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Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

I sure am but the pure android experience not one rebaked by another vendor.  
Google hasn’t released their devices yet.  I’d like to do a comparison so I’ll 
use the 7+ and when the Nexus replacements come out I’ll put down the 7+ and 
move the SIM to the new phone and compare.  This way it’s a full dedicated 
experience instead of trying to flip back and forth between devices and take my 
own advice to commit.:)

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:15 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
> OK, Scott. But weren't you going to try a more recent android experience?
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>> 
>> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
>> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
>>> nothing honestly.
>>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
>>> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
>>> pay more.
>>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>>> A PC…
>>> A Personal Computer … 
>>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes will 
>>> continue paying for them.
>>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing 
>>> there updates, and just had to say, so what…
>>> Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that 
>>> phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.
>>> #choices.
>>> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
>>> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
>>> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released 
>>> helped me a lot.
>>> Thanks for reading my rant.
>>> Best.
>>> 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
 
 Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time adapting 
 to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If that is 
 what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump ship. But, 
 inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
 
 Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
 Applevis.
 
 How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it 
 sure outruns Windows.
 
 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
 Are We Alone in the Universe?
 ancient.ali...@icloud.com
 
> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
> system, namely OS.
> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
> iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.
> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
> to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
> mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
> to make simpler, to add features.
> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release
> notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful
> or easily usable.
> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
> that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the
> iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place
> to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other
> way round.
> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at
> rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own 
> good.
> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk
> losing something that could and did change the world for us.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden  > wrote:
> 
>> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now
>> looks much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
>> 
>> When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled
>> the same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a
>> thread to activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this
>> view, single-finger vertical flick moves up and down through the
>> messages. Single-finger horrizontal flicks read through the specific
>> message. Double-tap on the delete button at the bottom of the screen
>> deletes all messages in the thread. Th

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

You know what would be nice too, is if we were less anal about the public beta 
and discussed these major changes openly so people aren’t surprised.  The 
Cheree’s of the world could elect not to update for example until a 
satisfactory alternative presents itself or not update at all putting the 
control in their hands instead of jumping in with out all the facts to make an 
informed decision.

It would also be nice if Apple could unbundle the security updates from the OS 
updates so again folks not wanting to update could apply security patches and 
stay safe with out introducing new features.  That might undo some of the apple 
advantage though but I’m definitely not against putting more choice in to the 
hands of the end user.

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:13 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
>  I think where Apple could do better would be in releasing some documentation 
> regarding how voiceover users are supposed to deal with things that have 
> substantially changed. I don't agree that things have to stay the same. And 
> David's discussion of how to deal with the email was very good. I think that 
> Apple should do that. I also think that Apple should update their 
> documentation on commands, Bluetooth, braille display etc. One of the things 
> about making a commitment to accessibility is to realize that for people who 
> can. See, dealing with the changes to the interface may be a lot easier then 
> for people who can't. That's why they need to employ people who get that, 
> since your average designer doesn't. There are a lot of things that become 
> immediately clear decided people because they can take in the entire 
> interface at once and understand how to deal with it. That's not so easy if 
> you can't do that.
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:47 PM, Cheree Heppe  > wrote:
> 
>> That's nonsense.
>> I pay exactly the same amount for my Apple products as anyone else.
>> Apple claims universal design.
>> When design changes or functional alterations lose the way, that isn't about 
>> somebody pays more, that's about somebody misunderstanding universal design.
>> Luckily, not all sighted people think as you and some others have quoted, or 
>> the disabled and blind would still be sitting by coal scuttles and weaving 
>> baskets to the tune of you are a minority and don't count.
>> Drop the doctored rehab drivel and embrace universal design, not change for 
>> its own sake.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 18:40, michael babcock > > wrote:
>> 
>>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
>>> nothing honestly.
>>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
>>> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
>>> pay more.
>>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>>> A PC…
>>> A Personal Computer … 
>>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes will 
>>> continue paying for them.
>>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing 
>>> there updates, and just had to say, so what…
>>> Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that 
>>> phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.
>>> #choices.
>>> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
>>> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
>>> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released 
>>> helped me a lot.
>>> Thanks for reading my rant.
>>> Best.
>>> 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T. >>> > wrote:
 
  Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time 
 adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If 
 that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump 
 ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
 
  Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
 Applevis.
 
  How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it 
 sure outruns Windows.
 
 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
 Are We Alone in the Universe?
 ancient.ali...@icloud.com 
 
 On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
> system, namely OS.
> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
> iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.
> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
> to be forced into seeking another p

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

You know what’s interesting, I did find the touch screen very intuitive but let 
me qualify that.  I was using touch screens before the apple products.  I was 
one of several on this list who go back to the Mobile speak days on Pocket PC 
devices.  While it seems hokey today at that time that was highly life changing 
stuff.  Having an accessible phone totally changed my professional life for 
example being able to text with my coworkers and receive alerts from automated 
devices and do more than here a random meaningless alert with no idea what was 
being sent to me.
In comparison to mobile speak the whole apple interface seemed 
revolutionary and oddly easy to use because you actually worked with the screen 
instead of tapped in the different corners in combination like a game.  You 
also got visual information like screen placement and layout that was never 
available before.  So my experience probably differs from yours only because I 
came from a really proprietary environment from code factory to a more 
mainstream approach.  Or at least different, maybe mainstream isn’t the best 
way to express it.


> On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:25 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
> What is streamline and what is intuitive? The first time you used a touch 
> device, I daresay, you did not find it intuitive. I know I didn't. Now you 
> and I are used to using the Mail app, for instance, in a certain way. What if 
> it could be pointed out to you, as David did in his post, how to efficiently 
> use the Mail app in a different way? Why is that less intuitive than what you 
> are used to? It is change. It is not necessarily less intuitive. We're iPhone 
> Apple is in not coming out with the documentation to let us know about this 
> stuff when they release the final OS. Fiddling around is for beta testers. 
> When you release a final product which is supposed to be accessible, you need 
> to dot the eyes and cross the tease, and let us know how it is different in 
> terms of our particular accessibility needs. That goes with the territory of 
> universal design. I know reading is out of fashion out with specially with 
> the younger generation. But a little bit of documentation goes a long way.
>  A picture is not necessarily worth a few words, especially when you're 
> dealing with someone who can't see the freaking picture.
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe  > wrote:
> 
>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy system, 
>> namely OS.
>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The iOS 
>> represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.  Among 
>> the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going to 
>> be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This mail 
>> issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve, to make 
>> simpler, to add features.
>> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release 
>> notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful or 
>> easily usable.
>> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on that 
>> clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the iOs.  It 
>> is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place to the more 
>> modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other way round.
>> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.  
>> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at rehab, 
>> insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own good.
>> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk losing 
>> something that could and did change the world for us.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden > > wrote:
>> 
>>> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now looks 
>>> much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
>>> 
>>> When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled the 
>>> same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a thread to 
>>> activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this view, 
>>> single-finger vertical flick moves up and down through the messages. 
>>> Single-finger horrizontal flicks read through the specific message. 
>>> Double-tap on the delete button at the bottom of the screen deletes all 
>>> messages in the thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick moves between 
>>> threads, threads and individual messages which do not belong to threads, 
>>> and individual messages. In other words, the same as single-finger 
>>> horrizontal flick in the message list screen.
>>> 
>>> If one wishes to d

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Donna Goodin]

Keep us all posted on this, Scott.  I will be very interested to hear about 
your experience.  I tried an Android phone--several of them, actually--back in 
2010, and found it to be utterly inferior to the iPhone experience in just 
about every way.  I assume Android accessibility has made some strides since 
then, but my earlier experience was bad enough that I'll let someone else do 
the comparison testing. :)
Cheers,
Donna
> On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:31 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> I sure am but the pure android experience not one rebaked by another vendor.  
> Google hasn’t released their devices yet.  I’d like to do a comparison so 
> I’ll use the 7+ and when the Nexus replacements come out I’ll put down the 7+ 
> and move the SIM to the new phone and compare.  This way it’s a full 
> dedicated experience instead of trying to flip back and forth between devices 
> and take my own advice to commit.:)
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:15 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>> 
>> OK, Scott. But weren't you going to try a more recent android experience?
>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
>>> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock  
 wrote:
 
 Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
 All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
 nothing honestly.
 Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
 business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
 pay more.
 What is a Mac in most cases?
 A PC…
 A Personal Computer … 
 But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes 
 will continue paying for them.
 I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing 
 there updates, and just had to say, so what…
 Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that 
 phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.
 #choices.
 And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
 couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
 didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released 
 helped me a lot.
 Thanks for reading my rant.
 Best.
 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
> 
> Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time 
> adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If 
> that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump 
> ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
> 
> Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
> Applevis.
> 
> How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it 
> sure outruns Windows.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
> Are We Alone in the Universe?
> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> 
>> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
>> system, namely OS.
>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
>> iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.
>> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
>> to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
>> mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
>> to make simpler, to add features.
>> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release
>> notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful
>> or easily usable.
>> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
>> that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the
>> iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place
>> to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other
>> way round.
>> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
>> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at
>> rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own 
>> good.
>> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk
>> losing something that could and did change the world for us.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden > > wrote:
>> 
>>> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visual

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

Simon, I like your humor buddy.;)

Well played sir.

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 3:50 AM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
> 
> Scott,
> 
> Um, that type of prostate exam would probably be ok, because it's now done 
> with a blood test, so captain hook would be able to help get the blood out!
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
> Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 1:46 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
> 
> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
>> nothing honestly.
>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
>> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
>> pay more.
>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>> A PC…
>> A Personal Computer …
>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes will 
>> continue paying for them.
>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing 
>> there updates, and just had to say, so what… Switch to android, back to a 
>> Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that phone?), windows 10 touch 
>> phone, etc.
>> #choices.
>> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
>> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
>> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released 
>> helped me a lot.
>> Thanks for reading my rant.
>> Best.
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time adapting 
>>> to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If that is 
>>> what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump ship. But, 
>>> inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
>>> 
>>> Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
>>> Applevis.
>>> 
>>> How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it 
>>> sure outruns Windows.
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>> Are We Alone in the Universe?
>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>> 
>>> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
 It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
 functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy 
 system, namely OS.
 If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  
 The iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily 
 adopted.
 Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
 If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am 
 going to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook 
 alternative.  This mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update 
 promised to improve, to make simpler, to add features.
 My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No 
 release notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just 
 not helpful or easily usable.
 It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on 
 that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using 
 the iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to 
 give place to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and 
 not the other way round.
 Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
 There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at 
 rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own 
 good.
 I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk 
 losing something that could and did change the world for us.
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden >>> > wrote:
 
> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now 
> looks much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
> 
> When in the main message list, individual messages are still 
> handled the same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one 
> double-taps on a thread to activate it, one goes into a browse 
> thread view. In this view, single-finger vertical flick moves up 
> and down through the messages. Single-finger horrizontal flicks 
> read through the specific message. Double-tap on the delete button 
> at the bottom of the screen deletes all messages in the thread. 
> Three-finger horrizontal flick moves between threads, threads and 
> individual messages which do not belong to threads, and individual 
> messages. In 

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

You know the Samsung devices have a custom interface that is much more iPhone 
like.  That makes it easier for some to transition over.  I have my issues with 
Samsung but others may have a better time of it and that’s one similarity that 
may make it easier and worth while.

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:10 AM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
> 
> Hi Mary,
> 
> I've played with OS 6 from android and I didn't find it any easier to use 
> than os 5 
> 
> Mind you I have to admit I can't stop doing gestures fo rthe iPhone but then 
> that's just because it's my device of preference.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mary Otten
> Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 3:15 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
> 
> OK, Scott. But weren't you going to try a more recent android experience?
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>> 
>> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
>> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
>>> nothing honestly.
>>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
>>> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
>>> pay more.
>>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>>> A PC…
>>> A Personal Computer …
>>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes will 
>>> continue paying for them.
>>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is 
>>> doing there updates, and just had to say, so what… Switch to android, back 
>>> to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that phone?), windows 10 
>>> touch phone, etc.
>>> #choices.
>>> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
>>> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
>>> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released 
>>> helped me a lot.
>>> Thanks for reading my rant.
>>> Best.
>>> 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
 
 Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time adapting 
 to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If that is 
 what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump ship. But, 
 inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
 
 Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
 Applevis.
 
 How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it 
 sure outruns Windows.
 
 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
 Are We Alone in the Universe?
 ancient.ali...@icloud.com
 
> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy 
> system, namely OS.
> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  
> The iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily 
> adopted.
> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am 
> going to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook 
> alternative.  This mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an 
> update promised to improve, to make simpler, to add features.
> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No 
> release notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just 
> not helpful or easily usable.
> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned 
> on that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those 
> using the iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs 
> to give place to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs 
> and not the other way round.
> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at 
> rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own 
> good.
> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or 
> risk losing something that could and did change the world for us.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden  > wrote:
> 
>> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it 
>> now looks much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like 
>> macmail.
>> 
>> When in the main message list, individual messages are still 
>> handled the same as in iOS

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

I’ll do it publicly online so people can follow along through the frustrations 
and successes.  The android world has changed massively since 2010.  Really 
until a few months ago it was pretty pitiful.  Victor and his team took 
talkback to a new level though recently.  Seems like changes internal to google 
and personnel wise took place and the results are highly encouraging.  It’s not 
there yet but it’s a contender where back in your time frame it was most 
definitely not.

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 7:44 AM, Donna Goodin  wrote:
> 
> Keep us all posted on this, Scott.  I will be very interested to hear about 
> your experience.  I tried an Android phone--several of them, actually--back 
> in 2010, and found it to be utterly inferior to the iPhone experience in just 
> about every way.  I assume Android accessibility has made some strides since 
> then, but my earlier experience was bad enough that I'll let someone else do 
> the comparison testing. :)
> Cheers,
> Donna
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:31 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>> 
>> I sure am but the pure android experience not one rebaked by another vendor. 
>>  Google hasn’t released their devices yet.  I’d like to do a comparison so 
>> I’ll use the 7+ and when the Nexus replacements come out I’ll put down the 
>> 7+ and move the SIM to the new phone and compare.  This way it’s a full 
>> dedicated experience instead of trying to flip back and forth between 
>> devices and take my own advice to commit.:)
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:15 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>>> 
>>> OK, Scott. But weren't you going to try a more recent android experience?
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
 
 Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
 prostate exam from Captain Hook.
 
 
 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock 
>  wrote:
> 
> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, 
> means nothing honestly.
> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
> pay more.
> What is a Mac in most cases?
> A PC…
> A Personal Computer … 
> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes 
> will continue paying for them.
> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing 
> there updates, and just had to say, so what…
> Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make 
> that phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.
> #choices.
> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis 
> released helped me a lot.
> Thanks for reading my rant.
> Best.
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>> 
>> Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time 
>> adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. 
>> If that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, 
>> jump ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
>> 
>> Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
>> Applevis.
>> 
>> How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but 
>> it sure outruns Windows.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>> Are We Alone in the Universe?
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> 
>>> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
>>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
>>> system, namely OS.
>>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
>>> iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.
>>> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
>>> to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
>>> mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
>>> to make simpler, to add features.
>>> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release
>>> notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful
>>> or easily usable.
>>> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
>>> that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the
>>> iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place
>>> to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not 

Re: Audio of my iPhone 7 Plus unboxing/familiarisation

[Scott Granados]

It’s popular because it’s new.  Remember back in the space grey days people 
wanted black but the manufacturing process didn’t produce a good result so the 
space grey model came out.

Now you’ve got two flavors of black to choose from.  I hear the jet black 
though is very prone to smudging.

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 7:29 AM, Donna Goodin  wrote:
> 
> I don't get the popularity of the black model.  Going for the rose gold 
> again, myself.  On my way to get my phone this morning!!
> Cheers,
> Donna
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:25 AM, Scott Granados > > wrote:
>> 
>> Mary, you had to be one of the cool kids and get the black model.:)
>> 
>> I heard it’s back ordered until October, true?
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 10:54 PM, Mary Otten >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Oh good. Looking forward to it. Even though my phone is a few weeks away.
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 7:39 PM, Jonathan Mosen >> > wrote:
>>> 
 Hi everyone, following on from our wrap of last week's Apple event, this 
 week's episode of The Blind Side Podcast features a comprehensive 
 unboxing, setting up, and then exploration of the new iPhone 7 Plus.
 If you'd like to take a listen, subscribe to The Blind Side Podcast in any 
 good podcatcher, or you can hear it on Sound Cloud via this URL.
 https://soundcloud.com/theblindsidepodcast/episode6 
 
 Hope you find it interesting.
 Jonathan Mosen
 Mosen Consulting
 Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training
 http://Mosen.org 
 
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>>> Visionaries list.
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>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
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>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
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>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
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>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>  
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara 
>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
>> 
>>  
>> T

Re: in public defense of those who beta test Apple software

[Scott Granados]

Ray, nice try but I’ll believe the legal department of Fidelity way before your 
assessment.  I was advised by my own legal team as well as my employer’s legal 
team that discussion of the public beta was fine.  How much law school do you 
have?

Full stop!

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 10:15 PM, Ray Foret jr  wrote:
> 
> I may have only tested the public betas, but, I’m totally going to stand for 
> Chris and the other Devs here who were always one step ahead of me.  IF not 
> for their pioneering work on all this. what we have now might:  and indeed 
> would be, much much more seriously flawed.  I think we who tested the public 
> betas have something to say to this also, for you see, I was one of them and 
> continue to be.  Now, I want to say something else that I feel is in 
> connection with all this.  Some say we who test the public betas can in fact 
> discuss what we find in public before the final release.  You could not be 
> more in error!!!  Obviously, you don’t know what you are  talking about.  
> Have you bothered to read the terms of agreement that all beta testers, (dev 
> and public alike) must agree to?  No?  Well, permit me to summarize them for 
> you.  We cannot say a thing about what we are finding.  We’re strictly 
> forbidden to show you non testers in any way what it is we are working on.  
> If you think you have so much to say, you either pay the developer fee or 
> test the public beta.  Until then, shut up!  I’m coming out here in such 
> strong defense of dev and public beta testers because I have gone through 
> just about an entire summer of putting up with idiotic fools whoo have NO 
> respect for non disclosure agreements and the seriousness with which such 
> things MUST be taken.  True, not everyone on this list is like that:  in 
> fact, I suspect that most on this particular list understand my point of view 
> on this matter.  But on VORail, (yes I am being specific about the place 
> where most of this stupidity lives) it seemed to reign supreme.  I’m sure I 
> speak for Chris and the other devs and for the other public beta testers here 
> when I say that when we say we cannot discuss something, you’d damn well 
> better take us seriously because we damn well take Apple’s non disclosure 
> agreements very very seriously.  If stupid sighted people on podcasts can’t 
> be bother to take such things seriously and go  blabbing about what they 
> find, that’s their problem.  Also, frankly, it’s not much help to us if Apple 
> doesn’t enforce their own non disclosure agreements.  Well, let the rest blab 
> if they want to:  I, for my part, will NOT.  
> Sent from my Mac, The only computer with full accessibility for the blind 
> built-in
> 
> Sincerely, The Constantly Barefooted Ray
> Still a very happy Mac, Verizon Wireless iPhone6+ and Apple TV user!
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 8:26 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland > > wrote:
>> 
>> Excuse me, Cheree.  that was profoundly disrespectful, not to mention 
>> downright insulting to us devs, me being one of them.  Let me tell you 
>> something.  We devs did! try getting on Apple about stuff like this.  I did 
>> so in iOS 9, and I even more so did in this iOS 10 update beta cycle.  Trust 
>> me.  I was on the 10 beta from June 30th, when it was announced at WWDC 
>> until now.  I've ever since had at least one of my devices on 10.
>>  
>> I've reported bug after bug after bug to them.  I've worked countless hours 
>> to the sweat of my brow! trying to explain these things to them, but no 
>> sollution was ever made.  So don't be putting the blame on us devs, OK?  
>> We've done our damdest! to make this new version of OSX, TVOS, Watch OS, and 
>> iOS as  wonderful as possible.  The thing is, once we make the bug reports 
>> through the bugreporter bug tracker, we really don't then have much of a say 
>> past that point.  If Apple fixes it, great, if not, well, we've done our 
>> parts by reporting it.
>>  
>> Now, if us devs just saw the bug and ignored it, then therefore it was 
>> released buggy, then, I'd totally give this message to you, but, hunttauhh.  
>> I'm not lettin' you have this.  I'm sorry.  Us devs deserve more credit, and 
>> respect!  We really, really really did try!
>>  
>> Can another person on this list who's a dev and paid the 99 for the iOS 10 
>> cycle please speak up and advocate for us all here as well?  This is just 
>> wrong!
>> ---
>> Christopher Gilland
>> JAWS Certified, 2016.
>> Training Instructor.
>>  
>> i...@gillandmarketing.com 
>> Phone: (704) 256-8010.
>>> - Original Message - 
>>> From: Cheree Heppe 
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2016 9:08 PM
>>> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
>>> 
>>> You developers and designers, changers and alter era can flick yourselves 
>>> into you-know-where regarding this chang

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Donna Goodin]

Wow, there's a blast from the past! :)  You're dead on, Scott.  It's funny to 
think how revolutionary those MobileSpeak phones seemed at the time, and I 
would agree, it totally changed my professional and personal life.  Yet now it 
kind of seems like typing on an old manual typewriter.

I think there's a difference between something feeling intuitive once you 
understand it, and being intuitive to figure out.  One thing I would say about 
Apple products, is that I often have the experience that once I know the 
solution to a problem it makes perfect sense, but finding the solution isn't 
always easy.  Ideally, both parts of the equation should be intuitive, but I 
suppose that starts to get kind of subjective.  Note that I haven't upgraded, 
so haven't tried the Mail app yet.
Cheers,
Donna


> On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:42 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> You know what’s interesting, I did find the touch screen very intuitive but 
> let me qualify that.  I was using touch screens before the apple products.  I 
> was one of several on this list who go back to the Mobile speak days on 
> Pocket PC devices.  While it seems hokey today at that time that was highly 
> life changing stuff.  Having an accessible phone totally changed my 
> professional life for example being able to text with my coworkers and 
> receive alerts from automated devices and do more than here a random 
> meaningless alert with no idea what was being sent to me.
>   In comparison to mobile speak the whole apple interface seemed 
> revolutionary and oddly easy to use because you actually worked with the 
> screen instead of tapped in the different corners in combination like a game. 
>  You also got visual information like screen placement and layout that was 
> never available before.  So my experience probably differs from yours only 
> because I came from a really proprietary environment from code factory to a 
> more mainstream approach.  Or at least different, maybe mainstream isn’t the 
> best way to express it.
> 
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:25 PM, Mary Otten > > wrote:
>> 
>> What is streamline and what is intuitive? The first time you used a touch 
>> device, I daresay, you did not find it intuitive. I know I didn't. Now you 
>> and I are used to using the Mail app, for instance, in a certain way. What 
>> if it could be pointed out to you, as David did in his post, how to 
>> efficiently use the Mail app in a different way? Why is that less intuitive 
>> than what you are used to? It is change. It is not necessarily less 
>> intuitive. We're iPhone Apple is in not coming out with the documentation to 
>> let us know about this stuff when they release the final OS. Fiddling around 
>> is for beta testers. When you release a final product which is supposed to 
>> be accessible, you need to dot the eyes and cross the tease, and let us know 
>> how it is different in terms of our particular accessibility needs. That 
>> goes with the territory of universal design. I know reading is out of 
>> fashion out with specially with the younger generation. But a little bit of 
>> documentation goes a long way.
>>  A picture is not necessarily worth a few words, especially when you're 
>> dealing with someone who can't see the freaking picture.
>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe > > wrote:
>> 
>>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
>>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy system, 
>>> namely OS.
>>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The iOS 
>>> represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.  Among 
>>> the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going to 
>>> be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This mail 
>>> issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve, to make 
>>> simpler, to add features.
>>> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release 
>>> notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful or 
>>> easily usable.
>>> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on that 
>>> clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the iOs.  
>>> It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place to the 
>>> more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other way round.
>>> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.  
>>> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at rehab, 
>>> insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own good.
>>> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk losing 
>>> something that could and did change the world for us.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Sep 15,

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Donna Goodin]

The Samsung phone I had was easily my favorite Windows Mobile phone.  If I ever 
switch to Android, I'd be very tempted to go with a Samsung.
Cheers,
Donna
> On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:45 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> You know the Samsung devices have a custom interface that is much more iPhone 
> like.  That makes it easier for some to transition over.  I have my issues 
> with Samsung but others may have a better time of it and that’s one 
> similarity that may make it easier and worth while.
> 
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:10 AM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Mary,
>> 
>> I've played with OS 6 from android and I didn't find it any easier to use 
>> than os 5 
>> 
>> Mind you I have to admit I can't stop doing gestures fo rthe iPhone but then 
>> that's just because it's my device of preference.
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mary Otten
>> Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 3:15 PM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
>> 
>> OK, Scott. But weren't you going to try a more recent android experience?
>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
>>> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock  
 wrote:
 
 Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
 All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
 nothing honestly.
 Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
 business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
 pay more.
 What is a Mac in most cases?
 A PC…
 A Personal Computer …
 But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes 
 will continue paying for them.
 I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is 
 doing there updates, and just had to say, so what… Switch to android, back 
 to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that phone?), windows 10 
 touch phone, etc.
 #choices.
 And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
 couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
 didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released 
 helped me a lot.
 Thanks for reading my rant.
 Best.
 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
> 
> Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time 
> adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If 
> that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump 
> ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
> 
> Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
> Applevis.
> 
> How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it 
> sure outruns Windows.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
> Are We Alone in the Universe?
> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> 
>> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy 
>> system, namely OS.
>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  
>> The iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily 
>> adopted.
>> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am 
>> going to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook 
>> alternative.  This mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an 
>> update promised to improve, to make simpler, to add features.
>> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No 
>> release notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just 
>> not helpful or easily usable.
>> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned 
>> on that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those 
>> using the iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs 
>> to give place to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs 
>> and not the other way round.
>> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
>> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at 
>> rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own 
>> good.
>> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or 
>> risk losing something that could and did change the world for us.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chitte

Re: in public defense of those who beta test Apple software

[Scott Granados]

Sounds like a private beta to me which is comparing apples and oranges.

