Re: Nokia and MS
Hi, I think the point of view of Niels is the best way, but with some considerations. I would like: - an open platform - based on (de facto) standards - the posibility of earning money with it, so no a geek/exclusive/niche platform In this moment Meego is out of my consideratons. We have been a kind of beta testers with the N900, so I don't want to repeat. My previous smarthphone was a Windows Mobile 2003 HTC Blueangel. I hated the lack of support of the supplier and Microsoft, and I was forced to benefit of the hacking efforts at xda-developers to get it phone working properly, and helped others to do so. But doing the work for Microsoft and being paid with threats was not pleasant. So I decided to start playing with Linux. I supposse that most of us remember, Angstrom, handhelds.org, Qtopia (yes, Qt), Open Moko, etc. It was great, but always a marginal platform for geeks. I think that a good path is to mix the goods of Meego and Maemo. That is: - development tools: support both Qt and GTK+, enhance Java support (including Dalvik, if posible) - replace closed parts of Maemo with open pieces. Don't solve bugs of closed parts to force hacking if necessari (I'm volunteer for that) - evolve Maemo to a kind of Meego. Meego is a good design, IMO. But I insist, don't try to get Meego working, in this moment it is better to get Maemo working well, and not to reinvent the wheel. - make Maemo feasible on other platforms - create a kind of economical ecosytem for this oh!Maemo, so people can use it for their phones (paying?), embedded systems, buy gadgets, Apps, etc. (opps, lawsuits?). Please, don't make the same mistakes of OpenMoko, Angstrom, and others. I will maintain my N900 until it gets broken. It is not perfect hardware, it is not perfect sofware, but it is the best sum of both. Àngel Isn't what you say here effectively the choice between two dead horses? even if Intel wants to make Atom/Moorestown based mobiles a reality I have my strong doubts in them. And if I am right they will never produce a real world Intel based handset which would then, without Nokia, make MeeGo's mobile UX dispensable - and under cost pressure it will be canceled, just the same way as they just canceled the netbook UX (with braindead reasoning but that's another story). I would then rather choose the horse/platform with most and best experience (Maemo5) instead of waiting for the other dead horse to grow beyond infantility. I think we now have the incredible chance of having a pretty mature platform (Maemo5) at hand in the open which we, the community, can further develop and extend without the need for any manufacturer support. We have devices and we have the platform. What else does it take? Concerning MeeGo I am extremely sceptical about its further development and almost as sceptical for Qt's future too. What will happen to Qt if Nokia reduces its effort into it? Nobody knows. But with GTK+ it is quite the contrary. GTK+ is a community effort from the early beginning and has an active community further developing it. Slower than Qt, admittedly, but it is working out. What happens when large companies dump gigabytes of sourcecode into the open has been proven a lot of times already - in 90% of cases the source starts to bit-rot. So I think we should free as much of Maemo5 as possible(*), put it into the open and ask Nokia for a guarantee of keeping the internet platforms (namely *.maemo.org) up and running or at least give enough time to mirror them to some other hosting service. And then make Maemo5 *the* true open source mobile platform. There are other devices evolving which could need it - google for GTA04 for example. And once it has been ported to another device (for the timebeing I am not aware of any Maemo port to non-Nokia hardware) other manufacturers will surely jump - not everyone wants Android but it is currently the most portable and featureful platform. We could change that. (*) I am unsure how much of Maemo5 Fremantle is still closed. As far as I know it still contains quite some closed source components. A list of closed components would be good to have BTW... -- * Angel F. Perles Ivars Departament d'Informàtica de Sistemes i Computadors - DISCA Universitat Politècnica de València - E.U.Informàtica Cami de Vera s/n. 46022-Valencia Edifici 1G Despatx 2S-13 e-mail: aper...@disca.upv.es Telf.+34 963877007 Ext. 75775 Fax.+34 963877579 http://www.disca.upv.es/aperles ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Nokia and MS
