Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
On Friday 13 Jun 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I reflashed last weekend, and have only added OpenSSH and FBREADER since then. I could part with OpenSSH easily in the short run. Ssh hasn't been a problem for me. I have FBReader constantly loaded and my server polls my N800 every 5 minutes via SSH for MRTG stats. No battery problems from either of these. Biggest battery-drainers I've experienced were the Ogg-Vorbis Player,which would kill my battery overnight and Canola, which can do the job in a couple of hours. -- Tony Green Ipswich, Suffolk, England http://www.beermad.org.uk http://no2id-ip.web-brewer.co.uk ** This message is digitally signed. If your email client is unable to read digital signatures, you may see an attachment that you cannot open. See http://www.gnupg.org/(en)/documentation/faqs.html for more information. You can validate my PGP key from my website: http://www.beermad.org.uk/ * No Micro$oft products were used in the generation of this communication signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
Hi, ext David Dyer-Bennet wrote: you can have fun and google for details both in this ml and itt, but to spare you the search, you have to: -flash the standard image we release (not the leaked diablo for example) I'm on a standard image (and have never been on anything else). Currently the latest posted on the site when I reflashed last weekend, I believe that was OS 2008 51-3. -remove mmc/sd/whatever you have in the slot Will try, I've always had a card in the external slot. I've reseated and checked the card, but haven't run without it for extended periods. My external card is an 8GB SDHC. What about the internal card? -format to vfat the internal mmc in case you have an n810 and you changed it to something else I'm on an N800, and I don't believe I've changed the format on the internal card (your statement seems to say I couldn't on an N800 anyway). Also, you say mmc. My internal card is an 8GB SDHC. It *seems* to work; but could that be a problem? (I think of SD card as the generic term, so your use of another form makes me think you may mean something very specific; but that usage may be different in your company, part of the world, language.) Could you try taking out both memory cards, disabling all Home applets, putting the device to offline mode, rebooting, charging the battery full and checking how much battery is left after device is idle for one day on table (so that nothing presses the keys or touchscreen)? If after this you still have problems, then the device is probably broken. Ouch. Because I'm very close to running in the conditions you specify, and I'm having severe battery life problems (in fact I started this thread, though you're responding to another person who sounds like he's having the same problems I am). If not then try reintroducing one by one your customisations and verify. I reflashed last weekend, and have only added OpenSSH and FBREADER since then. I could part with OpenSSH easily in the short run. Ssh hasn't been a problem for me. I'd almost be happy if it turned out to be hardware; though it would be a pain to carry through getting it fixed. But I'd feel a lot better about the state of the software. In my case the device battery went down in about a day when being idle because the fm-radio applet was polling constantly at about 1 sec interval. Maybe something in your system is also waking at that kind of frequency? - Eero ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
On Tue, June 10, 2008 13:16, Igor Stoppa wrote: you can have fun and google for details both in this ml and itt, but to spare you the search, you have to: -flash the standard image we release (not the leaked diablo for example) I'm on a standard image (and have never been on anything else). Currently the latest posted on the site when I reflashed last weekend, I believe that was OS 2008 51-3. -remove mmc/sd/whatever you have in the slot Will try, I've always had a card in the external slot. I've reseated and checked the card, but haven't run without it for extended periods. My external card is an 8GB SDHC. What about the internal card? -format to vfat the internal mmc in case you have an n810 and you changed it to something else I'm on an N800, and I don't believe I've changed the format on the internal card (your statement seems to say I couldn't on an N800 anyway). Also, you say mmc. My internal card is an 8GB SDHC. It *seems* to work; but could that be a problem? (I think of SD card as the generic term, so your use of another form makes me think you may mean something very specific; but that usage may be different in your company, part of the world, language.) If after this you still have problems, then the device is probably broken. Ouch. Because I'm very close to running in the conditions you specify, and I'm having severe battery life problems (in fact I started this thread, though you're responding to another person who sounds like he's having the same problems I am). If not then try reintroducing one by one your customisations and verify. I reflashed last weekend, and have only added OpenSSH and FBREADER since then. I could part with OpenSSH easily in the short run. I'd almost be happy if it turned out to be hardware; though it would be a pain to carry through getting it fixed. But I'd feel a lot better about the state of the software. -- David Dyer-Bennet, [EMAIL PROTECTED]; http://dd-b.net/ Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/ Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/ Dragaera: http://dragaera.info -- David Dyer-Bennet, [EMAIL PROTECTED]; http://dd-b.net/ Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/ Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/ Dragaera: http://dragaera.info ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