The developers involved in the private cycle are very much restricted but once 
public is added it’s a whole new ballgame.

And thanks for doing the testing you do, the deaf blind community is probably 
pretty under represented.  That’s great you stepped up along with the others.
 

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 10:35 PM, maurice.mines  wrote:
> 
> Good evening, I too have been a beta tester for the last three summers. I 
> almost didn’t do it this summer because for the first time I am actually 
> really very much deaf blind these days. But the good far outweighed any of my 
> concerns. And like the person when responding to I don’t discuss what’s in 
> prerelease software. The only time I will do it is when it can be done very 
> discreetly and handled in a professional manner i.e. with a developer of a 
> major piece of adaptive software. In other words what I’m getting at here is 
> that if I have to discuss something that can be harmful to us as blind people 
> with a developer, with the understanding that the discussion doesn’t leave 
> us, that is the only instance when I break a nondisclosure agreement. Because 
> many moons ago I used to administrate over a beta test program, I don’t know 
> how me on this list remember the old outspoken software title, remember that 
> it was for the very old McIntosh computers, and up until Windows 95 was also 
> run on those computers as well. I was asked in addition to doing tech support 
> stuff at one time to administrate over a beta test program, and the only 
> folks I laden were engineers, and other professionals long with talking over 
> with my boss at the time when the availing folks we approved were 
> professional strictly because of some of what we are discussing on the list. 
> And the concerns about what some major disability related pod casters choose 
> to do, most of them if they’re smart clear their podcasts with the vendors in 
> question before they release podcasts that share proprietary information. Or 
> at least, I hope they do that would just be good common sense to avoid a 
> potential lawsuit. However I certainly agree with Ray, it is certainly up to 
> the company that has imposed the nondisclosure agreement on a beta tester to 
> enforce it. The problem here is the court of public opinion. The media 
> sometimes put stories out that big stent looked like society is nailing a 
> disabled person, without sharing the full story. And so that can sometimes 
> make a company look bad, when it was the customers fault that something 
> happened. So I think some of apples appearance of not enforcing their 
> nondisclosure agreement, is simply because you don’t want bad press. It also 
> depends on the severity of the breach of confidentiality if it’s a minor 
> feature that leaks, then it’s probably no big deal. But if it’s a large 
> feature a.k.a. most of the company’s core business necessity, they are 
> definitely going to come down on some money who does that because not all 
> companies are the size of Apple, and/or Microsoft used for example here, 
> particularly in the adaptive technology world, most companies are very small. 
> So breaking a nondisclosure agreement most companies in our field can even 
> mean to accompany going out of business. I guess the moral of the very 
> lengthy story is this, think before you start spilling the beans. Who are you 
> really benefiting, and are you hurting the disability comunity more than 
> helping, because companies like Apple who make public betas available might 
> think twice about letting those of us in the adaptive technology field, and 
> the disability community in general beta test something if they feel that 
> they’re being taken advantage of it takes years to get goodwill from large 
> corporations like Apple and Microsoft. Let’s not go out and destroy that 
> goodwill because that’s how we get whatever we want to get done on our 
> computers goodwill and the law a.k.a. let’s keep the bridge there not blow 
> the bridge up so that already have is the bottom of whatever body of water 
> that which was once over. The end
> 
> Sincerely Maurice mines.
> note that the text of my comments have been dictated to the computer by using 
> Dragon version 6 for Mac OS. If there in the text that I’ve dictated to the 
> computer, those errors may be caused by problems with the process of 
> dictating the text to the computer, or the software configuration itself. If 
> there’s something you didn’t understand that I’ve written,. Please ask me 
> what my original intent was? I will do my very best to clear up any 
> misunderstandings.
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 7:15 PM, Ray Foret jr > > wrote:
>> 
>> I may have only tested the public betas, but, I’m totally going to stand for 
>> Chris and the other Devs here who were always one step ahead of me.  IF not 
>> for their pioneering work on all this. what we 

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Donna Goodin]

This is very good to hear.  Hopefully, they've lost that jerk T.V. Rahman.  I 
hope you are right, I think it's always better to have more choices.
Cheers,
Donna
> On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:48 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> I’ll do it publicly online so people can follow along through the 
> frustrations and successes.  The android world has changed massively since 
> 2010.  Really until a few months ago it was pretty pitiful.  Victor and his 
> team took talkback to a new level though recently.  Seems like changes 
> internal to google and personnel wise took place and the results are highly 
> encouraging.  It’s not there yet but it’s a contender where back in your time 
> frame it was most definitely not.
> 
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 7:44 AM, Donna Goodin  wrote:
>> 
>> Keep us all posted on this, Scott.  I will be very interested to hear about 
>> your experience.  I tried an Android phone--several of them, actually--back 
>> in 2010, and found it to be utterly inferior to the iPhone experience in 
>> just about every way.  I assume Android accessibility has made some strides 
>> since then, but my earlier experience was bad enough that I'll let someone 
>> else do the comparison testing. :)
>> Cheers,
>> Donna
>>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:31 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I sure am but the pure android experience not one rebaked by another 
>>> vendor.  Google hasn’t released their devices yet.  I’d like to do a 
>>> comparison so I’ll use the 7+ and when the Nexus replacements come out I’ll 
>>> put down the 7+ and move the SIM to the new phone and compare.  This way 
>>> it’s a full dedicated experience instead of trying to flip back and forth 
>>> between devices and take my own advice to commit.:)
>>> 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:15 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
 
 OK, Scott. But weren't you going to try a more recent android experience?
 Mary
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, 
>> means nothing honestly.
>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the 
>> everyone business and the people who do like there products and services 
>> obviously pay more.
>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>> A PC…
>> A Personal Computer … 
>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes 
>> will continue paying for them.
>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing 
>> there updates, and just had to say, so what…
>> Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make 
>> that phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.
>> #choices.
>> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
>> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
>> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis 
>> released helped me a lot.
>> Thanks for reading my rant.
>> Best.
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time 
>>> adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. 
>>> If that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, 
>>> jump ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
>>> 
>>> Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
>>> Applevis.
>>> 
>>> How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but 
>>> it sure outruns Windows.
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>> Are We Alone in the Universe?
>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>> 
 On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
 It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
 functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
 system, namely OS.
 If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
 iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily 
 adopted.
 Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
 If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
 to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
 mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
 to make simpler, to add features.
 My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No 
 release
 notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just

Re: Audio of my iPhone 7 Plus unboxing/familiarisation

[Donna Goodin]

Yeah, I do remember that.  Still sticking with rose gold. :)
Donna
> On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:50 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> It’s popular because it’s new.  Remember back in the space grey days people 
> wanted black but the manufacturing process didn’t produce a good result so 
> the space grey model came out.
> 
> Now you’ve got two flavors of black to choose from.  I hear the jet black 
> though is very prone to smudging.
> 
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 7:29 AM, Donna Goodin > > wrote:
>> 
>> I don't get the popularity of the black model.  Going for the rose gold 
>> again, myself.  On my way to get my phone this morning!!
>> Cheers,
>> Donna
>>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:25 AM, Scott Granados >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Mary, you had to be one of the cool kids and get the black model.:)
>>> 
>>> I heard it’s back ordered until October, true?
>>> 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 10:54 PM, Mary Otten >>> > wrote:
 
 Oh good. Looking forward to it. Even though my phone is a few weeks away.
 Mary
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 7:39 PM, Jonathan Mosen >>> > wrote:
 
> Hi everyone, following on from our wrap of last week's Apple event, this 
> week's episode of The Blind Side Podcast features a comprehensive 
> unboxing, setting up, and then exploration of the new iPhone 7 Plus.
> If you'd like to take a listen, subscribe to The Blind Side Podcast in 
> any good podcatcher, or you can hear it on Sound Cloud via this URL.
> https://soundcloud.com/theblindsidepodcast/episode6 
> 
> Hope you find it interesting.
> Jonathan Mosen
> Mosen Consulting
> Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training
> http://Mosen.org 
> 
> -- 
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>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>>>  
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please con

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

You know you make a really interesting point.  Thinking back on it, I went from 
a PPC-6850 to an iPod.  I remember breaking that guy out of the box and just 
sort of nudeling around with it for a few minutes and I’d say with in an hour I 
was comfortable with the very basics.  I remember taking a long time to work up 
to the app store and using apps because I was surprised they would be 
accessible having no such luck on the power PC.  The thing I’ve noticed with 
sited and blind alike is with an Apple device you can pick it up even with out 
initial training and there’s parts of it that just make sense and click.  My 
father’s a great example of this.  I handed him an iPad and had to admonish him 
twice on the ride home to stop playing with his iPad and driving at the same 
time.:) With in a week he new more hand gestures than I did and he never looked 
back.  Impressive to see but that’s been a big push from Apple back to the days 
of the Lisa.  Anyone remember Steve Job’s daughter’s experience with paint on 
the Mac?  I think intuitive use has been a thrust of apple since after the 
switch from the Apple 2 to the graphical devices.

 

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 7:53 AM, Donna Goodin  wrote:
> 
> Wow, there's a blast from the past! :)  You're dead on, Scott.  It's funny to 
> think how revolutionary those MobileSpeak phones seemed at the time, and I 
> would agree, it totally changed my professional and personal life.  Yet now 
> it kind of seems like typing on an old manual typewriter.
> 
> I think there's a difference between something feeling intuitive once you 
> understand it, and being intuitive to figure out.  One thing I would say 
> about Apple products, is that I often have the experience that once I know 
> the solution to a problem it makes perfect sense, but finding the solution 
> isn't always easy.  Ideally, both parts of the equation should be intuitive, 
> but I suppose that starts to get kind of subjective.  Note that I haven't 
> upgraded, so haven't tried the Mail app yet.
> Cheers,
> Donna
> 
> 
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:42 AM, Scott Granados > > wrote:
>> 
>> You know what’s interesting, I did find the touch screen very intuitive but 
>> let me qualify that.  I was using touch screens before the apple products.  
>> I was one of several on this list who go back to the Mobile speak days on 
>> Pocket PC devices.  While it seems hokey today at that time that was highly 
>> life changing stuff.  Having an accessible phone totally changed my 
>> professional life for example being able to text with my coworkers and 
>> receive alerts from automated devices and do more than here a random 
>> meaningless alert with no idea what was being sent to me.
>>  In comparison to mobile speak the whole apple interface seemed 
>> revolutionary and oddly easy to use because you actually worked with the 
>> screen instead of tapped in the different corners in combination like a 
>> game.  You also got visual information like screen placement and layout that 
>> was never available before.  So my experience probably differs from yours 
>> only because I came from a really proprietary environment from code factory 
>> to a more mainstream approach.  Or at least different, maybe mainstream 
>> isn’t the best way to express it.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:25 PM, Mary Otten >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> What is streamline and what is intuitive? The first time you used a touch 
>>> device, I daresay, you did not find it intuitive. I know I didn't. Now you 
>>> and I are used to using the Mail app, for instance, in a certain way. What 
>>> if it could be pointed out to you, as David did in his post, how to 
>>> efficiently use the Mail app in a different way? Why is that less intuitive 
>>> than what you are used to? It is change. It is not necessarily less 
>>> intuitive. We're iPhone Apple is in not coming out with the documentation 
>>> to let us know about this stuff when they release the final OS. Fiddling 
>>> around is for beta testers. When you release a final product which is 
>>> supposed to be accessible, you need to dot the eyes and cross the tease, 
>>> and let us know how it is different in terms of our particular 
>>> accessibility needs. That goes with the territory of universal design. I 
>>> know reading is out of fashion out with specially with the younger 
>>> generation. But a little bit of documentation goes a long way.
>>>  A picture is not necessarily worth a few words, especially when you're 
>>> dealing with someone who can't see the freaking picture.
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe >> > wrote:
>>> 
 It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
 functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy system, 
 namely OS.
 If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The iOS 
>

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Donna Goodin]

You know, that's interesting.  I've had a similar experience watching my 
parents with iPads and iPhones, but what's funny is that my dad, who was a 
programmer back in the days of punch cards and computers that took up an entire 
large room, has found the iPhone difficult to get used to, whereas my mom, who 
will tell anyone who wants to know that technology hates her, has taken to the 
iPad very easily.  I think my mom's lack of prior computer experience actually 
helped her, because she didn't have a bunch of preconceived notions about how 
things are "supposed to" work.
Cheers,
Donna
> On Sep 16, 2016, at 7:02 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> You know you make a really interesting point.  Thinking back on it, I went 
> from a PPC-6850 to an iPod.  I remember breaking that guy out of the box and 
> just sort of nudeling around with it for a few minutes and I’d say with in an 
> hour I was comfortable with the very basics.  I remember taking a long time 
> to work up to the app store and using apps because I was surprised they would 
> be accessible having no such luck on the power PC.  The thing I’ve noticed 
> with sited and blind alike is with an Apple device you can pick it up even 
> with out initial training and there’s parts of it that just make sense and 
> click.  My father’s a great example of this.  I handed him an iPad and had to 
> admonish him twice on the ride home to stop playing with his iPad and driving 
> at the same time.:) With in a week he new more hand gestures than I did and 
> he never looked back.  Impressive to see but that’s been a big push from 
> Apple back to the days of the Lisa.  Anyone remember Steve Job’s daughter’s 
> experience with paint on the Mac?  I think intuitive use has been a thrust of 
> apple since after the switch from the Apple 2 to the graphical devices.
> 
>  
> 
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 7:53 AM, Donna Goodin > > wrote:
>> 
>> Wow, there's a blast from the past! :)  You're dead on, Scott.  It's funny 
>> to think how revolutionary those MobileSpeak phones seemed at the time, and 
>> I would agree, it totally changed my professional and personal life.  Yet 
>> now it kind of seems like typing on an old manual typewriter.
>> 
>> I think there's a difference between something feeling intuitive once you 
>> understand it, and being intuitive to figure out.  One thing I would say 
>> about Apple products, is that I often have the experience that once I know 
>> the solution to a problem it makes perfect sense, but finding the solution 
>> isn't always easy.  Ideally, both parts of the equation should be intuitive, 
>> but I suppose that starts to get kind of subjective.  Note that I haven't 
>> upgraded, so haven't tried the Mail app yet.
>> Cheers,
>> Donna
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:42 AM, Scott Granados >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> You know what’s interesting, I did find the touch screen very intuitive but 
>>> let me qualify that.  I was using touch screens before the apple products.  
>>> I was one of several on this list who go back to the Mobile speak days on 
>>> Pocket PC devices.  While it seems hokey today at that time that was highly 
>>> life changing stuff.  Having an accessible phone totally changed my 
>>> professional life for example being able to text with my coworkers and 
>>> receive alerts from automated devices and do more than here a random 
>>> meaningless alert with no idea what was being sent to me.
>>> In comparison to mobile speak the whole apple interface seemed 
>>> revolutionary and oddly easy to use because you actually worked with the 
>>> screen instead of tapped in the different corners in combination like a 
>>> game.  You also got visual information like screen placement and layout 
>>> that was never available before.  So my experience probably differs from 
>>> yours only because I came from a really proprietary environment from code 
>>> factory to a more mainstream approach.  Or at least different, maybe 
>>> mainstream isn’t the best way to express it.
>>> 
>>> 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:25 PM, Mary Otten >>> > wrote:
 
 What is streamline and what is intuitive? The first time you used a touch 
 device, I daresay, you did not find it intuitive. I know I didn't. Now you 
 and I are used to using the Mail app, for instance, in a certain way. What 
 if it could be pointed out to you, as David did in his post, how to 
 efficiently use the Mail app in a different way? Why is that less 
 intuitive than what you are used to? It is change. It is not necessarily 
 less intuitive. We're iPhone Apple is in not coming out with the 
 documentation to let us know about this stuff when they release the final 
 OS. Fiddling around is for beta testers. When you release a final product 
 which is supposed to be accessible, you need to dot the eyes and cross the 
 tease, and let us know how it is different 

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Krister Ekstrom]

I can confirm the experience of the Samsung devices being more iPhone like. 
That helped me a lot in the switch. ’nough said about that here.
/Krister

> 16 sep. 2016 kl. 13:45 skrev Scott Granados :
> 
> You know the Samsung devices have a custom interface that is much more iPhone 
> like.  That makes it easier for some to transition over.  I have my issues 
> with Samsung but others may have a better time of it and that’s one 
> similarity that may make it easier and worth while.
> 
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:10 AM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Mary,
>> 
>> I've played with OS 6 from android and I didn't find it any easier to use 
>> than os 5 
>> 
>> Mind you I have to admit I can't stop doing gestures fo rthe iPhone but then 
>> that's just because it's my device of preference.
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mary Otten
>> Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 3:15 PM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
>> 
>> OK, Scott. But weren't you going to try a more recent android experience?
>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
>>> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock  
 wrote:
 
 Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
 All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
 nothing honestly.
 Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
 business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
 pay more.
 What is a Mac in most cases?
 A PC…
 A Personal Computer …
 But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes 
 will continue paying for them.
 I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is 
 doing there updates, and just had to say, so what… Switch to android, back 
 to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that phone?), windows 10 
 touch phone, etc.
 #choices.
 And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
 couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
 didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released 
 helped me a lot.
 Thanks for reading my rant.
 Best.
 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
> 
> Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time 
> adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If 
> that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump 
> ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
> 
> Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
> Applevis.
> 
> How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it 
> sure outruns Windows.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
> Are We Alone in the Universe?
> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> 
>> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy 
>> system, namely OS.
>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  
>> The iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily 
>> adopted.
>> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am 
>> going to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook 
>> alternative.  This mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an 
>> update promised to improve, to make simpler, to add features.
>> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No 
>> release notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just 
>> not helpful or easily usable.
>> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned 
>> on that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those 
>> using the iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs 
>> to give place to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs 
>> and not the other way round.
>> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
>> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at 
>> rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own 
>> good.
>> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or 
>> risk losing something that could and did change the world for us.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden >

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

I’m interested actually and if Mark or Kara want it to stop then by all means 
but if you wouldn’t mind detailing your experience.  Did you switch over, are 
you using both?  Which model phone did you switch to or are using along with 
the iPhone?

Like I said my last experience was an S5 and I ended up shooting the phone.:)  
I assume you’re using something newer though.  How did it go for you?

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 8:11 AM, Krister Ekstrom  
> wrote:
> 
> I can confirm the experience of the Samsung devices being more iPhone like. 
> That helped me a lot in the switch. ’nough said about that here.
> /Krister
> 
>> 16 sep. 2016 kl. 13:45 skrev Scott Granados :
>> 
>> You know the Samsung devices have a custom interface that is much more 
>> iPhone like.  That makes it easier for some to transition over.  I have my 
>> issues with Samsung but others may have a better time of it and that’s one 
>> similarity that may make it easier and worth while.
>> 
>>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:10 AM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Mary,
>>> 
>>> I've played with OS 6 from android and I didn't find it any easier to use 
>>> than os 5 
>>> 
>>> Mind you I have to admit I can't stop doing gestures fo rthe iPhone but 
>>> then that's just because it's my device of preference.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mary Otten
>>> Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 3:15 PM
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
>>> 
>>> OK, Scott. But weren't you going to try a more recent android experience?
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
 
 Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
 prostate exam from Captain Hook.
 
 
 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock 
>  wrote:
> 
> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, 
> means nothing honestly.
> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
> pay more.
> What is a Mac in most cases?
> A PC…
> A Personal Computer …
> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes 
> will continue paying for them.
> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is 
> doing there updates, and just had to say, so what… Switch to android, 
> back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that phone?), windows 
> 10 touch phone, etc.
> #choices.
> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis 
> released helped me a lot.
> Thanks for reading my rant.
> Best.
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>> 
>> Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time 
>> adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. 
>> If that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, 
>> jump ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
>> 
>> Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
>> Applevis.
>> 
>> How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but 
>> it sure outruns Windows.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>> Are We Alone in the Universe?
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> 
>>> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
>>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy 
>>> system, namely OS.
>>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  
>>> The iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily 
>>> adopted.
>>> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am 
>>> going to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook 
>>> alternative.  This mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an 
>>> update promised to improve, to make simpler, to add features.
>>> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No 
>>> release notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just 
>>> not helpful or easily usable.
>>> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned 
>>> on that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those 
>>> using the iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs 
>>> to give place to the more modern, 

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

I think your dead on.  I think there are different mind sets as well.  I think 
some who may be more technical or more of an engineering mindset like Android.  
The openness, the way things are done etc.  Where others just want to use the 
phone not get under the hood.  That’s an interesting contrast Donna that I have 
seen as well.
 

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 8:11 AM, Donna Goodin  wrote:
> 
> You know, that's interesting.  I've had a similar experience watching my 
> parents with iPads and iPhones, but what's funny is that my dad, who was a 
> programmer back in the days of punch cards and computers that took up an 
> entire large room, has found the iPhone difficult to get used to, whereas my 
> mom, who will tell anyone who wants to know that technology hates her, has 
> taken to the iPad very easily.  I think my mom's lack of prior computer 
> experience actually helped her, because she didn't have a bunch of 
> preconceived notions about how things are "supposed to" work.
> Cheers,
> Donna
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 7:02 AM, Scott Granados > > wrote:
>> 
>> You know you make a really interesting point.  Thinking back on it, I went 
>> from a PPC-6850 to an iPod.  I remember breaking that guy out of the box and 
>> just sort of nudeling around with it for a few minutes and I’d say with in 
>> an hour I was comfortable with the very basics.  I remember taking a long 
>> time to work up to the app store and using apps because I was surprised they 
>> would be accessible having no such luck on the power PC.  The thing I’ve 
>> noticed with sited and blind alike is with an Apple device you can pick it 
>> up even with out initial training and there’s parts of it that just make 
>> sense and click.  My father’s a great example of this.  I handed him an iPad 
>> and had to admonish him twice on the ride home to stop playing with his iPad 
>> and driving at the same time.:) With in a week he new more hand gestures 
>> than I did and he never looked back.  Impressive to see but that’s been a 
>> big push from Apple back to the days of the Lisa.  Anyone remember Steve 
>> Job’s daughter’s experience with paint on the Mac?  I think intuitive use 
>> has been a thrust of apple since after the switch from the Apple 2 to the 
>> graphical devices.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 7:53 AM, Donna Goodin >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Wow, there's a blast from the past! :)  You're dead on, Scott.  It's funny 
>>> to think how revolutionary those MobileSpeak phones seemed at the time, and 
>>> I would agree, it totally changed my professional and personal life.  Yet 
>>> now it kind of seems like typing on an old manual typewriter.
>>> 
>>> I think there's a difference between something feeling intuitive once you 
>>> understand it, and being intuitive to figure out.  One thing I would say 
>>> about Apple products, is that I often have the experience that once I know 
>>> the solution to a problem it makes perfect sense, but finding the solution 
>>> isn't always easy.  Ideally, both parts of the equation should be 
>>> intuitive, but I suppose that starts to get kind of subjective.  Note that 
>>> I haven't upgraded, so haven't tried the Mail app yet.
>>> Cheers,
>>> Donna
>>> 
>>> 
 On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:42 AM, Scott Granados >>> > wrote:
 
 You know what’s interesting, I did find the touch screen very intuitive 
 but let me qualify that.  I was using touch screens before the apple 
 products.  I was one of several on this list who go back to the Mobile 
 speak days on Pocket PC devices.  While it seems hokey today at that time 
 that was highly life changing stuff.  Having an accessible phone totally 
 changed my professional life for example being able to text with my 
 coworkers and receive alerts from automated devices and do more than here 
 a random meaningless alert with no idea what was being sent to me.
In comparison to mobile speak the whole apple interface seemed 
 revolutionary and oddly easy to use because you actually worked with the 
 screen instead of tapped in the different corners in combination like a 
 game.  You also got visual information like screen placement and layout 
 that was never available before.  So my experience probably differs from 
 yours only because I came from a really proprietary environment from code 
 factory to a more mainstream approach.  Or at least different, maybe 
 mainstream isn’t the best way to express it.
 
