Re: Bug#6203, rotation and OHMD
On Wed, 2009-11-18 at 17:23 +0100, ext Martin Grimme wrote: How about another XAtom (since we already have so many on Maemo ;) ) on the application window, saying I rotate well and quickly. ? The ohmd could take care of this atom and refrain from freezing the app during rotation, iff it is the currently visible one. It's much simpler to just not freeze the application that is being rotated. This allows it to redraw for the new screen dimensions _while_ we are showing the rotating animation. Currently the ohmd freezing is breaking this for others than the Phone application (it seems those guys didn't understand what is happening), but it will be fixed. -Kimmo Of course applications could lie about their rotation capabilities, but that's what we have the extras-testing QA for. Martin 2009/11/18, Eero Tamminen eero.tammi...@nokia.com: Hi, ext Eugene Antimirov wrote: It handles also audio policies and tries to make sure that you get your phone calls when the device is heavily loaded and some other minor things. Just to know. I see now this `ohmd` process in my 41-10. I did not get it, was this daemon improved or made worse in new firmware released lately? Better for known (pre-installed) applications, worse for unknown applications. The reason for this is that unknown applications have unknown resource usage so system policy treats them with more care. It's a bit of a chicken and egg problem. Changing the policy is slow iterative work requiring lots of testing that the policy change doesn't significantly worsen other use-cases in some situations (e.g. for things for which there are certain certification legal requirements). Developers can now experiment and report/discuss things which they would like policy to handle better (for certain classes of 3rd applications and their use-cases). I.e. in regards to 3rd party applications, the policies could be considered work-in-progress. Things that could potentially be done for 3rd party applications policy handling: - Default policy is improved in regards to unknown processes. It's yet unknown whether this can be done well enough without sacrificing the known functionality, that's why feedback is needed on the behavior of 3rd party application use-cases. - Applications themselves specify the required policy on install. This is extra work for apps, and requires extensive testing to guarantee that the policy they choose is good match for the application in all cases. (application doesn't leak or otherwise hog resources) - Some way for user to specify per-application policy. I'm sure power-users would like that... :-) - Eero ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Bug#6203, rotation and OHMD
On Wed, 2009-11-18 at 17:44 +0100, ext Cornelius Hald wrote: I see many use cases for those policies like an incoming phone call should work properly even while some app is doing heavy number crunching. However rotation is a different thing. I mean what's the objective? The rotation animation should be smooth even if something uses a lot of processing time? Fair enough. But pausing the _foreground_ application is hardly the solution. How about pausing all _background_ applications? You are right. This is the bug :) -Kimmo The foreground application is the only application interested in the rotation. Therefore it already specifies explicitly that it can rotate. If I now write an application it's my duty to give the CPU some time while rotating. If I don't do this, _my_ application looks shitty and everyone will tell me. It's not the platform that gets a bad reputation, it's my app. So, if anything should get paused, it's all applications which are not white listed and which are not in the foreground. If I somehow missed the point, please tell me :) Cheers! Conny On Wed, 2009-11-18 at 18:07 +0200, Eero Tamminen wrote: Hi, ext Eugene Antimirov wrote: It handles also audio policies and tries to make sure that you get your phone calls when the device is heavily loaded and some other minor things. Just to know. I see now this `ohmd` process in my 41-10. I did not get it, was this daemon improved or made worse in new firmware released lately? Better for known (pre-installed) applications, worse for unknown applications. The reason for this is that unknown applications have unknown resource usage so system policy treats them with more care. It's a bit of a chicken and egg problem. Changing the policy is slow iterative work requiring lots of testing that the policy change doesn't significantly worsen other use-cases in some situations (e.g. for things for which there are certain certification legal requirements). Developers can now experiment and report/discuss things which they would like policy to handle better (for certain classes of 3rd applications and their use-cases). I.e. in regards to 3rd party applications, the policies could be considered work-in-progress. Things that could potentially be done for 3rd party applications policy handling: - Default policy is improved in regards to unknown processes. It's yet unknown whether this can be done well enough without sacrificing the known functionality, that's why feedback is needed on the behavior of 3rd party application use-cases. - Applications themselves specify the required policy on install. This is extra work for apps, and requires extensive testing to guarantee that the policy they choose is good match for the application in all cases. (application doesn't leak or otherwise hog resources) - Some way for user to specify per-application policy. I'm sure power-users would like that... :-) - Eero ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Bug#6203, rotation and OHMD