On Mon, June 9, 2008 04:12, Eero Tamminen wrote: Hi, ext Marius Gedminas wrote: On Sat, Jun 07, 2008 at 02:13:03PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: On Fri, Jun 06, 2008 at 10:14:27PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: I'm voting for software. I see ke-recv occupying 50% of cpu and 25% of memory when nothing is happening (it's connected to local wifi, no web browser open) and hald-addon-something occupying 50% of memory. If I'm not mistaken, ke-recv is the thing that mounts SD cards. It does also some other similar things, but basically it should be idle as should hald-* processes. Thanks. I seem to get various processes eating immense amounts of time and memory when the tablet gets into wonky states, but I haven't found what *triggers* it yet. It shouldn't eat 50% CPU for any longer period of time. Interesting. I'd check if the card were properly seated, and I'd check the filesystem on the card (I believe it's possible to corrupt a FAT filesystem and end up with recursive directory loops). Thanks, will do. I think I'm going to reflash it (there's not that much to reconfigure), as well. Though I suppose I should check the card format first, on the principle of perturbing as close to exactly one thing as possible between tests. Good idea. You could also try to pull the card(s) out and see if you still get 50% CPU usage. The card checked out okay on windows, and the files all seem valid. I've reflashed, and installed even less than before (I'm putting things back one at a time and waiting a while, to see when weirdness begins). I haven't had one of the weird sluggish episodes (which is when I found the various processes eating so much time) yet, but I do have the battery running down in ways I don't understand. Also I'll lock the screen and put it down, and when I push power the next day get what I think is a boot (does the progress bar go across the bottom of the Nokia logo screen for anything except a real boot?). So far all I've installed since the reflash (with what I remember as 51-3 of OS2008) is OpenSsh and FBREADER. I'm in the middle of a book in FBREADER, so that's the key application at the moment :-). Good idea. One could also check what dmesg says, whether it shows anything suspicious. Good point, should have looked at that before. I'll keep that in mind in future (tablet is at home, I'm at work now). -- David Dyer-Bennet, [EMAIL PROTECTED]; http://dd-b.net/ Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/ Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/ Dragaera: http://dragaera.info ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
Hi, ext David Dyer-Bennet wrote: If I'm not mistaken, ke-recv is the thing that mounts SD cards. It does also some other similar things, but basically it should be idle as should hald-* processes. Thanks. I seem to get various processes eating immense amounts of time and memory when the tablet gets into wonky states, but I haven't found what *triggers* it yet. It shouldn't eat 50% CPU for any longer period of time. Interesting. I'd check if the card were properly seated, and I'd check the filesystem on the card (I believe it's possible to corrupt a FAT filesystem and end up with recursive directory loops). Thanks, will do. I think I'm going to reflash it (there's not that much to reconfigure), as well. Though I suppose I should check the card format first, on the principle of perturbing as close to exactly one thing as possible between tests. Good idea. You could also try to pull the card(s) out and see if you still get 50% CPU usage. The card checked out okay on windows, and the files all seem valid. I've reflashed, and installed even less than before (I'm putting things back one at a time and waiting a while, to see when weirdness begins). I haven't had one of the weird sluggish episodes (which is when I found the various processes eating so much time) yet, but I do have the battery running down in ways I don't understand. Also I'll lock the screen and put it down, You should try using Offline mode from the power menu. Presence thing in statusbar uses WLAN now and then, there are also some WLAN APs with bad power management. If that doesn't help, then you could try closing all applications if you've left any open and disabling all Home applets. As you don't have really much 3rd party stuff installed, that shouldn't be an issue though, but if it affects things, we can go through things you had open/enabled. and when I push power the next day get what I think is a boot (does the progress bar go across the bottom of the Nokia logo screen for anything except a real boot?). Only for real boot. So far all I've installed since the reflash (with what I remember as 51-3 of OS2008) is OpenSsh and FBREADER. I'm in the middle of a book in FBREADER, so that's the key application at the moment :-). Good idea. One could also check what dmesg says, whether it shows anything suspicious. Good point, should have looked at that before. I'll keep that in mind in future (tablet is at home, I'm at work now). - Eero ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 9:45 AM, Eero Tamminen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, You should try using Offline mode from the power menu. Presence thing in statusbar uses WLAN now and then, there are also some WLAN APs with bad power management. If that doesn't help, then you could try closing all applications if you've left any open and disabling all Home applets. As you don't have really much 3rd party stuff installed, that shouldn't be an issue though, but if it affects things, we can go through things you had open/enabled. - Eero I often have mine plugged in when I'm using it, and turn it off at night or if I won't be using it for several hours. I've been following this thread with interest, since I tend not to get much battery life if I don't do it that way. I decided to do a little test on Sunday, so I turned it on first thing in the morning, and never turned it off all day. When I wasn't using it, I closed all open applications, put it in offline mode, and locked the keys and touchscreen. When I went to bed, the power meter said that it had 3 hours when in use and 5 days when idle. When I got up the next morning, the battery was completely down and the tablet had shut completely off. When I plugged it in, I verified the settings, and they were indeed as I reported above. Something is definitely not right. The price that Nokia is charging for replacement batteries is highway robbery, and prohibitive to have one just for a spare, which is what I normally do with my cellphone. I swap batteries in my phone regularly to keep the batteries fresh and active. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 10:26:00AM -0600, Mark wrote: On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 9:45 AM, Eero Tamminen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, You should try using Offline mode from the power menu. Presence thing in statusbar uses WLAN now and then, there are also some WLAN APs with bad power management. If that doesn't help, then you could try closing all applications if you've left any open and disabling all Home applets. As you don't have really much 3rd party stuff installed, that shouldn't be an issue though, but if it affects things, we can go through things you had open/enabled. - Eero I often have mine plugged in when I'm using it, and turn it off at night or if I won't be using it for several hours. I've been following this thread with interest, since I tend not to get much battery life if I don't do it that way. I decided to do a little test on Sunday, so I turned it on first thing in the morning, and never turned it off all day. When I wasn't using it, I closed all open applications, put it in offline mode, and locked the keys and touchscreen. When I went to bed, the power meter said that it had 3 hours when in use and 5 days when idle. When I got up the next morning, the battery was completely down and the tablet had shut completely off. When I plugged it in, I verified the settings, and they were indeed as I reported above. Something is definitely not right. I normally do that to my N800. The battery lasts days, unless I inadvertently forget to shut down the screen. -- hendrik ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