 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:25 PM, Mary Otten  > wrote:
> 
> What is streamline and what is intuitive? The first time you used a touch 
> device, I daresay, you did not find it intuitive. I know I didn't. Now 
> you and I are used to using the Mail app, for instance, in a certain way. 
> What if it could be pointed out to you, as David did in his post, how t

A very important lesson that I have learnt today re Apple.

[Kawal Gucukoglu]

Hello.

I went to the Apple store today expecting to come home with an I phone 7 Plus 
256 and an new Apple watch series 2.

I got to the store and there was a queue of people standing outside.  So the 
person who was helping me got me to a member of staff as I left my cane at home 
silly me.

I asked if I could buy the 7 Plus 256 and Apple watch.  He said there were no 
phones left but I could go inside and buy the watch.  Went in there and the 
watch that I wanted was not even in stock.  I had rang Apple recently to ask if 
I should reserve the phone and watch but I was told that I should walk in and 
just buy the products on the day.

So now I am home without the things that I wanted.  However the person in the 
Apple store was able to preorder everything for me in one order which I would 
have not been able to do on the Apple app.

Just can’t believe it that at 12 30 there was nothing left in any store.  No 
reservations could be made until six a.m. tomorrow and it was not guaranteed 
that there would be a phone there.  So all I can say wow.

Kawal.
I'm fundraising for RNIB.

Please help me make a difference by making a donation to my Virgin Money Giving 
page. 

To find out more about what I'm doing and why, please visit 
http://www.virginmoneygiving.com/team/RNIBiceland where you can also sponsor me 
online.

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Re: A very important lesson that I have learnt today re Apple.

[Scott Granados]

Kawal, they announced yesterday on US TV anyway that all the + models were sold 
out in the preorder.  That’s amazing to me.  Even the apple stores had the 6S+ 
last year when it came out.  It’s hard for me to believe the 7 is this big of a 
hit.

I’ve already had one call from a friend offering me double for my phone.

My stock portfolio though is happy with Apple at 5 month highs.:)

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 8:23 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu  wrote:
> 
> Hello.
> 
> I went to the Apple store today expecting to come home with an I phone 7 Plus 
> 256 and an new Apple watch series 2.
> 
> I got to the store and there was a queue of people standing outside.  So the 
> person who was helping me got me to a member of staff as I left my cane at 
> home silly me.
> 
> I asked if I could buy the 7 Plus 256 and Apple watch.  He said there were no 
> phones left but I could go inside and buy the watch.  Went in there and the 
> watch that I wanted was not even in stock.  I had rang Apple recently to ask 
> if I should reserve the phone and watch but I was told that I should walk in 
> and just buy the products on the day.
> 
> So now I am home without the things that I wanted.  However the person in the 
> Apple store was able to preorder everything for me in one order which I would 
> have not been able to do on the Apple app.
> 
> Just can’t believe it that at 12 30 there was nothing left in any store.  No 
> reservations could be made until six a.m. tomorrow and it was not guaranteed 
> that there would be a phone there.  So all I can say wow.
> 
> Kawal.
> I'm fundraising for RNIB.
> 
> Please help me make a difference by making a donation to my Virgin Money 
> Giving page. 
> 
> To find out more about what I'm doing and why, please visit 
> http://www.virginmoneygiving.com/team/RNIBiceland 
>  where you can also 
> sponsor me online.
> 
> 
> -- 
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> list.
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Re: Audio of my iPhone 7 Plus unboxing/familiarisation

[Mary Otten]

My shipping estimate from T mobile is anywhere from September 26 through 
October 10. I would've been happy with space gray, but they got rid of it, so I 
went for Matt black. Obviously, since I can't see, I don't care about color. 
But sighted friends tell me that the matblack will show the fewest fingerprints 
and dirt. Works for me.

Mary


Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:25 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> Mary, you had to be one of the cool kids and get the black model.:)
> 
> I heard it’s back ordered until October, true?
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 10:54 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>> 
>> Oh good. Looking forward to it. Even though my phone is a few weeks away.
>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 7:39 PM, Jonathan Mosen  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi everyone, following on from our wrap of last week's Apple event, this 
>>> week's episode of The Blind Side Podcast features a comprehensive unboxing, 
>>> setting up, and then exploration of the new iPhone 7 Plus.
>>> If you'd like to take a listen, subscribe to The Blind Side Podcast in any 
>>> good podcatcher, or you can hear it on Sound Cloud via this URL.
>>> https://soundcloud.com/theblindsidepodcast/episode6
>>> Hope you find it interesting.
>>> Jonathan Mosen
>>> Mosen Consulting
>>> Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training
>>> http://Mosen.org
>>> 
>>> 
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Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Tim Kilburn]

Hi,

It's interesting to me how many proclaim that change to an interface or 
interaction is counterproductive or backwards intuitive.  Each time Apple, 
Microsoft ()sorry for swearing on list), or Google change something that we are 
all used to doing, a loud and, often, obnoxious noise is heard.  I recall a 
huge noise made when Apple changed the look of iTunes, both by VO users on my 
various lists and by sighted users, including my own family.  I also recall a 
huge noise that was made when the look and feel of Word changed.  Most of us 
have got used to these changes, embraced pretty well all of them and, in lots 
of cases, have come to prefer these new ways of interaction.  Now, as a change 
has been made once again, here comes the noise.

As a matter of interest, the designers at these corporations don't pull these 
ideas out of their behind.  They are usually derived from users, and the public 
wanting their devices to accomplish things and/or work towards a new 
development or experience.  Some are stepping stones, others are just new ways 
of dealing with things that we've become accustomed to.  I get it, often these 
changes don't initially appear to be helpful, useful or even desirable, and 
they usually take time to become part of our experience, yet they do.

I fully expect that in a years time, and probably in two years time, when the 
next batch of iOS, or MacOS, or whatever hybrid of them is in the wind is 
released, we'll hear this same old tune again.  Music to my ears, NOT.

I'll be quiet on this thread now.  Fell off my soap box.

Later...

Tim Kilburn
Fort McMurray, AB Canada

On Sep 15, 2016, at 19:23, Scott Granados  wrote:

It’s also counter productive to stagnate.

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:03 PM, Cheree Heppe  > wrote:
> 
> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined functionality, 
> such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy system, namely OS.
> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The iOS 
> represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.  Among 
> the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going to be 
> forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This mail issue 
> mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve, to make simpler, 
> to add features.
> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release 
> notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful or 
> easily usable.
> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on that 
> clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the iOs.  It 
> is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place to the more 
> modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other way round.
> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.  
> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at rehab, 
> insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own good.
> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk losing 
> something that could and did change the world for us.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden  > wrote:
> 
>> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now looks 
>> much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
>> 
>> When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled the 
>> same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a thread to 
>> activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this view, single-finger 
>> vertical flick moves up and down through the messages. Single-finger 
>> horrizontal flicks read through the specific message. Double-tap on the 
>> delete button at the bottom of the screen deletes all messages in the 
>> thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick moves between threads, threads and 
>> individual messages which do not belong to threads, and individual messages. 
>> In other words, the same as single-finger horrizontal flick in the message 
>> list screen.
>> 
>> If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread must be 
>> expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger vertical flick to 
>> expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is unpacked and all the 
>> messages in the thread are treated like non-thread messages. Now that I have 
>> become used to this new system, I really like it. It took me a few hours of 
>> frustration to become used to this new system.
>> 
>> I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging the behaviours of apps for iOS 
>> and Mac, that we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love touch-screen and 
>> want my touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.
>> 
>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com 

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Christopher-Mark Gilland]

T.V. Rahman hasn't been on the team for almost 7 years now.  He's long long 
long long long! since been gone.

---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

i...@gillandmarketing.com
Phone: (704) 256-8010.
- Original Message - 
From: "Donna Goodin" 

To: 
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 7:57 AM
Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes


This is very good to hear.  Hopefully, they've lost that jerk T.V. Rahman. 
I hope you are right, I think it's always better to have more choices.

Cheers,
Donna

On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:48 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:

I’ll do it publicly online so people can follow along through the 
frustrations and successes.  The android world has changed massively since 
2010.  Really until a few months ago it was pretty pitiful.  Victor and 
his team took talkback to a new level though recently.  Seems like changes 
internal to google and personnel wise took place and the results are 
highly encouraging.  It’s not there yet but it’s a contender where back in 
your time frame it was most definitely not.



On Sep 16, 2016, at 7:44 AM, Donna Goodin  wrote:

Keep us all posted on this, Scott.  I will be very interested to hear 
about your experience.  I tried an Android phone--several of them, 
actually--back in 2010, and found it to be utterly inferior to the iPhone 
experience in just about every way.  I assume Android accessibility has 
made some strides since then, but my earlier experience was bad enough 
that I'll let someone else do the comparison testing. :)

Cheers,
Donna

On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:31 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:

I sure am but the pure android experience not one rebaked by another 
vendor.  Google hasn’t released their devices yet.  I’d like to do a 
comparison so I’ll use the 7+ and when the Nexus replacements come out I’ll 
put down the 7+ and move the SIM to the new phone and compare.  This way 
it’s a full dedicated experience instead of trying to flip back and 
forth between devices and take my own advice to commit.:)



On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:15 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:

OK, Scott. But weren't you going to try a more recent android 
experience?

Mary


Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Scott Granados  
wrote:


Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
prostate exam from Captain Hook.




On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock 
 wrote:


Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, 
means nothing honestly.
Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the 
everyone business and the people who do like there products and 
services obviously pay more.

What is a Mac in most cases?
A PC…
A Personal Computer …
But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there 
changes will continue paying for them.
I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is 
doing there updates, and just had to say, so what…
Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make 
that phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.

#choices.
And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that 
i couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. 
He didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis 
released helped me a lot.

Thanks for reading my rant.
Best.


On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:

Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time 
adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is 
inevitable. If that is what you deem as force, well, the solution 
is, of course, jump ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle 
repeats itself.


Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
Applevis.


How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system 
but it sure outruns Windows.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
Are We Alone in the Universe?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com


On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
system, namely OS.
If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS. 
The
iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily 
adopted.

Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am 
going
to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative. 
This
mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to 
improve,

to make simpler, to add features.
My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No 
release
notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not 
helpful

or easily usable.
It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned 
on
that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those 
using the
iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS ne

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[E.T.]

   The voice (a sane one) of reason speaks.

From E.T.'s Keyboard...
  Are We Alone in the Universe?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 9/16/2016 8:09 AM, Tim Kilburn wrote:

Hi,

It's interesting to me how many proclaim that change to an interface or
interaction is counterproductive or backwards intuitive.  Each time
Apple, Microsoft ()sorry for swearing on list), or Google change
something that we are all used to doing, a loud and, often, obnoxious
noise is heard.  I recall a huge noise made when Apple changed the look
of iTunes, both by VO users on my various lists and by sighted users,
including my own family.  I also recall a huge noise that was made when
the look and feel of Word changed.  Most of us have got used to these
changes, embraced pretty well all of them and, in lots of cases, have
come to prefer these new ways of interaction.  Now, as a change has been
made once again, here comes the noise.

As a matter of interest, the designers at these corporations don't pull
these ideas out of their behind.  They are usually derived from users,
and the public wanting their devices to accomplish things and/or work
towards a new development or experience.  Some are stepping stones,
others are just new ways of dealing with things that we've become
accustomed to.  I get it, often these changes don't initially appear to
be helpful, useful or even desirable, and they usually take time to
become part of our experience, yet they do.

I fully expect that in a years time, and probably in two years time,
when the next batch of iOS, or MacOS, or whatever hybrid of them is in
the wind is released, we'll hear this same old tune again.  Music to my
ears, NOT.

I'll be quiet on this thread now.  Fell off my soap box.

Later...

Tim Kilburn
Fort McMurray, AB Canada

On Sep 15, 2016, at 19:23, Scott Granados mailto:sc...@qualityip.net>> wrote:

It’s also counter productive to stagnate.


On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:03 PM, Cheree Heppe mailto:che...@dogsc4me.com>> wrote:

It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
system, namely OS.
If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily
adopted.  Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am
going to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook
alternative.  This mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update
promised to improve, to make simpler, to add features.
My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No
release notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just
not helpful or easily usable.
It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using
the iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give
place to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the
other way round.
Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at
rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own
good.
I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk
losing something that could and did change the world for us.


Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now
looks much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.

When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled
the same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a
thread to activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this
view, single-finger vertical flick moves up and down through the
messages. Single-finger horrizontal flicks read through the specific
message. Double-tap on the delete button at the bottom of the screen
deletes all messages in the thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick
moves between threads, threads and individual messages which do not
belong to threads, and individual messages. In other words, the same
as single-finger horrizontal flick in the message list screen.

If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread
must be expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger
vertical flick to expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is
unpacked and all the messages in the thread are treated like
non-thread messages. Now that I have become used to this new system,
I really like it. It took me a few hours of frustration to become
used to this new system.

I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging the behaviours of apps
for iOS and Mac, that we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love
touch-screen and want my touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com 

Re: Youtube on the Mac

[E.T.]

Josh,
   Thanks. I will check this out as they offer a free trial. Looked at 
the site and it looks to be a no brainer.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
  Are We Alone in the Universe?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 9/16/2016 3:08 AM, Joshua Tubbs wrote:

I highly recommend Downie video downloader for this. Does all that in one app, 
including conversion.


On Sep 15, 2016, at 10:06 PM, E.T.  wrote:

  On occasion I will download a video on my Windows then send it to the Mac and 
covert it.

  Is there a similar process for this on the Mac?

From E.T.'s Keyboard...
 Are We Alone in the Universe?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

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<>

Re: A very important lesson that I have learnt today re Apple.

[Kliphton Miller]

Scott, how much is the apple watch series 2, and is it in stores now?
> On Sep 16, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> Kawal, they announced yesterday on US TV anyway that all the + models were 
> sold out in the preorder.  That’s amazing to me.  Even the apple stores had 
> the 6S+ last year when it came out.  It’s hard for me to believe the 7 is 
> this big of a hit.
> 
> I’ve already had one call from a friend offering me double for my phone.
> 
> My stock portfolio though is happy with Apple at 5 month highs.:)
> 
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 8:23 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu > > wrote:
>> 
>> Hello.
>> 
>> I went to the Apple store today expecting to come home with an I phone 7 
>> Plus 256 and an new Apple watch series 2.
>> 
>> I got to the store and there was a queue of people standing outside.  So the 
>> person who was helping me got me to a member of staff as I left my cane at 
>> home silly me.
>> 
>> I asked if I could buy the 7 Plus 256 and Apple watch.  He said there were 
>> no phones left but I could go inside and buy the watch.  Went in there and 
>> the watch that I wanted was not even in stock.  I had rang Apple recently to 
>> ask if I should reserve the phone and watch but I was told that I should 
>> walk in and just buy the products on the day.
>> 
>> So now I am home without the things that I wanted.  However the person in 
>> the Apple store was able to preorder everything for me in one order which I 
>> would have not been able to do on the Apple app.
>> 
>> Just can’t believe it that at 12 30 there was nothing left in any store.  No 
>> reservations could be made until six a.m. tomorrow and it was not guaranteed 
>> that there would be a phone there.  So all I can say wow.
>> 
>> Kawal.
>> I'm fundraising for RNIB.
>> 
>> Please help me make a difference by making a donation to my Virgin Money 
>> Giving page. 
>> 
>> To find out more about what I'm doing and why, please visit 
>> http://www.virginmoneygiving.com/team/RNIBiceland 
>>  where you can also 
>> sponsor me online.
>> 
>> 
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>> Visionaries list.
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Re: A very important lesson that I have learnt today re Apple.

[Scott Granados]

It’s in stores, I haven’t bought one yet though I focused entirely on getting 
the phone.

Will be headed to best buy for a case in a few minutes though, will check while 
I’m there.

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 11:44 AM, Kliphton Miller  wrote:
> 
> Scott, how much is the apple watch series 2, and is it in stores now?
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Scott Granados > > wrote:
>> 
>> Kawal, they announced yesterday on US TV anyway that all the + models were 
>> sold out in the preorder.  That’s amazing to me.  Even the apple stores had 
>> the 6S+ last year when it came out.  It’s hard for me to believe the 7 is 
>> this big of a hit.
>> 
>> I’ve already had one call from a friend offering me double for my phone.
>> 
>> My stock portfolio though is happy with Apple at 5 month highs.:)
>> 
>>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 8:23 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello.
>>> 
>>> I went to the Apple store today expecting to come home with an I phone 7 
>>> Plus 256 and an new Apple watch series 2.
>>> 
>>> I got to the store and there was a queue of people standing outside.  So 
>>> the person who was helping me got me to a member of staff as I left my cane 
>>> at home silly me.
>>> 
>>> I asked if I could buy the 7 Plus 256 and Apple watch.  He said there were 
>>> no phones left but I could go inside and buy the watch.  Went in there and 
>>> the watch that I wanted was not even in stock.  I had rang Apple recently 
>>> to ask if I should reserve the phone and watch but I was told that I should 
>>> walk in and just buy the products on the day.
>>> 
>>> So now I am home without the things that I wanted.  However the person in 
>>> the Apple store was able to preorder everything for me in one order which I 
>>> would have not been able to do on the Apple app.
>>> 
>>> Just can’t believe it that at 12 30 there was nothing left in any store.  
>>> No reservations could be made until six a.m. tomorrow and it was not 
>>> guaranteed that there would be a phone there.  So all I can say wow.
>>> 
>>> Kawal.
>>> I'm fundraising for RNIB.
>>> 
>>> Please help me make a difference by making a donation to my Virgin Money 
>>> Giving page. 
>>> 
>>> To find out more about what I'm doing and why, please visit 
>>> http://www.virginmoneygiving.com/team/RNIBiceland 
>>>  where you can also 
>>> sponsor me online.
>>> 
>>> 
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>>> Visionaries list.
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>>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
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>> 
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Re: A very important lesson that I have learnt today re Apple.

[Mary Otten]

Scott, will be curious about the case you get and why you selected it.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 8:55 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> It’s in stores, I haven’t bought one yet though I focused entirely on getting 
> the phone.
> 
> Will be headed to best buy for a case in a few minutes though, will check 
> while I’m there.
> 
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 11:44 AM, Kliphton Miller  wrote:
>> 
>> Scott, how much is the apple watch series 2, and is it in stores now?
>>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Kawal, they announced yesterday on US TV anyway that all the + models were 
>>> sold out in the preorder.  That’s amazing to me.  Even the apple stores had 
>>> the 6S+ last year when it came out.  It’s hard for me to believe the 7 is 
>>> this big of a hit.
>>> 
>>> I’ve already had one call from a friend offering me double for my phone.
>>> 
>>> My stock portfolio though is happy with Apple at 5 month highs.:)
>>> 
 On Sep 16, 2016, at 8:23 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu  wrote:
 
 Hello.
 
 I went to the Apple store today expecting to come home with an I phone 7 
 Plus 256 and an new Apple watch series 2.
 
 I got to the store and there was a queue of people standing outside.  So 
 the person who was helping me got me to a member of staff as I left my 
 cane at home silly me.
 
 I asked if I could buy the 7 Plus 256 and Apple watch.  He said there were 
 no phones left but I could go inside and buy the watch.  Went in there and 
 the watch that I wanted was not even in stock.  I had rang Apple recently 
 to ask if I should reserve the phone and watch but I was told that I 
 should walk in and just buy the products on the day.
 
 So now I am home without the things that I wanted.  However the person in 
 the Apple store was able to preorder everything for me in one order which 
 I would have not been able to do on the Apple app.
 
 Just can’t believe it that at 12 30 there was nothing left in any store.  
 No reservations could be made until six a.m. tomorrow and it was not 
 guaranteed that there would be a phone there.  So all I can say wow.
 
 Kawal.
 I'm fundraising for RNIB.
 
 Please help me make a difference by making a donation to my Virgin Money 
 Giving page. 
 
 To find out more about what I'm doing and why, please visit 
 http://www.virginmoneygiving.com/team/RNIBiceland where you can also 
 sponsor me online.
 
 
 -- 
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Re: Audio of my iPhone 7 Plus unboxing/familiarisation

[Scott Granados]

I was torn between silver which matches the platinum watch I have or gold which 
matches another watch I have. The only problem is when I made that decision I 
realized that I have only been wearing steel apple watches since they came out 
so it doesn’t matter any more.:)  I see why Rolex’s sales are down 30% this 
year and they had to buy back their inventory from a lot of distributors.  
Everyone is wearing Fit Bit or apple watches now.  The trendy and high end 
markets are no longer high end swiss watches made with rare elements, it’s high 
tech.  For people wondering if the Apple Watch was a success or if it’s a game 
changer, Ask Rolex, Patek, Tag or any of them how it’s going?  :)  I have one 
watch that lost $40,000 in value over the last year on the resale market.  I’m 
sure it will recover but isn’t it funny how quietly that happened.  Sort of 
like a certain phone started to catch on 9 years ago when Blackberry was king.

Apple has a way of creating these trends and shocking different markets.  I’m 
not sure how much is artificially created by limiting preproduction and 
creating a pent up demand or if they really do get swamped with orders but what 
ever, it works, stocks at a 10 month high now heading towards all time high.

Go Mr. Cook!



> On Sep 16, 2016, at 9:57 AM, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
> My shipping estimate from T mobile is anywhere from September 26 through 
> October 10. I would've been happy with space gray, but they got rid of it, so 
> I went for Matt black. Obviously, since I can't see, I don't care about 
> color. But sighted friends tell me that the matblack will show the fewest 
> fingerprints and dirt. Works for me.
> 
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:25 AM, Scott Granados  > wrote:
> 
>> Mary, you had to be one of the cool kids and get the black model.:)
>> 
>> I heard it’s back ordered until October, true?
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 10:54 PM, Mary Otten >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Oh good. Looking forward to it. Even though my phone is a few weeks away.
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 7:39 PM, Jonathan Mosen >> > wrote:
>>> 
 Hi everyone, following on from our wrap of last week's Apple event, this 
 week's episode of The Blind Side Podcast features a comprehensive 
 unboxing, setting up, and then exploration of the new iPhone 7 Plus.
 If you'd like to take a listen, subscribe to The Blind Side Podcast in any 
 good podcatcher, or you can hear it on Sound Cloud via this URL.
 https://soundcloud.com/theblindsidepodcast/episode6 
 
 Hope you find it interesting.
 Jonathan Mosen
 Mosen Consulting
 Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training
 http://Mosen.org 
 
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Re: A very important lesson that I have learnt today re Apple.

[Scott Granados]

Well, my choice is made for me a bit.  I would most like to have a life proof 
as I’m a big fan.  However, it looks like I will have to go with otter box 
because since otter box bought life proof they have delayed the life proof 
releases pushing the otter box native products at launch.  I don’t like the 
otter box, to bulky for my taste but there you go.  I’m still to old school and 
still feel like I need a case even though the phone is now water resistant and 
more shock resistant.  I resell or give away my phone every year so the swap 
doesn’t end up costing me much but the key is the phones are pristine in 
condition and look like they were just removed from their shipping cartons.

Maybe they will have something different at best buy, headed there in about a 
half hour when the unbox video is completed.  T-Mobile stalled a day on 
shipment so we’re wrapping that stuff up now and then heading out the door.


> On Sep 16, 2016, at 12:05 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
> Scott, will be curious about the case you get and why you selected it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Sep 16, 2016, at 8:55 AM, Scott Granados  > wrote:
> 
>> It’s in stores, I haven’t bought one yet though I focused entirely on 
>> getting the phone.
>> 
>> Will be headed to best buy for a case in a few minutes though, will check 
>> while I’m there.
>> 
>>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 11:44 AM, Kliphton Miller >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Scott, how much is the apple watch series 2, and is it in stores now?
 On Sep 16, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Scott Granados >>> > wrote:
 
 Kawal, they announced yesterday on US TV anyway that all the + models were 
 sold out in the preorder.  That’s amazing to me.  Even the apple stores 
 had the 6S+ last year when it came out.  It’s hard for me to believe the 7 
 is this big of a hit.
 
 I’ve already had one call from a friend offering me double for my phone.
 