On 13 February 2011 22:59, Jeremiah C. Foster jerem...@jeremiahfoster.comwrote: On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 09:01:23PM +0100, Klaus Umbach wrote: On 11.02.11 13:25, Demetris wrote: How does this affect the future of Maemo on Nokia's devices? Maemo is dead and Meego will die, too. Don't be so sure. MeeGo is a set of vertical Linux distros. There are other phone manufacturers interested in the Handset vertical, car companies in the IVI vertical, and there is some serious traction in the TV vertical. MeeGo is hosted at the Linux Foundation, so it has nothing to do with Nokia in the end. That's for sure, however I definitely won't expect MeeGo evolving too much (at all?) within Nokia from now on. There are loads of speculations floating around since Friday and in fact we all don't know what future is going to bring us but in my eyes by coupling with Microsoft, Nokia has effectively killed off MeeGo internally - whether we like it or not. Even if the community supports Maemo/Meego, there will be no new hardware and one day my n900 will be broken... Nokia claims to be releasing a MeeGo device this year. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if that was *the last* MeeGo device from Nokia, too. I am very sceptical about all that and don't really buy that redefintion of MeeGo within Nokia as a learning platform for future disruptions. Even if it somehow survives within Nokia as a side project for geeks, it won't receive serious support, just as Maemo never did. On top of that, Techcrunch speculates [1] that MeeGo device this year is going to be *keyboard-less* N9-01 model, which makes me personally about 98.83% less interested in taking it. Having said that, I'd rather back the community effort to bring the best MeeGo experience to N900 rather than focusing on developing Maemo 5 further (however I appreciate that) which is officially dead anyway and its community is only going to shrink from now on. [1] http://eu.techcrunch.com/2011/02/12/intel-kept-in-the-dark-over-nokia%E2%80%99s-meego-plans-operators-reject-first-device/ -- Dawid 'evad' Lorenz * http://dawid.lorenz.co null:// I haven't lost my mind - it's backed up on disk somewhere ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Nokia and MS
Am 14.02.2011 11:54, schrieb Dawid Lorenz: On 13 February 2011 22:59, Jeremiah C. Foster jerem...@jeremiahfoster.com mailto:jerem...@jeremiahfoster.com wrote: On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 09:01:23PM +0100, Klaus Umbach wrote: Even if the community supports Maemo/Meego, there will be no new hardware and one day my n900 will be broken... Nokia claims to be releasing a MeeGo device this year. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if that was *the last* MeeGo device from Nokia, too. +1 I am very sceptical about all that and don't really buy that redefintion of MeeGo within Nokia as a learning platform for future disruptions. Even if it somehow survives within Nokia as a side project for geeks, it won't receive serious support, just as Maemo never did. Well, having been involved in the Maemo development a little I have to disagree here. Nokia put very significant effort in Maemo and supporting it. But you are right to some extend, the effort they put into it did not lead to as much outside visibility as it would have deserved. On top of that, Techcrunch speculates [1] that MeeGo device this year is going to be *keyboard-less* N9-01 model, which makes me personally about 98.83% less interested in taking it. Having said that, I'd rather back the community effort to bring the best MeeGo experience to N900 rather than focusing on developing Maemo 5 further (however I appreciate that) which is officially dead anyway and its community is only going to shrink from now on. Isn't what you say here effectively the choice between two dead horses? even if Intel wants to make Atom/Moorestown based mobiles a reality I have my strong doubts in them. And if I am right they will never produce a real world Intel based handset which would then, without Nokia, make MeeGo's mobile UX dispensable - and under cost pressure it will be canceled, just the same way as they just canceled the netbook UX (with braindead reasoning but that's another story). I would then rather choose the horse/platform with most and best experience (Maemo5) instead of waiting for the other dead horse to grow beyond infantility. I think we now have the incredible chance of having a pretty mature platform (Maemo5) at hand in the open which we, the community, can further develop and extend without the need for any manufacturer support. We have devices and we have the platform. What else does it take? Concerning MeeGo I am extremely sceptical about its further development and almost as sceptical for Qt's future too. What will happen to Qt if Nokia reduces its effort into it? Nobody knows. But with GTK+ it is quite the contrary. GTK+ is a community effort from the early beginning and has an active community further developing it. Slower than Qt, admittedly, but it is working out. What happens when large companies dump gigabytes of sourcecode into the open has been proven a lot of times already - in 90% of cases the source starts to bit-rot. So I think we should free as much of Maemo5 as possible(*), put it into the open and ask Nokia for a guarantee of keeping the internet platforms (namely *.maemo.org) up and running or at least give enough time to mirror them to some other hosting service. And then make Maemo5 *the* true open source mobile platform. There are other devices