On Tue, 2008-06-10 at 10:26 -0600, ext Mark wrote: I verified the settings, and they were indeed as I reported above. Something is definitely not right. Options: -your device is broken and needs to be repaired/replaced -you are running some broken 3rd party application/library (closing apps is not enough) -you have found some new interesting bug in our sw you can have fun and google for details both in this ml and itt, but to spare you the search, you have to: -flash the standard image we release (not the leaked diablo for example) -remove mmc/sd/whatever you have in the slot -format to vfat the internal mmc in case you have an n810 and you changed it to something else If after this you still have problems, then the device is probably broken. If not then try reintroducing one by one your customisations and verify. To give you an example (but i'm not pointing to it) omwheater used to drain the battery dry. -- Cheers, Igor --- Igor Stoppa Nokia Devices RD - Helsinki ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
Hi, ext Marius Gedminas wrote: On Sat, Jun 07, 2008 at 02:13:03PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: On Fri, Jun 06, 2008 at 10:14:27PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: I'm voting for software. I see ke-recv occupying 50% of cpu and 25% of memory when nothing is happening (it's connected to local wifi, no web browser open) and hald-addon-something occupying 50% of memory. If I'm not mistaken, ke-recv is the thing that mounts SD cards. It does also some other similar things, but basically it should be idle as should hald-* processes. It shouldn't eat 50% CPU for any longer period of time. Interesting. I'd check if the card were properly seated, and I'd check the filesystem on the card (I believe it's possible to corrupt a FAT filesystem and end up with recursive directory loops). Thanks, will do. I think I'm going to reflash it (there's not that much to reconfigure), as well. Though I suppose I should check the card format first, on the principle of perturbing as close to exactly one thing as possible between tests. Good idea. You could also try to pull the card(s) out and see if you still get 50% CPU usage. Good idea. One could also check what dmesg says, whether it shows anything suspicious. What's the best way to check the card format? Checkdisk on Windows through my card reader? Yes, I believe that would be most convenient if you've got Windows available. Or are the right tools there on the N800? I'm not sure. IIRC, the File Manager has some sort of repair option in one of the menus, that probably invokes dosfsck behind the scenes. (There's also the option of going hardcore and running dosfck as root from a terminal, but its user interface is a bit silly. Not recommended.) - Eero ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
On Sat, Jun 07, 2008 at 02:13:03PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: Marius Gedminas wrote: On Fri, Jun 06, 2008 at 10:14:27PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: I'm voting for software. I see ke-recv occupying 50% of cpu and 25% of memory when nothing is happening (it's connected to local wifi, no web browser open) and hald-addon-something occupying 50% of memory. If I'm not mistaken, ke-recv is the thing that mounts SD cards. It shouldn't eat 50% CPU for any longer period of time. Interesting. I'd check if the card were properly seated, and I'd check the filesystem on the card (I believe it's possible to corrupt a FAT filesystem and end up with recursive directory loops). Thanks, will do. I think I'm going to reflash it (there's not that much to reconfigure), as well. Though I suppose I should check the card format first, on the principle of perturbing as close to exactly one thing as possible between tests. Good idea. You could also try to pull the card(s) out and see if you still get 50% CPU usage. What's the best way to check the card format? Checkdisk on Windows through my card reader? Yes, I believe that would be most convenient if you've got Windows available. Or are the right tools there on the N800? I'm not sure. IIRC, the File Manager has some sort of repair option in one of the menus, that probably invokes dosfsck behind the scenes. (There's also the option of going hardcore and running dosfck as root from a terminal, but its user interface is a bit silly. Not recommended.) Marius Gedminas -- Never attribute to malloc that which can be adequately explained by stupidity. -- From the .sig of [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Joerg Pommnitz) signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
On Fri, Jun 06, 2008 at 10:14:27PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: I'm voting for software. I see ke-recv occupying 50% of cpu and 25% of memory when nothing is happening (it's connected to local wifi, no web browser open) and hald-addon-something occupying 50% of memory. If I'm not mistaken, ke-recv is the thing that mounts SD cards. It shouldn't eat 50% CPU for any longer period of time. Interesting. I'd check if the card were properly seated, and I'd check the filesystem on the card (I believe it's possible to corrupt a FAT filesystem and end up with recursive directory loops). Marius Gedminas -- Voodoo Programming: Things programmers do that they know shouldn't work but they try anyway, and which sometimes actually work, such as recompiling everything. -- Karl Lehenbauer signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
Marius Gedminas wrote: On Fri, Jun 06, 2008 at 10:14:27PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: I'm voting for software. I see ke-recv occupying 50% of cpu and 25% of memory when nothing is happening (it's connected to local wifi, no web browser open) and hald-addon-something occupying 50% of memory. If I'm not mistaken, ke-recv is the thing that mounts SD cards. It shouldn't eat 50% CPU for any longer period of time. Interesting. I'd check if the card were properly seated, and I'd check the filesystem on the card (I believe it's possible to corrupt a FAT filesystem and end up with recursive directory loops). Thanks, will do. I think I'm going to reflash it (there's not that much to reconfigure), as well. Though I suppose I should check the card format first, on the principle of perturbing as close to exactly one thing as possible between tests. What's the best way to check the card format? Checkdisk on Windows through my card reader? Or are the right tools there on the N800? I can look for those. -- David Dyer-Bennet, [EMAIL PROTECTED]; http://dd-b.net/ Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/ Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/ Dragaera: http://dragaera.info ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