Hi, ext Aniello Del Sorbo wrote: Is the purpose of OHMD ONLY to pause not whitelisted applications when rotating? As if it is so, I'd put a stop ohmd every time I run Xournal to make sure it rotates smoothly. It handles also audio policies and tries to make sure that you get your phone calls when the device is heavily loaded and some other minor things. Not something you may want to stop then. I'll wait for a fix. The policy configuration is in: /usr/share/policy/etc/current/syspart.conf As a temporary hack for your own device, you might try to modify that file as root and then do killall ohmd to restart it with the new policy. This way you get to decide what has the priority instead of it being dictated by Nokia. :-) In future there may be some way to install extra policies. NOTE: if this conf file has errors, ohmd isn't started and your device will most likely behave strangely as result (cannot play music etc). DISCLAIMER: if it breaks, you get to keep all the pieces. I.e. have an up to date backup of your data and be ready to reflash in the case that things really break. Modified policy is an untested configuration. - Eero ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Bug#6203, rotation and OHMD
Message: 13 Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 19:28:49 +0200 From: Eero Tamminen eero.tammi...@nokia.com Subject: Re: Bug#6203, rotation and OHMD To: ext Aniello Del Sorbo ani...@gmail.com Cc: maemo-developers@maemo.org maemo-developers@maemo.org Message-ID: 4b02dd51.3070...@nokia.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed It handles also audio policies and tries to make sure that you get your phone calls when the device is heavily loaded and some other minor things. - Eero Just to know. I see now this `ohmd` process in my 41-10. I did not get it, was this daemon improved or made worse in new firmware released lately? -- Sincerely, Eugene ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Bug#6203, rotation and OHMD
2009/11/18 Eero Tamminen eero.tammi...@nokia.com: Hi, ext Aniello Del Sorbo wrote: Is the purpose of OHMD ONLY to pause not whitelisted applications when rotating? As if it is so, I'd put a stop ohmd every time I run Xournal to make sure it rotates smoothly. It handles also audio policies and tries to make sure that you get your phone calls when the device is heavily loaded and some other minor things. Not something you may want to stop then. I'll wait for a fix. The policy configuration is in: /usr/share/policy/etc/current/syspart.conf As a temporary hack for your own device, you might try to modify that file as root and then do killall ohmd to restart it with the new policy. This way you get to decide what has the priority instead of it being dictated by Nokia. :-) In future there may be some way to install extra policies. NOTE: if this conf file has errors, ohmd isn't started and your device will most likely behave strangely as result (cannot play music etc). DISCLAIMER: if it breaks, you get to keep all the pieces. I.e. have an up to date backup of your data and be ready to reflash in the case that things really break. Modified policy is an untested configuration. As commented on the Bug I won't touch anything, I may play with it, but I will have to just wait for a fix coming from you guys. You do realize that the ones that will get thumbs down for this will be us, third party developers as people will think it's Xournal and Conboy not properly developed. Indeed, Nokia Phone app rotates nicely. :) -- anidel ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Bug#6203, rotation and OHMD
Hi, ext Eugene Antimirov wrote: It handles also audio policies and tries to make sure that you get your phone calls when the device is heavily loaded and some other minor things. Just to know. I see now this `ohmd` process in my 41-10. I did not get it, was this daemon improved or made worse in new firmware released lately? Better for known (pre-installed) applications, worse for unknown applications. The reason for this is that unknown applications have unknown resource usage so system policy treats them with more care. It's a bit of a chicken and egg problem. Changing the policy is slow iterative work requiring lots of testing that the policy change doesn't significantly worsen other use-cases in some situations (e.g. for things for which there are certain certification legal requirements). Developers can now experiment and report/discuss things which they would like policy to handle better (for certain classes of 3rd applications and their use-cases). I.e. in regards to 3rd party applications, the policies could be considered work-in-progress. Things that could potentially be done for 3rd party applications policy handling: - Default policy is improved in regards to unknown processes. It's yet unknown whether this can be done well enough without sacrificing the known functionality, that's why feedback is needed on the behavior of 3rd party application use-cases. - Applications themselves specify the required policy on install. This is extra work for apps, and requires extensive testing to guarantee that the policy they choose is good match for the application in all cases. (application doesn't leak or otherwise hog resources) - Some way for user to specify per-application policy. I'm sure power-users would like that... :-) - Eero ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Bug#6203, rotation and OHMD