evolving which could need it - google for GTA04 for example. And once it has been ported to another device (for the timebeing I am not aware of any Maemo port to non-Nokia hardware) other manufacturers will surely jump - not everyone wants Android but it is currently the most portable and featureful platform. We could change that. (*) I am unsure how much of Maemo5 Fremantle is still closed. As far as I know it still contains quite some closed source components. A list of closed components would be good to have BTW... Dawid 'evad' Lorenz * http://dawid.lorenz.co http://dawid.lorenz.co/ Cheers nils -- kernel concepts GbRTel: +49-271-771091-12 Sieghuetter Hauptweg 48 D-57072 Siegen Mob: +49-176-21024535 http://www.kernelconcepts.de ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Nokia and MS
Am 14.02.2011 14:27, schrieb Hämäläinen Kimmo: On Mon, 2011-02-14 at 13:07 +0100, ext Nils Faerber wrote: ... I am very sceptical about all that and don't really buy that redefintion of MeeGo within Nokia as a learning platform for future disruptions. Even if it somehow survives within Nokia as a side project for geeks, it won't receive serious support, just as Maemo never did. I heard Intel is still working on future MeeGo devices. Sure, I guess they really are but I doubt that any of them will be picked up by a manufacturer so that John Doe open source developer can actually buy one in their home country. The first Nokia 770 tablets were even problematic to get in some areas of the globe. (*) I am unsure how much of Maemo5 Fremantle is still closed. As far as I know it still contains quite some closed source components. A list of closed components would be good to have BTW... Here is a list, dunno how up-to-date, though: http://wiki.maemo.org/Why_the_closed_packages Ah, thanks for the pointer! At least a good start! -Kimmo Cheers nils -- kernel concepts GbRTel: +49-271-771091-12 Sieghuetter Hauptweg 48 D-57072 Siegen Mob: +49-176-21024535 http://www.kernelconcepts.de ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Nokia and MS
Hi, Hämäläinen Kimmo wrote: On Mon, 2011-02-14 at 13:07 +0100, ext Nils Faerber wrote: ... I am very sceptical about all that and don't really buy that redefintion of MeeGo within Nokia as a learning platform for future disruptions. Even if it somehow survives within Nokia as a side project for geeks, it won't receive serious support, just as Maemo never did. I heard Intel is still working on future MeeGo devices. Yes! I imagine that Intel will also be happy to see Atom chips in smartphones in the near future, and will be happy to see a good clean reference smartphone UX available. The question is whether we'll get one, and whether Nokia will open up all of the UX app work they're doing on top of the MeeGo stack once the device is on the market. If that happens, and anyone can take MeeGo put it on a phone in the same way they can with Android, the handset UX has a small but fighting chance. My understanding of Nokia's position, put simply, is We don't think there's a future in MeeGo on smartphones, but we're not sure, so we're going to hedge our bets and keep our hand in. Also, we signed a big partnership agreement to do MeeGo, and backing out of it now would cost us a ton of money. We'll do the minimum that the partnership requires. On the other hand, I still don't find it interesting to talk about Nokia's MeeGo strategy, but I *do* think it's useful to discuss the post-Elopocalyse MeeGo strategy. Cheers, Dave. -- Email: dne...@maemo.org Jabber: bo...@jabber.org ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Nokia and MS
Yes, both is dead! When I bought my 770 five or six years ago, I hoped for a tablet beeing the direction of development. Obviously it wasn't and I had to buy an iPad last year. And immediately I loved the toolchain, I always missed for my N770, N800, N810, N900. From an application developers point of view maemo was awfull! In october I thought about using QT to target some Symbian devices, only to find opengl not beeing supported! It is in the QT preview from last month. To little to late! I know the Microsoft ecosystem for PC (that seems to be the word right now) from 15 years ago, and it was much better than what maemo offers today. From an application developers point of view the decision might not be to bad. But I have to buy windows 7:-( Detlef Am Freitag, den 11.02.2011, 21:01 +0100 schrieb Klaus Umbach: On 11.02.11 13:25, Demetris wrote: How does this affect the future of Maemo on Nokia's devices? Maemo is dead and Meego will die, too. Although Maemo is the plattform, that suits my personal needs best of all, I lost hope, there will be a successor to my N900. I think I just give up and get an android-phone with a keyboard and learn Java... Even if the community supports Maemo/Meego, there will be no new hardware and one day my n900 will be broken... Why will Meego die? Because Intel doesn't care! They want to sell Hardware, and will use Android, too. This is a sad day for us, but at least a happy day for the Egyptions! (the term Maemobarak just came to my mind, but doesn't really make sense...) - Klaus ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Nokia and MS