 My stock portfolio though is happy with Apple at 5 month highs.:)
 
> On Sep 16, 2016, at 8:23 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu  > wrote:
> 
> Hello.
> 
> I went to the Apple store today expecting to come home with an I phone 7 
> Plus 256 and an new Apple watch series 2.
> 
> I got to the store and there was a queue of people standing outside.  So 
> the person who was helping me got me to a member of staff as I left my 
> cane at home silly me.
> 
> I asked if I could buy the 7 Plus 256 and Apple watch.  He said there 
> were no phones left but I could go inside and buy the watch.  Went in 
> there and the watch that I wanted was not even in stock.  I had rang 
> Apple recently to ask if I should reserve the phone and watch but I was 
> told that I should walk in and just buy the products on the day.
> 
> So now I am home without the things that I wanted.  However the person in 
> the Apple store was able to preorder everything for me in one order which 
> I would have not been able to do on the Apple app.
> 
> Just can’t believe it that at 12 30 there was nothing left in any store.  
> No reservations could be made until six a.m. tomorrow and it was not 
> guaranteed that there would be a phone there.  So all I can say wow.
> 
> Kawal.
> I'm fundraising for RNIB.
> 
> Please help me make a difference by making a donation to my Virgin Money 
> Giving page. 
> 
> To find out more about what I'm doing and why, please visit 
> http://www.virginmoneygiving.com/team/RNIBiceland 
>  where you can also 
> sponsor me online.
> 
> 
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Creating swarm venues in iOS

[ben J. Bloomgren]

Hello all,

For those of you who may be familiar with swarm, which used to be known as 
foursquare, you check in to various venues, such as the house, bar, courthouse 
or whatever. You get points for checking in, venues that you check in with 
friends, and other such items. But, they must have changed out how you create a 
venue. Does anyone know how to add a venue to foursquare? For example, back in 
the day, I added a venue for my aunts house in Texas. She was not a foursquare 
user, so she did not create a venue. At that time, I went into the website to 
do this. I could've sworn, however, that iOS had an ability to do that as well.

Ben

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Re: Audio of my iPhone 7 Plus unboxing/familiarisation

[Brian Fischler]

Hey Jonathan,

Have not gotten a chance to listen to your pod yet. MY iPhone 7 arrived this 
morning, and my main reason for upgrading was the stereo speakers, but I got to 
tell you at first listen they are barely louder than the 6s individual speaker. 
With VO I barely notice a difference in how much louder the 7 is, and with 
music it is a little louder but not what I had hoped for. You are still going 
to want to use your good bluetooth speakers. Curious what other people’s first 
thoughts are of the stereo speakers. Thanks,
> On Sep 16, 2016, at 12:10 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> I was torn between silver which matches the platinum watch I have or gold 
> which matches another watch I have. The only problem is when I made that 
> decision I realized that I have only been wearing steel apple watches since 
> they came out so it doesn’t matter any more.:)  I see why Rolex’s sales are 
> down 30% this year and they had to buy back their inventory from a lot of 
> distributors.  Everyone is wearing Fit Bit or apple watches now.  The trendy 
> and high end markets are no longer high end swiss watches made with rare 
> elements, it’s high tech.  For people wondering if the Apple Watch was a 
> success or if it’s a game changer, Ask Rolex, Patek, Tag or any of them how 
> it’s going?  :)  I have one watch that lost $40,000 in value over the last 
> year on the resale market.  I’m sure it will recover but isn’t it funny how 
> quietly that happened.  Sort of like a certain phone started to catch on 9 
> years ago when Blackberry was king.
> 
> Apple has a way of creating these trends and shocking different markets.  I’m 
> not sure how much is artificially created by limiting preproduction and 
> creating a pent up demand or if they really do get swamped with orders but 
> what ever, it works, stocks at a 10 month high now heading towards all time 
> high.
> 
> Go Mr. Cook!
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 9:57 AM, Mary Otten > > wrote:
>> 
>> My shipping estimate from T mobile is anywhere from September 26 through 
>> October 10. I would've been happy with space gray, but they got rid of it, 
>> so I went for Matt black. Obviously, since I can't see, I don't care about 
>> color. But sighted friends tell me that the matblack will show the fewest 
>> fingerprints and dirt. Works for me.
>> 
>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:25 AM, Scott Granados > > wrote:
>> 
>>> Mary, you had to be one of the cool kids and get the black model.:)
>>> 
>>> I heard it’s back ordered until October, true?
>>> 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 10:54 PM, Mary Otten >>> > wrote:
 
 Oh good. Looking forward to it. Even though my phone is a few weeks away.
 Mary
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 7:39 PM, Jonathan Mosen >>> > wrote:
 
> Hi everyone, following on from our wrap of last week's Apple event, this 
> week's episode of The Blind Side Podcast features a comprehensive 
> unboxing, setting up, and then exploration of the new iPhone 7 Plus.
> If you'd like to take a listen, subscribe to The Blind Side Podcast in 
> any good podcatcher, or you can hear it on Sound Cloud via this URL.
> https://soundcloud.com/theblindsidepodcast/episode6 
> 
> Hope you find it interesting.
> Jonathan Mosen
> Mosen Consulting
> Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training
> http://Mosen.org 
> 
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> Visionaries list.
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> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
> 
>  
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Re: Creating swarm venues in iOS

[Christopher-Mark Gilland]

Yeah, go to the checkin button and bring the list of places up it sees.  In 
there will be a search.  Go to search and put in what you want the venue 
called.  Then search.  You'll get no results obviously, but there should 
then also show an option to add that venue.  I've not done it in a while, 
but I know it can be done.

---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

i...@gillandmarketing.com
Phone: (704) 256-8010.
- Original Message - 
From: "ben J. Bloomgren" 

To: 
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 12:29 PM
Subject: Creating swarm venues in iOS


Hello all,

For those of you who may be familiar with swarm, which used to be known as 
foursquare, you check in to various venues, such as the house, bar, 
courthouse or whatever. You get points for checking in, venues that you 
check in with friends, and other such items. But, they must have changed out 
how you create a venue. Does anyone know how to add a venue to foursquare? 
For example, back in the day, I added a venue for my aunts house in Texas. 
She was not a foursquare user, so she did not create a venue. At that time, 
I went into the website to do this. I could've sworn, however, that iOS had 
an ability to do that as well.


Ben

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Search tab in iOS app store seems totally busted!

[Christopher-Mark Gilland]

So... When I go, in iOS10 to the app store, then to the search tab, I only some 
of the time now see my search box at the top of the screen.  If I do see it, I 
double tap.  The keyboard comes up, but if I then flick back up to the text 
box, it doesn't say is editting.  If I try using Siri to dictate, nothing gets 
inserted into the box.  If I manually type my query in, it'll then type in the 
box, but the search button isn't showing at the bottom of the keyboard.  in 
fact, as soon as I put my finger in the bottom right quadrant of the screen to 
tap search, the keyboard disappears entirely, and I land on the update tab 
instead.  I know I quote, need to just move my finger up a little bit.  Trust 
me, I am profoundly familiar with the app store, and how it works.  I'm doing 
this 100% correctly, I assure you beyond a doubt.

Plus, I have enough low vision to see what it's doing.  I'm definitely doing it 
correctly.

The one time I somehow managed to get the search to carry out, mind you I dono 
what the heck I did to do so, there were no results.  The key word I searched 
for, just to see if I could make anything come up, not that I was gonna 
download it was, Pokimon Go.  No results came up after doing the search.  
Further, when I clicked clear search after the search field, it wouldn't clear 
out what I typed.

I've rebooted the phone.  NO good.  I disconnected and reconnected to my wifi.  
No good.  I tried on cellular.  No good.  I even factory reset the phone.  NO 
good, and no, after doing so, I didn't restore from a backup.  I don't do that 
with major updates like this.  I just start over clean.

It wasn't doing this earlier this morning,  and what's weirded on the mac is, 
when I open ITunes, I can't even get to the store anymore with command+Shift+H 
in the update that just came out.  It bwonks at me, if I try.  I literally have 
to vo+Right arrow to the store radio button, then VO+Space on it.  Incredibly, 
incredibly! clunky!

Is anyone else seeing this stuff?

Chris.

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gps apps for mac os?

[deedra waters]

so i was debating getting a gps receiver to use with my macbook rather then 
purchasing something like an ipad or an android device. So i’m curious to know 
if there are any gps apps out there for the mac that work decently well and 
give decent feedback. I see it’s got a maps app but i’ve not played with that 
at all.
deedra waters
dee...@the-brannons.com




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Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Robin]

That's NOT Fair
You're comparin' Apples&Oranges

A fairer comparison would be:
TMobile havin' an Issue/Problem with 
AnAndroidDevice would TMobile Moved as Quick with 
ThisIssue&ThisProblem of Service, I presume So

JustSayin'

It's not AnApple iOS issue for iOSUsers with Other MobileCariers
It's simply confined to TMobile
JustSayin'
At 06:44 PM 9/15/2016, you wrote:
Cheree, you’re not going anywhere.  Even if 
you don’t like the change in mail.  If you 
think that’s tricky try using 
Android.  Android is a joke of an operating 
system in comparison.  If for example you want 
to use the web or expect stability, expect to 
get your security patched and updates and even 
expect  consistent experience then you’ll just hate android.


Here’s a practical example.  T-Mobile had a 
problem in IOS 10, it took them about 48 hours 
to push an update to all the phones and correct 
their problem.  If this was the google world the 
update would be pushed to phones based on each 
individual vendor’s timeline, which in the 
case of Samsung for example may have taken 
months.  Samsung has been as much as a year out 
of date in releasing updates of the OS.


Don’t even get me started on windows and that 
after thought of an screen reader situation.


I had such a bad experience with a Galaxy phone 
i actually took it to the firing range and put a 
308 round through the phone.  It rebooted one to 
many times during a phone interview to live.;)


On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:03 PM, Cheree Heppe 
<che...@dogsc4me.com> wrote:


It seems counterproductive to force an 
up-to-date, streamlined functionality, such as 
iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy system, namely OS.
If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of 
the iOS than the OS.  The iOS represents a 
gateway experience that the public has readily 
adopted.  Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
If this new mail modality represents Apple's 
future for iOS, I am going to be forced into 
seeking another phone and notebook 
alternative.  This mail issue mushroomed, 
full-blown, from an update promised to improve, 
to make simpler, to add features.
My experience has unfortunately invited an 
opposite opinion.  No release notes guided 
usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful or easily usable.
It feels as though there is a tug-of-war 
between some who learned on that clumsy, 
multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and 
those using the iOs.  It is my opinion that the 
older, less easy OS needs to give place to the 
more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other way round.

Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, 
like the old friends at rehab, insist on 
speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own good.
I recommend that all of us speak up in our own 
best interest or risk losing something that 
could and did change the world for us.



Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden 
<dchitten...@gmail.com> wrote:


Correct, the way messages are handled has 
changed. Visually, it now looks much more like 
mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.


When in the main message list, individual 
messages are still handled the same as in iOS 
9. Threads are different. If one double-taps 
on a thread to activate it, one goes into a 
browse thread view. In this view, 
single-finger vertical flick moves up and down 
through the messages. Single-finger 
horrizontal flicks read through the specific 
message. Double-tap on the delete button at 
the bottom of the screen deletes all messages 
in the thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick 
moves between threads, threads and individual 
messages which do not belong to threads, and 
individual messages. In other words, the same 
as single-finger horrizontal flick in the message list screen.


If one wishes to delete only some messages 
from a thread, the thread must be expanded. 
Whilst in the main message screen, 
single-finger vertical flick to expand thread 
and double-tap. Now, the thread is unpacked 
and all the messages in the thread are treated 
like non-thread messages. Now that I have 
become used to this new system, I really like 
it. It took me a few hours of frustration to become used to this new system.


I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging 
the behaviours of apps for iOS and Mac, that 
we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love 
touch-screen and want my touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.


David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

On 16/09/2016, at 10:09, Phil Halton 
<philh...@gmail.com> wrote:


message threading seems to have changed 
substantially in IOS10. I can no longer 3 
finger flick from message to message in a 
thread, instead I have to use the “pre a

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Robin]

Samsung
NuffSaid

Although it might NOT be OnPar with Accessibility 
as Apple for Some, but for Others it is


It depends ON YourLevel of TechSavy Skills to 
TroubleShoot problems&issues, which may arise

At 06:44 PM 9/15/2016, you wrote:
   You tell it to the universe. We are using a 
product that is mainstream and for the most 
part accessible. Please tell us what other 
company building mainstream products has better accessibility.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
  Are We Alone in the Universe?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 9/15/2016 6:39 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:

No.
Disregarding working, intuitive practice for fluffy, legacy emulation is
not progress.
Tell that to the galactic Oogy Buggy.
This is a marketing problem.  If it isn't what I like or can use, it's a
marketing issue.
Tell that to the Galactic Trader's Alliance.


Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 18:30, E.T. mailto:ancient.ali...@icloud.com>> wrote:


  Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time
adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable.
If that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course,
jump ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.

  Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called
Applevis.

  How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system
but it sure outruns Windows.

From E.T.'s Keyboard...
 Are We Alone in the Universe?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com 

On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:

It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
system, namely OS.
If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.
Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
to make simpler, to add features.
My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release
notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful
or easily usable.
It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the
iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place
to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other
way round.
Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at
rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our
own good.
I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk
losing something that could and did change the world for us.


Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com>
> wrote:


Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now
looks much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.

When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled
the same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a
thread to activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this
view, single-finger vertical flick moves up and down through the
messages. Single-finger horrizontal flicks read through the specific
message. Double-tap on the delete button at the bottom of the screen
deletes all messages in the thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick
moves between threads, threads and individual messages which do not
belong to threads, and individual messages. In other words, the same
as single-finger horrizontal flick in the message list screen.

If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread
must be expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger
vertical flick to expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is
unpacked and all the messages in the thread are treated like
non-thread messages. Now that I have become used to this new system, I
really like it. It took me a few hours of frustration to become used
to this new system.

I am hoping that, as Apple continues merging the behaviours of apps
for iOS and Mac, that we will see a full Mac-based iPad. I love
touch-screen and want my touch-screen Mac, or the equivalent.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com 

Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

On 16/09/2016, at 10:09, Phil Halton mailto:philh...@gmail.com>
> wrote:


message threading seems to have changed substantially in IOS10. I can
no longer 3 finger flick from message to message in a thread, instead
I have to use the “pre and next† message buttons. Also

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Robin]

I suggest you SendFeedBack 
ConstructiveFeedBack&ConstructiveCriticism 
concernin' YourIssues&YourPorblems AsItPertainsTo Apple's iOS10

At 06:47 PM 9/15/2016, you wrote:

That's nonsense.
I pay exactly the same amount for my Apple products as anyone else.
Apple claims universal design.
When design changes or functional alterations 
lose the way, that isn't about somebody pays 
more, that's about somebody misunderstanding universal design.
Luckily, not all sighted people think as you and 
some others have quoted, or the disabled and 
blind would still be sitting by coal scuttles 
and weaving baskets to the tune of you are a minority and don't count.
Drop the doctored rehab drivel and embrace 
universal design, not change for its own sake.



Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 18:40, michael babcock 
<michael.babcoc...@gmail.com> wrote:



Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
All this talking about leaving because you 
don’t like there updates, means nothing honestly.
Apple is doing there marketing the right way; 
they aren’t in the everyone business and the 
people who do like there products and services obviously pay more.

What is a Mac in most cases?
A PC…
A Personal Computer …
But apple markkets a Mac as a Mac and the 
people who want there changes will continue paying for them.
I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t 
like the way apple is doing there updates, and just had to say, so what…
Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side 
note do they still make that phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.

#choices.
And regarding the new mail problem, yes i 
complained to a friend that i couldn’t use 
preview in my mail and listen to part of the 
messages. He didn’t know how to get this 
working, however the podcast AppleVis released helped me a lot.

Thanks for reading my rant.
Best.

On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T. 
<ancient.ali...@icloud.com> wrote:


 Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some 
who have a hard time adapting to change. But, 
at the end of each day, change is inevitable. 
If that is what you deem as force, well, the 
solution is, of course, jump ship. But, 
inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.


 Release notes of sorts can be found at the 
wonderful resource called Applevis.


 How long have you been using OS X? I am 
still learning this system but it sure outruns Windows.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
Are We Alone in the Universe?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:

It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
system, namely OS.
If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.
Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
to make simpler, to add features.
My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release
notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful
or easily usable.
It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the
iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place
to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other
way round.
Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at
rehab, insist on speaking for us, the 
user/consumer blind, for our own good.

I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk
losing something that could and did change the world for us.


Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden 
<dchitten...@gmail.com

> wrote:


Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now
looks much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.

When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled
the same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a
thread to activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this
view, single-finger vertical flick moves up and down through the
messages. Single-finger horrizontal flicks read through the specific
message. Double-tap on the delete button at the bottom of the screen
deletes all messages in the thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick
moves between threads, threads and individual messages which do not
belong to threads, and individual messages. In other words, the same
as single-finger horrizontal flic

Re: Search tab in iOS app store seems totally busted!

[E.T.]

   What search tab? Just find the search field where its always been 
located.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
  Are We Alone in the Universe?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 9/16/2016 11:41 AM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:

So... When I go, in iOS10 to the app store, then to the search tab, I
only some of the time now see my search box at the top of the screen.
If I do see it, I double tap.  The keyboard comes up, but if I then
flick back up to the text box, it doesn't say is editting.  If I try
using Siri to dictate, nothing gets inserted into the box.  If I
manually type my query in, it'll then type in the box, but the search
button isn't showing at the bottom of the keyboard.  in fact, as soon as
I put my finger in the bottom right quadrant of the screen to tap
search, the keyboard disappears entirely, and I land on the update tab
instead.  I know I quote, need to just move my finger up a little bit.
Trust me, I am profoundly familiar with the app store, and how it
works.  I'm doing this 100% correctly, I assure you beyond a doubt.

Plus, I have enough low vision to see what it's doing.  I'm definitely
doing it correctly.

The one time I somehow managed to get the search to carry out, mind you
I dono what the heck I did to do so, there were no results.  The key
word I searched for, just to see if I could make anything come up, not
that I was gonna download it was, Pokimon Go.  No results came up after
doing the search.  Further, when I clicked clear search after the search
field, it wouldn't clear out what I typed.

I've rebooted the phone.  NO good.  I disconnected and reconnected to my
wifi.  No good.  I tried on cellular.  No good.  I even factory reset
the phone.  NO good, and no, after doing so, I didn't restore from a
backup.  I don't do that with major updates like this.  I just start
over clean.

It wasn't doing this earlier this morning,  and what's weirded on the
mac is, when I open ITunes, I can't even get to the store anymore with
command+Shift+H in the update that just came out.  It bwonks at me, if I
try.  I literally have to vo+Right arrow to the store radio button, then
VO+Space on it.  Incredibly, incredibly! clunky!

Is anyone else seeing this stuff?

Chris.

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<>

Here's another weird one for ya.

[Christopher-Mark Gilland]

Have any of you noticed on iOS10, when making an outbound call, as soon as the 
call is sent, sometimes, in fact fairly often, Voiceover will say: incoming 
call?

It's the weirdest thing!

Chris.

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feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
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Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[E.T.]

Robin,
   Is your space bar worn out? The lack of spaces between words makes 
for difficult reading.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
  Are We Alone in the Universe?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 9/16/2016 11:48 AM, Robin wrote:

I suggest you SendFeedBack ConstructiveFeedBack&ConstructiveCriticism
concernin' YourIssues&YourPorblems AsItPertainsTo Apple's iOS10
At 06:47 PM 9/15/2016, you wrote:

That's nonsense.
I pay exactly the same amount for my Apple products as anyone else.
Apple claims universal design.
When design changes or functional alterations lose the way, that isn't
about somebody pays more, that's about somebody misunderstanding
universal design.
Luckily, not all sighted people think as you and some others have
quoted, or the disabled and blind would still be sitting by coal
scuttles and weaving baskets to the tune of you are a minority and
don't count.
Drop the doctored rehab drivel and embrace universal design, not
change for its own sake.


Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 18:40, michael babcock
mailto:michael.babcoc...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there
updates, means nothing honestly.
Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the
everyone business and the people who do like there products and
services obviously pay more.
What is a Mac in most cases?
A PC…
A Personal Computer …
But apple markkets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there
changes will continue paying for them.
I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is
doing there updates, and just had to say, so what…
Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make
that phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.
#choices.
And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that
i couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the
messages. He didn’t know how to get this working, however the
podcast AppleVis released helped me a lot.
Thanks for reading my rant.
Best.


On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T. mailto:ancient.ali...@icloud.com>> wrote:

 Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time
adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is
inevitable. If that is what you deem as force, well, the solution
is, of course, jump ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle
repeats itself.

 Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource
called Applevis.

 How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system
but it sure outruns Windows.

From E.T.'s Keyboard...
Are We Alone in the Universe?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com 

On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:

It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
system, namely OS.
If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily
adopted.
Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
to make simpler, to add features.
My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No
release
notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful
or easily usable.
It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those
using the
iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place
to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other
way round.
Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of
improvements.
There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at
rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our
own good.
I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk
losing something that could and did change the world for us.


Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden mailto:dchitten...@gmail.com>
> wrote:


Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now
looks much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.

When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled
the same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a
thread to activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this
view, single-finger vertical flick moves up and down through the
messages. Single-finger horrizontal flicks read through the specific
message. Double-tap on the delete button at the bottom of the screen
deletes all messages in the thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick
moves between threads, threads and individual messages which do 

Re: Here's another weird one for ya.

[Ray Foret jr]

Sure, I noticed that.  Thought it was weird as it did not do that during the 
beta cycle.


Sent from my Mac, The only computer with full accessibility for the blind 
built-in

Sincerely, The Constantly Barefooted Ray
Still a very happy Mac, Verizon Wireless iPhone6+ and Apple TV user!

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 1:54 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland  
> wrote:
> 
> Have any of you noticed on iOS10, when making an outbound call, as soon as 
> the call is sent, sometimes, in fact fairly often, Voiceover will say: 
> incoming call?
>  
> It's the weirdest thing!
>  
> Chris.
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
>  
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>  
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara 
> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
> 
>  
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
> 
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
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Re: in public defense of those who beta test Apple software

[christopher hallsworth]

Can I speak up here as well?

I beta tested iOS 10 right from the very beginning, developer beta 1. How it 
was, Apple Developer Relations contacted me over a bug report I sent two years 
ago. Yes, two years ago. It was in relation to Braille Screen Input and 
contracted Braille. I reported then that there was absolutely no typing 
feedback when switching to contracted Braille input. After assuring me that 
they were looking for ideas, they finally told me that character feedback was 
turned off in all cases, and it was released like that. I was disappointed, but 
thought “hey, at least I tried”. So you can imagine the shock I felt when 
receiving that. So thought “hey, let’s check this out and see what I think?” 
And wow, it was amazing to see they finally added typing feedback to contracted 
Braille input. Since I was generally happy with the implementation, I simply 
replied to the report and resolving the bug report. Future betas of iOS 10 I 
saw small, but significant, changes, which were for the better. I’m not going 
to say the changes here, since even the public beta testers never saw them. 
They got changed probably in developer beta 2 at least.

So please, give us credit where it’s due of course, and don’t blame it all on 
Apple. Thank you.


> On 16 Sep 2016, at 03:15, Ray Foret jr  wrote:
> 
> I may have only tested the public betas, but, I’m totally going to stand for 
> Chris and the other Devs here who were always one step ahead of me.  IF not 
> for their pioneering work on all this. what we have now might:  and indeed 
> would be, much much more seriously flawed.  I think we who tested the public 
> betas have something to say to this also, for you see, I was one of them and 
> continue to be.  Now, I want to say something else that I feel is in 
> connection with all this.  Some say we who test the public betas can in fact 
> discuss what we find in public before the final release.  You could not be 
> more in error!!!  Obviously, you don’t know what you are  talking about.  
> Have you bothered to read the terms of agreement that all beta testers, (dev 
> and public alike) must agree to?  No?  Well, permit me to summarize them for 
> you.  We cannot say a thing about what we are finding.  We’re strictly 
> forbidden to show you non testers in any way what it is we are working on.  
> If you think you have so much to say, you either pay the developer fee or 
> test the public beta.  Until then, shut up!  I’m coming out here in such 
> strong defense of dev and public beta testers because I have gone through 
> just about an entire summer of putting up with idiotic fools whoo have NO 
> respect for non disclosure agreements and the seriousness with which such 
> things MUST be taken.  True, not everyone on this list is like that:  in 
> fact, I suspect that most on this particular list understand my point of view 
> on this matter.  But on VORail, (yes I am being specific about the place 
> where most of this stupidity lives) it seemed to reign supreme.  I’m sure I 
> speak for Chris and the other devs and for the other public beta testers here 
> when I say that when we say we cannot discuss something, you’d damn well 
> better take us seriously because we damn well take Apple’s non disclosure 
> agreements very very seriously.  If stupid sighted people on podcasts can’t 
> be bother to take such things seriously and go  blabbing about what they 
> find, that’s their problem.  Also, frankly, it’s not much help to us if Apple 
> doesn’t enforce their own non disclosure agreements.  Well, let the rest blab 
> if they want to:  I, for my part, will NOT.  
> Sent from my Mac, The only computer with full accessibility for the blind 
> built-in
> 
> Sincerely, The Constantly Barefooted Ray
> Still a very happy Mac, Verizon Wireless iPhone6+ and Apple TV user!
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 8:26 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Excuse me, Cheree.  that was profoundly disrespectful, not to mention 
>> downright insulting to us devs, me being one of them.  Let me tell you 
>> something.  We devs did! try getting on Apple about stuff like this.  I did 
>> so in iOS 9, and I even more so did in this iOS 10 update beta cycle.  Trust 
>> me.  I was on the 10 beta from June 30th, when it was announced at WWDC 
>> until now.  I've ever since had at least one of my devices on 10.
>>  
>> I've reported bug after bug after bug to them.  I've worked countless hours 
>> to the sweat of my brow! trying to explain these things to them, but no 
>> sollution was ever made.  So don't be putting the blame on us devs, OK?  
>> We've done our damdest! to make this new version of OSX, TVOS, Watch OS, and 
>> iOS as  wonderful as possible.  The thing is, once we make the bug reports 
>> through the bugreporter bug tracker, we really don't then have much of a say 
>> past that point.  If Apple fixes it, great, if not, well, we've done our 
>> parts by reporting it.
>>  
>> Now, if us devs just saw the

Re: Here's another weird one for ya.

