Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently
Hi, ext Denis Dimick wrote: Yes, I had poor battery usage, not even 8 hours, I had a few .mov files and .mpg files that caused the problem, some of them did not have the proper codec to be played by the Media Player. Here's a bit more: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17365 This thread didn't mention any specific .mov or .mpg files that would trigger issues with the crawler. To fix the bugs we need to get the files to see what in them causes (crawler metadata extractors) to go boinkers. - Eero ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently
Hi, ext Denis Dimick wrote: I was suffering from the same sort of problem Battery usage / use-time? I found that if I cleaned all my MP3's and Movies off of my internal SD card the problem went away. There may be some specific audio or video files that trigger bugs in libraries that metalayer-crawler uses for extracting the metadata information from these files. So far we know only single problematic WMV file[1], it would be nice if you could debug this issue a bit more to pinpoint the specific file that causes the issues (is it mp3 or video file etc). - Eero [1] Gstreamer issue: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1842 ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently
Eero, Yes, I had poor battery usage, not even 8 hours, I had a few .mov files and .mpg files that caused the problem, some of them did not have the proper codec to be played by the Media Player. Here's a bit more: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17365 HtH, Denis On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 4:07 AM, Eero Tamminen [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Hi, ext Denis Dimick wrote: I was suffering from the same sort of problem Battery usage / use-time? I found that if I cleaned all my MP3's and Movies off of my internal SD card the problem went away. There may be some specific audio or video files that trigger bugs in libraries that metalayer-crawler uses for extracting the metadata information from these files. So far we know only single problematic WMV file[1], it would be nice if you could debug this issue a bit more to pinpoint the specific file that causes the issues (is it mp3 or video file etc). - Eero [1] Gstreamer issue: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1842 ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently
I was suffering from the same sort of problem, I found that if I cleaned all my MP3's and Movies off of my internal SD card the problem went away. Not sure if this helps, Denis On Wed, Aug 6, 2008 at 1:23 AM, Frantisek Dufka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Igor Stoppa wrote: On Tue, 2008-08-05 at 19:30 +0300, ext Eero Tamminen wrote: When you're not using the device, I would recommend putting it to offline mode, that's an option in the power-button menu that disables all radios in the device (next time you need to use net, just OK a dialog that the device gives you). This can make a large difference if you have processes that like to often check things from the network. (above could be added to good answers about battery usage I guess) Well, it's a workaround, but the right answer is that those processes are obviously buggy and must be fixed. I'm playing with other ugly workaround - sending SIGSTOP when touchscreen/keys are locked and SIGCONT when unlocking to such buggy processes. Works nice for browser or scummvm :-) Once I finetune list of suitable tasks it would work like real device suspend :-) Frantisek ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I also set audio volume to zero most of the time. It actually shuts up the little motif it plays during startup. so I can turn it one where I have to be quiet. You can also disable just system sounds (Sounds control panel applet). BTW skype is buggy and does not ring when system sounds are disabled, should Skype bugs go to maemo bugzilla? I'd say yes. Frantisek ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently
Igor Stoppa wrote: On Tue, 2008-08-05 at 19:30 +0300, ext Eero Tamminen wrote: When you're not using the device, I would recommend putting it to offline mode, that's an option in the power-button menu that disables all radios in the device (next time you need to use net, just OK a dialog that the device gives you). This can make a large difference if you have processes that like to often check things from the network. (above could be added to good answers about battery usage I guess) Well, it's a workaround, but the right answer is that those processes are obviously buggy and must be fixed. I'm playing with other ugly workaround - sending SIGSTOP when touchscreen/keys are locked and SIGCONT when unlocking to such buggy processes. Works nice for browser or scummvm :-) Once I finetune list of suitable tasks it would work like real device suspend :-) Frantisek ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently
Hi, ext Rick Bilonick wrote: On Wed, 2008-07-16 at 13:54 -0600, Dr. Nicholas Shaw wrote: Thanks. I removed all of the home apps as suggested by another responder (I didn't remove the homeip app because I find it very useful.) That was early yesterday and the N810 has not reset itself since then nor have I gotten the intensive cpu usage message. The N810 is only about 6 weeks old. The battery seems to drain awfully quickly, and more quickly since I had the misbehaving apps causing intense cpu usage and frequent resets (I believe the intense cpu usage caused the resets). I'm wondering if this has drastically shortened the life of the battery. Some things that you can try through SSH connection to check this better: - top: is anything using CPU at all i.e. waking too often (0.1% is too much when program isn't doing anything for you)? - xresponse -w 0 -i: is anything updating the screen unnecessarily. After screen blanks, there should be *no* screen updates - strace -p PID of suspicious process: is process waking up frequently or accessing network? strace and xresponse can be installed with instructions from here: http://maemo.org/development/tools/ When you're not using the device, I would recommend putting it to offline mode, that's an option in the power-button menu that disables all radios in the device (next time you need to use net, just OK a dialog that the device gives you). This can make a large difference if you have processes that like to often check things from the network. (above could be added to good answers about battery usage I guess) - Eero PS. SSH connection is needed as using the above console tools from XTerm would take too much CPU, do screen updates etc. ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently
On Tue, 2008-08-05 at 19:30 +0300, ext Eero Tamminen wrote: When you're not using the device, I would recommend putting it to offline mode, that's an option in the power-button menu that disables all radios in the device (next time you need to use net, just OK a dialog that the device gives you). This can make a large difference if you have processes that like to often check things from the network. (above could be added to good answers about battery usage I guess) Well, it's a workaround, but the right answer is that those processes are obviously buggy and must be fixed. -- Cheers, Igor --- Igor Stoppa Maemo Software - Nokia Devices RD - Helsinki ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently
On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 07:30:08PM +0300, Eero Tamminen wrote: When you're not using the device, I would recommend putting it to offline mode, that's an option in the power-button menu that disables all radios in the device (next time you need to use net, just OK a dialog that the device gives you). This can make a large difference if you have processes that like to often check things from the network. I also set audio volume to zero most of the time. It actually shuts up the little motif it plays during startup. so I can turn it one where I have to be quiet. -- hendrik ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
Am Mittwoch, den 16.07.2008, 15:51 -0400 schrieb Ryan Abel: But I'd rather see the guided submission form get some traction moving forward (somebody else will have to come up with the URL, I'm in retard-mode at the moment and can't find it). something like https://bugs.maemo.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=applicationsformat=guided ? Karsten has, apparently, been working on this, hopefully we'll see it implemented soon. ;) It's much more helpful overall than a simple template. andre -- Andre Klapper (maemo.org bugmaster) ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
RE: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently
On Wed, 2008-07-16 at 13:54 -0600, Dr. Nicholas Shaw wrote: No problem Rick. A different approach is to determine which applications are running. For example, I always have my calendar and todo list up but minimized. Those would count. I also run Personal Menu and Maemo PAN. So these four programs are always running although they may not be visible. Another program that sometimes runs always is x11vnc to allow me to display my N800 screen onto my desktop. So, for me, I would: 1. First shut the system down and remove the battery (to ensure all registers are cleared) for about 3 minutes (arbitrary). 2. Then, reinsert the battery. 3. Boot the device up. 4. In my case I would not start x11vnc or maemo PAN. These are TSR (terminate/stay resident) programs that run in the background. 5. If you have a sense of how often the system resets and you can allow the system to sit there for some time to determine if any of the programs you stopped running had an effect then depending upon how many programs that is you can start them up one-by-one waiting a sufficient time between each to see if the system restarts. If it does then you may have identified which program is causing the problem. If you did a restore from your older OS (especially 2007) then you may want to do a reflash and NOT do a restore of your backup. I've found that, occasionally, the backups aren't compatible with the new OS release and that can cause problems. I had to manually back up my data, e.g. I backed up my favorites and my documents folder to a memory card and what I couldn't backup I re-entered later. It was a pain but it worked. Hope this helps as a starter. Regards, Nick. -Original Message- From: Rick Bilonick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 19:58 To: Dr. Nicholas Shaw Subject: RE: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 10:26 -0600, Dr. Nicholas Shaw wrote: Mark, I went to the link and read it. I actually feel it is helpful. This week I submitted 4 bug reports for both software and the OS. The author stated his system was resetting and that he had lots of software installed. Obvious questions would be if there's any particular action that causes the system to reset or if it's random. What programs are running when the system resets, how often does it reset, etc. What was he doing when it reset? What software was installed? Of course I would also want to know what, specifically, he means by reset as some people have different definitions. Lastly (this is particular to me), I would want to know what he restored from his backups (if he had any) and from what OS did he go from. The link, IMO, provides helpful information to help flesh these out. I don't believe Igor meant anything else. The link is a good set of pointers for submitting a bug fix. My system might reset but that doesn't mean they're related. The only thing it indicates is that there are two people who have systems that are doing something (until a definition is agreed upon) that isn't good. Regards, Nick. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 09:37 To: maemo-users@maemo.org Subject: Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 8:12 AM, Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html This is not helpful and in fact is inflammatory. When one has a problem with a device it is helpful to find out if others are having the same problem, and may have already solved it. If so, great. If no one else is having the same problem, then it's probably an installed app rather than the OS. Then one can start narrowing down suspects as to the cause. People have to start somewhere, and why should they duplicate efforts that others have already made, or go to great lengths to fix something that is impossible because it's a bug in the OS? RTFM is *never* an acceptable response. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users ___ I did try to determine which application might be involved but could not determine this. I keep getting messages about intensive cpu usage and I just using the browser and bookmarks. Rick B. Thanks. I removed all of the home apps as suggested by another responder (I didn't remove the homeip app because I find it very useful.) That was early yesterday and the N810 has not reset itself since then nor have I gotten the intensive cpu usage message. The N810 is only about 6 weeks old. The battery seems to drain awfully quickly, and more quickly since I had the misbehaving apps causing intense cpu usage
Re: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
ext Kalle Valo wrote: FREQUENCY OF OCCURRENCE: (always, less than 1/10, 5/10, 9/10) Remove the word always from the template. The reason being that usually the reporter is able to reproduce the bug two times and concludes that it happens always. But in reality that might well not be the case, and marking it as 2/2 would be a lot more informative for the developer. Then what about something like this? FREQUENCY OF OCCURRENCE: (happened X times out of Y trials) Ciao, Alberto -- http://www.mardy.it -- Geek in un lingua international! ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 15:45 -0400, ext Ryan Abel wrote: Well, there is a template (not exactly the same, but very similar) being used. It looks like: Ok, I did some sampling of existing bugs but maybe it has been introduced recently (?) But I'd rather see the guided submission form get some traction moving forward (somebody else will have to come up with the URL, I'm in retard-mode at the moment and can't find it). Karsten has, apparently, been working on this, hopefully we'll see it implemented soon. ;) It's much more helpful overall than a simple template. :-/ Maybe I'm just getting old, but i'm not sensitive to the lures of forms. Free text mode seems to be the most simple and flexible approach. I don't know if you are based in the US. I am not and usually I get very pissed off at web sites where one has to introduce some data that makes perfectly sense for US customers and for them only. Because the person designing the form cannot possibly address all the cases that useres will want to represent. So i cherish free form text. I hope that if the bug submission is going to be transformed into a form mode, no field will be mandatory and there will still be the option of leaving free form comments. -- Cheers, Igor --- Igor Stoppa Maemo Software - Nokia Devices RD - Helsinki ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 15:45 -0400, ext Ryan Abel wrote: Well, there is a template (not exactly the same, but very similar) being used. It looks like: Ok, I did some sampling of existing bugs but maybe it has been introduced recently (?) Don't think so. I did submitted some bugs over the last year and, as far as I remember, it was always there. About the always, I too suggest it should be there. For example bug #3304 can be always reproduced. No matter what software you've installed or if it a fresh install. So i cherish free form text. Me too. I hope that if the bug submission is going to be transformed into a form mode, no field will be mandatory and there will still be the option of leaving free form comments. I agree with you. -- anidel ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
ext Alberto Mardegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ext Kalle Valo wrote: FREQUENCY OF OCCURRENCE: (always, less than 1/10, 5/10, 9/10) Remove the word always from the template. The reason being that usually the reporter is able to reproduce the bug two times and concludes that it happens always. But in reality that might well not be the case, and marking it as 2/2 would be a lot more informative for the developer. Then what about something like this? FREQUENCY OF OCCURRENCE: (happened X times out of Y trials) Sounds good to me. -- Kalle Valo ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
ext Aniello Del Sorbo [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: About the always, I too suggest it should be there. My point was that the meaning of the word always is not precise. It would be a lot better if the bug report says always, tested two times. That way I can know that the bug might need to be tested quite a few times before seeing it. For example bug #3304 can be always reproduced. No matter what software you've installed or if it a fresh install. Of course there are bugs which have probability of 100%, I guess most of the bugs are like that. But there are also tricky bugs which have, for example, a probability of 10% and that's why it's important to know how many times the reporter has tested it. This is the reason why I prefer always to use M/N notation. But this is a minor issue, we shouldn't waste too much time on this. -- Kalle Valo ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Kalle Valo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ext Aniello Del Sorbo [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: About the always, I too suggest it should be there. My point was that the meaning of the word always is not precise. It would be a lot better if the bug report says always, tested two times. That way I can know that the bug might need to be tested quite a few times before seeing it. For example bug #3304 can be always reproduced. No matter what software you've installed or if it a fresh install. Of course there are bugs which have probability of 100%, I guess most of the bugs are like that. But there are also tricky bugs which have, for example, a probability of 10% and that's why it's important to know how many times the reporter has tested it. This is the reason why I prefer always to use M/N notation. But this is a minor issue, we shouldn't waste too much time on this. Yup. It's clear what you mean. I support the notation then. -- anidel ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 4:28 AM, Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 15:45 -0400, ext Ryan Abel wrote: Well, there is a template (not exactly the same, but very similar) being used. It looks like: Ok, I did some sampling of existing bugs but maybe it has been introduced recently (?) It's been in there since 2007 at least, you could probably poke timeless if you really want an exact date. But I'd rather see the guided submission form get some traction moving forward (somebody else will have to come up with the URL, I'm in retard-mode at the moment and can't find it). Karsten has, apparently, been working on this, hopefully we'll see it implemented soon. ;) It's much more helpful overall than a simple template. :-/ Maybe I'm just getting old, but i'm not sensitive to the lures of forms. Free text mode seems to be the most simple and flexible approach. I think you're probably misunderstanding the purpose and execution of the guided form (I _really_ wish I could remember/find the URL). Basically, it's more or less like the current submission form, except with lots of helpful annotations beside each field to help people figure out what sort of information to put in there. The free-form comment field is still available. I don't know if you are based in the US. I am not and usually I get very pissed off at web sites where one has to introduce some data that makes perfectly sense for US customers and for them only. Because the person designing the form cannot possibly address all the cases that useres will want to represent. So i cherish free form text. I hope that if the bug submission is going to be transformed into a form mode, no field will be mandatory and there will still be the option of leaving free form comments. Well, people with canconfirm and editbugs wont see it, they'll still see the existing form. As somebody who triages a lot of bugs, and deals daily with users who don't understand the current submission form, the guided form would definitely make my job easier (which also makes things easier for developers, since I'm a lazy person ;)). ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
Just taking a moment here to plug maemo-community, as discussions like there really belong over there. So, go subscribe! :D https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently
On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 10:09 -0400, ext Rick Bilonick wrote: I flashed the latest version of maemo (the last one before Diablo). I've also installed a lot of extra software. Now the N810 resets itself a lot but I can't discern why or how to fix it. http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html -- Cheers, Igor --- Igor Stoppa Maemo Software - Nokia Devices RD - Helsinki ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 8:12 AM, Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html This is not helpful and in fact is inflammatory. When one has a problem with a device it is helpful to find out if others are having the same problem, and may have already solved it. If so, great. If no one else is having the same problem, then it's probably an installed app rather than the OS. Then one can start narrowing down suspects as to the cause. People have to start somewhere, and why should they duplicate efforts that others have already made, or go to great lengths to fix something that is impossible because it's a bug in the OS? RTFM is *never* an acceptable response. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently
I have to agree that RTFM is a painful response, Here's what I'd do. 1. Backup all your data. 2. Restore to the current version you are running. 3. DONT restore your applications. Just restore your data. 4. Install one application at a time until you see the same behavior your seeing now. - Keep a list of what you installed. This may be the problem application. 5. Do a new restore, don't allow the applications to be installed. 6. Reinstall all applications up to the one that caused the reboot. - See if the Nokia is stable. 7. If it's not stable, go back the the bug report and tell everyone what applications you had installed and which one you added that caused your system to become unstable. HtH, Denis On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 9:36 AM, Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 8:12 AM, Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.htmlhttp://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/%7Esgtatham/bugs.html This is not helpful and in fact is inflammatory. When one has a problem with a device it is helpful to find out if others are having the same problem, and may have already solved it. If so, great. If no one else is having the same problem, then it's probably an installed app rather than the OS. Then one can start narrowing down suspects as to the cause. People have to start somewhere, and why should they duplicate efforts that others have already made, or go to great lengths to fix something that is impossible because it's a bug in the OS? RTFM is *never* an acceptable response. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently
Have you tried uninstalling the additional software you added, one-at-a-time, to determine if one of the third party packages is causing your problem? What steps have you taken to investigate the issue? -- =W On 7/15/08, Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 8:12 AM, Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html This is not helpful and in fact is inflammatory. When one has a problem with a device it is helpful to find out if others are having the same problem, and may have already solved it. If so, great. If no one else is having the same problem, then it's probably an installed app rather than the OS. Then one can start narrowing down suspects as to the cause. People have to start somewhere, and why should they duplicate efforts that others have already made, or go to great lengths to fix something that is impossible because it's a bug in the OS? RTFM is *never* an acceptable response. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently
ext Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 8:12 AM, Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html This is not helpful and in fact is inflammatory. I have no clue what inflammatory means (and I'm too lazy to find out), but the link Igor provided was helpful. I recommend you to calm down and just read it. Or better yet, read it twice. I'll definitely start using this link in bad bug reports. Igor, this is just what I have needed, grazie! When one has a problem with a device it is helpful to find out if others are having the same problem, and may have already solved it. If so, great. If no one else is having the same problem, then it's probably an installed app rather than the OS. Then one can start narrowing down suspects as to the cause. People have to start somewhere, and why should they duplicate efforts that others have already made, or go to great lengths to fix something that is impossible because it's a bug in the OS? So basically you want others do all the work for you? It doesn't work that way. Try to show that you have tried to do something to solve the problem, for example by writing as much as info as possible. That way people might be a bit more motivated to answer. RTFM is *never* an acceptable response. That's the best way to learn and educate yourself, and in the end you get better results. But if you insist doing everything your way, don't be surprised if people are not willing to help you. -- Kalle Valo ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
RE: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently
Mark, I went to the link and read it. I actually feel it is helpful. This week I submitted 4 bug reports for both software and the OS. The author stated his system was resetting and that he had lots of software installed. Obvious questions would be if there's any particular action that causes the system to reset or if it's random. What programs are running when the system resets, how often does it reset, etc. What was he doing when it reset? What software was installed? Of course I would also want to know what, specifically, he means by reset as some people have different definitions. Lastly (this is particular to me), I would want to know what he restored from his backups (if he had any) and from what OS did he go from. The link, IMO, provides helpful information to help flesh these out. I don't believe Igor meant anything else. The link is a good set of pointers for submitting a bug fix. My system might reset but that doesn't mean they're related. The only thing it indicates is that there are two people who have systems that are doing something (until a definition is agreed upon) that isn't good. Regards, Nick. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 09:37 To: maemo-users@maemo.org Subject: Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 8:12 AM, Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html This is not helpful and in fact is inflammatory. When one has a problem with a device it is helpful to find out if others are having the same problem, and may have already solved it. If so, great. If no one else is having the same problem, then it's probably an installed app rather than the OS. Then one can start narrowing down suspects as to the cause. People have to start somewhere, and why should they duplicate efforts that others have already made, or go to great lengths to fix something that is impossible because it's a bug in the OS? RTFM is *never* an acceptable response. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently
On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 09:36 -0600, ext Mark wrote: RTFM is *never* an acceptable response. In fact my response was Learn how to describe problems. Far more useful than fixing any specific bug, imho. -- Cheers, Igor --- Igor Stoppa Maemo Software - Nokia Devices RD - Helsinki ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently
Hi Kalle, Kalle Valo wrote: ext Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: When one has a problem with a device it is helpful to find out if others are having the same problem, and may have already solved it. snip So basically you want others do all the work for you? It doesn't work that way. Try to show that you have tried to do something to solve the problem, for example by writing as much as info as possible. That way people might be a bit more motivated to answer. Are you sure you haven't misinterpreted Mark here? It seems to me like the original question was Is this happening to anyone else? which is a reasonable question to ask on a users list. Asking him to search Bugzilla and/or read a FAQ for Diablo might have been good answers, as would be First I've heard of it - looks like you'll have to dig deeper, which is probably what I'd've said. RTFM is *never* an acceptable response. That's the best way to learn and educate yourself, and in the end you get better results. But if you insist doing everything your way, don't be surprised if people are not willing to help you. I remember many years ago explaining that how you say RTFM is what's important. There are a myriad of ways to do so. 1. RTFM Variants: link to a page explaining how to RTFM, or a page on asking smart questions, with no context 2. RTFM. Here's a link to the manual/docs/HOWTO/FAQ: http://... 3. This looks like a problem someone reported a while back... have you searched the archives of the mailing list and checked the FAQ? It seems similar to http://link.to.the.faq/q2-1.html That is: there's a difference between being nice and not nice, or welcoming and unwelcoming. Cheers, Dave. -- maemo.org docsmaster Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:26 AM, Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 09:36 -0600, ext Mark wrote: RTFM is *never* an acceptable response. In fact my response was Learn how to describe problems. Far more useful than fixing any specific bug, imho. ... by RTFM-ing something that has nothing to do with the problem. It's just as useful to ask specific questions. If the other person doesn't know where to start, reading something that tells them how to describe a problem isn't going to help. When you're stuck on a problem, the last thing you need is for someone to tell you to go learn in a few hours what it takes everybody else years to learn. What you need is a new perspective, and for someone to point you in the right direction or (GASP!) actually give you the benefit of their experience. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:25 AM, Kalle Valo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ext Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 8:12 AM, Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html This is not helpful and in fact is inflammatory. I have no clue what inflammatory means Clearly. (and I'm too lazy to find out), ...but below you call other people lazy. How hypocritical of you... but the link Igor provided was helpful. I recommend you to calm down and just read it. Or better yet, read it twice. I've seen (and read) this many times, and the link is always sent by some arrogant jerk who has no respect for others and their differences. The article is written with the same attitude that everyone should have the same (high) level of knowledge and ability. It's unrealistic. Yes, there's some good information in there, but the bottom line is the attitude that there's no place for the novice, and the burden of finding and solving bugs is on the poor hapless soul who innocently installs some app that then causes them major headaches. Get real! When I first took Computer Science classes in the early 1980s (prior to Micro$oft's deplorable influence on the industry), one of the basic and emphatically enforced rules was that one was responsible for one's own code, and that one was obligated to write code that gracefully handled errors and exceptions as well as run comprehensive testing and fully document the code. Unfortunately, by the late 1990s, that had changed, and now developers seem to think that they have no responsibility whatsoever to write decent code or provide decent documentation. I'll definitely start using this link in bad bug reports. Igor, this is just what I have needed, grazie! When one has a problem with a device it is helpful to find out if others are having the same problem, and may have already solved it. If so, great. If no one else is having the same problem, then it's probably an installed app rather than the OS. Then one can start narrowing down suspects as to the cause. People have to start somewhere, and why should they duplicate efforts that others have already made, or go to great lengths to fix something that is impossible because it's a bug in the OS? So basically you want others do all the work for you? It doesn't work that way. Try to show that you have tried to do something to solve the problem, for example by writing as much as info as possible. That way people might be a bit more motivated to answer. No, but obviously *you* do. You also don't see a problem with hundreds of people doing exactly the same work in parallel, wasting huge amounts of effort and time when it's much more efficient and helpful for people to be in communication and not duplicate each others' efforts. RTFM is *never* an acceptable response. That's the best way to learn and educate yourself, and in the end you get better results. No, it most certainly is NOT the best way to learn and educate yourself. Even if you ignore the fact that The Manual is frequently poorly written and hard to understand, not everyone learns in the same way, and for some it is *particularly* difficult to learn and understand just by reading printed words. There are kinesthetic learners, visual learners, and auditory learners. But nearly everyone can follow specific, concise, step-by-step instructions - the kind that The Manual almost NEVER supplies... But if you insist doing everything your way, don't be surprised if people are not willing to help you. There's the pot calling the kettle black. I'm the one who's saying that flexibility and communication is key. You're the one insisting that your way is the only acceptable way. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently
On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 10:57 -0600, ext Mark wrote: ... by RTFM-ing something that has nothing to do with the problem. I think the message do ut des was quite clear. Make an effort to explain your problem and you might be helped. End of transmission. -- Cheers, Igor --- Igor Stoppa Maemo Software - Nokia Devices RD - Helsinki ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently
A a Flamewar, can we do Vi vers. Emacs next? Ducks and runs away.. Denis On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 11:10 AM, Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 10:57 -0600, ext Mark wrote: ... by RTFM-ing something that has nothing to do with the problem. I think the message do ut des was quite clear. Make an effort to explain your problem and you might be helped. End of transmission. -- Cheers, Igor --- Igor Stoppa Maemo Software - Nokia Devices RD - Helsinki ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently
ext Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Kalle, Hello Dave, When one has a problem with a device it is helpful to find out if others are having the same problem, and may have already solved it. snip So basically you want others do all the work for you? It doesn't work that way. Try to show that you have tried to do something to solve the problem, for example by writing as much as info as possible. That way people might be a bit more motivated to answer. Are you sure you haven't misinterpreted Mark here? No idea. Maybe, wouldn't be the first :) It seems to me like the original question was Is this happening to anyone else? which is a reasonable question to ask on a users list. Still I think the original poster should do more than just say that my device reboots. He should explain what version he is using, did he install any applications, what kind of network environment he has etc. It would take only 10 minutes of his time but it would have helped a lot. Asking him to search Bugzilla and/or read a FAQ for Diablo might have been good answers, as would be First I've heard of it - looks like you'll have to dig deeper, which is probably what I'd've said. [...] That is: there's a difference between being nice and not nice, or welcoming and unwelcoming. You have a point, of course. Usually if someone is nice to me, I'm nice to him as well. But Igor gave a good link to the original poster and all he got back was flaming. Well, that wasn't nice. Original poster spent one minute writing the email, Igor spent a second with the reply. Had the original poster spent 10 minutes writing the email, Igor might have very well spent a minute writing a (better) answer. What I'm trying to say here is that there's a correlation how much time you spend on solving the problem and how good answers you get. -- Kalle Valo ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 10:40 AM, Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are you sure you haven't misinterpreted Mark here? It seems to me like the original question was Is this happening to anyone else? which is a reasonable question to ask on a users list. Asking him to search Bugzilla and/or read a FAQ for Diablo might have been good answers, as would be First I've heard of it - looks like you'll have to dig deeper, which is probably what I'd've said. That was, in fact, my point. But some people don't seem to think that it's a reasonable question. These people generally feel that I had to learn this the hard way, so you should too... I had the opposite problem recently, stemming from the same kind of question. I wanted to know if others were having the same problem I've had in refreshing the application list in App Manager. All I wanted was a yes or no, but received pointers to troubleshoot the problem. Don't get me wrong; I appreciate the consideration and would *much* rather have that problem than have people telling me to RTFM, but I had already done most of the things that were suggested and wanted to know 1) if I was the only one who had noticed the issue and 2) if there was a patch, trick or some other permanent fix rather than workarounds. As someone who *does* put some serious effort into doing my own troubleshooting before asking for help, it is highly irritating to be told to RTFM when I've already done it and didn't find any help. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 11:14 AM, Kalle Valo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ext Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Kalle, Hello Dave, When one has a problem with a device it is helpful to find out if others are having the same problem, and may have already solved it. snip So basically you want others do all the work for you? It doesn't work that way. Try to show that you have tried to do something to solve the problem, for example by writing as much as info as possible. That way people might be a bit more motivated to answer. Are you sure you haven't misinterpreted Mark here? No idea. Maybe, wouldn't be the first :) It seems to me like the original question was Is this happening to anyone else? which is a reasonable question to ask on a users list. Still I think the original poster should do more than just say that my device reboots. He should explain what version he is using, did he install any applications, what kind of network environment he has etc. It would take only 10 minutes of his time but it would have helped a lot. ...provided he even knows what a network environment is, how to find the version, etc. You are demanding a certain level of knowledge and skill that seems trivial to you but monumental to some. As I said, sometimes people don't even know how to start, and need some *specific* pointers to get going. Asking him to search Bugzilla and/or read a FAQ for Diablo might have been good answers, as would be First I've heard of it - looks like you'll have to dig deeper, which is probably what I'd've said. [...] That is: there's a difference between being nice and not nice, or welcoming and unwelcoming. You have a point, of course. Usually if someone is nice to me, I'm nice to him as well. But Igor gave a good link to the original poster and all he got back was flaming. Well, that wasn't nice. Original poster spent one minute writing the email, Igor spent a second with the reply. Had the original poster spent 10 minutes writing the email, Igor might have very well spent a minute writing a (better) answer. What I'm trying to say here is that there's a correlation how much time you spend on solving the problem and how good answers you get. -- Kalle Valo Once again, the old everybody else should suffer just as much as I have to get what I've got. That's not how life works. Everything you know and have is built on the work of people who came before you. Regardless of your opinion, you did NOT get where you are all by yourself. If there *is* a manual, then somebody had to write it. The point is to make life *easier* for those who come after, not harder. Whether you want to admit it or not, you've benefited from others' experience and have a responsibility to mankind to pass on your experience to others without begrudging it. There's only a correlation on time spent solving a problem and the answers one is given if the one (NOT!) giving the answers is a jerk. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently
On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 11:14 AM, Kalle Valo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Still I think the original poster should do more than just say that my device reboots. He should explain what version he is using, did he install any applications, what kind of network environment he has etc. It would take only 10 minutes of his time but it would have helped a lot. ...and it would take 0 minutes to not say anything at all. The problem is that people who ask dumb questions aren't simply ignored. Others take the opportunity - using their own precious time - to treat them badly. To ask the questions above would not have taken any longer than finding, copying and pasting that irrelevant link. If you can't/won't actually answer the question or ask constructive questions that would help identify the problem, why take the time to be rude? Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently
On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 19:25 +0300, Kalle Valo wrote: ext Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 8:12 AM, Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html This is not helpful and in fact is inflammatory. I have no clue what inflammatory means (and I'm too lazy to find out), but the link Igor provided was helpful. I recommend you to calm down and just read it. Or better yet, read it twice. I'll definitely start using this link in bad bug reports. Igor, this is just what I have needed, grazie! Please don't. Or at least, don't do it without any other comment. Remember you may be dealing with a real, non-tech-savvy user. He might not know how to better describe the issue, he may be confronted with a problem he doesn't have any idea how to investigate, why it started happening, or even what's going on at all. If you need more information, tell the user. Try to explain what info you'll need, what he should be looking for, and what might be related however unlikely it may seem for a user. If the report lacks the most important (or any, FWIW) information, also please tell him. Be polite and treat him as an adult. The point is not about the link. My point is about throwing a bare URI at the user, with absolutely no conversation or responding to the user. This will be perceived as rude. If you're polite, talk to the user and help him understand, you're more likely to get the user to respond, add the missing bits, and end up with a happy user (read: customer). -- Karsten Bräckelmann -- maemo.org bugmaster ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently
Let's try again. ext Rick Bilonick wrote: I flashed the latest version of maemo (the last one before Diablo). I've also installed a lot of extra software. Now the N810 resets itself a lot but I can't discern why or how to fix it. With that description the shortest way to solve your problem look like this: - Write down all the apps you have installed. - Backup any relevant data and reflash again. - Check that you can boot and use the stock software without problems. - Install additional software from the diablo extras repository only, if possible application after application leaving one day or so to check that everything is fine. - Be really careful installing anything out of diablo extras. Take your time checking that the system is still stable after each installation. - If you find a problem after installing an application report it to the developers of that project. They might be interested in your case. If you are happy with the solution above, please paste it in a page at http://wiki.maemo.org and improve it as much as you wish. This way very skilled developers like Igor or Kalle can concentrate on their stuff instead of getting in the middle of a flame after trying to help - in their way. Thanks. -- Quim Gil marketing manager, open source Maemo Software @ Nokia ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
RE: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently
Ooohh, that would be a good one. J Nick. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Denis Dimick Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 11:14 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: maemo-users@maemo.org Subject: Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently A a Flamewar, can we do Vi vers. Emacs next? Ducks and runs away.. Denis On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 11:10 AM, Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 10:57 -0600, ext Mark wrote: ... by RTFM-ing something that has nothing to do with the problem. I think the message do ut des was quite clear. Make an effort to explain your problem and you might be helped. End of transmission. -- Cheers, Igor --- Igor Stoppa Maemo Software - Nokia Devices RD - Helsinki ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently
ext Karsten Bräckelmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 19:25 +0300, Kalle Valo wrote: ext Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 8:12 AM, Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html This is not helpful and in fact is inflammatory. I have no clue what inflammatory means (and I'm too lazy to find out), but the link Igor provided was helpful. I recommend you to calm down and just read it. Or better yet, read it twice. I'll definitely start using this link in bad bug reports. Igor, this is just what I have needed, grazie! Please don't. Or at least, don't do it without any other comment. Don't worry, I will definitely comment more than just a link. I'll let the reporter know what are the specific problems with the report, and only after that I will recommend reading the essay. I have been planning for many years write something about how to make good bug reports, but never had the time. Usually the biggest problem with bug reports I receive is that they are not precise enough. I think the author of the essay summed up it quite nicely: * Be specific. * Be verbose. * Be careful of pronouns. * Read what you wrote. http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html Remember you may be dealing with a real, non-tech-savvy user. He might not know how to better describe the issue, he may be confronted with a problem he doesn't have any idea how to investigate, why it started happening, or even what's going on at all. If you need more information, tell the user. Try to explain what info you'll need, what he should be looking for, and what might be related however unlikely it may seem for a user. If the report lacks the most important (or any, FWIW) information, also please tell him. Be polite and treat him as an adult. That's a very good summary how a bug owner should behave. Maybe you should write an essay about that? :) The point is not about the link. My point is about throwing a bare URI at the user, with absolutely no conversation or responding to the user. This will be perceived as rude. If you're polite, talk to the user and help him understand, you're more likely to get the user to respond, add the missing bits, and end up with a happy user (read: customer). Thanks for the good hints. I'll print it next to my workstation so whenever I receive a bad bug report, I'll read it, take a deep breath and answer politely. -- Kalle Valo ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
ext Kalle Valo wrote: That's a very good summary how a bug owner should behave. Maybe you should write an essay about that? :) Instead, he and others are writing https://wiki.maemo.org/Bugs:Stock_answers You (plural) might want to give a hand there and give a rest to your mailboxes. :) -- Quim Gil marketing manager, open source Maemo Software @ Nokia ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently
Mark, Have you ever considered following a little of your own advice and ignoring the RTFM replies? A lot of the threads you participate in seem to descend into flamewars. If you had simply ignored Igor's response, then either the user would've followed and read the URL, come back with more information and gotten a useful answer or he would've ignored the URL, and either gotten other questions from somebody else or never gotten an answer at all. Instead, he's greeted with an overly long thread that only has one or two replies that actually pertain to his question. Ask yourself, who has done the most harm here? :) If you can't/won't actually answer the question or ask constructive questions that would help identify the problem, why take the time to be rude? ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