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 09:01:23PM +0100, Klaus Umbach wrote: On 11.02.11 13:25, Demetris wrote: How does this affect the future of Maemo on Nokia's devices? Maemo is dead and Meego will die, too. Don't be so sure. MeeGo is a set of vertical Linux distros. There are other phone manufacturers interested in the Handset vertical, car companies in the IVI vertical, and there is some serious traction in the TV vertical. MeeGo is hosted at the Linux Foundation, so it has nothing to do with Nokia in the end. This Nokia Microsoft hookup was designed to take the wind out of the sails of MeeGo, it is a serious contender to WinCE and Windows Phone. Although Maemo is the plattform, that suits my personal needs best of all, I lost hope, there will be a successor to my N900. I think I just give up and get an android-phone with a keyboard and learn Java... heh, then you'll be party to the Oracle lawsuit. Plus, there are other languages you can use on Android aside from the Dalvik Java dialect. Even if the community supports Maemo/Meego, there will be no new hardware and one day my n900 will be broken... Nokia claims to be releasing a MeeGo device this year. Why will Meego die? Because Intel doesn't care! They want to sell Hardware, and will use Android, too. Don't be silly. Intel has to _compete_ with Android - Android doesn't run on x86 hardware! MeeGo is Intel's embedded OS, and they are spending 100 million US to support just the IVI vertical. I think you're barking up the wrong tree here. This is a sad day for us, but at least a happy day for the Egyptions! (the term Maemobarak just came to my mind, but doesn't really make sense...) w00t! Jeremiah ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Nokia and MS
Jeremiah C. Foster wrote: On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 09:01:23PM +0100, Klaus Umbach wrote: Don't be silly. Intel has to _compete_ with Android - Android doesn't run on x86 hardware! MeeGo is Intel's embedded OS, and they are spending 100 million US to support just the IVI vertical. I think you're barking up the wrong tree here. Of course it can. http://www.android-x86.org/ ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Nokia and MS
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 9:30 PM, Sivan Greenberg si...@omniqueue.com wrote: On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 9:00 PM, Andre Klapper aklap...@openismus.com wrote: On Fri, 2011-02-11 at 13:25 -0500, Demetris wrote: How does this affect the future of Maemo on Nokia's devices? For quite a while the future has been MeeGo instead of Maemo, hence no changes to *Maemo* on Nokia devices. AFAIK it is in the hands of the Maemo community [council] no? I've three hats to wear: * Editor of this week's MWKN * Maemo Community Council member * Long-time Maemo enthusiast (five and a half years!) All three are intertwined, but this isn't the official position of the Maemo Community Council... Personally, the N900 represented a zenith for me. It was my first smartphone, but my fourth Maemo device. I hadn't realised at the time that it might be a Concorde moment[1]. MeeGo represented Nokia's new direction: an open, Linux-based, strategic vision. A range of devices from Nokia and other manufacturers. The Harmattan device would be the first: a flashier UI, smaller, faster, longer-lived battery-toting version of the N900. That's all I want: a smaller, lighter, faster version of the N900 running an evolution of Maemo 5 (primarily with some bugs fixed and more apps) which I could rely on all day. Nokia are now not going to deliver that entirely. It's *possible* the MeeGo device released this year might be interesting in the same way that the 770 was. But unlike the promise of the 770, I suspect it'll be stillborn. But there is a benefit to this that I can see. With no clear successor for the N900, some people will keep theirs for a bit longer, others - who may have been waiting for the Harmattan device - may now buy one. This means the Community SSU can have more users, more developers and more polish: http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU Already we've seen patches which fix hildon-desktop's CPU eating bug; make Modest work better offline; make Modest more conformant to standards; an improved TV-out control panel plugin; an improved notification LED control panel plugin and so on. Many of these also widen the system's support of portrait usage. We also already have improved development tools with the Qt SDK. Although there may not be a compelling new device, we have a reinvigorated platform. Maybe that's enough. Thanks, Andrew [1] For the uninitiated, a Concorde moment is one where mankind reaches the pinnacle of its achievement - ever since the Concorde no passenger aircraft has been built that can fly supersonic, and perhaps none ever will be. It is all downhill from there. -- http://bit.ly/g3c0PU -- Andrew Flegg -- mailto:and...@bleb.org | http://www.bleb.org/ Maemo Community Council member ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Nokia and MS