[michael babcock]

I’ve been on public beta and noticed this with the version just before this one 
that is out.
> On Sep 16, 2016, at 12:31 PM, Ray Foret jr  wrote:
> 
> Sure, I noticed that.  Thought it was weird as it did not do that during the 
> beta cycle.
> 
> 
> Sent from my Mac, The only computer with full accessibility for the blind 
> built-in
> 
> Sincerely, The Constantly Barefooted Ray
> Still a very happy Mac, Verizon Wireless iPhone6+ and Apple TV user!
> 
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 1:54 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland > > wrote:
>> 
>> Have any of you noticed on iOS10, when making an outbound call, as soon as 
>> the call is sent, sometimes, in fact fairly often, Voiceover will say: 
>> incoming call?
>>  
>> It's the weirdest thing!
>>  
>> Chris.
>> 
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Re: Audio of my iPhone 7 Plus unboxing/familiarisation

[Jonathan Mosen]

Hi Brian, positioned correctly, you can definitely hear the stereo separation, 
and with the 7 Plus the speakers are a little wider apart which may help. The 
audio is definitely better, and I think will help when listening to podcasts 
etc, but sure, you'd want something far better for serious music listening.
Jonathan Mosen
Mosen Consulting
Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training
http://Mosen.org

> On 17/09/2016, at 4:46 AM, Brian Fischler  wrote:
> 
> Hey Jonathan,
> 
> Have not gotten a chance to listen to your pod yet. MY iPhone 7 arrived this 
> morning, and my main reason for upgrading was the stereo speakers, but I got 
> to tell you at first listen they are barely louder than the 6s individual 
> speaker. With VO I barely notice a difference in how much louder the 7 is, 
> and with music it is a little louder but not what I had hoped for. You are 
> still going to want to use your good bluetooth speakers. Curious what other 
> people’s first thoughts are of the stereo speakers. Thanks,
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 12:10 PM, Scott Granados > > wrote:
>> 
>> I was torn between silver which matches the platinum watch I have or gold 
>> which matches another watch I have. The only problem is when I made that 
>> decision I realized that I have only been wearing steel apple watches since 
>> they came out so it doesn’t matter any more.:)  I see why Rolex’s sales are 
>> down 30% this year and they had to buy back their inventory from a lot of 
>> distributors.  Everyone is wearing Fit Bit or apple watches now.  The trendy 
>> and high end markets are no longer high end swiss watches made with rare 
>> elements, it’s high tech.  For people wondering if the Apple Watch was a 
>> success or if it’s a game changer, Ask Rolex, Patek, Tag or any of them how 
>> it’s going?  :)  I have one watch that lost $40,000 in value over the last 
>> year on the resale market.  I’m sure it will recover but isn’t it funny how 
>> quietly that happened.  Sort of like a certain phone started to catch on 9 
>> years ago when Blackberry was king.
>> 
>> Apple has a way of creating these trends and shocking different markets.  
>> I’m not sure how much is artificially created by limiting preproduction and 
>> creating a pent up demand or if they really do get swamped with orders but 
>> what ever, it works, stocks at a 10 month high now heading towards all time 
>> high.
>> 
>> Go Mr. Cook!
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 9:57 AM, Mary Otten >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> My shipping estimate from T mobile is anywhere from September 26 through 
>>> October 10. I would've been happy with space gray, but they got rid of it, 
>>> so I went for Matt black. Obviously, since I can't see, I don't care about 
>>> color. But sighted friends tell me that the matblack will show the fewest 
>>> fingerprints and dirt. Works for me.
>>> 
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:25 AM, Scott Granados >> > wrote:
>>> 
 Mary, you had to be one of the cool kids and get the black model.:)
 
 I heard it’s back ordered until October, true?
 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 10:54 PM, Mary Otten  > wrote:
> 
> Oh good. Looking forward to it. Even though my phone is a few weeks away.
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 7:39 PM, Jonathan Mosen  > wrote:
> 
>> Hi everyone, following on from our wrap of last week's Apple event, this 
>> week's episode of The Blind Side Podcast features a comprehensive 
>> unboxing, setting up, and then exploration of the new iPhone 7 Plus.
>> If you'd like to take a listen, subscribe to The Blind Side Podcast in 
>> any good podcatcher, or you can hear it on Sound Cloud via this URL.
>> https://soundcloud.com/theblindsidepodcast/episode6 
>> 
>> Hope you find it interesting.
>> Jonathan Mosen
>> Mosen Consulting
>> Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training
>> http://Mosen.org 
>> 
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Re: Here's another weird one for ya.

[Christopher-Mark Gilland]

My point exactly.
---
Christopher Gilland
JAWS Certified, 2016.
Training Instructor.

i...@gillandmarketing.com
Phone: (704) 256-8010.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Ray Foret jr 
  To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 3:31 PM
  Subject: Re: Here's another weird one for ya.


  Sure, I noticed that.  Thought it was weird as it did not do that during the 
beta cycle.




  Sent from my Mac, The only computer with full accessibility for the blind 
built-in

  Sincerely, The Constantly Barefooted Ray
  Still a very happy Mac, Verizon Wireless iPhone6+ and Apple TV user! 


On Sep 16, 2016, at 1:54 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland 
 wrote:


Have any of you noticed on iOS10, when making an outbound call, as soon as 
the call is sent, sometimes, in fact fairly often, Voiceover will say: incoming 
call?

It's the weirdest thing!

Chris.


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RE: Youtube on the Mac

[BBS]

Hi. There's also Youview. It's very accessible and you don't have to pay to 
convert videos.


Shawn
Sent From My White MacBook Via Bootcamp and Windows 10
Twitter Handle: shawnk_aka_bbs
Facebook Username: Shawn Krasniuk
Skype Username: bbstheblindrapper
Facetime Username: bbssh...@icloud.com

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of E.T.
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 10:19 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Youtube on the Mac

Josh,
Thanks. I will check this out as they offer a free trial. Looked at the 
site and it looks to be a no brainer.

 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   Are We Alone in the Universe?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 9/16/2016 3:08 AM, Joshua Tubbs wrote:
> I highly recommend Downie video downloader for this. Does all that in one 
> app, including conversion.
>
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 10:06 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>>
>>   On occasion I will download a video on my Windows then send it to the Mac 
>> and covert it.
>>
>>   Is there a similar process for this on the Mac?
>>
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>  Are We Alone in the Universe?
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>
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Re: in public defense of those who beta test Apple software

[Phil Halton]

I'm the one who originally complained about the changes in mail app but now 
that I've had a chance to work with it, and have found the messages router 
feature as well as the ability to unpack the thread, I really like the what 
they've done with it.

Sent from my IPhone


> On Sep 16, 2016, at 3:34 PM, christopher hallsworth  
> wrote:
> 
> Can I speak up here as well?
> 
> I beta tested iOS 10 right from the very beginning, developer beta 1. How it 
> was, Apple Developer Relations contacted me over a bug report I sent two 
> years ago. Yes, two years ago. It was in relation to Braille Screen Input and 
> contracted Braille. I reported then that there was absolutely no typing 
> feedback when switching to contracted Braille input. After assuring me that 
> they were looking for ideas, they finally told me that character feedback was 
> turned off in all cases, and it was released like that. I was disappointed, 
> but thought “hey, at least I tried”. So you can imagine the shock I felt when 
> receiving that. So thought “hey, let’s check this out and see what I think?” 
> And wow, it was amazing to see they finally added typing feedback to 
> contracted Braille input. Since I was generally happy with the 
> implementation, I simply replied to the report and resolving the bug report. 
> Future betas of iOS 10 I saw small, but significant, changes, which were for 
> the better. I’m not going to say the changes here, since even the public beta 
> testers never saw them. They got changed probably in developer beta 2 at 
> least.
> 
> So please, give us credit where it’s due of course, and don’t blame it all on 
> Apple. Thank you.
> 
> 
>> On 16 Sep 2016, at 03:15, Ray Foret jr  wrote:
>> 
>> I may have only tested the public betas, but, I’m totally going to stand for 
>> Chris and the other Devs here who were always one step ahead of me.  IF not 
>> for their pioneering work on all this. what we have now might:  and indeed 
>> would be, much much more seriously flawed.  I think we who tested the public 
>> betas have something to say to this also, for you see, I was one of them and 
>> continue to be.  Now, I want to say something else that I feel is in 
>> connection with all this.  Some say we who test the public betas can in fact 
>> discuss what we find in public before the final release.  You could not be 
>> more in error!!!  Obviously, you don’t know what you are  talking about.  
>> Have you bothered to read the terms of agreement that all beta testers, (dev 
>> and public alike) must agree to?  No?  Well, permit me to summarize them for 
>> you.  We cannot say a thing about what we are finding.  We’re strictly 
>> forbidden to show you non testers in any way what it is we are working on.  
>> If you think you have so much to say, you either pay the developer fee or 
>> test the public beta.  Until then, shut up!  I’m coming out here in such 
>> strong defense of dev and public beta testers because I have gone through 
>> just about an entire summer of putting up with idiotic fools whoo have NO 
>> respect for non disclosure agreements and the seriousness with which such 
>> things MUST be taken.  True, not everyone on this list is like that:  in 
>> fact, I suspect that most on this particular list understand my point of 
>> view on this matter.  But on VORail, (yes I am being specific about the 
>> place where most of this stupidity lives) it seemed to reign supreme.  I’m 
>> sure I speak for Chris and the other devs and for the other public beta 
>> testers here when I say that when we say we cannot discuss something, you’d 
>> damn well better take us seriously because we damn well take Apple’s non 
>> disclosure agreements very very seriously.  If stupid sighted people on 
>> podcasts can’t be bother to take such things seriously and go  blabbing 
>> about what they find, that’s their problem.  Also, frankly, it’s not much 
>> help to us if Apple doesn’t enforce their own non disclosure agreements.  
>> Well, let the rest blab if they want to:  I, for my part, will NOT.  
>> Sent from my Mac, The only computer with full accessibility for the blind 
>> built-in
>> 
>> Sincerely, The Constantly Barefooted Ray
>> Still a very happy Mac, Verizon Wireless iPhone6+ and Apple TV user!
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 8:26 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Excuse me, Cheree.  that was profoundly disrespectful, not to mention 
>>> downright insulting to us devs, me being one of them.  Let me tell you 
>>> something.  We devs did! try getting on Apple about stuff like this.  I did 
>>> so in iOS 9, and I even more so did in this iOS 10 update beta cycle.  
>>> Trust me.  I was on the 10 beta from June 30th, when it was announced at 
>>> WWDC until now.  I've ever since had at least one of my devices on 10.
>>> 
>>> I've reported bug after bug after bug to them.  I've worked countless hours 
>>> to the sweat of my brow! trying to explain these things to them, but no 
>>> sollution was 

Is OK Cupid accessible

[Antonio Guimaraes]

Hi all,

I’m trying to create a new profile on OkCupid.com with VoiceOver on a Mac. I am 
not able to change the state of combo boxes. The first would allow me to be 
listed as a man seeking a woman.

I find no way to change the state of something read as gender_dropdown combo 
box.

Thanks for your feedback,

Antonio


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Re: Search tab in iOS app store seems totally busted!

[Brian Fischler]

I to am having an issue with the App Store and search on my new 7 and IOS 10, 
not sure if it is device specific but when I dictate nothing enters in the 
search box and if I type in what I am looking for VO does not read the results 
just skips over them to the tabs at the bottom. Looking like a pretty serious 
issue.
> On Sep 16, 2016, at 2:49 PM, E.T.  wrote:
> 
>   What search tab? Just find the search field where its always been located.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>  Are We Alone in the Universe?
> ancient.ali...@icloud.com 
> 
> On 9/16/2016 11:41 AM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:
>> So... When I go, in iOS10 to the app store, then to the search tab, I
>> only some of the time now see my search box at the top of the screen.
>> If I do see it, I double tap.  The keyboard comes up, but if I then
>> flick back up to the text box, it doesn't say is editting.  If I try
>> using Siri to dictate, nothing gets inserted into the box.  If I
>> manually type my query in, it'll then type in the box, but the search
>> button isn't showing at the bottom of the keyboard.  in fact, as soon as
>> I put my finger in the bottom right quadrant of the screen to tap
>> search, the keyboard disappears entirely, and I land on the update tab
>> instead.  I know I quote, need to just move my finger up a little bit.
>> Trust me, I am profoundly familiar with the app store, and how it
>> works.  I'm doing this 100% correctly, I assure you beyond a doubt.
>> 
>> Plus, I have enough low vision to see what it's doing.  I'm definitely
>> doing it correctly.
>> 
>> The one time I somehow managed to get the search to carry out, mind you
>> I dono what the heck I did to do so, there were no results. The key
>> word I searched for, just to see if I could make anything come up, not
>> that I was gonna download it was, Pokimon Go.  No results came up after
>> doing the search.  Further, when I clicked clear search after the search
>> field, it wouldn't clear out what I typed.
>> 
>> I've rebooted the phone.  NO good.  I disconnected and reconnected to my
>> wifi.  No good.  I tried on cellular.  No good.  I even factory reset
>> the phone.  NO good, and no, after doing so, I didn't restore from a
>> backup.  I don't do that with major updates like this.  I just start
>> over clean.
>> 
>> It wasn't doing this earlier this morning,  and what's weirded on the
>> mac is, when I open ITunes, I can't even get to the store anymore with
>> command+Shift+H in the update that just came out.  It bwonks at me, if I
>> try.  I literally have to vo+Right arrow to the store radio button, then
>> VO+Space on it.  Incredibly, incredibly! clunky!
>> 
>> Is anyone else seeing this stuff?
>> 
>> Chris.
>> 
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Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[David Chittenden]

I also came from Code Factory's Mobile Pocket PC. Save for the onscreen 
keyboard, that package turned the touch-screen into four buttons. I definitely 
prefer the modern way of doing touch-screens for the blind.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 16/09/2016, at 23:44, Donna Goodin  wrote:
> 
> Keep us all posted on this, Scott.  I will be very interested to hear about 
> your experience.  I tried an Android phone--several of them, actually--back 
> in 2010, and found it to be utterly inferior to the iPhone experience in just 
> about every way.  I assume Android accessibility has made some strides since 
> then, but my earlier experience was bad enough that I'll let someone else do 
> the comparison testing. :)
> Cheers,
> Donna
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:31 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>> 
>> I sure am but the pure android experience not one rebaked by another vendor. 
>>  Google hasn’t released their devices yet.  I’d like to do a comparison so 
>> I’ll use the 7+ and when the Nexus replacements come out I’ll put down the 
>> 7+ and move the SIM to the new phone and compare.  This way it’s a full 
>> dedicated experience instead of trying to flip back and forth between 
>> devices and take my own advice to commit.:)
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:15 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>>> 
>>> OK, Scott. But weren't you going to try a more recent android experience?
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
 
 Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
 prostate exam from Captain Hook.
 
 
 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock 
>  wrote:
> 
> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, 
> means nothing honestly.
> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
> pay more.
> What is a Mac in most cases?
> A PC…
> A Personal Computer … 
> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes 
> will continue paying for them.
> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing 
> there updates, and just had to say, so what…
> Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make 
> that phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.
> #choices.
> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis 
> released helped me a lot.
> Thanks for reading my rant.
> Best.
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>> 
>> Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time 
>> adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. 
>> If that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, 
>> jump ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
>> 
>> Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
>> Applevis.
>> 
>> How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but 
>> it sure outruns Windows.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>> Are We Alone in the Universe?
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> 
>>> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
>>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
>>> system, namely OS.
>>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
>>> iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.
>>> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
>>> to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
>>> mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
>>> to make simpler, to add features.
>>> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release
>>> notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful
>>> or easily usable.
>>> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
>>> that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the
>>> iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place
>>> to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other
>>> way round.
>>> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
>>> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the

Re: Youtube on the Mac

[Portia Scott]

The only issue with YouView, is if you try to switch pages, it crashes.

Oh, and  it doesn’t seem to be updated anymore.

Portia.
> On Sep 16, 2016, at 1:12 PM, BBS  wrote:
> 
> Hi. There's also Youview. It's very accessible and you don't have to pay to 
> convert videos.
> 
> 
> Shawn
> Sent From My White MacBook Via Bootcamp and Windows 10
> Twitter Handle: shawnk_aka_bbs
> Facebook Username: Shawn Krasniuk
> Skype Username: bbstheblindrapper
> Facetime Username: bbssh...@icloud.com
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of E.T.
> Sent: Friday, September 16, 2016 10:19 AM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Youtube on the Mac
> 
> Josh,
>Thanks. I will check this out as they offer a free trial. Looked at the 
> site and it looks to be a no brainer.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>   Are We Alone in the Universe?
> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> 
> On 9/16/2016 3:08 AM, Joshua Tubbs wrote:
>> I highly recommend Downie video downloader for this. Does all that in one 
>> app, including conversion.
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 10:06 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>>> 
>>>  On occasion I will download a video on my Windows then send it to the Mac 
>>> and covert it.
>>> 
>>>  Is there a similar process for this on the Mac?
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>> Are We Alone in the Universe?
>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>> 
>>> --
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>>> 
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>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
>>> or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>> 
>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is 
>>> Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>> 
>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
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>> 
> 
> --
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> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara 
> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
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> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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- you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can b

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[David Chittenden]

I have an LG Nexus 9 (Google Android) tablet which runs stock Android. The 
right angle gestures are the current downfall of that system. I am very good at 
performing gestures. With the right-angle gestures, one must draw a straight 
horrizontal or vertical line, followed by a straight line which is a 
right-angle turn at the end of the first line. The complete gesture must be 
drawn within half a second, and must be quite precise. Sighted people do this 
without any difficulty. I am now able to do it successfully about 1/3 the time, 
after a couple months of practice. If Google did arcs rather than right angles, 
it would work without much difficulty, and I would use a stock Android as my 
second phone, rather than two iPhones.

Samsung rewrote the interface with Speech Assist and took out the angle 
gestures. They put in more multiple finger commands. However, their interface 
is not-at-all customisable, and it does not provide as many advanced features 
as voiceover. Oh, and they have a recent history of current devices lighting up 
people's lives.

Now, if any of the TALKBack crowd wish to give me useable strategies for 
performing angle commands, without vision, and it being precise more than 95% 
of the time, I will definitely listen, practice, and work more with Android. I 
believe in multiple accessible general market products, but the interface must 
be usable.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 16/09/2016, at 23:43, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> Simon, I like your humor buddy.;)
> 
> Well played sir.
> 
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 3:50 AM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
>> 
>> Scott,
>> 
>> Um, that type of prostate exam would probably be ok, because it's now done 
>> with a blood test, so captain hook would be able to help get the blood out!
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
>> Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 1:46 PM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
>> 
>> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
>> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
>>> nothing honestly.
>>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
>>> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
>>> pay more.
>>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>>> A PC…
>>> A Personal Computer …
>>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes will 
>>> continue paying for them.
>>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing 
>>> there updates, and just had to say, so what… Switch to android, back to a 
>>> Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that phone?), windows 10 touch 
>>> phone, etc.
>>> #choices.
>>> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
>>> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
>>> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released 
>>> helped me a lot.
>>> Thanks for reading my rant.
>>> Best.
>>> 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
 
 Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time adapting 
 to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If that is 
 what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump ship. But, 
 inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
 
 Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
 Applevis.
 
 How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it 
 sure outruns Windows.
 
 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
 Are We Alone in the Universe?
 ancient.ali...@icloud.com
 
> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy 
> system, namely OS.
> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  
> The iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily 
> adopted.
> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am 
> going to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook 
> alternative.  This mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update 
> promised to improve, to make simpler, to add features.
> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No 
> release notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just 
> not helpful or easily usable.
> It feels as though t

Re: Audio of my iPhone 7 Plus unboxing/familiarisation

[Brian Fischler]

Hey Jonathan,

Funny as I did not notice the difference in sound until I started listening to 
your podcast of the unboxing. I am sure the 7 plus sounds even better than the 
7.
> On Sep 16, 2016, at 3:48 PM, Jonathan Mosen  wrote:
> 
> Hi Brian, positioned correctly, you can definitely hear the stereo 
> separation, and with the 7 Plus the speakers are a little wider apart which 
> may help. The audio is definitely better, and I think will help when 
> listening to podcasts etc, but sure, you'd want something far better for 
> serious music listening.
> Jonathan Mosen
> Mosen Consulting
> Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training
> http://Mosen.org 
>> On 17/09/2016, at 4:46 AM, Brian Fischler > > wrote:
>> 
>> Hey Jonathan,
>> 
>> Have not gotten a chance to listen to your pod yet. MY iPhone 7 arrived this 
>> morning, and my main reason for upgrading was the stereo speakers, but I got 
>> to tell you at first listen they are barely louder than the 6s individual 
>> speaker. With VO I barely notice a difference in how much louder the 7 is, 
>> and with music it is a little louder but not what I had hoped for. You are 
>> still going to want to use your good bluetooth speakers. Curious what other 
>> people’s first thoughts are of the stereo speakers. Thanks,
>>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 12:10 PM, Scott Granados >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> I was torn between silver which matches the platinum watch I have or gold 
>>> which matches another watch I have. The only problem is when I made that 
>>> decision I realized that I have only been wearing steel apple watches since 
>>> they came out so it doesn’t matter any more.:)  I see why Rolex’s sales are 
>>> down 30% this year and they had to buy back their inventory from a lot of 
>>> distributors.  Everyone is wearing Fit Bit or apple watches now.  The 
>>> trendy and high end markets are no longer high end swiss watches made with 
>>> rare elements, it’s high tech.  For people wondering if the Apple Watch was 
>>> a success or if it’s a game changer, Ask Rolex, Patek, Tag or any of them 
>>> how it’s going?  :)  I have one watch that lost $40,000 in value over the 
>>> last year on the resale market.  I’m sure it will recover but isn’t it 
>>> funny how quietly that happened.  Sort of like a certain phone started to 
>>> catch on 9 years ago when Blackberry was king.
>>> 
>>> Apple has a way of creating these trends and shocking different markets.  
>>> I’m not sure how much is artificially created by limiting preproduction and 
>>> creating a pent up demand or if they really do get swamped with orders but 
>>> what ever, it works, stocks at a 10 month high now heading towards all time 
>>> high.
>>> 
>>> Go Mr. Cook!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Sep 16, 2016, at 9:57 AM, Mary Otten >>> > wrote:
 
 My shipping estimate from T mobile is anywhere from September 26 through 
 October 10. I would've been happy with space gray, but they got rid of it, 
 so I went for Matt black. Obviously, since I can't see, I don't care about 
 color. But sighted friends tell me that the matblack will show the fewest 
 fingerprints and dirt. Works for me.
 
 Mary
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:25 AM, Scott Granados >>> > wrote:
 
> Mary, you had to be one of the cool kids and get the black model.:)
> 
> I heard it’s back ordered until October, true?
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 10:54 PM, Mary Otten > > wrote:
>> 
>> Oh good. Looking forward to it. Even though my phone is a few weeks away.
>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 7:39 PM, Jonathan Mosen > > wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi everyone, following on from our wrap of last week's Apple event, 
>>> this week's episode of The Blind Side Podcast features a comprehensive 
>>> unboxing, setting up, and then exploration of the new iPhone 7 Plus.
>>> If you'd like to take a listen, subscribe to The Blind Side Podcast in 
>>> any good podcatcher, or you can hear it on Sound Cloud via this URL.
>>> https://soundcloud.com/theblindsidepodcast/episode6 
>>> 
>>> Hope you find it interesting.
>>> Jonathan Mosen
>>> Mosen Consulting
>>> Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training
>>> http://Mosen.org 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>>>  
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, 
>>> or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact 
>>> the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list 
>>> itself.
>>>  
>>> Y

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

No they wouldn’t move as fast because they still have to push the update 
through the manufacturer.  That adds delay, they could have never fixed the 
phone this quickly and I had this happen to me on my S5.  A bad T-Mobile update 
caused a memory leak, took to long to fix I ended up shooting the phone before 
the update was made available because it kept rebooting during calls.