How about another XAtom (since we already have so many on Maemo ;) ) on the application window, saying I rotate well and quickly. ? The ohmd could take care of this atom and refrain from freezing the app during rotation, iff it is the currently visible one. Of course applications could lie about their rotation capabilities, but that's what we have the extras-testing QA for. Martin 2009/11/18, Eero Tamminen eero.tammi...@nokia.com: Hi, ext Eugene Antimirov wrote: It handles also audio policies and tries to make sure that you get your phone calls when the device is heavily loaded and some other minor things. Just to know. I see now this `ohmd` process in my 41-10. I did not get it, was this daemon improved or made worse in new firmware released lately? Better for known (pre-installed) applications, worse for unknown applications. The reason for this is that unknown applications have unknown resource usage so system policy treats them with more care. It's a bit of a chicken and egg problem. Changing the policy is slow iterative work requiring lots of testing that the policy change doesn't significantly worsen other use-cases in some situations (e.g. for things for which there are certain certification legal requirements). Developers can now experiment and report/discuss things which they would like policy to handle better (for certain classes of 3rd applications and their use-cases). I.e. in regards to 3rd party applications, the policies could be considered work-in-progress. Things that could potentially be done for 3rd party applications policy handling: - Default policy is improved in regards to unknown processes. It's yet unknown whether this can be done well enough without sacrificing the known functionality, that's why feedback is needed on the behavior of 3rd party application use-cases. - Applications themselves specify the required policy on install. This is extra work for apps, and requires extensive testing to guarantee that the policy they choose is good match for the application in all cases. (application doesn't leak or otherwise hog resources) - Some way for user to specify per-application policy. I'm sure power-users would like that... :-) - Eero ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Bug#6203, rotation and OHMD
Out of ignorance, why don't you guys simply allow only the foremost (i.e. the currently visible one) application to rotate and send the rotation event to the other apps AFTER the animation has completed. After all to switch from one app to the other we've got to go via the task switcher and that rotates to landscape mode anyway (at least until you put in support for rotation there as well, but still..) Aniello 2009/11/18 Martin Grimme martin.gri...@gmail.com: How about another XAtom (since we already have so many on Maemo ;) ) on the application window, saying I rotate well and quickly. ? The ohmd could take care of this atom and refrain from freezing the app during rotation, iff it is the currently visible one. Of course applications could lie about their rotation capabilities, but that's what we have the extras-testing QA for. Martin 2009/11/18, Eero Tamminen eero.tammi...@nokia.com: Hi, ext Eugene Antimirov wrote: It handles also audio policies and tries to make sure that you get your phone calls when the device is heavily loaded and some other minor things. Just to know. I see now this `ohmd` process in my 41-10. I did not get it, was this daemon improved or made worse in new firmware released lately? Better for known (pre-installed) applications, worse for unknown applications. The reason for this is that unknown applications have unknown resource usage so system policy treats them with more care. It's a bit of a chicken and egg problem. Changing the policy is slow iterative work requiring lots of testing that the policy change doesn't significantly worsen other use-cases in some situations (e.g. for things for which there are certain certification legal requirements). Developers can now experiment and report/discuss things which they would like policy to handle better (for certain classes of 3rd applications and their use-cases). I.e. in regards to 3rd party applications, the policies could be considered work-in-progress. Things that could potentially be done for 3rd party applications policy handling: - Default policy is improved in regards to unknown processes. It's yet unknown whether this can be done well enough without sacrificing the known functionality, that's why feedback is needed on the behavior of 3rd party application use-cases. - Applications themselves specify the required policy on install. This is extra work for apps, and requires extensive testing to guarantee that the policy they choose is good match for the application in all cases. (application doesn't leak or otherwise hog resources) - Some way for user to specify per-application policy. I'm sure power-users would like that... :-) - Eero ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers -- anidel ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Bug#6203, rotation and OHMD
