Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 12:47 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'm sorry. When I started this thread by asking whether Contacts could > store street addresses I had no idea what this woiuld lead to. > > This reminds me of an argument I had with my child's grade school > teacher, who maintained that a square was *not* a rectangle. > > -- hendrik That is a straw man fallacy. The classic tactic of someone who knows they can't win an argument based on fact. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
I'm sorry. When I started this thread by asking whether Contacts could store street addresses I had no idea what this woiuld lead to. On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 10:11:52AM -0600, Mark wrote: > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 10:03 AM, Simon Budig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > I'd call that export. > > Exactly. It's *export*, NOT *sync*. And the sync application was > designed to handle certain situations by doing an export operation > *rather than* a sync operation. This reminds me of an argument I had with my child's grade school teacher, who maintained that a square was *not* a rectangle. -- hendrik ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
Mark ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 10:03 AM, Simon Budig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Mark ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > >> By definition, sync is the process of making sure that two or more > >> locations contain the *same* up-to-date files: > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_synchronization > > > > *Files*? I thought we were talking about database records of contact > > information? I guess you were confused when you picked this link? > > You clearly have a lot of trouble with concepts. Databases *are* > files. When you sync records, what you are actually doing is updating > the database *files* so that they are identical. May I refer to Wikipedia? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database "A database is a structured collection of records or data." It may be implemented as a single file on disk, it may be implemented as multiple files on multiple disks, it may be implemented as a cluster of computers, it may be implemented as a part of the system memory, it may be implemented as a lot of text on dead tree paper. If you think that "databases are files" then there really is absolutely no point in continuing this discussion since you probably don't even understand the concept of a concept. Bye, Simon -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://simon.budig.de/ ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 10:03 AM, Simon Budig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Mark ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: >> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 9:28 AM, Simon Budig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > No, I maintain, that import and export conceptually is a special case of >> > sync. >> >> ...and you are wrong. >> >> By definition, sync is the process of making sure that two or more >> locations contain the *same* up-to-date files: >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_synchronization > > *Files*? I thought we were talking about database records of contact > information? I guess you were confused when you picked this link? > You clearly have a lot of trouble with concepts. Databases *are* files. When you sync records, what you are actually doing is updating the database *files* so that they are identical. >> Again, including import/export functionality in a sync app does NOT >> mean that import/export is a subset of sync. > > Database 1 is some binary blob, stored by EDS on the disk that > represents a set of contact adresses. > > Database 2 is a not yet existing file on disk, which by convention is > interpreted as conatining zero contact adresses. > > A sync application has plugins to talk to database 1 and database 2. > > The sync application does its magic thing, the plugin for database 2 > queries for a name for the not yet really existing file on disk. > > While doing the sync operation the plugin for database 1 knows about > lots of contact adresses, the plugin for database 2 knows none, the sync > algorithm decides that it would be best to store the contact adresses in > database 2 as well. > > The plugin for database 2 receives lots of contact adresses and chooses > to use a csv representation for the on disk storage of the contact > adresses. > > The net result: a previously not existing, CSV structured file that > contains the contact adresses of Database 1. > > I'd call that export. Exactly. It's *export*, NOT *sync*. And the sync application was designed to handle certain situations by doing an export operation *rather than* a sync operation. > And since it is a sync algorithm doing this, the > sync concept is a superset of the export concept. > Wrong. It's a section of sync code that incorporates export functionality to handle a specific situation that CANNOT BE HANDLED BY SYNC. > > No, it is not easy, it is not convenient, it is not straightforward, it > needs some conceptual thinking to view it like this, but the concept is > sound. > > Later you might even want to "sync" new Adresses in EDS-database 1 into > your CSV "database". If plugin 2 is good it might actually work. Hence > sync does more than export. > > Bye, >Simon > -- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://simon.budig.de/ Sigh... sync does *differently* than export, not "more", because they are not the same thing. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
Simon Budig ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > Database 1 is some binary blob, stored by EDS[*] on the disk that > represents a set of contact adresses. Regarding your other mail: Note that I picked EDS for purely illustrative purposes. It could be a phone or a outlook database. Also "plugins" do not necessarily refer to opensync plugins. It is meant as a description for "translation mechanism between an external data representation and the sync-application-internal data representation. I don't even have a clue what is possible with current EDS/Opensync/whatever implementations. Bye, Simon -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://simon.budig.de/ ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