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 2:44 PM, Robin  wrote:
> 
> That's NOT Fair
> You're comparin' Apples&Oranges
> 
> A fairer comparison would be:
> TMobile havin' an Issue/Problem with AnAndroidDevice would TMobile Moved as 
> Quick with ThisIssue&ThisProblem of Service, I presume So
> JustSayin'
> 
> It's not AnApple iOS issue for iOSUsers with Other MobileCariers 
> It's simply confined to TMobile 
> JustSayin'
> At 06:44 PM 9/15/2016, you wrote:
>> Cheree, you’re not going anywhere.  Even if you don’t like the change in 
>> mail.  If you think that’s tricky try using Android.  Android is a joke of 
>> an operating system in comparison.  If for example you want to use the web 
>> or expect stability, expect to get your security patched and updates and 
>> even expect  consistent experience then you’ll just hate android.
>> 
>> Here’s a practical example.  T-Mobile had a problem in IOS 10, it took 
>> them about 48 hours to push an update to all the phones and correct their 
>> problem.  If this was the google world the update would be pushed to phones 
>> based on each individual vendor’s timeline, which in the case of Samsung 
>> for example may have taken months.  Samsung has been as much as a year out 
>> of date in releasing updates of the OS.
>> 
>> Don’t even get me started on windows and that after thought of an screen 
>> reader situation.
>> 
>> I had such a bad experience with a Galaxy phone i actually took it to the 
>> firing range and put a 308 round through the phone.  It rebooted one to many 
>> times during a phone interview to live.;)
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:03 PM, Cheree Heppe >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
>>> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy system, 
>>> namely OS.
>>> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The iOS 
>>> represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.  Among 
>>> the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>>> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going to 
>>> be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This mail 
>>> issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve, to make 
>>> simpler, to add features.
>>> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release 
>>> notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful or 
>>> easily usable.
>>> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on that 
>>> clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the iOs.  
>>> It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place to the 
>>> more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other way round.
>>> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.  
>>> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at rehab, 
>>> insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our own good.
>>> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk losing 
>>> something that could and did change the world for us.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden >> > wrote:
>>> 
 Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now looks 
 much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
 
 When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled the 
 same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a thread to 
 activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this view, 
 single-finger vertical flick moves up and down through the messages. 
 Single-finger horrizontal flicks read through the specific message. 
 Double-tap on the delete button at the bottom of the screen deletes all 
 messages in the thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick moves between 
 threads, threads and individual messages which do not belong to threads, 
 and individual messages. In other words, the same as single-finger 
 horrizontal flick in the message list screen.
 
 If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread must 
 be expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger vertical 
 flick to expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is unpacked and all 
 the messages in the thread are treated like non-thread messages. Now that 
 I have become used to this new system, I really like it. It took me a

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

and whether you have a fire proof place to run the phone.

CNBC is running a piece on the S7 now and how it may be added to the recall as 
they are catching fire it turns out as well.


> On Sep 16, 2016, at 2:46 PM, Robin  wrote:
> 
> Samsung
> NuffSaid
> 
> Although it might NOT be OnPar with Accessibility as Apple for Some, but for 
> Others it is
> 
> It depends ON YourLevel of TechSavy Skills to TroubleShoot problems&issues, 
> which may arise
> At 06:44 PM 9/15/2016, you wrote:
>>   You tell it to the universe. We are using a product that is mainstream and 
>> for the most part accessible. Please tell us what other company building 
>> mainstream products has better accessibility.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>  Are We Alone in the Universe?
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> 
>> On 9/15/2016 6:39 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>>> No.
>>> Disregarding working, intuitive practice for fluffy, legacy emulation is
>>> not progress.
>>> Tell that to the galactic Oogy Buggy.
>>> This is a marketing problem.  If it isn't what I like or can use, it's a
>>> marketing issue.
>>> Tell that to the Galactic Trader's Alliance.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 18:30, E.T. >> > wrote:
>>> 
  Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time
 adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable.
 If that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course,
 jump ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
 
  Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called
 Applevis.
 
  How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system
 but it sure outruns Windows.
 
 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
 Are We Alone in the Universe?
 ancient.ali...@icloud.com 
 
 On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
> system, namely OS.
> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
> iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily adopted.
> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
> to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
> mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
> to make simpler, to add features.
> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No release
> notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful
> or easily usable.
> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
> that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using the
> iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place
> to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other
> way round.
> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at
> rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our
> own good.
> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk
> losing something that could and did change the world for us.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden  
> > wrote:
> 
>> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now
>> looks much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
>> 
>> When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled
>> the same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a
>> thread to activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this
>> view, single-finger vertical flick moves up and down through the
>> messages. Single-finger horrizontal flicks read through the specific
>> message. Double-tap on the delete button at the bottom of the screen
>> deletes all messages in the thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick
>> moves between threads, threads and individual messages which do not
>> belong to threads, and individual messages. In other words, the same
>> as single-finger horrizontal flick in the message list screen.
>> 
>> If one wishes to delete only some messages from a thread, the thread
>> must be expanded. Whilst in the main message screen, single-finger
>> vertical flick to expand thread and double-tap. Now, the thread is
>> unpacked and all the messages in the thread are treated like
>> non-thread messages. Now that I have become used to this new system, I
>> really like it. It

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Robin]

Thanx 4 Sharin', Didn't know that. I'm just 
Curious why it took SoLong for Samsung's GalaxyS7 
& GalaxyS7Edge MobilePhones to CatchFire as you 
have implied based on Stories you heard from 
(what I beleive) are National Media OutLets


What's Next? Will My GalaxyS6Edge catch Fire? 
DoubtIt I've had it for Almost a Year&Half

JustSayin'
At 02:01 PM 9/16/2016, you wrote:

and whether you have a fire proof place to run the phone.

CNBC is running a piece on the S7 now and how it 
may be added to the recall as they are catching fire it turns out as well.



> On Sep 16, 2016, at 2:46 PM, Robin  wrote:
>
> Samsung
> NuffSaid
>
> Although it might NOT be OnPar with 
Accessibility as Apple for Some, but for Others it is

>
> It depends ON YourLevel of TechSavy Skills to 
TroubleShoot problems&issues, which may arise

> At 06:44 PM 9/15/2016, you wrote:
>>   You tell it to the universe. We are using 
a product that is mainstream and for the most 
part accessible. Please tell us what other 
company building mainstream products has better accessibility.

>>
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>  Are We Alone in the Universe?
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>
>> On 9/15/2016 6:39 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>>> No.
>>> Disregarding working, intuitive practice for fluffy, legacy emulation is
>>> not progress.
>>> Tell that to the galactic Oogy Buggy.
>>> This is a marketing problem.  If it isn't what I like or can use, it's a
>>> marketing issue.
>>> Tell that to the Galactic Trader's Alliance.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 18:30, E.T. >> > wrote:
>>>
  Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time
 adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable.
 If that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course,
 jump ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.

  Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called
 Applevis.

  How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system
 but it sure outruns Windows.

 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
 Are We Alone in the Universe?
 ancient.ali...@icloud.com 

 On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
> system, namely OS.
> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
> iOS represents a gateway experience that 
the public has readily adopted.

> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
> to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
> mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
> to make simpler, to add features.
> My experience has unfortunately invited 
an opposite opinion.  No release

> notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful
> or easily usable.
> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
> that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard 
usage system and those using the

> iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place
> to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other
> way round.
> Each update adds extra complications to 
iOS in the name of improvements.

> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at
> rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our
> own good.
> I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk
> losing something that could and did change the world for us.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden  
> > wrote:
>
>> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now
>> looks much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
>>
>> When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled
>> the same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a
>> thread to activate it, one goes into a browse thread view. In this
>> view, single-finger vertical flick moves up and down through the
>> messages. Single-finger horrizontal flicks read through the specific
>> message. Double-tap on the delete button at the bottom of the screen
>> deletes all messages in the thread. Three-finger horrizontal flick
>> moves between threads, threads and individual messages which do not
>> belong to threads, and individual messages. In other words, the same
>> as single-finger horrizontal flick in the message list screen.
>>
>> If one wishes to delete only s

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

If memory serves that’s where we met I think on that mobile speak list.  Kawal 
as well, I think Mark was over there with us, Donna and what ever happened to 
Carlos palomino?  I’m trying to remember I think Ricardo goes that far back as 
well, I’m sure I’m forgetting a bunch.  I’ve seen a lot of old names on this 
list.  More so than on the Android side.  Oh and how could I forget George? :)



> On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:42 PM, David Chittenden  wrote:
> 
> I also came from Code Factory's Mobile Pocket PC. Save for the onscreen 
> keyboard, that package turned the touch-screen into four buttons. I 
> definitely prefer the modern way of doing touch-screens for the blind.
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com 
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On 16/09/2016, at 23:44, Donna Goodin  > wrote:
> 
>> Keep us all posted on this, Scott.  I will be very interested to hear about 
>> your experience.  I tried an Android phone--several of them, actually--back 
>> in 2010, and found it to be utterly inferior to the iPhone experience in 
>> just about every way.  I assume Android accessibility has made some strides 
>> since then, but my earlier experience was bad enough that I'll let someone 
>> else do the comparison testing. :)
>> Cheers,
>> Donna
>>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:31 AM, Scott Granados >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> I sure am but the pure android experience not one rebaked by another 
>>> vendor.  Google hasn’t released their devices yet.  I’d like to do a 
>>> comparison so I’ll use the 7+ and when the Nexus replacements come out I’ll 
>>> put down the 7+ and move the SIM to the new phone and compare.  This way 
>>> it’s a full dedicated experience instead of trying to flip back and forth 
>>> between devices and take my own advice to commit.:)
>>> 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:15 PM, Mary Otten >>> > wrote:
 
 OK, Scott. But weren't you going to try a more recent android experience?
 Mary
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Scott Granados  > wrote:
> 
> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock 
>> mailto:michael.babcoc...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, 
>> means nothing honestly.
>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the 
>> everyone business and the people who do like there products and services 
>> obviously pay more.
>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>> A PC…
>> A Personal Computer … 
>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes 
>> will continue paying for them.
>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing 
>> there updates, and just had to say, so what…
>> Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make 
>> that phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.
>> #choices.
>> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
>> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
>> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis 
>> released helped me a lot.
>> Thanks for reading my rant.
>> Best.
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T. >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time 
>>> adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. 
>>> If that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, 
>>> jump ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
>>> 
>>> Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
>>> Applevis.
>>> 
>>> How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but 
>>> it sure outruns Windows.
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>> Are We Alone in the Universe?
>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com 
>>> 
 On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
 It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
 functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
 system, namely OS.
 If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
 iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily 
 adopted.
 Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
 If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
 to be forced int

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

David, isn’t the new version of Talkback 5.x able to have redefinable gestures?

I’m good at gestures too unfortunately it’s usually the one involving the 
middle finger.

;)

I thought I read though the right angles are redefinable.  I hated them as 
well, never got the hang.

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:58 PM, David Chittenden  wrote:
> 
> I have an LG Nexus 9 (Google Android) tablet which runs stock Android. The 
> right angle gestures are the current downfall of that system. I am very good 
> at performing gestures. With the right-angle gestures, one must draw a 
> straight horrizontal or vertical line, followed by a straight line which is a 
> right-angle turn at the end of the first line. The complete gesture must be 
> drawn within half a second, and must be quite precise. Sighted people do this 
> without any difficulty. I am now able to do it successfully about 1/3 the 
> time, after a couple months of practice. If Google did arcs rather than right 
> angles, it would work without much difficulty, and I would use a stock 
> Android as my second phone, rather than two iPhones.
> 
> Samsung rewrote the interface with Speech Assist and took out the angle 
> gestures. They put in more multiple finger commands. However, their interface 
> is not-at-all customisable, and it does not provide as many advanced features 
> as voiceover. Oh, and they have a recent history of current devices lighting 
> up people's lives.
> 
> Now, if any of the TALKBack crowd wish to give me useable strategies for 
> performing angle commands, without vision, and it being precise more than 95% 
> of the time, I will definitely listen, practice, and work more with Android. 
> I believe in multiple accessible general market products, but the interface 
> must be usable.
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com 
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On 16/09/2016, at 23:43, Scott Granados  > wrote:
> 
>> Simon, I like your humor buddy.;)
>> 
>> Well played sir.
>> 
>>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 3:50 AM, Simon Fogarty >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Scott,
>>> 
>>> Um, that type of prostate exam would probably be ok, because it's now done 
>>> with a blood test, so captain hook would be able to help get the blood out!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>>  
>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> ] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
>>> Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 1:46 PM
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
>>> 
>>> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
>>> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock >>> > wrote:
 
 Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
 All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
 nothing honestly.
 Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
 business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
 pay more.
 What is a Mac in most cases?
 A PC…
 A Personal Computer …
 But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes 
 will continue paying for them.
 I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing 
 there updates, and just had to say, so what… Switch to android, back to a 
 Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that phone?), windows 10 touch 
 phone, etc.
 #choices.
 And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
 couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
 didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released 
 helped me a lot.
 Thanks for reading my rant.
 Best.
 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  > wrote:
> 
> Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time 
> adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If 
> that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump 
> ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
> 
> Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
> Applevis.
> 
> How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it 
> sure outruns Windows.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
> Are We Alone in the Universe?
> ancient.ali...@icloud.com 
> 
> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
>> functionali

RE: Audio of my iPhone 7 Plus unboxing/familiarisation

[Simon Fogarty]

Hi Scott,

Yeah I looked at this yesterday and rung apple to discuss a couple of things.

The guy I spoke to said the jet black colour is not available till approx. 
November  and that was in both models and all sizes
Even the matt black was on back order till 2 to 3 weeks from now.

I’d love to know what the quality of the jet black finish is like, its meant to 
look awesome but must be a pig for keeping clean of fingrerr prints.

I think I’d rather have one I could put a case on and keep safe,I’d see myself 
dropping the jet black and scratching it or breaking it killing the finish.

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Scott Granados
Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 11:25 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Audio of my iPhone 7 Plus unboxing/familiarisation

Mary, you had to be one of the cool kids and get the black model.:)

I heard it’s back ordered until October, true?

On Sep 15, 2016, at 10:54 PM, Mary Otten 
mailto:motte...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Oh good. Looking forward to it. Even though my phone is a few weeks away.
Mary

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 7:39 PM, Jonathan Mosen 
mailto:jmo...@mosen.org>> wrote:
Hi everyone, following on from our wrap of last week's Apple event, this week's 
episode of The Blind Side Podcast features a comprehensive unboxing, setting 
up, and then exploration of the new iPhone 7 Plus.
If you'd like to take a listen, subscribe to The Blind Side Podcast in any good 
podcatcher, or you can hear it on Sound Cloud via this URL.
https://soundcloud.com/theblindsidepodcast/episode6
Hope you find it interesting.
Jonathan Mosen
Mosen Consulting
Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training
http://Mosen.org


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iPhone and incoming calls

[E.T.]

   Curious to know how an incoming call is handled when I am already on 
a call. I think it happened today and not expecting it, did not hear VO 
as it was muted during my call.


   I heard beeps but had to stay on my call.

From E.T.'s Keyboard...
  Are We Alone in the Universe?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

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<>

RE: Audio of my iPhone 7 Plus unboxing/familiarisation

[Simon Fogarty]

Donna could you pick me up a matt black 128 gig 7+ I’ll send you a cheque!

But only once the phone arrives in my hands!

You guys are lucky to have apple stores you can buy from.

The sales person I spoke to in a retail store here in my town knew less than I 
did about the new phones.they don’t like it when you tell them they are wrong!
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Donna Goodin
Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 11:29 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Audio of my iPhone 7 Plus unboxing/familiarisation

I don't get the popularity of the black model.  Going for the rose gold again, 
myself.  On my way to get my phone this morning!!
Cheers,
Donna
On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:25 AM, Scott Granados 
mailto:sc...@qualityip.net>> wrote:

Mary, you had to be one of the cool kids and get the black model.:)

I heard it’s back ordered until October, true?

On Sep 15, 2016, at 10:54 PM, Mary Otten 
mailto:motte...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Oh good. Looking forward to it. Even though my phone is a few weeks away.
Mary

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 7:39 PM, Jonathan Mosen 
mailto:jmo...@mosen.org>> wrote:
Hi everyone, following on from our wrap of last week's Apple event, this week's 
episode of The Blind Side Podcast features a comprehensive unboxing, setting 
up, and then exploration of the new iPhone 7 Plus.
If you'd like to take a listen, subscribe to The Blind Side Podcast in any good 
podcatcher, or you can hear it on Sound Cloud via this URL.
https://soundcloud.com/theblindsidepodcast/episode6
Hope you find it interesting.
Jonathan Mosen
Mosen Consulting
Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training
http://Mosen.org


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For more opt

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Donna Goodin]

You know, after our exchange this morning, I was wondering about Carlos, too.  
Last I heard, he graduated and got a job at a bank, I think.  Has anyone heard 
from him?
Cheers,
Donna
> On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:31 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> If memory serves that’s where we met I think on that mobile speak list.  
> Kawal as well, I think Mark was over there with us, Donna and what ever 
> happened to Carlos palomino?  I’m trying to remember I think Ricardo goes 
> that far back as well, I’m sure I’m forgetting a bunch.  I’ve seen a lot of 
> old names on this list.  More so than on the Android side.  Oh and how could 
> I forget George? :)
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:42 PM, David Chittenden > > wrote:
>> 
>> I also came from Code Factory's Mobile Pocket PC. Save for the onscreen 
>> keyboard, that package turned the touch-screen into four buttons. I 
>> definitely prefer the modern way of doing touch-screens for the blind.
>> 
>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com 
>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On 16/09/2016, at 23:44, Donna Goodin > > wrote:
>> 
>>> Keep us all posted on this, Scott.  I will be very interested to hear about 
>>> your experience.  I tried an Android phone--several of them, actually--back 
>>> in 2010, and found it to be utterly inferior to the iPhone experience in 
>>> just about every way.  I assume Android accessibility has made some strides 
>>> since then, but my earlier experience was bad enough that I'll let someone 
>>> else do the comparison testing. :)
>>> Cheers,
>>> Donna
 On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:31 AM, Scott Granados >>> > wrote:
 
 I sure am but the pure android experience not one rebaked by another 
 vendor.  Google hasn’t released their devices yet.  I’d like to do a 
 comparison so I’ll use the 7+ and when the Nexus replacements come out 
 I’ll put down the 7+ and move the SIM to the new phone and compare.  This 
 way it’s a full dedicated experience instead of trying to flip back and 
 forth between devices and take my own advice to commit.:)
 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:15 PM, Mary Otten  > wrote:
> 
> OK, Scott. But weren't you going to try a more recent android experience?
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Scott Granados > > wrote:
>> 
>> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
>> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock 
>>> mailto:michael.babcoc...@gmail.com>> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, 
>>> means nothing honestly.
>>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the 
>>> everyone business and the people who do like there products and 
>>> services obviously pay more.
>>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>>> A PC…
>>> A Personal Computer … 
>>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes 
>>> will continue paying for them.
>>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing 
>>> there updates, and just had to say, so what…
>>> Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make 
>>> that phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.
>>> #choices.
>>> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
>>> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
>>> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis 
>>> released helped me a lot.
>>> Thanks for reading my rant.
>>> Best.
>>> 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T. >>> > wrote:
 
 Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time 
 adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. 
 If that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, 
 jump ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
 
 Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
 Applevis.
 
 How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but 
 it sure outruns Windows.
 
 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
 Are We Alone in the Universe?
 ancient.ali...@icloud.com 
 
> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older,

Re: iPhone and incoming calls

[Tim Kilburn]

Hi,

I've had it cut off the current call twice for me.  Haven't determined whether 
it's an iOS 10 thing or an SNR thing on my IP phone.

Later...

Tim Kilburn
Fort McMurray, AB Canada

On Sep 16, 2016, at 15:34, E.T.  wrote:

  Curious to know how an incoming call is handled when I am already on a call. 
I think it happened today and not expecting it, did not hear VO as it was muted 
during my call.

  I heard beeps but had to stay on my call.

>From E.T.'s Keyboard...
 Are We Alone in the Universe?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

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RE: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Simon Fogarty]

Personally I think this is probly one of the most stable IOS updates I have 
seen.

I haven’t found any of the issues with mail others are reporting.

Although I wasn’t able to move a couple of emails from one in box to another 
location in a second mail account, but hell it’s not a big issue,
Reporting the issues to apple goes along way to getting things corrected 
quickly and they do appreciate it.

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Scott Granados
Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 11:35 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

You know what would be nice too, is if we were less anal about the public beta 
and discussed these major changes openly so people aren’t surprised.  The 
Cheree’s of the world could elect not to update for example until a 
satisfactory alternative presents itself or not update at all putting the 
control in their hands instead of jumping in with out all the facts to make an 
informed decision.

It would also be nice if Apple could unbundle the security updates from the OS 
updates so again folks not wanting to update could apply security patches and 
stay safe with out introducing new features.  That might undo some of the apple 
advantage though but I’m definitely not against putting more choice in to the 
hands of the end user.

On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:13 PM, Mary Otten 
mailto:motte...@gmail.com>> wrote:

 I think where Apple could do better would be in releasing some documentation 
regarding how voiceover users are supposed to deal with things that have 
substantially changed. I don't agree that things have to stay the same. And 
David's discussion of how to deal with the email was very good. I think that 
Apple should do that. I also think that Apple should update their documentation 
on commands, Bluetooth, braille display etc. One of the things about making a 
commitment to accessibility is to realize that for people who can. See, dealing 
with the changes to the interface may be a lot easier then for people who 
can't. That's why they need to employ people who get that, since your average 
designer doesn't. There are a lot of things that become immediately clear 
decided people because they can take in the entire interface at once and 
understand how to deal with it. That's not so easy if you can't do that.
Mary

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:47 PM, Cheree Heppe 
mailto:che...@dogsc4me.com>> wrote:
That's nonsense.
I pay exactly the same amount for my Apple products as anyone else.
Apple claims universal design.
When design changes or functional alterations lose the way, that isn't about 
somebody pays more, that's about somebody misunderstanding universal design.
Luckily, not all sighted people think as you and some others have quoted, or 
the disabled and blind would still be sitting by coal scuttles and weaving 
baskets to the tune of you are a minority and don't count.
Drop the doctored rehab drivel and embrace universal design, not change for its 
own sake.


Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 18:40, michael babcock 
mailto:michael.babcoc...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
nothing honestly.
Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
business and the people who do like there products and services obviously pay 
more.
What is a Mac in most cases?
A PC…
A Personal Computer …
But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes will 
continue paying for them.
I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing there 
updates, and just had to say, so what…
Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that 
phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.
#choices.
And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He didn’t 
know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released helped me a 
lot.
Thanks for reading my rant.
Best.


On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T. 
mailto:ancient.ali...@icloud.com>> wrote:

 Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time adapting to 
change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If that is what you 
deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump ship. But, inevitable 
there as well. the cycle repeats itself.

 Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called Applevis.

 How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it sure 
outruns Windows.

>From E.T.'s Keyboard...
Are We Alone in the Universe?
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
system, namel

So not being one of the cool kids paid off this morning!

[Donna Goodin]

I got to VZ forty minutes after they opened.  Already they had no black phones, 
and they weren't even sent any 7+ models.  Rather convenient that i wanted a 
rose gold 7. :)
Cheers,
Donna

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The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
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Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara Quinn 
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Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Mary Otten]

I'm not David, but the answer is yes and no. Yes, you can redefine talkback 
gestures. And depending on how many jesters you need, you might be able to  
unassign all of the angle ones. But in practice, at least in my opinion, there 
aren't enough non-angle jesters to do all the stuff I want to do in talkback 
directly if that makes any sense. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 2:33 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> David, isn’t the new version of Talkback 5.x able to have redefinable 
> gestures?
> 
> I’m good at gestures too unfortunately it’s usually the one involving the 
> middle finger.
> 
> ;)
> 
> I thought I read though the right angles are redefinable.  I hated them as 
> well, never got the hang.
> 
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:58 PM, David Chittenden  wrote:
>> 
>> I have an LG Nexus 9 (Google Android) tablet which runs stock Android. The 
>> right angle gestures are the current downfall of that system. I am very good 
>> at performing gestures. With the right-angle gestures, one must draw a 
>> straight horrizontal or vertical line, followed by a straight line which is 
>> a right-angle turn at the end of the first line. The complete gesture must 
>> be drawn within half a second, and must be quite precise. Sighted people do 
>> this without any difficulty. I am now able to do it successfully about 1/3 
>> the time, after a couple months of practice. If Google did arcs rather than 
>> right angles, it would work without much difficulty, and I would use a stock 
>> Android as my second phone, rather than two iPhones.
>> 
>> Samsung rewrote the interface with Speech Assist and took out the angle 
>> gestures. They put in more multiple finger commands. However, their 
>> interface is not-at-all customisable, and it does not provide as many 
>> advanced features as voiceover. Oh, and they have a recent history of 
>> current devices lighting up people's lives.
>> 
>> Now, if any of the TALKBack crowd wish to give me useable strategies for 
>> performing angle commands, without vision, and it being precise more than 
>> 95% of the time, I will definitely listen, practice, and work more with 
>> Android. I believe in multiple accessible general market products, but the 
>> interface must be usable.
>> 
>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On 16/09/2016, at 23:43, Scott Granados  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Simon, I like your humor buddy.;)
>>> 
>>> Well played sir.
>>> 
 On Sep 16, 2016, at 3:50 AM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
 
 Scott,
 
 Um, that type of prostate exam would probably be ok, because it's now done 
 with a blood test, so captain hook would be able to help get the blood out!
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
 [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
 Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 1:46 PM
 To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
 Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
 
 Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
 prostate exam from Captain Hook.
 