Andrew Flegg wrote: On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 9:30 PM, Sivan Greenberg si...@omniqueue.com wrote: On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 9:00 PM, Andre Klapper aklap...@openismus.com wrote: On Fri, 2011-02-11 at 13:25 -0500, Demetris wrote: How does this affect the future of Maemo on Nokia's devices? I've three hats to wear: I only have one hat. :( But there is a benefit to this that I can see. With no clear successor for the N900, some people will keep theirs for a bit longer, others - who may have been waiting for the Harmattan device - may now buy one. This means the Community SSU can have more users, more developers and more polish: http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU The graph on http://www.flickr.com/cameras/nokia/n900/ would seem to indicate that n900 use is crashing. From one point of view this is depressing. From another viewpoint, users who have 'upgraded' after 12 months with the n900 may dump their phones on ebay. And the non-hardcore were not to some degree the 'important' userbase for things like CSSU. And as it's a 'dead' platform, it may be fairly cheap. There are many semi-interested hackers that haven't been able to justify a comparatively expensive phone. Added to the promise of the CSSU, and related efforts, as well as the increasing potential freedom both from reverse engineered bits, as well as documentation that should have been found ages ago, but for various reasons hasn't been - and code 'newly' released for meego - the platform could be an interesting one for hackers for some time to come. Even in the absence of a nice shiny new meego phone. I had aspirations to fly concorde one day - if only once. The closest I came was hearing the sonic boom, as it zoomed on its last flight past the east coast of Scotland. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Nokia and MS
Added to the promise of the CSSU, and related efforts, as well as the increasing potential freedom both from reverse engineered bits, as well as documentation that should have been found ages ago, but for various reasons hasn't been - and code 'newly' released for meego - the platform could be an interesting one for hackers for some time to come. What reverse engineered bits and what documentation are you referring to? And what code is released for MeeGo? ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Nokia and MS
How does this affect the future of Maemo on Nokia's devices? http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2011/feb11/02-11partnership.mspx ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Nokia and MS
On Fri, 2011-02-11 at 13:25 -0500, Demetris wrote: How does this affect the future of Maemo on Nokia's devices? For quite a while the future has been MeeGo instead of Maemo, hence no changes to *Maemo* on Nokia devices. andre -- Andre Klapper (maemo.org bugmaster) ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Nokia and MS
AFAIK it is in the hands of the Maemo community no? -Sivan On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 9:00 PM, Andre Klapper aklap...@openismus.com wrote: On Fri, 2011-02-11 at 13:25 -0500, Demetris wrote: How does this affect the future of Maemo on Nokia's devices? For quite a while the future has been MeeGo instead of Maemo, hence no changes to *Maemo* on Nokia devices. andre -- Andre Klapper (maemo.org bugmaster) ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Nokia and MS
Hm, council that is. On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 9:30 PM, Sivan Greenberg si...@omniqueue.com wrote: AFAIK it is in the hands of the Maemo community no? -Sivan On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 9:00 PM, Andre Klapper aklap...@openismus.com wrote: On Fri, 2011-02-11 at 13:25 -0500, Demetris wrote: How does this affect the future of Maemo on Nokia's devices? For quite a while the future has been MeeGo instead of Maemo, hence no changes to *Maemo* on Nokia devices. andre -- Andre Klapper (maemo.org bugmaster) ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Nokia and MS
On 11.02.11 13:25, Demetris wrote: How does this affect the future of Maemo on Nokia's devices? Maemo is dead and Meego will die, too. Although Maemo is the plattform, that suits my personal needs best of all, I lost hope, there will be a successor to my N900. I think I just give up and get an android-phone with a keyboard and learn Java... Even if the community supports Maemo/Meego, there will be no new hardware and one day my n900 will be broken... Why will Meego die? Because Intel doesn't care! They want to sell Hardware, and will use Android, too. This is a sad day for us, but at least a happy day for the Egyptions! (the term Maemobarak just came to my mind, but doesn't really make sense...) - Klaus ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