Mark ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 9:28 AM, Simon Budig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > No, I maintain, that import and export conceptually is a special case of > > sync. > > ...and you are wrong. > > By definition, sync is the process of making sure that two or more > locations contain the *same* up-to-date files: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_synchronization *Files*? I thought we were talking about database records of contact information? I guess you were confused when you picked this link? > Again, including import/export functionality in a sync app does NOT > mean that import/export is a subset of sync. Database 1 is some binary blob, stored by EDS on the disk that represents a set of contact adresses. Database 2 is a not yet existing file on disk, which by convention is interpreted as conatining zero contact adresses. A sync application has plugins to talk to database 1 and database 2. The sync application does its magic thing, the plugin for database 2 queries for a name for the not yet really existing file on disk. While doing the sync operation the plugin for database 1 knows about lots of contact adresses, the plugin for database 2 knows none, the sync algorithm decides that it would be best to store the contact adresses in database 2 as well. The plugin for database 2 receives lots of contact adresses and chooses to use a csv representation for the on disk storage of the contact adresses. The net result: a previously not existing, CSV structured file that contains the contact adresses of Database 1. I'd call that export. And since it is a sync algorithm doing this, the sync concept is a superset of the export concept. No, it is not easy, it is not convenient, it is not straightforward, it needs some conceptual thinking to view it like this, but the concept is sound. Later you might even want to "sync" new Adresses in EDS-database 1 into your CSV "database". If plugin 2 is good it might actually work. Hence sync does more than export. Bye, Simon -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://simon.budig.de/ ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Simon Budig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Mark ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: >> There are two basic facts of common scenarios that you continue to ignore. >> 1) Sync conduits frequently don't exist. >> 2) Import & Export are easy to implement, sync is hard. > > You keep ignoring that we are talking about concepts, not about > (possibly not) existing solutions. No doubt that sync is very > non-trivial and current implementations are lacking in a lot of aspects, > maybe even that the current implementations of syncing are not a > superset of currently not implemented csv exports, but this does not > make the point invalid that the sync *concept* is a superset of the > im-/export *concept*. > > Bye, >Simon > -- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] You couldn't have that more backward. You are talking about an actual implementation of sync that happens to include some basic import/export functionality. Those are not concepts, those are concrete implementations. In actual fact, the "concept" of sync in no way includes the "concept" of import/export. In your mind, the conceptual goal of your particular sync app includes import/export functionality, but that is a concept of a particular app, and is not in any way the definition of the actual ideas of sync or import/export. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 9:28 AM, Simon Budig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Mark ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: >> That goes double for you. I understand your point of view perfectly. I >> am not disputing the fact that sync is useful and powerful. You are >> the one who is maintaining, quite incorrectly, that sync makes import >> & export obsolete. > > No, I maintain, that import and export conceptually is a special case of > sync. > > Bye, > Simon > > -- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://simon.budig.de/ > ...and you are wrong. By definition, sync is the process of making sure that two or more locations contain the *same* up-to-date files: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_synchronization By definition, import & export are the processes of creating *new* external files of *different* formats. http://financialsoft.about.com/od/financialsoftwareglossary/g/def_export.htm Again, including import/export functionality in a sync app does NOT mean that import/export is a subset of sync. To say that is exactly the same as saying that a word processor is a subset of email, or that audio equipment is a subset of automobiles. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
Mark ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > There are two basic facts of common scenarios that you continue to ignore. > 1) Sync conduits frequently don't exist. > 2) Import & Export are easy to implement, sync is hard. You keep ignoring that we are talking about concepts, not about (possibly not) existing solutions. No doubt that sync is very non-trivial and current implementations are lacking in a lot of aspects, maybe even that the current implementations of syncing are not a superset of currently not implemented csv exports, but this does not make the point invalid that the sync *concept* is a superset of the im-/export *concept*. Bye, Simon -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://simon.budig.de/ ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 9:20 AM, Simon Budig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Mark ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: >> Sync cannot, and will never be able to, transmit data between apps >> that have completely different functions, > > What is so hard to get with the concept of "syncing to a file"? There is > just a single app involved and the result could be a CSV-file. > > It just *is* export functionality. > > Bye, >Simon > What is so hard to get about the fact that sync apps are relatively huge, complex, resource-hungry apps that are completely separate from the apps using the data? Why install a third app, when import & export are incredibly easy to implement in the other apps? There are two basic facts of common scenarios that you continue to ignore. 1) Sync conduits frequently don't exist. 2) Import & Export are easy to implement, sync is hard. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 4:25 PM, Simon Budig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > If Sync can do everything that im- and export can do then it is a > superset of im- and export. It most certainly cannot. Sync can only deal with native formats. Import and export deal specifically with non-native formats. They complement each other; neither can replace the other. > Davids set theory is correct here. You clearly don't understand set theory any more than he does. > And he > does describe exactly how he thinks about this. You seem to generally > assume that syncing has to happen between two different machines. Baloney. You're missing the point entirely. What sync and import/export *can* do is irrelevant. What's relevant is what each can do that the other cannot. > This > is not necessary. You can sync a database against a different database > on the same machine in the same file system or whatever. If you now > manage to think of "export" being a sync operation between e.g. an EDS > database and a empty CSV-file-based "database" you basically have > export. > ...but if you aren't using an EDS database, and are forced to install it - *and* Opensync - just to get your data out, how is that a good thing? The point is that apps that force you to install other apps (which take up space and system resources) in order to get fundamental, critical functionality are not very user-friendly. > Opensync has been doing stuff like this for ages. It was crude to > configure when I tried it some time ago and the documentation does not > necessarily make me hope that it got better, but conceptually (and we > are talking concepts here, right?) this is just an export. Or import if > looked at it the other way around. > ...whereas true import & export are actually quite easy, with just a few clicks... > Instead of just denouncing davids knowledge of math you should try to > read and understand what he actually writes. > > Bye, >Simon > > PS: N! I got sucked into this thread!! > -- That goes double for you. I understand your point of view perfectly. I am not disputing the fact that sync is useful and powerful. You are the one who is maintaining, quite incorrectly, that sync makes import & export obsolete. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