 
 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock 
>  wrote:
> 
> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, 
> means nothing honestly.
> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
> pay more.
> What is a Mac in most cases?
> A PC…
> A Personal Computer …
> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes 
> will continue paying for them.
> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing 
> there updates, and just had to say, so what… Switch to android, back to a 
> Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that phone?), windows 10 touch 
> phone, etc.
> #choices.
> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis 
> released helped me a lot.
> Thanks for reading my rant.
> Best.
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>> 
>> Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time 
>> adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. 
>> If that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, 
>> jump ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
>> 
>> Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
>> Applevis.
>> 
>> How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but 
>> it sure outruns Windows.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Donna Goodin]

I'm liking IOS 10, as well, though I don't use threaded view in Mail.
Cheers,
Donna
> On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:40 PM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
> 
> Personally I think this is probly one of the most stable IOS updates I have 
> seen.
>  
> I haven’t found any of the issues with mail others are reporting.
>  
> Although I wasn’t able to move a couple of emails from one in box to another 
> location in a second mail account, but hell it’s not a big issue,
> Reporting the issues to apple goes along way to getting things corrected 
> quickly and they do appreciate it.
>  
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>  
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> ] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
> Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 11:35 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
>  
> You know what would be nice too, is if we were less anal about the public 
> beta and discussed these major changes openly so people aren’t surprised.  
> The Cheree’s of the world could elect not to update for example until a 
> satisfactory alternative presents itself or not update at all putting the 
> control in their hands instead of jumping in with out all the facts to make 
> an informed decision.
>  
> It would also be nice if Apple could unbundle the security updates from the 
> OS updates so again folks not wanting to update could apply security patches 
> and stay safe with out introducing new features.  That might undo some of the 
> apple advantage though but I’m definitely not against putting more choice in 
> to the hands of the end user.
>  
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:13 PM, Mary Otten  > wrote:
>  
>  I think where Apple could do better would be in releasing some documentation 
> regarding how voiceover users are supposed to deal with things that have 
> substantially changed. I don't agree that things have to stay the same. And 
> David's discussion of how to deal with the email was very good. I think that 
> Apple should do that. I also think that Apple should update their 
> documentation on commands, Bluetooth, braille display etc. One of the things 
> about making a commitment to accessibility is to realize that for people who 
> can. See, dealing with the changes to the interface may be a lot easier then 
> for people who can't. That's why they need to employ people who get that, 
> since your average designer doesn't. There are a lot of things that become 
> immediately clear decided people because they can take in the entire 
> interface at once and understand how to deal with it. That's not so easy if 
> you can't do that.
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:47 PM, Cheree Heppe  > wrote:
> 
> That's nonsense.
> I pay exactly the same amount for my Apple products as anyone else.
> Apple claims universal design.
> When design changes or functional alterations lose the way, that isn't about 
> somebody pays more, that's about somebody misunderstanding universal design.
> Luckily, not all sighted people think as you and some others have quoted, or 
> the disabled and blind would still be sitting by coal scuttles and weaving 
> baskets to the tune of you are a minority and don't count.
> Drop the doctored rehab drivel and embrace universal design, not change for 
> its own sake.
>  
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 18:40, michael babcock  > wrote:
> 
> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
> nothing honestly.
> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously pay 
> more.
> What is a Mac in most cases?
> A PC…
> A Personal Computer … 
> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes will 
> continue paying for them.
> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing there 
> updates, and just had to say, so what…
> Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that 
> phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.
> #choices.
> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He didn’t 
> know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released helped me 
> a lot.
> Thanks for reading my rant.
> Best.
> 
> 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  > wrote:
>  
>  Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time adapting 
> to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If that is what 
> you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump ship. But, 
> inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.

RE: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Simon Fogarty]

Yeah I still can't get my head around the accessibility like the apple devices,

 I'ts just the transistion 
I've tried the galaxy s5 s6 and s7 edge, but recently tried using a Vodafone 
labelled device which was running android OS5 nice device but weird interface 
couldn't figure out what they had done to it but still for 50 Kiwi dollars 
people can't really complain.
-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Scott Granados
Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 11:46 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

You know the Samsung devices have a custom interface that is much more iPhone 
like.  That makes it easier for some to transition over.  I have my issues with 
Samsung but others may have a better time of it and that’s one similarity that 
may make it easier and worth while.

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:10 AM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
> 
> Hi Mary,
> 
> I've played with OS 6 from android and I didn't find it any easier to 
> use than os 5
> 
> Mind you I have to admit I can't stop doing gestures fo rthe iPhone but then 
> that's just because it's my device of preference.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mary Otten
> Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 3:15 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
> 
> OK, Scott. But weren't you going to try a more recent android experience?
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:46 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>> 
>> Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
>> prostate exam from Captain Hook.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
>>> nothing honestly.
>>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
>>> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
>>> pay more.
>>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>>> A PC…
>>> A Personal Computer …
>>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes will 
>>> continue paying for them.
>>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is 
>>> doing there updates, and just had to say, so what… Switch to android, back 
>>> to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that phone?), windows 10 
>>> touch phone, etc.
>>> #choices.
>>> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
>>> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
>>> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released 
>>> helped me a lot.
>>> Thanks for reading my rant.
>>> Best.
>>> 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
 
 Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time adapting 
 to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If that is 
 what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course, jump ship. But, 
 inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
 
 Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called 
 Applevis.
 
 How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system but it 
 sure outruns Windows.
 
 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
 Are We Alone in the Universe?
 ancient.ali...@icloud.com
 
> On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
> It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined 
> functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy 
> system, namely OS.
> If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  
> The iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily 
> adopted.
> Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
> If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am 
> going to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook 
> alternative.  This mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an 
> update promised to improve, to make simpler, to add features.
> My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No 
> release notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and 
> just not helpful or easily usable.
> It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned 
> on that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those 
> using the iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS 
> needs to give place to the more modern, more intuitive, more 
> usable iOs and not the other way round.
> Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of improvements.
> There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends 
> at rehab, insist on speaking f

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[Scott Granados]

So the problem turns out that Samsung was not responding to complaints from 
users.  Once the US government got involved more started to come out.  The two 
phones they mentioned by name other than the Note 7 are the S7 (didn’t say edge 
or regular) and the Core which I’m not familiar.  I’m with you though if it 
hasn’t been a problem it’s probably not going to be for you.  I charge my stuff 
on a metal table anyway so if it self destructed, no matter the brand it 
shouldn’t matter.  Anybody can have battery problems, look at the hover boards 
as an example or the vapor smoking battery operated puffers, they blow up and 
cause fire all the time from cheap chinese parts.  Samsung doesn’t have the 
monopoly on bad batteries.  It’s just they handled the situation less than 
perfectly.



> On Sep 16, 2016, at 5:22 PM, Robin  wrote:
> 
> Thanx 4 Sharin', Didn't know that. I'm just Curious why it took SoLong for 
> Samsung's GalaxyS7 & GalaxyS7Edge MobilePhones to CatchFire as you have 
> implied based on Stories you heard from (what I beleive) are National Media 
> OutLets
> 
> What's Next? Will My GalaxyS6Edge catch Fire? DoubtIt I've had it for Almost 
> a Year&Half
> JustSayin'
> At 02:01 PM 9/16/2016, you wrote:
>> and whether you have a fire proof place to run the phone.
>> 
>> CNBC is running a piece on the S7 now and how it may be added to the recall 
>> as they are catching fire it turns out as well.
>> 
>> 
>> > On Sep 16, 2016, at 2:46 PM, Robin  wrote:
>> >
>> > Samsung
>> > NuffSaid
>> >
>> > Although it might NOT be OnPar with Accessibility as Apple for Some, but 
>> > for Others it is
>> >
>> > It depends ON YourLevel of TechSavy Skills to TroubleShoot 
>> > problems&issues, which may arise
>> > At 06:44 PM 9/15/2016, you wrote:
>> >>   You tell it to the universe. We are using a product that is mainstream 
>> >> and for the most part accessible. Please tell us what other company 
>> >> building mainstream products has better accessibility.
>> >>
>> >> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>> >>  Are We Alone in the Universe?
>> >> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> >>
>> >> On 9/15/2016 6:39 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>> >>> No.
>> >>> Disregarding working, intuitive practice for fluffy, legacy emulation is
>> >>> not progress.
>> >>> Tell that to the galactic Oogy Buggy.
>> >>> This is a marketing problem.  If it isn't what I like or can use, it's a
>> >>> marketing issue.
>> >>> Tell that to the Galactic Trader's Alliance.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Sent from my iPhone
>> >>>
>> >>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 18:30, E.T. > >>> > wrote:
>> >>>
>>   Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time
>>  adapting to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable.
>>  If that is what you deem as force, well, the solution is, of course,
>>  jump ship. But, inevitable there as well. the cycle repeats itself.
>> 
>>   Release notes of sorts can be found at the wonderful resource called
>>  Applevis.
>> 
>>   How long have you been using OS X? I am still learning this system
>>  but it sure outruns Windows.
>> 
>>  From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>  Are We Alone in the Universe?
>>  ancient.ali...@icloud.com 
>> 
>>  On 9/15/2016 6:03 PM, Cheree Heppe wrote:
>> > It seems counterproductive to force an up-to-date, streamlined
>> > functionality, such as iOS to emulate an older, difficult, clumsy
>> > system, namely OS.
>> > If I'm not mistaken, there are more users of the iOS than the OS.  The
>> > iOS represents a gateway experience that the public has readily 
>> > adopted.
>> > Among the public are large numbers of blind and disabled users.
>> > If this new mail modality represents Apple's future for iOS, I am going
>> > to be forced into seeking another phone and notebook alternative.  This
>> > mail issue mushroomed, full-blown, from an update promised to improve,
>> > to make simpler, to add features.
>> > My experience has unfortunately invited an opposite opinion.  No 
>> > release
>> > notes guided usage; it was just changed, just done and just not helpful
>> > or easily usable.
>> > It feels as though there is a tug-of-war between some who learned on
>> > that clumsy, multi-step, multi-keyboard usage system and those using 
>> > the
>> > iOs.  It is my opinion that the older, less easy OS needs to give place
>> > to the more modern, more intuitive, more usable iOs and not the other
>> > way round.
>> > Each update adds extra complications to iOS in the name of 
>> > improvements.
>> > There are a cadre of blind and sighted who, like the old friends at
>> > rehab, insist on speaking for us, the user/consumer blind, for our
>> > own good.
>> > I recommend that all of us speak up in our own best interest or risk
>> > losing something that could and did change the world for

Re: iOS 10 Bug Report: Please Join Me in Sending This VoiceOver Bug Report to Apple Regarding the Phone App

[Mário Navarro]

hi.
thank you for this.
I'll do my part.
cheers.

Às 19:26 de 15/09/2016, M. Taylor escreveu:

Hello Everyone,

Please join me in sending a VoiceOver feedback report to Apple regarding the
fact that VoiceOver users can no longer reorder Contacts listed in the
Favorites area of the Phone app.  Also, the Delete buttons are no longer
VoiceOver accessible.  Just so you know, using the VoiceOver Rotor, one can
delete a Contact from this list, however the Delete button displayed to the
left of each individual Contact item is inaccessible.

I have already written the report so all you need to do is to paste it into
a new email, either in its entirety or modified as you see fit.

[BEGIN REPORT]
Subject:  Reordering Favorite Contacts Control No Longer VoiceOver
Accessible in iOS 10.

In iOS 10, unlike in iOS 9.x, when VoiceOver is enabled, the user cannot
reorder Contacts in the Favorites area of the Phone app.

To reproduce this bug:

1.
Make certain that you have multiple Contacts selected as a Favorite.

2.
With VoiceOver enabled, open the Phone app.

3.
Select the Favorites Tab.

4.
Select the Edit button located near the upper right corner of the display.

5.
Even though the reorder controls are visible on the display, they are not
VoiceOver accessible.  It should also be noted that the Delete controls are
also visible but are also inaccessible via VoiceOver.
[END REPORT]

Thank you,

Mark



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Re: Search tab in iOS app store seems totally busted!

[don bishop]

Yes, I've noticed that too.  

Don  


- Original Message -
From: Christopher-Mark Gilland  
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Date: Friday, September 16, 2016 11:43 am
Subject: Search tab in iOS app store seems totally busted!

>
>
> So... When I go, in iOS10 to the app store, then to the search tab, I only 
> some of the time now see my search box at the top of the screen.  If I do see 
> it, I double tap.  The keyboard comes up, but if I then flick back up to the 
> text box, it doesn't say is editting.  If I try using Siri to dictate, 
> nothing gets inserted into the box.  If I manually type my query in, it'll 
> then type in the box, but the search button isn't showing at the bottom of 
> the keyboard.  in fact, as soon as I put my finger in the bottom right 
> quadrant of the screen to tap search, the keyboard disappears entirely, and I 
> land on the update tab instead.  I know I quote, need to just move my finger 
> up a little bit.  Trust me, I am profoundly familiar with the app store, and 
> how it works.  I'm doing this 100% correctly, I assure you beyond a doubt.
>  
> Plus, I have enough low vision to see what it's doing.  I'm definitely doing 
> it correctly.
>  
> The one time I somehow managed to get the search to carry out, mind you I 
> dono what the heck I did to do so, there were no results.  The key word I 
> searched for, just to see if I could make anything come up, not that I was 
> gonna download it was, Pokimon G.  No results came up after doing the search. 
>  Further, when I clicked clear search after the search field, it wouldn't 
> clear out what I typed.
>  
> I've rebooted the phone.  NO good.  I disconnected and reconnected to my 
> wifi.  No good.  I tried on cellular.  No good.  I even factory reset the 
> phone.  NO good, and no, after doing so, I didn't restore from a backup.  I 
> don't do that with major updates like this.  I just start over clean.
>  
> It wasn't doing this earlier this morning,  and what's weirded on the mac is, 
> when I open ITunes, I can't even get to the store anymore with 
> command+Shift+Have in the update that just came out.  It bwonks at me, if I 
> try.  I literally have to vo+Right arrow to the store radio button, then 
> VO+Space on it.  Incredibly, incredibly! clunky!
>  
> Is anyone else seeing this stuff?
>  
> Chris.
> - 
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Re: So not being one of the cool kids paid off this morning!

[Scott Granados]

Donna, this is the first year I know of not even the Apple stores had 7+ models 
available.  They were all sold out in preorder.  T-Mobile’s online sim changing 
tool was down today so I ended up on hold for an hour to get someone.  When I 
finally did though got a very helpful gentleman who was even aware of voiceover 
and how it worked.  I like little things like that where the support team is 
familiar with how to do something using the accessible method.  I also didn’t 
get that surprise like “your blind and can use a phone” BS.  Good professional 
interaction which earned him a 10 on the follow up survey.

I wonder how much of the shortage is self created to pump up interest and build 
in some positive press.

 

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 5:40 PM, Donna Goodin  wrote:
> 
> I got to VZ forty minutes after they opened.  Already they had no black 
> phones, and they weren't even sent any 7+ models.  Rather convenient that i 
> wanted a rose gold 7. :)
> Cheers,
> Donna
> 
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Re: iPhone and incoming calls

[Scott Granados]

E.T. the way it should work is with voice over enabled you’ll hear incoming 
call and you can swipe to various options including hold and accept which holds 
the current call, end and accept which switches calls and drops the existing, 
message which means message the new caller, and ignore.  To the left you’d hear 
the number and name if available.  You can also during a call press the hide 
button and add calls to a conference / 3way call as well on the outgoing side.

Hope that helps.

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 5:34 PM, E.T.  wrote:
> 
>   Curious to know how an incoming call is handled when I am already on a 
> call. I think it happened today and not expecting it, did not hear VO as it 
> was muted during my call.
> 
>   I heard beeps but had to stay on my call.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>  Are We Alone in the Universe?
> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> 
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RE: Audio of my iPhone 7 Plus unboxing/familiarisation

[Simon Fogarty]

And apple have dropped the gold version of their watch because it wasn’t 
selling.

Therefore they introduced the ceramic model.

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Scott Granados
Sent: Saturday, 17 September 2016 4:11 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Audio of my iPhone 7 Plus unboxing/familiarisation

I was torn between silver which matches the platinum watch I have or gold which 
matches another watch I have. The only problem is when I made that decision I 
realized that I have only been wearing steel apple watches since they came out 
so it doesn’t matter any more.:)  I see why Rolex’s sales are down 30% this 
year and they had to buy back their inventory from a lot of distributors.  
Everyone is wearing Fit Bit or apple watches now.  The trendy and high end 
markets are no longer high end swiss watches made with rare elements, it’s high 
tech.  For people wondering if the Apple Watch was a success or if it’s a game 
changer, Ask Rolex, Patek, Tag or any of them how it’s going?  :)  I have one 
watch that lost $40,000 in value over the last year on the resale market.  I’m 
sure it will recover but isn’t it funny how quietly that happened.  Sort of 
like a certain phone started to catch on 9 years ago when Blackberry was king.

Apple has a way of creating these trends and shocking different markets.  I’m 
not sure how much is artificially created by limiting preproduction and 
creating a pent up demand or if they really do get swamped with orders but what 
ever, it works, stocks at a 10 month high now heading towards all time high.

Go Mr. Cook!



On Sep 16, 2016, at 9:57 AM, Mary Otten 
mailto:motte...@gmail.com>> wrote:

My shipping estimate from T mobile is anywhere from September 26 through 
October 10. I would've been happy with space gray, but they got rid of it, so I 
went for Matt black. Obviously, since I can't see, I don't care about color. 
But sighted friends tell me that the matblack will show the fewest fingerprints 
and dirt. Works for me.
Mary

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:25 AM, Scott Granados 
mailto:sc...@qualityip.net>> wrote:
Mary, you had to be one of the cool kids and get the black model.:)

I heard it’s back ordered until October, true?

On Sep 15, 2016, at 10:54 PM, Mary Otten 
mailto:motte...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Oh good. Looking forward to it. Even though my phone is a few weeks away.
Mary

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 15, 2016, at 7:39 PM, Jonathan Mosen 
mailto:jmo...@mosen.org>> wrote:
Hi everyone, following on from our wrap of last week's Apple event, this week's 
episode of The Blind Side Podcast features a comprehensive unboxing, setting 
up, and then exploration of the new iPhone 7 Plus.
If you'd like to take a listen, subscribe to The Blind Side Podcast in any good 
podcatcher, or you can hear it on Sound Cloud via this URL.
https://soundcloud.com/theblindsidepodcast/episode6
Hope you find it interesting.
Jonathan Mosen
Mosen Consulting
Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training
http://Mosen.org


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Re: Search tab in iOS app store seems totally busted!

[Danny Noonan]

Perhaps it's evice specific as I'm having no trouble on my 6. 

Danny

Sent from my iPhone

> On 17 Sep. 2016, at 4:45 am, don bishop  wrote:
> 
> Yes, I've noticed that too.  
> 
> Don  
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: Christopher-Mark Gilland  
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Date: Friday, September 16, 2016 11:43 am
> Subject: Search tab in iOS app store seems totally busted!
> 
>> 
>> 
>> So... When I go, in iOS10 to the app store, then to the search tab, I only 
>> some of the time now see my search box at the top of the screen.  If I do 
>> see it, I double tap.  The keyboard comes up, but if I then flick back up to 
>> the text box, it doesn't say is editting.  If I try using Siri to dictate, 
>> nothing gets inserted into the box.  If I manually type my query in, it'll 
>> then type in the box, but the search button isn't showing at the bottom of 
>> the keyboard.  in fact, as soon as I put my finger in the bottom right 
>> quadrant of the screen to tap search, the keyboard disappears entirely, and 
>> I land on the update tab instead.  I know I quote, need to just move my 
>> finger up a little bit.  Trust me, I am profoundly familiar with the app 
>> store, and how it works.  I'm doing this 100% correctly, I assure you beyond 
>> a doubt.
>> 
>> Plus, I have enough low vision to see what it's doing.  I'm definitely doing 
>> it correctly.
>> 
>> The one time I somehow managed to get the search to carry out, mind you I 
>> dono what the heck I did to do so, there were no results.  The key word I 
>> searched for, just to see if I could make anything come up, not that I was 
>> gonna download it was, Pokimon G.  No results came up after doing the 
>> search.  Further, when I clicked clear search after the search field, it 
>> wouldn't clear out what I typed.
>> 
>> I've rebooted the phone.  NO good.  I disconnected and reconnected to my 
>> wifi.  No good.  I tried on cellular.  No good.  I even factory reset the 
>> phone.  NO good, and no, after doing so, I didn't restore from a backup.  I 
>> don't do that with major updates like this.  I just start over clean.
>> 
>> It wasn't doing this earlier this morning,  and what's weirded on the mac 
>> is, when I open ITunes, I can't even get to the store anymore with 
>> command+Shift+Have in the update that just came out.  It bwonks at me, if I 
>> try.  I literally have to vo+Right arrow to the store radio button, then 
>> VO+Space on it.  Incredibly, incredibly! clunky!
>> 
>> Is anyone else seeing this stuff?
>> 
>> Chris.
>> - 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
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>> 
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- you c

Re: Search tab in iOS app store seems totally busted!

[David Chittenden]

I am unable to reproduce your problem. I have two iPhones, an iPhone 5S, and an 
iPhone 6+. I double-tap on the search tab on the bottom of the display. I then 
double-tap on the search field. I then type in my query using the onscreen 
keyboard and the search button is in the lower right corner. Or, I use braille 
screen input and swipe right with two fingers to activate search. In both 
cases, on both iPhones, it just worked right before writing this message.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 17/09/2016, at 08:38, Brian Fischler  wrote:
> 
> I to am having an issue with the App Store and search on my new 7 and IOS 10, 
> not sure if it is device specific but when I dictate nothing enters in the 
> search box and if I type in what I am looking for VO does not read the 
> results just skips over them to the tabs at the bottom. Looking like a pretty 
> serious issue.
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 2:49 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>> 
>>   What search tab? Just find the search field where its always been located.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>  Are We Alone in the Universe?
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> 
>>> On 9/16/2016 11:41 AM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:
>>> So... When I go, in iOS10 to the app store, then to the search tab, I
>>> only some of the time now see my search box at the top of the screen.
>>> If I do see it, I double tap.  The keyboard comes up, but if I then
>>> flick back up to the text box, it doesn't say is editting.  If I try
>>> using Siri to dictate, nothing gets inserted into the box.  If I
>>> manually type my query in, it'll then type in the box, but the search
>>> button isn't showing at the bottom of the keyboard.  in fact, as soon as
>>> I put my finger in the bottom right quadrant of the screen to tap
>>> search, the keyboard disappears entirely, and I land on the update tab
>>> instead.  I know I quote, need to just move my finger up a little bit.
>>> Trust me, I am profoundly familiar with the app store, and how it
>>> works.  I'm doing this 100% correctly, I assure you beyond a doubt.
>>> 
>>> Plus, I have enough low vision to see what it's doing.  I'm definitely
>>> doing it correctly.
>>> 
>>> The one time I somehow managed to get the search to carry out, mind you
>>> I dono what the heck I did to do so, there were no results. The key
>>> word I searched for, just to see if I could make anything come up, not
>>> that I was gonna download it was, Pokimon Go.  No results came up after
>>> doing the search.  Further, when I clicked clear search after the search
>>> field, it wouldn't clear out what I typed.
>>> 
>>> I've rebooted the phone.  NO good.  I disconnected and reconnected to my
>>> wifi.  No good.  I tried on cellular.  No good.  I even factory reset
>>> the phone.  NO good, and no, after doing so, I didn't restore from a
>>> backup.  I don't do that with major updates like this.  I just start
>>> over clean.
>>> 
>>> It wasn't doing this earlier this morning,  and what's weirded on the
>>> mac is, when I open ITunes, I can't even get to the store anymore with
>>> command+Shift+H in the update that just came out.  It bwonks at me, if I
>>> try.  I literally have to vo+Right arrow to the store radio button, then
>>> VO+Space on it.  Incredibly, incredibly! clunky!
>>> 
>>> Is anyone else seeing this stuff?
>>> 
>>> Chris.
>>> 
>>> --
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac
>>> Visionaries list.
>>> 
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>>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the
>>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>> 
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>>> Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>> 
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Re: in public defense of those who beta test Apple software

[Danny Noonan]

Mail for me is now so much better. Reading threads is a smooth one handed 
option and I'm not even quite so upset about 3 finger tap for preview. That 
breaks the one hand option but still. Bring back hints preview for me and keep 
3 finger tap as well so when I turn off hints in a fit of rage when apple add 
oral hints adds in iOS 15. 
I wait until I decide on changes or i'de always be cranky boy. 