David Dyer-Bennet wrote: Marius Gedminas wrote: On Fri, Jun 06, 2008 at 10:14:27PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: I'm voting for software. I see ke-recv occupying 50% of cpu and 25% of memory when nothing is happening (it's connected to local wifi, no web browser open) and hald-addon-something occupying 50% of memory. If I'm not mistaken, ke-recv is the thing that mounts SD cards. It shouldn't eat 50% CPU for any longer period of time. Interesting. I'd check if the card were properly seated, and I'd check the filesystem on the card (I believe it's possible to corrupt a FAT filesystem and end up with recursive directory loops). Thanks, will do. I think I'm going to reflash it (there's not that much to reconfigure), as well. Though I suppose I should check the card format first, on the principle of perturbing as close to exactly one thing as possible between tests. What's the best way to check the card format? Checkdisk on Windows through my card reader? Or are the right tools there on the N800? I can look for those. You can unmount it (run just mount first to remember the /dev/ name) and run dosfsck (perhaps just fsck? Don't remember... might need to specify that it's a vfat volume.) from a terminal or ssh session. -- Ryan Pavlik www.cleardefinition.com #282 + (442) - [X] A programmer started to cuss Because getting to sleep was a fuss As he lay there in bed Looping 'round in his head was: while(!asleep()) sheep++; ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
Kevin T Neely twisted the bytes to say: Kevin On Wed, Jun 04, 2008 at 12:07:49PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: One thing I know happens now is that touching the screen turns on the backlight while locked. So sitting in the case in my bag may be turning Kevin That shouln't happen. Touching the screen should no bring the Kevin backlight up. However, hitting one of the hard buttons ought to Kevin bring it up, so the device can show you how to unlock it. I usually lock the keys and screen of my N800. When the Alarm clock application is triggered the screen turns on (a good thing), but if it is not attended the screen stays on until the battery dies! (bad thing) Is this a bug in the alarm software? --daniel -- -- Daniel M. German http://turingmachine.org/ http://silvernegative.com/ dmg (at) uvic (dot) ca replace (at) with @ and (dot) with . ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
Marius Gedminas wrote: On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 09:26:31AM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: and it spent the day in my shoulder bag, and when I unlocked it near bedtime to read for a little while (not having touched it since I took it off the charger in the morning), the battery was down to 3 days standby, 1 hour active. That's not normal. And relating to the ongoing integration -- possibly I'm seeing drastically shortened battery life from having both wifi and bluetooth enabled. Since they're alternative connection profiles I think it should only use one at a time, but maybe it doesn't. No: I have both bluetooth and wifi enabled (and autoconnecting to any known access points). My tablet is normally not discoverable over Bluetooth, for security-by-obscurity purposes. The battery life is normal: if I don't use it the whole day, it still shows 100% in the applet. Good. Mine is apparently somehow aberrant. So the question now is hardware or software. I'm voting for software. I see ke-recv occupying 50% of cpu and 25% of memory when nothing is happening (it's connected to local wifi, no web browser open) and hald-addon-something occupying 50% of memory. And everything I try to do is terribly slow. Even after what I think of as a reboot, though I'm not sure which options *really* are equivalent to what. Software is a good answer, in that I can conceivably fix this myself somehow. Someday. I've heard that there are some wifi accesspoints that don't support power savings properly, and make the tablet use much more power when connected. When I'm at work, I'm not connected to Wif. -- David Dyer-Bennet, [EMAIL PROTECTED]; http://dd-b.net/ Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/ Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/ Dragaera: http://dragaera.info ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
Dave Sherohman wrote: On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 09:26:31AM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: And relating to the ongoing integration -- possibly I'm seeing drastically shortened battery life from having both wifi and bluetooth enabled. Since they're alternative connection profiles I think it should only use one at a time, but maybe it doesn't. Sounds to me like you may be assuming that network connectivity is Bluetooth's only function... What about getting online via wifi while using a Bluetooth keyboard? It would really suck if turning on your keyboard made the internet connection drop and vice-versa. I'm not forgetting it (and in fact I have a bluetooth keyboard bought primarily for use with the N800), just, it's not part of the current problem. -- David Dyer-Bennet, [EMAIL PROTECTED]; http://dd-b.net/ Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/ Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/ Dragaera: http://dragaera.info ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
Andrew Daviel wrote: I hadn't realized that the AP is part of the power-saving scheme; there is a power-save option on the tablet under advanced/other in the connection manager. If unchecked, battery life drops from 100 hours to 7 hours on my APs (Dlink at home, Proxim at work). I tried setting the WiFi to 10mW but it didn't make much difference. In Os2008 I find no such option. In fact I find no advanced option anywhere. Be more specific? However, with bluetooth and wifi turned off and nothing but one xterm (running top) open, I see a load average of 4.4 consistently, with ke-recv, dbus-daemon, and hald being among the processes most often receiving processor time. Something's wrong here, right? -- David Dyer-Bennet, [EMAIL PROTECTED]; http://dd-b.net/ Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/ Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/ Dragaera: http://dragaera.info ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