Mark ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > Sync cannot, and will never be able to, transmit data between apps > that have completely different functions, What is so hard to get with the concept of "syncing to a file"? There is just a single app involved and the result could be a CSV-file. It just *is* export functionality. Bye, Simon -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://simon.budig.de/ ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 4:25 PM, Simon Budig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Mark ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: >> On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 4:24 AM, David Greaves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > I suggest that, generically, import/export is a subset of sync. >> > >> > Sync to an empty service (using a CSV backing store?) = export. >> > Sync from a full service (using a CSV backing store?) = import. >> > >> > Sync can also do merges and therefore sync is more powerful. >> > >> >> You have that backwards. Sync is more of a subset of import/export, >> because sync only works for a very small number of the machines and >> situations for which import/export works. But actually neither is a >> true subset of the other, because there are some areas where they >> don't overlap. You need a refresher on set theory. > > If Sync can do everything that im- and export can do then it is a > superset of im- and export. Davids set theory is correct here. And he > does describe exactly how he thinks about this. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Sync can NOT, and never will, be able to do everything that import/export can do, any more than import/export will ever be able to do everything that sync can do. And the scenario above doesn't qualify as import/export, because import/export deals specifically with non-native file formats. If you are dealing strictly with native formats or protocols, it isn't import/export. Which is the whole point: sync and import/export are NOT the same thing. Some sync apps include import/export functionality, but that is *extra* and is *not* part of sync. Sync cannot, and will never be able to, transmit data between apps that have completely different functions, such as word processor and spreadsheet, or spreadsheet and the body of an email message, or database and spreadsheet. Sync alone cannot export data to a file that I can view (and edit) with even the most basic text editor, then turn around and import it into some other program. So no, import/export is NOT a subset of sync. Some functions overlap, yes, but that doesn't mean anything. You *can* edit text in your email program, but that doesn't mean it is a word processor, or that it's the best place to do that. It definitely doesn't mean that word processors are subsets of email clients. It only means that there is some overlap of functions. That's ALL. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
Mark wrote: > On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 4:24 AM, David Greaves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I suggest that, generically, import/export is a subset of sync. >> >> Sync to an empty service (using a CSV backing store?) = export. >> Sync from a full service (using a CSV backing store?) = import. >> >> Sync can also do merges and therefore sync is more powerful. >> > > You have that backwards. Sync is more of a subset of import/export, > because sync only works for a very small number of the machines and > situations for which import/export works. But actually neither is a > true subset of the other, because there are some areas where they > don't overlap. You need a refresher on set theory. I'm getting a distinct cross-purpose feeling here. I'm talking about an approach to managing data. You appear to be talking about the availability of data managing implementations. I'm interested in making what we have better; you seem interested in making the best of what we have. I hope that's not too arrogant - please correct me if you are actually interested in abstractions rather than reality. >> I agree - saying "a manual process is more flexible" kinda defeats the point >> until we start comparing AIs... >> > > No, it is THE point. "More flexible" means that it works in more > situations, with more devices, with more OSs and with more apps. This seems like approach vs implementation again. Of course, until it becomes a standard then the proprietary players won't be interested and we won't be able to use it with them. Shame. Maybe we should stop doing 'open' stuff since it'll never catch on? I think the same argument applies with MS Office .doc vs ODF. > Sigh... again, you assume that the owner of the tablet is using > desktop Linux and at least the Evolution database system. That is an > incredibly narrow market. I make no assumptions about implementation. I simply observe that you complain about some implementations and combinations. I have used sync that 'just works' (my work machine uses outlook and it syncs with an exchange server really well). Maybe I should be logging into exchange server, running a csv export every day and comparing it to a csv export from my outlook and then, well, I don't know. Does exchange have a csv import for one user? > You clearly have a great deal of personal bias regarding this issue. > I'm all *for* sync when it is possible. However, it frequently is NOT > possible. I do. I think that well designed solutions are better than quick hacks. Additionally quick hacks that move us towards well designed solutions are better than nothing. Worst of all are poor solutions that are persisted because some people don't think further than 6" ahead... >>> You still have not responded to the the main problem, which is that sync >>> is not and never will be as flexible as import and export, and in some >>> cases is absolutely, positively impossible. >> Name one. >> Specious arguments such as 'I can't sync to a machine I can't connect to' are >> meaningless. > > How so? That statement couldn't be more arrogant, Try this: "You are but a lowly user incapable of understanding the design of a genius such as I." Yep. that's more arrogant. > or more wrong. I hope so but I'm not sure - you tell me. I notice you didn't name one. (Note - I'm not talking about an implementation: syncing to a closed device that doesn't sync - I'm talking about a design situation) > It's > the most important and fundamental issue: if no sync conduit exists in > a given situation, it's not going to happen, regardless of how > convenient it might be in your fantasy world where everything > communicates easily with everything else. (But that's not really what > you're saying: Actually it is; and I am living in a fantasy world. That's how (IMHO) good design works. One looks towards nirvana and takes a step. [snip lots of approach vs implementation confusion] > I don't know of anybody who can simultaneously use multiple devices. > (I don't know about you, but I only have one pair of hands and one > pair of eyes.) Therefore, changing data on multiple devices and not > losing any changes really isn't an issue. I'm offline and manually delete a contact. Meanwhile my online inbox gets a new email with a vcard and adds it to the contacts. Still that could never happen. [snip solution that won't work in this case] > Sync is for lazy people who aren't very good at housekeeping. Oh, you're a Luddite now. Easy solution - just buy a wax tablet and stylus > Not to > mention the fact that a sync requires a connection of some kind as > well as an installed conduit and some kind of initiation procedure, so > it's not quite the zero-effort thing you make it out to be. Yeah, like the wifi one on my N800/laptop that just reconnects when I get in range of an AP. A sync daemon that polls and notices a peer and auto syncs. How lazy of me. I just reconfigure it to forget my WPA pass phrase and flagellate myself as I use handwri