Danny

Sent from my iPhone

> On 17 Sep. 2016, at 6:23 am, Phil Halton  wrote:
> 
> I'm the one who originally complained about the changes in mail app but now 
> that I've had a chance to work with it, and have found the messages router 
> feature as well as the ability to unpack the thread, I really like the what 
> they've done with it.
> 
> Sent from my IPhone
> 
> 
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 3:34 PM, christopher hallsworth 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Can I speak up here as well?
>> 
>> I beta tested iOS 10 right from the very beginning, developer beta 1. How it 
>> was, Apple Developer Relations contacted me over a bug report I sent two 
>> years ago. Yes, two years ago. It was in relation to Braille Screen Input 
>> and contracted Braille. I reported then that there was absolutely no typing 
>> feedback when switching to contracted Braille input. After assuring me that 
>> they were looking for ideas, they finally told me that character feedback 
>> was turned off in all cases, and it was released like that. I was 
>> disappointed, but thought “hey, at least I tried”. So you can imagine the 
>> shock I felt when receiving that. So thought “hey, let’s check this out and 
>> see what I think?” And wow, it was amazing to see they finally added typing 
>> feedback to contracted Braille input. Since I was generally happy with the 
>> implementation, I simply replied to the report and resolving the bug report. 
>> Future betas of iOS 10 I saw small, but significant, changes, which were for 
>> the better. I’m not going to say the changes here, since even the public 
>> beta testers never saw them. They got changed probably in developer beta 2 
>> at least.
>> 
>> So please, give us credit where it’s due of course, and don’t blame it all 
>> on Apple. Thank you.
>> 
>> 
>>> On 16 Sep 2016, at 03:15, Ray Foret jr  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I may have only tested the public betas, but, I’m totally going to stand 
>>> for Chris and the other Devs here who were always one step ahead of me.  IF 
>>> not for their pioneering work on all this. what we have now might:  and 
>>> indeed would be, much much more seriously flawed.  I think we who tested 
>>> the public betas have something to say to this also, for you see, I was one 
>>> of them and continue to be.  Now, I want to say something else that I feel 
>>> is in connection with all this.  Some say we who test the public betas can 
>>> in fact discuss what we find in public before the final release.  You could 
>>> not be more in error!!!  Obviously, you don’t know what you are  talking 
>>> about.  Have you bothered to read the terms of agreement that all beta 
>>> testers, (dev and public alike) must agree to?  No?  Well, permit me to 
>>> summarize them for you.  We cannot say a thing about what we are finding.  
>>> We’re strictly forbidden to show you non testers in any way what it is we 
>>> are working on.  If you think you have so much to say, you either pay the 
>>> developer fee or test the public beta.  Until then, shut up!  I’m 
>>> coming out here in such strong defense of dev and public beta testers 
>>> because I have gone through just about an entire summer of putting up with 
>>> idiotic fools whoo have NO respect for non disclosure agreements and the 
>>> seriousness with which such things MUST be taken.  True, not everyone on 
>>> this list is like that:  in fact, I suspect that most on this particular 
>>> list understand my point of view on this matter.  But on VORail, (yes I am 
>>> being specific about the place where most of this stupidity lives) it 
>>> seemed to reign supreme.  I’m sure I speak for Chris and the other devs and 
>>> for the other public beta testers here when I say that when we say we 
>>> cannot discuss something, you’d damn well better take us seriously because 
>>> we damn well take Apple’s non disclosure agreements very very seriously.  
>>> If stupid sighted people on podcasts can’t be bother to take such things 
>>> seriously and go  blabbing about what they find, that’s their problem.  
>>> Also, frankly, it’s not much help to us if Apple doesn’t enforce their own 
>>> non disclosure agreements.  Well, let the rest blab if they want to:  I, 
>>> for my part, will NOT.  
>>> Sent from my Mac, The only computer with full accessibility for the blind 
>>> built-in
>>> 
>>> Sincerely, The Constantly Barefooted Ray
>>> Still a very happy Mac, Verizon Wireless iPhone6+ and Apple TV user!
>>> 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 8:26 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland 
  wrote:
 
 Excuse me, Cheree.  that was profoundly disrespectful, not to m

Re: Search tab in iOS app store seems totally busted!

[Jenine Stanley]

No trouble here with a 6S either. Just tried to break it too and nothing out of 
the ordinary happened. tried swiping, touching and sliding around the screen to 
find things. all worked. Doesn’t mean it’s not happening but it’s not happening 
here. 
Jenine Stanley
dragonwalke...@gmail.com



> On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:26 PM, Danny Noonan  wrote:
> 
> Perhaps it's evice specific as I'm having no trouble on my 6. 
> 
> Danny
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On 17 Sep. 2016, at 4:45 am, don bishop  > wrote:
> 
>> Yes, I've noticed that too.  
>> 
>> Don  
>> 
>> 
>> - Original Message -
>> From: Christopher-Mark Gilland  > >
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> Date: Friday, September 16, 2016 11:43 am
>> Subject: Search tab in iOS app store seems totally busted!
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> So... When I go, in iOS10 to the app store, then to the search tab, I only 
>>> some of the time now see my search box at the top of the screen.  If I do 
>>> see it, I double tap.  The keyboard comes up, but if I then flick back up 
>>> to the text box, it doesn't say is editting.  If I try using Siri to 
>>> dictate, nothing gets inserted into the box.  If I manually type my query 
>>> in, it'll then type in the box, but the search button isn't showing at the 
>>> bottom of the keyboard.  in fact, as soon as I put my finger in the bottom 
>>> right quadrant of the screen to tap search, the keyboard disappears 
>>> entirely, and I land on the update tab instead.  I know I quote, need to 
>>> just move my finger up a little bit.  Trust me, I am profoundly familiar 
>>> with the app store, and how it works.  I'm doing this 100% correctly, I 
>>> assure you beyond a doubt.
>>> 
>>> Plus, I have enough low vision to see what it's doing.  I'm definitely 
>>> doing it correctly.
>>> 
>>> The one time I somehow managed to get the search to carry out, mind you I 
>>> dono what the heck I did to do so, there were no results.  The key word I 
>>> searched for, just to see if I could make anything come up, not that I was 
>>> gonna download it was, Pokimon G.  No results came up after doing the 
>>> search.  Further, when I clicked clear search after the search field, it 
>>> wouldn't clear out what I typed.
>>> 
>>> I've rebooted the phone.  NO good.  I disconnected and reconnected to my 
>>> wifi.  No good.  I tried on cellular.  No good.  I even factory reset the 
>>> phone.  NO good, and no, after doing so, I didn't restore from a backup.  I 
>>> don't do that with major updates like this.  I just start over clean.
>>> 
>>> It wasn't doing this earlier this morning,  and what's weirded on the mac 
>>> is, when I open ITunes, I can't even get to the store anymore with 
>>> command+Shift+Have in the update that just came out.  It bwonks at me, if I 
>>> try.  I literally have to vo+Right arrow to the store radio button, then 
>>> VO+Space on it.  Incredibly, incredibly! clunky!
>>> 
>>> Is anyone else seeing this stuff?
>>> 
>>> Chris.
>>> - 
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>>> 
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
>>> or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>> 
>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara 
>>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
>>> 
>>> --- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
>>> .
>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> .
>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries 
>>> .
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout 
>>> .
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
>> 
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>> 
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara 
>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
>> 
>> 
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> http://www.

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[David Chittenden]

Scott,

The angle gestures are still there. We upgrade whenever a new release comes out.

The nice thing about stock Android is, all of the gestures commands are 
customisable. In other words, they can be reassigned. Unfortunately, there are 
no gestures of more than two fingers. According to Jonathan Mosen, Google 
claims this is to support older devices that only support two finger touch 
input.

So, one can have basic, or higher end commands on the easier gestures.

As I already stated, when Google replaces the angle gestures with something a 
blind person can perform easily (such as an arc), I will get a stock Android 
smartphone and retire my older iPhone from my business line: There are things 
Android does which I like, and it is more customisable. Of course, I will keep 
my confidential paperwork on my Apple devices. Google is just too unsecure.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 17/09/2016, at 09:33, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> David, isn’t the new version of Talkback 5.x able to have redefinable 
> gestures?
> 
> I’m good at gestures too unfortunately it’s usually the one involving the 
> middle finger.
> 
> ;)
> 
> I thought I read though the right angles are redefinable.  I hated them as 
> well, never got the hang.
> 
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:58 PM, David Chittenden  wrote:
>> 
>> I have an LG Nexus 9 (Google Android) tablet which runs stock Android. The 
>> right angle gestures are the current downfall of that system. I am very good 
>> at performing gestures. With the right-angle gestures, one must draw a 
>> straight horrizontal or vertical line, followed by a straight line which is 
>> a right-angle turn at the end of the first line. The complete gesture must 
>> be drawn within half a second, and must be quite precise. Sighted people do 
>> this without any difficulty. I am now able to do it successfully about 1/3 
>> the time, after a couple months of practice. If Google did arcs rather than 
>> right angles, it would work without much difficulty, and I would use a stock 
>> Android as my second phone, rather than two iPhones.
>> 
>> Samsung rewrote the interface with Speech Assist and took out the angle 
>> gestures. They put in more multiple finger commands. However, their 
>> interface is not-at-all customisable, and it does not provide as many 
>> advanced features as voiceover. Oh, and they have a recent history of 
>> current devices lighting up people's lives.
>> 
>> Now, if any of the TALKBack crowd wish to give me useable strategies for 
>> performing angle commands, without vision, and it being precise more than 
>> 95% of the time, I will definitely listen, practice, and work more with 
>> Android. I believe in multiple accessible general market products, but the 
>> interface must be usable.
>> 
>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On 16/09/2016, at 23:43, Scott Granados  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Simon, I like your humor buddy.;)
>>> 
>>> Well played sir.
>>> 
 On Sep 16, 2016, at 3:50 AM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
 
 Scott,
 
 Um, that type of prostate exam would probably be ok, because it's now done 
 with a blood test, so captain hook would be able to help get the blood out!
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
 [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
 Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 1:46 PM
 To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
 Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
 
 Michael you’re right and just try using Android.  It’s like getting a 
 prostate exam from Captain Hook.
 
 
 
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 9:40 PM, michael babcock 
>  wrote:
> 
> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, 
> means nothing honestly.
> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
> pay more.
> What is a Mac in most cases?
> A PC…
> A Personal Computer …
> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes 
> will continue paying for them.
> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing 
> there updates, and just had to say, so what… Switch to android, back to a 
> Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that phone?), windows 10 touch 
> phone, etc.
> #choices.
> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis 
> released helped me a lot.
> Thanks for reading my rant.
> Best.
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 

Re: IOS10 Mail app changes

[David Chittenden]

I, on the other hand, love threaded mail, now that I have figured out how it 
works.

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone

> On 17/09/2016, at 09:41, Donna Goodin  wrote:
> 
> I'm liking IOS 10, as well, though I don't use threaded view in Mail.
> Cheers,
> Donna
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 4:40 PM, Simon Fogarty  wrote:
>> 
>> Personally I think this is probly one of the most stable IOS updates I have 
>> seen.
>>  
>> I haven’t found any of the issues with mail others are reporting.
>>  
>> Although I wasn’t able to move a couple of emails from one in box to another 
>> location in a second mail account, but hell it’s not a big issue,
>> Reporting the issues to apple goes along way to getting things corrected 
>> quickly and they do appreciate it.
>>  
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
>> Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 11:35 PM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
>>  
>> You know what would be nice too, is if we were less anal about the public 
>> beta and discussed these major changes openly so people aren’t surprised.  
>> The Cheree’s of the world could elect not to update for example until a 
>> satisfactory alternative presents itself or not update at all putting the 
>> control in their hands instead of jumping in with out all the facts to make 
>> an informed decision.
>>  
>> It would also be nice if Apple could unbundle the security updates from the 
>> OS updates so again folks not wanting to update could apply security patches 
>> and stay safe with out introducing new features.  That might undo some of 
>> the apple advantage though but I’m definitely not against putting more 
>> choice in to the hands of the end user.
>>  
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 11:13 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
>>  
>>  I think where Apple could do better would be in releasing some 
>> documentation regarding how voiceover users are supposed to deal with things 
>> that have substantially changed. I don't agree that things have to stay the 
>> same. And David's discussion of how to deal with the email was very good. I 
>> think that Apple should do that. I also think that Apple should update their 
>> documentation on commands, Bluetooth, braille display etc. One of the things 
>> about making a commitment to accessibility is to realize that for people who 
>> can. See, dealing with the changes to the interface may be a lot easier then 
>> for people who can't. That's why they need to employ people who get that, 
>> since your average designer doesn't. There are a lot of things that become 
>> immediately clear decided people because they can take in the entire 
>> interface at once and understand how to deal with it. That's not so easy if 
>> you can't do that.
>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:47 PM, Cheree Heppe  wrote:
>> 
>> That's nonsense.
>> I pay exactly the same amount for my Apple products as anyone else.
>> Apple claims universal design.
>> When design changes or functional alterations lose the way, that isn't about 
>> somebody pays more, that's about somebody misunderstanding universal design.
>> Luckily, not all sighted people think as you and some others have quoted, or 
>> the disabled and blind would still be sitting by coal scuttles and weaving 
>> baskets to the tune of you are a minority and don't count.
>> Drop the doctored rehab drivel and embrace universal design, not change for 
>> its own sake.
>>  
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 18:40, michael babcock  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Apple doesn’t make there products and services to work for everyone.
>> All this talking about leaving because you don’t like there updates, means 
>> nothing honestly.
>> Apple is doing there marketing the right way; they aren’t in the everyone 
>> business and the people who do like there products and services obviously 
>> pay more.
>> What is a Mac in most cases?
>> A PC…
>> A Personal Computer … 
>> But apple markets a Mac as a Mac and the people who want there changes will 
>> continue paying for them.
>> I’ve seen a few people say that they don’t like the way apple is doing there 
>> updates, and just had to say, so what…
>> Switch to android, back to a Nokia N82, (Side note do they still make that 
>> phone?), windows 10 touch phone, etc.
>> #choices.
>> And regarding the new mail problem, yes i complained to a friend that i 
>> couldn’t use preview in my mail and listen to part of the messages. He 
>> didn’t know how to get this working, however the podcast AppleVis released 
>> helped me a lot.
>> Thanks for reading my rant.
>> Best.
>> 
>> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 6:30 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>>  
>>  Change is counterproductive? Perhaps to some who have a hard time adapting 
>> to change. But, at the end of each day, change is inevitable. If that is 
>> what you deem as force, well, the solution 

Re: Search tab in iOS app store seems totally busted!

[Helga Schreiber]

hey Pris, I am experiencing the same thing that you are at the search box on 
the App Store.  I am using iOS 10. when I type something on the search box, I 
am not able to delete text  it with my Bluetooth keyboard or the delete key on 
the on-screen keyboard . period that's very weird period I look forward in 
hearing from you soon. thanks so much and God bless :-)

  Helga Schreiber 
Group Moderator  
 
  for the IPad help for the blind 
 
ipadhelpfortheblind+subscr...@groups.io  

Member of National Federation of the Blind and Florida Association of Blind 
Students.
Member of the International Networkers Team (INT).
Independent Entrepreneur of the Company 4Life Research.
Phone:  (561) 706-5950 
Email: helga.schreibe...@gmail.com 
Skype: helga.schreiber26 
4Life Website: http://helgaschreiber.my4life.com/1/default.aspx 
INT Website: http://int4life.com/ 

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever 
believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16 
Sent from my iPhone 6S running IOS 10

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:26 PM, Danny Noonan  wrote:
> 
> Perhaps it's evice specific as I'm having no trouble on my 6. 
> 
> Danny
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 17 Sep. 2016, at 4:45 am, don bishop  wrote:
>> 
>> Yes, I've noticed that too.  
>> 
>> Don  
>> 
>> 
>> - Original Message -
>> From: Christopher-Mark Gilland  
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Date: Friday, September 16, 2016 11:43 am
>> Subject: Search tab in iOS app store seems totally busted!
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> So... When I go, in iOS10 to the app store, then to the search tab, I only 
>>> some of the time now see my search box at the top of the screen.  If I do 
>>> see it, I double tap.  The keyboard comes up, but if I then flick back up 
>>> to the text box, it doesn't say is editting.  If I try using Siri to 
>>> dictate, nothing gets inserted into the box.  If I manually type my query 
>>> in, it'll then type in the box, but the search button isn't showing at the 
>>> bottom of the keyboard.  in fact, as soon as I put my finger in the bottom 
>>> right quadrant of the screen to tap search, the keyboard disappears 
>>> entirely, and I land on the update tab instead.  I know I quote, need to 
>>> just move my finger up a little bit.  Trust me, I am profoundly familiar 
>>> with the app store, and how it works.  I'm doing this 100% correctly, I 
>>> assure you beyond a doubt.
>>> 
>>> Plus, I have enough low vision to see what it's doing.  I'm definitely 
>>> doing it correctly.
>>> 
>>> The one time I somehow managed to get the search to carry out, mind you I 
>>> dono what the heck I did to do so, there were no results.  The key word I 
>>> searched for, just to see if I could make anything come up, not that I was 
>>> gonna download it was, Pokimon G.  No results came up after doing the 
>>> search.  Further, when I clicked clear search after the search field, it 
>>> wouldn't clear out what I typed.
>>> 
>>> I've rebooted the phone.  NO good.  I disconnected and reconnected to my 
>>> wifi.  No good.  I tried on cellular.  No good.  I even factory reset the 
>>> phone.  NO good, and no, after doing so, I didn't restore from a backup.  I 
>>> don't do that with major updates like this.  I just start over clean.
>>> 
>>> It wasn't doing this earlier this morning,  and what's weirded on the mac 
>>> is, when I open ITunes, I can't even get to the store anymore with 
>>> command+Shift+Have in the update that just came out.  It bwonks at me, if I 
>>> try.  I literally have to vo+Right arrow to the store radio button, then 
>>> VO+Space on it.  Incredibly, incredibly! clunky!
>>> 
>>> Is anyone else seeing this stuff?
>>> 
>>> Chris.
>>> - 
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>>> 
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
>>> or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>> 
>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara 
>>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>> 
>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
>>> --- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
>> 
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>> you feel that a member's pos

Re: Search tab in iOS app store seems totally busted!

[Mary Otten]

I reported having problems with this several days ago. I just looked at it now, 
and it is working fine. Obviously, there is something intermittent and flaky 
going on.
Mary


Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 3:55 PM, Jenine Stanley  wrote:
> 
> No trouble here with a 6S either. Just tried to break it too and nothing out 
> of the ordinary happened. tried swiping, touching and sliding around the 
> screen to find things. all worked. Doesn’t mean it’s not happening but it’s 
> not happening here. 
> Jenine Stanley
> dragonwalke...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 6:26 PM, Danny Noonan  wrote:
>> 
>> Perhaps it's evice specific as I'm having no trouble on my 6. 
>> 
>> Danny
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On 17 Sep. 2016, at 4:45 am, don bishop  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Yes, I've noticed that too.  
>>> 
>>> Don  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: Christopher-Mark Gilland  
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>> Date: Friday, September 16, 2016 11:43 am
>>> Subject: Search tab in iOS app store seems totally busted!
>>> 
 
 
 So... When I go, in iOS10 to the app store, then to the search tab, I only 
 some of the time now see my search box at the top of the screen.  If I do 
 see it, I double tap.  The keyboard comes up, but if I then flick back up 
 to the text box, it doesn't say is editting.  If I try using Siri to 
 dictate, nothing gets inserted into the box.  If I manually type my query 
 in, it'll then type in the box, but the search button isn't showing at the 
 bottom of the keyboard.  in fact, as soon as I put my finger in the bottom 
 right quadrant of the screen to tap search, the keyboard disappears 
 entirely, and I land on the update tab instead.  I know I quote, need to 
 just move my finger up a little bit.  Trust me, I am profoundly familiar 
 with the app store, and how it works.  I'm doing this 100% correctly, I 
 assure you beyond a doubt.
 
 Plus, I have enough low vision to see what it's doing.  I'm definitely 
 doing it correctly.
 
 The one time I somehow managed to get the search to carry out, mind you I 
 dono what the heck I did to do so, there were no results.  The key word I 
 searched for, just to see if I could make anything come up, not that I was 
 gonna download it was, Pokimon G.  No results came up after doing the 
 search.  Further, when I clicked clear search after the search field, it 
 wouldn't clear out what I typed.
 
 I've rebooted the phone.  NO good.  I disconnected and reconnected to my 
 wifi.  No good.  I tried on cellular.  No good.  I even factory reset the 
 phone.  NO good, and no, after doing so, I didn't restore from a backup.  
 I don't do that with major updates like this.  I just start over clean.
 
 It wasn't doing this earlier this morning,  and what's weirded on the mac 
 is, when I open ITunes, I can't even get to the store anymore with 
 command+Shift+Have in the update that just came out.  It bwonks at me, if 
 I try.  I literally have to vo+Right arrow to the store radio button, then 
 VO+Space on it.  Incredibly, incredibly! clunky!
 
 Is anyone else seeing this stuff?
 
 Chris.
 - 
 The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
 Visionaries list.
 
 If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or 
 if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the 
 owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
 
 Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara 
 Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
 
 The archives for this list can be searched at:
 http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
 --- 
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
 "MacVisionaries" group.
 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
 email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
 To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
 Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
 For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>>> 
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
>>> or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>> 
>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara 
>>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>> 
>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
>>> --- 
>>> You received th

"Heading not found" when it should be in the music app

[Mary Otten]

I have found the following to be true on both my iPhone 6s and my iPad mini 
two. This is running iOS 10. If you open the music app you are placed in my 
library. Go to artists. In the phone, that's easy, just double tap on the 
artists button. On the iPad, you have to deal with a pop up. But once you're 
there, you will have a listing in a long column of all of the artists in your 
library.  they are in alphabetical order, and each letter of the alphabet is a 
heading, a, B, C, etc. However, if you try to navigate by heading by setting 
the appropriate item in the rotor and flicking down, you are  unhelpfully 
informed that there aren't any headings. On the phone, I couldn't find the 
table index at all. On my iPad, I did a three finger flick up to the second 
page of artist listings, and found a table index there, which worked. But I 
would frankly preferred to just flick I headings. I wonder why this is not 
working. Seems like it should.
Mary


Sent from my iPhone

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Iphone 7+ unbox brief video

[Scott Granados]

Hi all, here’s something my assistant Chris cooked up.  (Chris is my Son who 
works for me)

It’s a brief video, covers what’s in the box and compares next to last years 
model.  I will do a much more audio focused presentation after dinner for folks 
wanting to hear in more detail what’s in the box with descriptive audio.  This 
will get you started though.  While you’re there check out the channel, I have 
several drone videos (all visual unfortunately) (then some descriptive drone 
videos that cover some of the technical aspects, I have some rocket launches 
from model rocketry and many other hobby / remote control related videos 
including my 1/3rd scale car that’s gas powered, remote controlled and breaks 
100 MPH.  If you play the two stage rocket launch you can hear Chris and I 
trying to figure out an electrical problem and the rocket launching and me 
yelling as it lights off in our faces haha, good times.

Here’s the apple iPhone related link though, enjoy and more to come.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs9Auc2OpCc&feature=youtu.be 

 


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Re: "Heading not found" when it should be in the music app

[Donna Goodin]

I can confirm this
Cheers,
Donna

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 16, 2016, at 7:24 PM, Mary Otten  wrote:
> 
> I have found the following to be true on both my iPhone 6s and my iPad mini 
> two. This is running iOS 10. If you open the music app you are placed in my 
> library. Go to artists. In the phone, that's easy, just double tap on the 
> artists button. On the iPad, you have to deal with a pop up. But once you're 
> there, you will have a listing in a long column of all of the artists in your 
> library.  they are in alphabetical order, and each letter of the alphabet is 
> a heading, a, B, C, etc. However, if you try to navigate by heading by 
> setting the appropriate item in the rotor and flicking down, you are  
> unhelpfully informed that there aren't any headings. On the phone, I couldn't 
> find the table index at all. On my iPad, I did a three finger flick up to the 
> second page of artist listings, and found a table index there, which worked. 
> But I would frankly preferred to just flick I headings. I wonder why this is 
> not working. Seems like it should.
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
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> list.
> 
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> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
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Apple TV

[Brandon A. Olivares]

Sorry for the vague subject. I have a few questions, as I just got the Apple TV 
4th generation.

First, how do you check the battery level of the remote? Not finding a way so 
far.

Second, in Netflix, the audio doesn’t seem to be so loud. Is it because of 
Voiceover? Even when I have the volume up 100%, Voiceover is very loud, but the 
audio is only moderately loud. Any idea why?

Thanks,
Brandon

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