On Wed, Jun 04, 2008 at 03:36:00PM -0600, Mark wrote: Why didn't they just force owners login to their tablet like you do in most Linux distros? If they used the same kind of login process as desktop Linux, users could choose whether to autologin if they don't care about security or require logging in if they do. Most users, given a choice between convenience and security, will choose convenience. Between that and the lock device feature (which should also have a timeout feature to automatically lock it after a selectable period of inactivity and would work like screensavers that can be set to require a login to exit the screensaver) Um, doesn't it? Control panel - Device lock - Autolock period. would go a long way toward satisfying basic security needs. Inclusion of on-the-fly encryption (especially for the removable cards) would round out the package nicely. Marius Gedminas -- We've found by experience that people who are careless and sloppy writers are usually also careless and sloppy thinkers (often enough to bet on, anyway). -- ESR (http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html) signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
On Wed, June 4, 2008 12:14, Marius Gedminas wrote: On Wed, Jun 04, 2008 at 12:07:49PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: On Tue, June 3, 2008 07:53, Marius Gedminas wrote: The device is very good at seamless power savings, but it's possible to install buggy applications that aren't smart enough to sleep when they should and drain the battery faster. Something like that may be going on, though I haven't installed very much. I'm assuming the application would have to be running to make a difference? Yes. Yesterday I started the day fully charged, Do you mean that the battery icon showed full charge, or that you kept it charging overnight and the charging animation stopped? Was on charge overnight, the animation had stopped. As you correctly figured out below. In my experience the battery icon is very nonlinear: you use the tablet for 4 hours, it shows full charge, then it starts showing less and in 2 more hours of active usage it runs out completely. (The numbers are approximate.) Battery condition monitoring is clearly still in the voodoo stages. Sometimes I think it'd be better if they didn't try, it's so random. and it spent the day in my shoulder bag, and when I unlocked it near bedtime to read for a little while (not having touched it since I took it off the charger in the morning), Ah, okay, so you answered my question. ;-) the battery was down to 3 days standby, 1 hour active. That's not normal. It didn't match my earlier uses. (I've been very slowly integrating this thing into my daily life; it's intended to eventually replace my Palm TX, but so far the calendar and contacts are still on the Palm. I've also just got a new much-upgraded smartphone, an HTC Mogul, and I'm trying to figure out which functions should live where.) And relating to the ongoing integration -- possibly I'm seeing drastically shortened battery life from having both wifi and bluetooth enabled. Since they're alternative connection profiles I think it should only use one at a time, but maybe it doesn't. -- David Dyer-Bennet, [EMAIL PROTECTED]; http://dd-b.net/ Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/ Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/ Dragaera: http://dragaera.info ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 09:26:31AM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: and it spent the day in my shoulder bag, and when I unlocked it near bedtime to read for a little while (not having touched it since I took it off the charger in the morning), the battery was down to 3 days standby, 1 hour active. That's not normal. And relating to the ongoing integration -- possibly I'm seeing drastically shortened battery life from having both wifi and bluetooth enabled. Since they're alternative connection profiles I think it should only use one at a time, but maybe it doesn't. No: I have both bluetooth and wifi enabled (and autoconnecting to any known access points). My tablet is normally not discoverable over Bluetooth, for security-by-obscurity purposes. The battery life is normal: if I don't use it the whole day, it still shows 100% in the applet. I've heard that there are some wifi accesspoints that don't support power savings properly, and make the tablet use much more power when connected. Marius Gedminas -- AdamV SamB: PHP's basic control structure is the database timeout error. -- from Twisted.Quotes signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 5:13 AM, Marius Gedminas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Jun 04, 2008 at 03:36:00PM -0600, Mark wrote: Why didn't they just force owners login to their tablet like you do in most Linux distros? If they used the same kind of login process as desktop Linux, users could choose whether to autologin if they don't care about security or require logging in if they do. Most users, given a choice between convenience and security, will choose convenience. But the key word here is choice. Currently there is none, and those who need more security don't have that option. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
On Jun 5, 2008, at 10:32 AM, Marius Gedminas wrote: On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 09:26:31AM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: and it spent the day in my shoulder bag, and when I unlocked it near bedtime to read for a little while (not having touched it since I took it off the charger in the morning), the battery was down to 3 days standby, 1 hour active. That's not normal. And relating to the ongoing integration -- possibly I'm seeing drastically shortened battery life from having both wifi and bluetooth enabled. Since they're alternative connection profiles I think it should only use one at a time, but maybe it doesn't. I've heard that there are some wifi accesspoints that don't support power savings properly, and make the tablet use much more power when connected. Just ask lcuk, connecting to an access point that doesn't support powersaving will bring your battery life down to about 2 hours. I get about 60 hours out of my N800 with Bluetooth on and wifi connected (WRT54G with tomato). ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 09:26:31AM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: And relating to the ongoing integration -- possibly I'm seeing drastically shortened battery life from having both wifi and bluetooth enabled. Since they're alternative connection profiles I think it should only use one at a time, but maybe it doesn't. Sounds to me like you may be assuming that network connectivity is Bluetooth's only function... What about getting online via wifi while using a Bluetooth keyboard? It would really suck if turning on your keyboard made the internet connection drop and vice-versa. It would be nice, though, if Bluetooth remembered its previous state when a connection is made and restored that state when the connection is terminated. (e.g., Bluetooth is off. Set up an internet connection via cellphone, causing BT to be automatically turned on. When the internet connection is terminated, then BT should automatically turn off unless something else is using it.) -- News aggregation meets world domination. Can you see the fnews? http://seethefnews.com/ ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