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
Mark ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 4:24 AM, David Greaves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I suggest that, generically, import/export is a subset of sync. > > > > Sync to an empty service (using a CSV backing store?) = export. > > Sync from a full service (using a CSV backing store?) = import. > > > > Sync can also do merges and therefore sync is more powerful. > > > > You have that backwards. Sync is more of a subset of import/export, > because sync only works for a very small number of the machines and > situations for which import/export works. But actually neither is a > true subset of the other, because there are some areas where they > don't overlap. You need a refresher on set theory. If Sync can do everything that im- and export can do then it is a superset of im- and export. Davids set theory is correct here. And he does describe exactly how he thinks about this. You seem to generally assume that syncing has to happen between two different machines. This is not necessary. You can sync a database against a different database on the same machine in the same file system or whatever. If you now manage to think of "export" being a sync operation between e.g. an EDS database and a empty CSV-file-based "database" you basically have export. Opensync has been doing stuff like this for ages. It was crude to configure when I tried it some time ago and the documentation does not necessarily make me hope that it got better, but conceptually (and we are talking concepts here, right?) this is just an export. Or import if looked at it the other way around. Instead of just denouncing davids knowledge of math you should try to read and understand what he actually writes. Bye, Simon PS: N! I got sucked into this thread!! -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://simon.budig.de/ ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 3:15 PM, Patrick Ohly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mon, 2008-06-23 at 11:27 -0600, Mark wrote: >> You are attempting to discount issues based on personal preference >> rather than taking a realistic view of how and when people - and their >> devices - work. > > I'm not sure why you feel entitled to speak for everyone and I'm not > even allowed to express my own opinion without being told that I'm > wrong. I guess that's because I'm biased and you are so obviously not... > > I have been told by users quite a few times that combinations of > SyncEvolution with SyncML server and some other clients work, but I > those people don't count either. Remember, my whole point is that sync > can be made to work, and then when it works, people are happy using it. > Nothing more, nothing less. > Great! I never disputed that. My point is that there are a lot more cases when it *doesn't* work than when it does, and therefore import/export functionality is necessary. You've seemed to have been arguing that import/export isn't necessary. >> You are doing this because you can't actually win the argument and >> you know it. > > Congratulations, you won: I'm not going to argue further with you. I'm > not sure what you are trying to achieve, but it certainly doesn't > convince me to stop working on sync software. Back to more productive > endeavors... > > -- > Bye, Patrick Ohly > -- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.estamos.de/ > By all means, continue working on sync software. Sync is great! You're the one who started the whole sync vs. import/export argument. I never said that sync wasn't great or that nobody should use it. I just said that it's often not an option, and in those cases import & export are the *only* way to transfer data. Regardless of the situation, either can benefit by the presence of the other. They are not mutually exclusive concepts. On the contrary, most software that will sync also does import/export. As a matter of fact, some software that used to only be able to import & export files and is in no way related to PIMs can now "sync" file types that nobody would have considered before, such as spreadsheets and text documents. Complementary, not exclusive. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Mon, 2008-06-23 at 11:27 -0600, Mark wrote: > You are attempting to discount issues based on personal preference > rather than taking a realistic view of how and when people - and their > devices - work. I'm not sure why you feel entitled to speak for everyone and I'm not even allowed to express my own opinion without being told that I'm wrong. I guess that's because I'm biased and you are so obviously not... I have been told by users quite a few times that combinations of SyncEvolution with SyncML server and some other clients work, but I those people don't count either. Remember, my whole point is that sync can be made to work, and then when it works, people are happy using it. Nothing more, nothing less. > You are doing this because you can't actually win the argument and > you know it. Congratulations, you won: I'm not going to argue further with you. I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve, but it certainly doesn't convince me to stop working on sync software. Back to more productive endeavors... -- Bye, Patrick Ohly -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.estamos.de/ ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Sun, Jun 22, 2008 at 4:24 AM, David Greaves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mark Haury wrote:
>> Patrick Ohly wrote:
>>> On Fri, 2008-06-20 at 14:55 -0600, Mark wrote:
>>>
You are confusing "convenience" with "flexibility". Syncing can be a
whole lot more *convenient*, once you have it properly set up (which
can be a real bear), but it is in no way as flexible or powerful as
import/export.
> I suggest that, generically, import/export is a subset of sync.
>
> Sync to an empty service (using a CSV backing store?) = export.
> Sync from a full service (using a CSV backing store?) = import.
>
> Sync can also do merges and therefore sync is more powerful.
>
You have that backwards. Sync is more of a subset of import/export,
because sync only works for a very small number of the machines and
situations for which import/export works. But actually neither is a
true subset of the other, because there are some areas where they
don't overlap. You need a refresher on set theory.
>>> True. However, the flexibility that you value so much comes at the
>>> expense of a lot more manual work each time you do an import/export. CSV
>>> has the same problem: it's kind of okay when you manually define your
>>> fields *and* teach your apps what you mean with these fields, but it is
>>> unsuitable for automated data exchange without this upfront
>>> configuration.
> I agree - saying "a manual process is more flexible" kinda defeats the point
> until we start comparing AIs...
>
No, it is THE point. "More flexible" means that it works in more
situations, with more devices, with more OSs and with more apps. Even
desktop Linux can do this kind of import & export. There's absolutely
no reason that import/export can't coexist with and nicely complement
sync.