I see many use cases for those policies like an incoming phone call should work properly even while some app is doing heavy number crunching. However rotation is a different thing. I mean what's the objective? The rotation animation should be smooth even if something uses a lot of processing time? Fair enough. But pausing the _foreground_ application is hardly the solution. How about pausing all _background_ applications? The foreground application is the only application interested in the rotation. Therefore it already specifies explicitly that it can rotate. If I now write an application it's my duty to give the CPU some time while rotating. If I don't do this, _my_ application looks shitty and everyone will tell me. It's not the platform that gets a bad reputation, it's my app. So, if anything should get paused, it's all applications which are not white listed and which are not in the foreground. If I somehow missed the point, please tell me :) Cheers! Conny On Wed, 2009-11-18 at 18:07 +0200, Eero Tamminen wrote: Hi, ext Eugene Antimirov wrote: It handles also audio policies and tries to make sure that you get your phone calls when the device is heavily loaded and some other minor things. Just to know. I see now this `ohmd` process in my 41-10. I did not get it, was this daemon improved or made worse in new firmware released lately? Better for known (pre-installed) applications, worse for unknown applications. The reason for this is that unknown applications have unknown resource usage so system policy treats them with more care. It's a bit of a chicken and egg problem. Changing the policy is slow iterative work requiring lots of testing that the policy change doesn't significantly worsen other use-cases in some situations (e.g. for things for which there are certain certification legal requirements). Developers can now experiment and report/discuss things which they would like policy to handle better (for certain classes of 3rd applications and their use-cases). I.e. in regards to 3rd party applications, the policies could be considered work-in-progress. Things that could potentially be done for 3rd party applications policy handling: - Default policy is improved in regards to unknown processes. It's yet unknown whether this can be done well enough without sacrificing the known functionality, that's why feedback is needed on the behavior of 3rd party application use-cases. - Applications themselves specify the required policy on install. This is extra work for apps, and requires extensive testing to guarantee that the policy they choose is good match for the application in all cases. (application doesn't leak or otherwise hog resources) - Some way for user to specify per-application policy. I'm sure power-users would like that... :-) - Eero ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Bug#6203, rotation and OHMD
Hi, ext Aniello Del Sorbo wrote: why don't you guys simply allow only the foremost (i.e. the currently visible one) application to rotate and send the rotation event to the other apps AFTER the animation has completed. Background applications don't get the rotation / redraw messages at all. You can check this with xresponse and/or xev. (Fixing that in X and composite/window manager required a lot of work, but AFAIK applicable parts of this work are now in upstream.) - Eero ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Bug#6203, rotation and OHMD
Hi, ext Martin Grimme wrote: How about another XAtom (since we already have so many on Maemo ;) ) on the application window, saying I rotate well and quickly. ? The ohmd could take care of this atom and refrain from freezing the app during rotation, iff it is the currently visible one. Of course applications could lie about their rotation capabilities, but that's what we have the extras-testing QA for. The rotation case is a minor issue and I think it can be handled OK for unknown applications without this kind of kludges. Let's just hope we can get a fix for that included to the next release. The main issue with policy is handling of unknown processes in general and for that more feedback is needed. (A hint: MAFW is a known system service, so it's good to use that for music playback... Tracker use is a bit more problematic because it's resource usage can fluctuate pretty much according to content it processes and what kind of requests it gets. And policy daemon doesn't currently know whether foreground application needs tracker or not.) - Eero ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Bug#6203, rotation and OHMD