On Thu, 5 Jun 2008, Ryan Abel wrote: Just ask lcuk, connecting to an access point that doesn't support powersaving will bring your battery life down to about 2 hours. I get about 60 hours out of my N800 with Bluetooth on and wifi connected (WRT54G with tomato). I had some problems where the battery connections shook loose inside the battery pack, causing my tablet to reboot unexpectedly and not charge properly etc. So I was looking at the charging process trying to figure out what was wrong, and then out of curiosity using the battery-status script from http://nitapps.com/ and logging the output. I hadn't realized that the AP is part of the power-saving scheme; there is a power-save option on the tablet under advanced/other in the connection manager. If unchecked, battery life drops from 100 hours to 7 hours on my APs (Dlink at home, Proxim at work). I tried setting the WiFi to 10mW but it didn't make much difference. I agree; the backlight should turn off. With the light on, I estimate 9 hours battery life. http://andrew.daviel.org/N810-FAQ.html#battlast -- Andrew Daviel, TRIUMF, Canada ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
On Jun 5, 2008, at 4:11 PM, Andrew Daviel wrote: On Thu, 5 Jun 2008, Ryan Abel wrote: Just ask lcuk, connecting to an access point that doesn't support powersaving will bring your battery life down to about 2 hours. I get about 60 hours out of my N800 with Bluetooth on and wifi connected (WRT54G with tomato). I hadn't realized that the AP is part of the power-saving scheme; there is a power-save option on the tablet under advanced/other in the connection manager. If unchecked, battery life drops from 100 hours to 7 hours on my APs (Dlink at home, Proxim at work). I tried setting the WiFi to 10mW but it didn't make much difference. The 10mW setting is there to comply with RF regulations in some countries and not there to actually provide meaningful powersaving. ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
On Tue, June 3, 2008 07:53, Marius Gedminas wrote: On Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 08:34:02PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: Marius Gedminas wrote: On Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 09:47:19AM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: When I hit the power button and select lock device, I get an unlock dialog on the screen. And it *stays* on the screen, overnight, in my bag, wherever, until I unlock the device. That's unexpected behavior; it uses power (backlighting is on). Hm. Looks like a bug to me. The screen should turn off after the usual timeout, in my opinion. How long is that, and is it configurable? 3 minutes IIRC and yes. Control panel - Display - Switch off display. It was off when I pulled out of my bag just now, so apparently it does shut off eventually (and when I touched the screen the unlock keypad came back up, so the battery isn't just dead :-)). The device is very good at seamless power savings, but it's possible to install buggy applications that aren't smart enough to sleep when they should and drain the battery faster. Something like that may be going on, though I haven't installed very much. I'm assuming the application would have to be running to make a difference? Yesterday I started the day fully charged, and it spent the day in my shoulder bag, and when I unlocked it near bedtime to read for a little while (not having touched it since I took it off the charger in the morning), the battery was down to 3 days standby, 1 hour active. One thing I know happens now is that touching the screen turns on the backlight while locked. So sitting in the case in my bag may be turning on the backlight a lot, at least when I'm moving the bag around. On the other hand it spent most of the day on the floor, not being moved. I normally use Lock touch screen and keys, but perhaps that's not secure enough for you. Yeah, it's not. The configurations for this have all my email passwords and such in them, and there may be ssh-agent with important keys active, and such. Leading possibly not only to my own servers, but to servers belonging to clients or such. Also my credit card numbers and the account pins and all that. So I try for fairly good security. pwsafe is good for credit card numbers pins -- it always requires a password after about a minute of inactivity. I want to install the maemo version of keepass, since that's what I'm using on Windows and Linux boxes (conveniently). I can migrate the data currently in my Palm to there for the secure bits, so I wouldn't have to worry about the security of the contacts database. Your point is very valid for email passwords and ssh keys. Hm... But that still leaves these being a problem. I can probably just be careful about ssh agent and keys, I don't use it *that* much on the N800. My fallback position on the email config would be to be prepared to change the password there on short notice, which is easy enough to do. It's a bit inelegant. Also anything where the browser is keeping the passwords for me would be at risk. I know *so* many people who have had portable electronic devices lost or stolen, I really do think it's a much bigger threat than desktop systems (I do know some people who have had those stolen as well, but not nearly as many). And, because it's Linux underneath, I tend to think in terms of the level of security I normally try to achieve on my linux boxes. I'm kinda left feeling that security was not considered in the design of the software system for this box. -- David Dyer-Bennet, [EMAIL PROTECTED]; http://dd-b.net/ Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/ Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/ Dragaera: http://dragaera.info ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