>>> You remarked that SyncEvolution is too hard to use because there is no
>>> GUI and one has to edit configuration files. Someone has written a GUI
>>> ("Genesis"; implemented in Python, so it might run on Maemo, although I
>>> haven't tried that) and in 0.8 one can also change the config from the
>>> command line. CSV on the other hand requires that you define your own
>>> file format - is that really easier for non-technical people? I'd argue
>>> that syncing is becoming easier to set up than import/export.
>
> Indeed, the degree to which various implementations work is the issue.
> This argument appears to be "I prefer the implementation/UI for
> import/export",
> maybe with a bit of "and I grok import/export better than sync".
>
Sigh... again, you assume that the owner of the tablet is using
desktop Linux and at least the Evolution database system. That is an
incredibly narrow market.
You clearly have a great deal of personal bias regarding this issue.
I'm all *for* sync when it is possible. However, it frequently is NOT
possible.
>> You still have not responded to the the main problem, which is that sync
>> is not and never will be as flexible as import and export, and in some
>> cases is absolutely, positively impossible.
> Name one.
> Specious arguments such as 'I can't sync to a machine I can't connect to' are
> meaningless.
How so? That statement couldn't be more arrogant, or more wrong. It's
the most important and fundamental issue: if no sync conduit exists in
a given situation, it's not going to happen, regardless of how
convenient it might be in your fantasy world where everything
communicates easily with everything else. (But that's not really what
you're saying: what you're saying is that everyone who owns a tablet
also uses desktop Linux and the Evolution database, which is clearly
just as wrong.)
>
>> Import and export *always*
>> works to some extent, as long as you have the patience to keep looking
>> for a solution.
> This is just a restatement of 'import/export' is an easy subset of sync and is
> a) more likely to be implemented and b) less likely to have bugs.
Wrong on all three counts. Sync is a *difficult* subset of
import/export, is a) much *less* likely to be implemented between
various non-similar OSs, and b) *more* likely to have bugs and
limitations.
>
>> Sometimes it requires jumping through some hoops, but
>> jumping through hoops (and adequate - as opposed to complete - data
>> transfer) beats absolute impossibility every time.
>
> Which is a restatement of your requirements and priorities.
No, it's further explanation of the *fact* that something that is a
PITA but possible beats anything that is impossible every time.
>
> Personally, my priorities are more along the lines of "I want to change data
> on
> multiple devices and not loose any changes".
> This *cannot* be done with a *simple* import/export.
> (Yes I can export all my data, run an n-way diff/merge and ta-da...)
>
> David
>
... with very strong emphasis on "personally"...
I don't know of anybody who can simultaneously use multiple devices.
(I don't know about you, but I only have one pair of hands and one
pair of eyes.) Therefore, changing data on mu
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
Mark Haury wrote:
> Patrick Ohly wrote:
>> On Fri, 2008-06-20 at 14:55 -0600, Mark wrote:
>>
>>> You are confusing "convenience" with "flexibility". Syncing can be a
>>> whole lot more *convenient*, once you have it properly set up (which
>>> can be a real bear), but it is in no way as flexible or powerful as
>>> import/export.
I suggest that, generically, import/export is a subset of sync.
Sync to an empty service (using a CSV backing store?) = export.
Sync from a full service (using a CSV backing store?) = import.
Sync can also do merges and therefore sync is more powerful.
>> True. However, the flexibility that you value so much comes at the
>> expense of a lot more manual work each time you do an import/export. CSV
>> has the same problem: it's kind of okay when you manually define your
>> fields *and* teach your apps what you mean with these fields, but it is
>> unsuitable for automated data exchange without this upfront
>> configuration.
I agree - saying "a manual process is more flexible" kinda defeats the point
until we start comparing AIs...
>> You remarked that SyncEvolution is too hard to use because there is no
>> GUI and one has to edit configuration files. Someone has written a GUI
>> ("Genesis"; implemented in Python, so it might run on Maemo, although I
>> haven't tried that) and in 0.8 one can also change the config from the
>> command line. CSV on the other hand requires that you define your own
>> file format - is that really easier for non-technical people? I'd argue
>> that syncing is becoming easier to set up than import/export.
Indeed, the degree to which various implementations work is the issue.
This argument appears to be "I prefer the implementation/UI for import/export",
maybe with a bit of "and I grok import/export better than sync".
> You still have not responded to the the main problem, which is that sync
> is not and never will be as flexible as import and export, and in some
> cases is absolutely, positively impossible.
Name one.
Specious arguments such as 'I can't sync to a machine I can't connect to' are
meaningless.
> Import and export *always*
> works to some extent, as long as you have the patience to keep looking
> for a solution.
This is just a restatement of 'import/export' is an easy subset of sync and is
a) more likely to be implemented and b) less likely to have bugs.
> Sometimes it requires jumping through some hoops, but
> jumping through hoops (and adequate - as opposed to complete - data
> transfer) beats absolute impossibility every time.
Which is a restatement of your requirements and priorities.
Personally, my priorities are more along the lines of "I want to change data on
multiple devices and not loose any changes".
This *cannot* be done with a *simple* import/export.
(Yes I can export all my data, run an n-way diff/merge and ta-da...)