Quim Gil [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ext Kalle Valo wrote: That's a very good summary how a bug owner should behave. Maybe you should write an essay about that? :) Instead, he and others are writing https://wiki.maemo.org/Bugs:Stock_answers I guess the idea is to make it easy to copypaste the answers to the bug reports? If so, that's a very good idea. You (plural) might want to give a hand there and give a rest to your mailboxes. :) Now that I'm categorised as a bad boy, hehe, I have to improve my public image and do my share on the WLAN part ;) -- Kalle Valo ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 22:07 +0300, ext Kalle Valo wrote: Now that I'm categorised as a bad boy, hehe, I have to improve my public image and do my share on the WLAN part ;) Since I have no public image left to defend, instead I'll take the chance to point to something that is part of our internal bugzilla and seems to be missing from the public one. When one is creating a new bug, he is automatically presented with the following template. -- SOFTWARE VERSION: (Control Panel Device About product) HARDWARE VERSION: PRECONDITIONS: (devices/models involved, environment, settings, external servers/URLs if applicable, media files used, network connection: phone/WLAN) STEPS LEADING TO PROBLEM: (explain in detail what you do (e.g. tap on 'OK') and what you see/hear (message 'Connection failed' appears and a beep can be heard) 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. EXPECTED OUTCOME: ACTUAL OUTCOME: FREQUENCY OF OCCURRENCE: (always, less than 1/10, 5/10, 9/10) -- I don't know if anybody remembers about it but that's something I insisted that it would become part of the bug filing process, after being bothered constantly by lousy bug reports written on the same lines of the email that started all this thread. This was happening 3 to 4 years ago. After some random sampling of bugs present in the external bugzilla, I don't see such template being used in the bug creation. Why? -- Cheers, Igor --- Igor Stoppa Maemo Software - Nokia Devices RD - Helsinki ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 22:07 +0300, ext Kalle Valo wrote: Now that I'm categorised as a bad boy, hehe, I have to improve my public image and do my share on the WLAN part ;) Since I have no public image left to defend :) After some random sampling of bugs present in the external bugzilla, I don't see such template being used in the bug creation. Why? Yeah, that would be a good addition. One minor point before any copies it: FREQUENCY OF OCCURRENCE: (always, less than 1/10, 5/10, 9/10) Remove the word always from the template. The reason being that usually the reporter is able to reproduce the bug two times and concludes that it happens always. But in reality that might well not be the case, and marking it as 2/2 would be a lot more informative for the developer. -- Kalle Valo ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
On Jul 15, 2008, at 3:26 PM, Igor Stoppa wrote: After some random sampling of bugs present in the external bugzilla, I don't see such template being used in the bug creation. Why? Well, there is a template (not exactly the same, but very similar) being used. It looks like: SOFTWARE VERSION: (Control Panel General About product) STEPS TO REPRODUCE THE PROBLEM: EXPECTED OUTCOME: ACTUAL OUTCOME: REPRODUCIBILITY: (always/sometimes/once) EXTRA SOFTWARE INSTALLED: OTHER COMMENTS: But I'd rather see the guided submission form get some traction moving forward (somebody else will have to come up with the URL, I'm in retard-mode at the moment and can't find it). Karsten has, apparently, been working on this, hopefully we'll see it implemented soon. ;) It's much more helpful overall than a simple template.___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
RE: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
It was there when I posted a bug with OS2008 yesterday and I used it. The template is a very good one - thanks, Igor. Nick. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Igor Stoppa Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 13:26 To: ext Kalle Valo Cc: maemo-users@maemo.org Subject: Re: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently) On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 22:07 +0300, ext Kalle Valo wrote: Now that I'm categorised as a bad boy, hehe, I have to improve my public image and do my share on the WLAN part ;) Since I have no public image left to defend, instead I'll take the chance to point to something that is part of our internal bugzilla and seems to be missing from the public one. When one is creating a new bug, he is automatically presented with the following template. -- SOFTWARE VERSION: (Control Panel Device About product) HARDWARE VERSION: PRECONDITIONS: (devices/models involved, environment, settings, external servers/URLs if applicable, media files used, network connection: phone/WLAN) STEPS LEADING TO PROBLEM: (explain in detail what you do (e.g. tap on 'OK') and what you see/hear (message 'Connection failed' appears and a beep can be heard) 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. EXPECTED OUTCOME: ACTUAL OUTCOME: FREQUENCY OF OCCURRENCE: (always, less than 1/10, 5/10, 9/10) -- I don't know if anybody remembers about it but that's something I insisted that it would become part of the bug filing process, after being bothered constantly by lousy bug reports written on the same lines of the email that started all this thread. This was happening 3 to 4 years ago. After some random sampling of bugs present in the external bugzilla, I don't see such template being used in the bug creation. Why? -- Cheers, Igor --- Igor Stoppa Maemo Software - Nokia Devices RD - Helsinki ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
RE: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
I agree with that. Nick. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kalle Valo Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 13:43 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: maemo-users@maemo.org Subject: Re: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently) Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 22:07 +0300, ext Kalle Valo wrote: Now that I'm categorised as a bad boy, hehe, I have to improve my public image and do my share on the WLAN part ;) Since I have no public image left to defend :) After some random sampling of bugs present in the external bugzilla, I don't see such template being used in the bug creation. Why? Yeah, that would be a good addition. One minor point before any copies it: FREQUENCY OF OCCURRENCE: (always, less than 1/10, 5/10, 9/10) Remove the word always from the template. The reason being that usually the reporter is able to reproduce the bug two times and concludes that it happens always. But in reality that might well not be the case, and marking it as 2/2 would be a lot more informative for the developer. -- Kalle Valo ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
On Tuesday 15 July 2008 20:43:03 Kalle Valo wrote: Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yeah, that would be a good addition. One minor point before any copies it: FREQUENCY OF OCCURRENCE: (always, less than 1/10, 5/10, 9/10) Remove the word always from the template. The reason being that usually the reporter is able to reproduce the bug two times and concludes that it happens always. But in reality that might well not be the case, and marking it as 2/2 would be a lot more informative for the developer. That would just be silly! Always has to be in the template. If the reporter said 9/10 that would imply, to me, that they have seen it work at least once and, hence, that the bug as reported is intermittent. That would be much more likely to lead me astray than having someone say always when it isn't, in fact, always. Also, for very many bugs, it is clear that the reported behaviour is the way it always works (for example, a bug complaining about a missing field in a form). Always is a useful and important suggestion for that field! Maybe for your components intermittent bugs are particularly common but for many other components most bugs are perfectly reproducible. Graham ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