On Wed, Jun 04, 2008 at 12:07:49PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: One thing I know happens now is that touching the screen turns on the backlight while locked. So sitting in the case in my bag may be turning That shouln't happen. Touching the screen should no bring the backlight up. However, hitting one of the hard buttons ought to bring it up, so the device can show you how to unlock it. This may have been mentioned before, but did you trying placing it in offline mode before locking? I definitely get better battery time if I do that so the wlan won't kick in as i move between networks it knows or thinks it knows. K -- In Vino Veritas http://astroturfgarden.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 11:14 AM, Marius Gedminas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Jun 04, 2008 at 12:07:49PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: On Tue, June 3, 2008 07:53, Marius Gedminas wrote: The device is very good at seamless power savings, but it's possible to install buggy applications that aren't smart enough to sleep when they should and drain the battery faster. Something like that may be going on, though I haven't installed very much. I'm assuming the application would have to be running to make a difference? Yes. Yesterday I started the day fully charged, Do you mean that the battery icon showed full charge, or that you kept it charging overnight and the charging animation stopped? In my experience the battery icon is very nonlinear: you use the tablet for 4 hours, it shows full charge, then it starts showing less and in 2 more hours of active usage it runs out completely. (The numbers are approximate.) and it spent the day in my shoulder bag, and when I unlocked it near bedtime to read for a little while (not having touched it since I took it off the charger in the morning), Ah, okay, so you answered my question. ;-) the battery was down to 3 days standby, 1 hour active. That's not normal. I don't know what constitutes normal, but that's typical of my unit. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
(Sorry about the duplicate message, David. Accidentally replied off-list the first time.) On Wed, Jun 04, 2008 at 12:07:49PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: Yesterday I started the day fully charged, and it spent the day in my shoulder bag, and when I unlocked it near bedtime to read for a little while (not having touched it since I took it off the charger in the morning), the battery was down to 3 days standby, 1 hour active. One thing I know happens now is that touching the screen turns on the backlight while locked. So sitting in the case in my bag may be turning on the backlight a lot, at least when I'm moving the bag around. On the other hand it spent most of the day on the floor, not being moved. What state did you leave it in when you put it in your bag? I normally carry my N800 in a belt pouch and, if I don't Lock touch screen and keys, the battery will run completely dry (as in I have to hook it up to the charger to get any response at all, and, when I do, it reboots) over the course of several hours, presumably due to the touchscreen being bumped, causing the backlight to trigger. OTOH, once I figured out to lock the screen, I no longer see any appreciable power drain in transport. (Actually, aside from power use, I know that random bumps were registering on the touchscreen due to applications starting up and some of them (such as Maemopad+) showing random scribbling... I first started locking the screen to prevent this; the battery not running down was a happy side-effect.) -- News aggregation meets world domination. Can you see the fnews? http://seethefnews.com/ ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 12:05 PM, Kevin T. Neely [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Jun 04, 2008 at 12:07:49PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: One thing I know happens now is that touching the screen turns on the backlight while locked. So sitting in the case in my bag may be turning That shouln't happen. Touching the screen should no bring the backlight up. However, hitting one of the hard buttons ought to bring it up, so the device can show you how to unlock it. Mine (N800) doesn't come on when the touchscreen is tapped, but does when any of the hard keys is pressed - so it can show the Press the following keys one after the other message. It seems like it shouldn't come on for the hard keys, either, because it's just as easy for one of them to get pressed in a pocket or bag as it is for the touchscreen. If the owner doesn't know the key combination to unlock the device, they shouldn't lock it in the first place. That would be one way to make the device marginally more secure, at least from drive-by snoops. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 11:07 AM, David Dyer-Bennet [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I can probably just be careful about ssh agent and keys, I don't use it *that* much on the N800. My fallback position on the email config would be to be prepared to change the password there on short notice, which is easy enough to do. It's a bit inelegant. Also anything where the browser is keeping the passwords for me would be at risk. I know *so* many people who have had portable electronic devices lost or stolen, I really do think it's a much bigger threat than desktop systems (I do know some people who have had those stolen as well, but not nearly as many). And, because it's Linux underneath, I tend to think in terms of the level of security I normally try to achieve on my linux boxes. I'm kinda left feeling that security was not considered in the design of the software system for this box. ... which is why the whole root situation is so frustrating. They went to great lengths to protect the devices from their legitimate owners, while leaving the owner's data completely and utterly exposed. That's one really good reason why (whether they agree or not) Nokia should have made a decent PIM part of the package out of the box, and it's probably the major reason why they didn't; they didn't want to go to any effort to deal with the security side of it. By pronouncing the devices NOT PDAs they're attempting to absolve themselves of any responsibility on that front. However, there's no justification for assuming people want to carry around another device, especially when with VoIP it's perfectly legitimate to expect some people to do without a smartphone (or maybe even *any* mobile phone) if they have one of these. Why didn't they just force owners login to their tablet like you do in most Linux distros? If they used the same kind of login process as desktop Linux, users could choose whether to autologin if they don't care about security or require logging in if they do. Between that and the lock device feature (which should also have a timeout feature to automatically lock it after a selectable period of inactivity and would work like screensavers that can be set to require a login to exit the screensaver) would go a long way toward satisfying basic security needs. Inclusion of on-the-fly encryption (especially for the removable cards) would round out the package nicely. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
On Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 08:34:02PM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: Marius Gedminas wrote: On Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 09:47:19AM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: When I hit the power button and select lock device, I get an unlock dialog on the screen. And it *stays* on the screen, overnight, in my bag, wherever, until I unlock the device. That's unexpected behavior; it uses power (backlighting is on). Hm. Looks like a bug to me. The screen should turn off after the usual timeout, in my opinion. How long is that, and is it configurable? 3 minutes IIRC and yes. Control panel - Display - Switch off display. It was off when I pulled out of my bag just now, so apparently it does shut off eventually (and when I touched the screen the unlock keypad came back up, so the battery isn't just dead :-)). The device is very good at seamless power savings, but it's possible to install buggy applications that aren't smart enough to sleep when they should and drain the battery faster. I normally use Lock touch screen and keys, but perhaps that's not secure enough for you. Yeah, it's not. The configurations for this have all my email passwords and such in them, and there may be ssh-agent with important keys active, and such. Leading possibly not only to my own servers, but to servers belonging to clients or such. Also my credit card numbers and the account pins and all that. So I try for fairly good security. pwsafe is good for credit card numbers pins -- it always requires a password after about a minute of inactivity. Your point is very valid for email passwords and ssh keys. Hm... Marius Gedminas -- H.323 has much in common with other ITU-T standards - it features a complex binary wire protocol, a nightmarish implementation, and a bulk that can be used to fell medium-to-large predatory animals. -- Anthony Baxter signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Lock, sleep, power-down
I'm apparently confused about the various states I can leave my N800 in. When I hit the power button and select lock device, I get an unlock dialog on the screen. And it *stays* on the screen, overnight, in my bag, wherever, until I unlock the device. That's unexpected behavior; it uses power (backlighting is on). The only other useful option is to power down the device, which requires a full boot to get it back (slow, I'm told it uses a lot of power). Is there a preference somewhere I've messed with causing this? Or that I could mess with to make this go away? I want some way to set the device into low-power-consumption mode quickly, easily, and securely, and then bring it back quickly, easily, and securely when I need it (entering a lock code is acceptably easy). And I worry about heat issues if I put the N800 in the slip case and the slip case in my shoulder bag and walk around outside during the summer while the device is also running the screen and backlight. -- David Dyer-Bennet, [EMAIL PROTECTED]; http://dd-b.net/ Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/ Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/ Dragaera: http://dragaera.info ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
On Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 09:47:19AM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: I'm apparently confused about the various states I can leave my N800 in. When I hit the power button and select lock device, I get an unlock dialog on the screen. And it *stays* on the screen, overnight, in my bag, wherever, until I unlock the device. That's unexpected behavior; it uses power (backlighting is on). Hm. Looks like a bug to me. The screen should turn off after the usual timeout, in my opinion. The only other useful option is to power down the device, which requires a full boot to get it back (slow, I'm told it uses a lot of power). Is there a preference somewhere I've messed with causing this? Or that I could mess with to make this go away? I want some way to set the device into low-power-consumption mode quickly, easily, and securely, and then bring it back quickly, easily, and securely when I need it (entering a lock code is acceptably easy). I normally use Lock touch screen and keys, but perhaps that's not secure enough for you. Marius Gedminas -- A Law of Computer Programming: Make it possible for programmers to write in English and you will find that programmers cannot write in English. signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Lock, sleep, power-down
Marius Gedminas wrote: On Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 09:47:19AM -0500, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: I'm apparently confused about the various states I can leave my N800 in. When I hit the power button and select lock device, I get an unlock dialog on the screen. And it *stays* on the screen, overnight, in my bag, wherever, until I unlock the device. That's unexpected behavior; it uses power (backlighting is on). Hm. Looks like a bug to me. The screen should turn off after the usual timeout, in my opinion. How long is that, and is it configurable? It was off when I pulled out of my bag just now, so apparently it does shut off eventually (and when I touched the screen the unlock keypad came back up, so the battery isn't just dead :-)). The only other useful option is to power down the device, which requires a full boot to get it back (slow, I'm told it uses a lot of power). Is there a preference somewhere I've messed with causing this? Or that I could mess with to make this go away? I want some way to set the device into low-power-consumption mode quickly, easily, and securely, and then bring it back quickly, easily, and securely when I need it (entering a lock code is acceptably easy). I normally use Lock touch screen and keys, but perhaps that's not secure enough for you. Yeah, it's not. The configurations for this have all my email passwords and such in them, and there may be ssh-agent with important keys active, and such. Leading possibly not only to my own servers, but to servers belonging to clients or such. Also my credit card numbers and the account pins and all that. So I try for fairly good security. -- David Dyer-Bennet, [EMAIL PROTECTED]; http://dd-b.net/ Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/ Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/ Dragaera: http://dragaera.info ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