David
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Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Sat, 2008-06-21 at 21:04 -0600, Mark Haury wrote: > You still have not responded to the the main problem, which is that > sync is not and never will be as flexible as import and export, and in > some cases is absolutely, positively impossible. I didn't see a contradiction here and thus didn't reply to that point. If sync works, its a lot more convenient and powerful than manual import/export (two-way, incremental sync!). Some users prefer such a solution and therefore invest the initial effort of setting it up. I definitely prefer it and therefore write software which makes it possible. You seem to disagree or prefer the simplicity of import/export. You are also willing to invest the extra effort to keep your different databases consistent manually. That's fine, too. The whole point is that these are different approaches with different constraints and advantages/disadvantages. Everyone should choose for himself which solution is possible for him and more desirable. -- Bye, Patrick Ohly -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.estamos.de/ ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
Patrick Ohly wrote:
On Fri, 2008-06-20 at 14:55 -0600, Mark wrote:
You are confusing "convenience" with "flexibility". Syncing can be a
whole lot more *convenient*, once you have it properly set up (which
can be a real bear), but it is in no way as flexible or powerful as
import/export.
True. However, the flexibility that you value so much comes at the
expense of a lot more manual work each time you do an import/export. CSV
has the same problem: it's kind of okay when you manually define your
fields *and* teach your apps what you mean with these fields, but it is
unsuitable for automated data exchange without this upfront
configuration.
You remarked that SyncEvolution is too hard to use because there is no
GUI and one has to edit configuration files. Someone has written a GUI
("Genesis"; implemented in Python, so it might run on Maemo, although I
haven't tried that) and in 0.8 one can also change the config from the
command line. CSV on the other hand requires that you define your own
file format - is that really easier for non-technical people? I'd argue
that syncing is becoming easier to set up than import/export.
You still have not responded to the the main problem, which is that
sync is not and never will be as flexible as import and export, and in
some cases is absolutely, positively impossible. Import and export
*always* works to some extent, as long as you have the patience to keep
looking for a solution. Sometimes it requires jumping through some
hoops, but jumping through hoops (and adequate - as opposed to complete
- data transfer) beats absolute impossibility every time.
Mark
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Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Fri, 2008-06-20 at 14:55 -0600, Mark wrote:
> You are confusing "convenience" with "flexibility". Syncing can be a
> whole lot more *convenient*, once you have it properly set up (which
> can be a real bear), but it is in no way as flexible or powerful as
> import/export.
True. However, the flexibility that you value so much comes at the
expense of a lot more manual work each time you do an import/export. CSV
has the same problem: it's kind of okay when you manually define your
fields *and* teach your apps what you mean with these fields, but it is
unsuitable for automated data exchange without this upfront
configuration.
You remarked that SyncEvolution is too hard to use because there is no
GUI and one has to edit configuration files. Someone has written a GUI
("Genesis"; implemented in Python, so it might run on Maemo, although I
haven't tried that) and in 0.8 one can also change the config from the
command line. CSV on the other hand requires that you define your own
file format - is that really easier for non-technical people? I'd argue
that syncing is becoming easier to set up than import/export.
--
Bye, Patrick Ohly
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.estamos.de/
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Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Friday 20 June 2008 20:20:08 Mark wrote: > On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 12:38 PM, George Farris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Fri, 2008-06-20 at 18:09 +0100, Graham Cobb wrote: > >> This has been added to gpe-contacts (by Florian Boor), it is currently > >> in the code in SVN (and hence in my daily builds, for the GPE team to > >> test). It will be in the new release of GPE for Maemo which I hope to > >> have available for testing around the end of this month. > > > > Are you going to have an option for it to talk to EDS, I sure hope so. >... > If gpe-contacts doesn't already use EDS, it seems like it would be a > *major* rewrite to accommodate it, and probably not worth the effort. It has been talked about on the GPE list and, if I remember correctly, someone did start looking into it (the rewrite would be limited to re-implementing the libcontactsdb library, allowing the applications to not change). But I haven't heard anything recently. Certainly it won't be in the update in the next few weeks. Graham ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 1:52 PM, Patrick Ohly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Fri, 2008-06-20 at 13:20 -0600, Mark wrote: > [EDS integration for GPE] >> From what I'm learning about the Evolution Data Server, it *could* be >> a good thing, but only if you don't forget to add significant import & >> export (and possibly external sync) functionality. > > SyncEvolution already does that for EDS. It supports incremental syncs > (just send modified items), so you can edit one contact on the tablet, > another contact on the desktop, sync, and not loose one of these > modifications. Your manual import/export is way more cumbersome than > that. If it suits you, by all means, continue using it, but I expect > more from my devices. > No, it doesn't. A sync is a sync is a sync, no matter what you call it, and always is limited by the inherent limitations of sync. Here's an example scenario: what happens if you want to sync something from EDS with an app in Windows on the same dual-boot machine? Not gonna happen! With import/export, though, all you have to do is export to a partition that is writable by both OSs, then boot into Windows and do the import. (Or put it on a USB drive, or email it to yourself, or.) >> The fundamental issue is that it's still up to the app developers to >> deal with import, export & sync. The EDS doesn't do any of that. > > Instead of implementing import/export or even sync for each app, it > makes a lot more sense to implement it once for a common back end. > True, but you've got a chicken-and-egg problem there. EDS doesn't have a front-end that's capable of import/export. Sync, yes; import/export, no. It's also a command line-only product at this point (and configured by separate files - ugh!), which is a major drawback for most consumers. If they implement a GUI for SyncEvolution as well as true import/export, then great! The problem is that your vision is very narrow: you're thinking only in terms of Linux, and specifically the Nokia tablets and Evolution. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 1:51 PM, Patrick Ohly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Fri, 2008-06-20 at 08:53 -0600, Mark wrote: >> On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 12:40 PM, Patrick Ohly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> Powerful, painless import and export >> >> (and sync) are our friends. >> > >> > And you have that today? As someone who has worked on sync technology >> > for quite a while now I can tell you that getting it right is exactly >> > the PITA that you complain about. It just gets worse the more programs >> > you want to sync with. >> > >> >> I put "and sync" in parentheses for a reason: import and export is >> easier to use and more powerful than sync, and at the same time is >> easier to implement. > > It's less powerful. The user is restricted to an "edit on one device", > "export", "import on second device", "edit there" cycle. True syncing is > more flexible, but indeed, more difficult to implement. > No, sync is limited to certain types of physical connections, certain protocols, certain fields, certain devices, etc. Import and export can be done not only with any type of physical connection, but in fact completely without one via sneakernet. Given a certain set of fields, sync usually only works with a specific subset of those, which can vary by device and/or app. However, if you have an exported file with *all* the fields, each separate device or app can take advantage of every field of which it is capable, without further limiting other devices/apps further down the line, which all also have access to the original set of fields. You are confusing "convenience" with "flexibility". Syncing can be a whole lot more *convenient*, once you have it properly set up (which can be a real bear), but it is in no way as flexible or powerful as import/export. >> >> Integrated=proprietary+closed+PITA. >> >> Import+Export=complete freedom between many completely different apps, >> >> not only apps that perform similar functions, but completely different >> >> functions. >> >> >> >> And the vCard format is incredibly clunky and limited. Not the best >> >> choice for the only supported format. >> > >> > So what is the alternative format that gives you this "complete freedom >> > between many completely different apps ... [with] completely different >> > functions"? >> >> Easy! Plain old CSV format. It allows for any number of fields of any >> size and data type, and good implementation of import uses templates >> to eliminate repetition of field matching after the first time. I've >> been using CSV for transporting data between completely different apps >> for many years, and my experience with the N800 is the first time I've >> had any issues with import/export. > > Isn't CSV limited to a fixed number of columns? How do you deal with > contacts which can have an unlimited number of addresses, phone numbers, > etc.? > Maybe, but I haven't personally run into any limitations with CSV yet. I have run into nothing *but* limitations with vCard. > You might have had negative experiences with specific vCard > implementations, but the format itself is more flexible than CSV. > > -- > Bye, Patrick Ohly > -- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.estamos.de/ > Not from the standards that I've been reading. The vCard standard has a very specific and very limited set of data fields. There is no limit on the type, name, or anything else on CSV fields. CSV is *far* more flexible than vCard. The problem with vCard is similar to that of PalmOS. (And it's probably no coincidence that they were contemporaries.) It started out with a very specific purpose, and was outstanding at that. However, when it had an identity crisis and tried to be something new and much broader, and at the same time keep full compatibility with the old version, it lost its way and lost the market to the newer competition that didn't have the old baggage to haul along. Sometimes standards should be allowed to die. Compatibility at the expense of usability is not a good tradeoff. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Fri, 2008-06-20 at 13:20 -0600, Mark wrote: [EDS integration for GPE] > From what I'm learning about the Evolution Data Server, it *could* be > a good thing, but only if you don't forget to add significant import & > export (and possibly external sync) functionality. SyncEvolution already does that for EDS. It supports incremental syncs (just send modified items), so you can edit one contact on the tablet, another contact on the desktop, sync, and not loose one of these modifications. Your manual import/export is way more cumbersome than that. If it suits you, by all means, continue using it, but I expect more from my devices. > The fundamental issue is that it's still up to the app developers to > deal with import, export & sync. The EDS doesn't do any of that. Instead of implementing import/export or even sync for each app, it makes a lot more sense to implement it once for a common back end. -- Bye, Patrick Ohly -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.estamos.de/ ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Fri, 2008-06-20 at 08:53 -0600, Mark wrote: > On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 12:40 PM, Patrick Ohly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Powerful, painless import and export > >> (and sync) are our friends. > > > > And you have that today? As someone who has worked on sync technology > > for quite a while now I can tell you that getting it right is exactly > > the PITA that you complain about. It just gets worse the more programs > > you want to sync with. > > > > I put "and sync" in parentheses for a reason: import and export is > easier to use and more powerful than sync, and at the same time is > easier to implement. It's less powerful. The user is restricted to an "edit on one device", "export", "import on second device", "edit there" cycle. True syncing is more flexible, but indeed, more difficult to implement. > >> Integrated=proprietary+closed+PITA. > >> Import+Export=complete freedom between many completely different apps, > >> not only apps that perform similar functions, but completely different > >> functions. > >> > >> And the vCard format is incredibly clunky and limited. Not the best > >> choice for the only supported format. > > > > So what is the alternative format that gives you this "complete freedom > > between many completely different apps ... [with] completely different > > functions"? > > Easy! Plain old CSV format. It allows for any number of fields of any > size and data type, and good implementation of import uses templates > to eliminate repetition of field matching after the first time. I've > been using CSV for transporting data between completely different apps > for many years, and my experience with the N800 is the first time I've > had any issues with import/export. Isn't CSV limited to a fixed number of columns? How do you deal with contacts which can have an unlimited number of addresses, phone numbers, etc.? You might have had negative experiences with specific vCard implementations, but