2009/11/18 Cornelius Hald h...@icandy.de: I see many use cases for those policies like an incoming phone call should work properly even while some app is doing heavy number crunching. However rotation is a different thing. I mean what's the objective? The rotation animation should be smooth even if something uses a lot of processing time? Fair enough. But pausing the _foreground_ application is hardly the solution. How about pausing all _background_ applications? The foreground application is the only application interested in the rotation. Therefore it already specifies explicitly that it can rotate. If I now write an application it's my duty to give the CPU some time while rotating. If I don't do this, _my_ application looks shitty and everyone will tell me. It's not the platform that gets a bad reputation, it's my app. So, if anything should get paused, it's all applications which are not white listed and which are not in the foreground. If I somehow missed the point, please tell me :) Cheers! Conny How dare you steal my words out of my hands before I even write them! No, I miss the point as well.. Aniello On Wed, 2009-11-18 at 18:07 +0200, Eero Tamminen wrote: Hi, ext Eugene Antimirov wrote: It handles also audio policies and tries to make sure that you get your phone calls when the device is heavily loaded and some other minor things. Just to know. I see now this `ohmd` process in my 41-10. I did not get it, was this daemon improved or made worse in new firmware released lately? Better for known (pre-installed) applications, worse for unknown applications. The reason for this is that unknown applications have unknown resource usage so system policy treats them with more care. It's a bit of a chicken and egg problem. Changing the policy is slow iterative work requiring lots of testing that the policy change doesn't significantly worsen other use-cases in some situations (e.g. for things for which there are certain certification legal requirements). Developers can now experiment and report/discuss things which they would like policy to handle better (for certain classes of 3rd applications and their use-cases). I.e. in regards to 3rd party applications, the policies could be considered work-in-progress. Things that could potentially be done for 3rd party applications policy handling: - Default policy is improved in regards to unknown processes. It's yet unknown whether this can be done well enough without sacrificing the known functionality, that's why feedback is needed on the behavior of 3rd party application use-cases. - Applications themselves specify the required policy on install. This is extra work for apps, and requires extensive testing to guarantee that the policy they choose is good match for the application in all cases. (application doesn't leak or otherwise hog resources) - Some way for user to specify per-application policy. I'm sure power-users would like that... :-) - Eero ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers -- anidel Sent from London, Eng, United Kingdom ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Bug#6203, rotation and OHMD
On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 16:17, Aniello Del Sorbo ani...@gmail.com wrote: Is the purpose of OHMD ONLY to pause not whitelisted applications when rotating? As if it is so, I'd put a stop ohmd every time I run Xournal to make sure it rotates smoothly. Find a way of including applications which do support rotation in ohmd's whitelist? Cheers, Andrew -- Andrew Flegg -- mailto:and...@bleb.org | http://www.bleb.org/ ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Bug#6203, rotation and OHMD
Hi, ext Aniello Del Sorbo wrote: according to bug 6203 (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6203) Nokia introduced this ohmd daemon that pauses applications not whitelisted so that the rotation itself would proceed smoothly. In the meanwhile Collabora had fixed and improved a lot rotation itself, so that this pausing is not needed anymore. In fact, it make thinks worse. Is the purpose of OHMD ONLY to pause not whitelisted applications when rotating? As if it is so, I'd put a stop ohmd every time I run Xournal to make sure it rotates smoothly. It handles also audio policies and tries to make sure that you get your phone calls when the device is heavily loaded and some other minor things. - Eero ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Bug#6203, rotation and OHMD
2009/11/17 Eero Tamminen eero.tammi...@nokia.com: Hi, ext Aniello Del Sorbo wrote: according to bug 6203 (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6203) Nokia introduced this ohmd daemon that pauses applications not whitelisted so that the rotation itself would proceed smoothly. In the meanwhile Collabora had fixed and improved a lot rotation itself, so that this pausing is not needed anymore. In fact, it make thinks worse. Is the purpose of OHMD ONLY to pause not whitelisted applications when rotating? As if it is so, I'd put a stop ohmd every time I run Xournal to make sure it rotates smoothly. It handles also audio policies and tries to make sure that you get your phone calls when the device is heavily loaded and some other minor things. - Eero Not something you may want to stop then. I'll wait for a fix. -- anidel Sent from London, Eng, United Kingdom ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