the format itself is more flexible than CSV. -- Bye, Patrick Ohly -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.estamos.de/ ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 12:38 PM, George Farris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Fri, 2008-06-20 at 18:09 +0100, Graham Cobb wrote: >> This has been added to gpe-contacts (by Florian Boor), it is currently in the >> code in SVN (and hence in my daily builds, for the GPE team to test). It >> will be in the new release of GPE for Maemo which I hope to have available >> for testing around the end of this month. >> > > Are you going to have an option for it to talk to EDS, I sure hope so. > >From what I'm learning about the Evolution Data Server, it *could* be a good thing, but only if you don't forget to add significant import & export (and possibly external sync) functionality. The exact implementation of the behind-the-scenes database is basically irrelevant, so long as it's flexible and powerful enough to store everything needed. Sharing a single database within the device can potentially save a lot of time, effort, and disk space. However, if it's done without consideration for the ability to share *all* the data with other devices & OSs, it's not much of an improvement. The fundamental issue is that it's still up to the app developers to deal with import, export & sync. The EDS doesn't do any of that. If gpe-contacts doesn't already use EDS, it seems like it would be a *major* rewrite to accommodate it, and probably not worth the effort. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Fri, 2008-06-20 at 18:09 +0100, Graham Cobb wrote: > On Friday 20 June 2008 16:12:14 Mark wrote: > > I wouldn't need sync at all if gpe-contacts could export as CSV (or > > actually anything at all). > > This has been added to gpe-contacts (by Florian Boor), it is currently in the > code in SVN (and hence in my daily builds, for the GPE team to test). It > will be in the new release of GPE for Maemo which I hope to have available > for testing around the end of this month. > Are you going to have an option for it to talk to EDS, I sure hope so. ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Graham Cobb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Oops. What I meant to say was that export (in vCard format) is what has been > added to gpe-contacts. Not CSV export. > > Graham > That's still good news - vCard would allow me to get it into Kontacts, which can then export to whatever format I need. I'll lose some of my fields, but that sure beats the heck out of nothing. :-) Maybe the next major version of gpe-contacts could include CSV? It is much simpler to implement than vCard, especially on the export side... Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Fwd: Re: Postal address in Contacts?
Oops. What I meant to say was that export (in vCard format) is what has been added to gpe-contacts. Not CSV export. -- Forwarded Message -- Subject: Re: Postal address in Contacts? Date: Friday 20 June 2008 From: Graham Cobb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: maemo-users@maemo.org On Friday 20 June 2008 16:12:14 Mark wrote: > I wouldn't need sync at all if gpe-contacts could export as CSV (or > actually anything at all). This has been added to gpe-contacts (by Florian Boor), it is currently in the code in SVN (and hence in my daily builds, for the GPE team to test). It will be in the new release of GPE for Maemo which I hope to have available for testing around the end of this month. Also, there have been many fixes to the import code -- many thanks to Gary Baribault for his help and his patience in testing. If there are further bugs in the import code, now would be a good time to get them fixed, before the next update. Graham --- ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Friday 20 June 2008 16:12:14 Mark wrote: > I wouldn't need sync at all if gpe-contacts could export as CSV (or > actually anything at all). This has been added to gpe-contacts (by Florian Boor), it is currently in the code in SVN (and hence in my daily builds, for the GPE team to test). It will be in the new release of GPE for Maemo which I hope to have available for testing around the end of this month. Also, there have been many fixes to the import code -- many thanks to Gary Baribault for his help and his patience in testing. If there are further bugs in the import code, now would be a good time to get them fixed, before the next update. Graham ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 8:53 AM, Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Easy! Plain old CSV format. It allows for any number of fields of any > size and data type, and good implementation of import uses templates > to eliminate repetition of field matching after the first time. I've > been using CSV for transporting data between completely different apps > for many years, and my experience with the N800 is the first time I've > had any issues with import/export. > (Pardon me for answering my own post - I left a couple of things out.) I should have said "apps and devices". I've used CSV to transfer data between apps and devices including Works, Access, Excel, PalmOS, EPOC (Psion Series 5), Eudora, Gmail, various cell phones, and now even to the N800 with Gnumeric. At least Gnumeric allows me to search and edit, but a spreadsheet really isn't the most user-friendly format for this type of data. Now if I can just figure out how to sync Kontacts with gpe-contacts, I'll have a work-around for most of the functionality I need. If I can sync with Kontacts, it will allow me to export the edited data back out of the tablet, which is currently impossible. I wouldn't need sync at all if gpe-contacts could export as CSV (or actually anything at all). Once I get my contacts on a portable device, I generally do all my editing and updating on that device, and export the updated data to my desktop as needed. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 12:40 PM, Patrick Ohly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, 2008-06-17 at 17:49 -0600, Mark wrote: >> However, the argument still stands. Having to open a separate >> application instead of working directly in the application you are >> really using is a PITA. > > You seem to be unaware that exactly that is possible with the Evolution > Data Server model which is used by Maemo: one database which multiple > different programs access using *their own* GUI. > I understand that perfectly well. You seem to be unaware that your argument is exactly the same as Micro$oft's excuse for integrating IE (and other, more insidious things) into Windows. >> > Obviously you've not tried Modest. As Kevin tried to explain, Modest >> > uses the Contacts database, not some silly seperate database, and thus >> > integrates very nicely with all the other Maemo software. >> >> No, I haven't...and now I know *not* to... >> >> Every email app I've used to date instantly and painlessly imports and >> exports address books, which is a darn sight better than Contacts will >> ever do. Hasn't anybody learned the lesson from Micro$oft/IE that >> "integration" is a *bad* thing? > > Only if it is based on closed data formats and proprietary technology. Evolution may not be closed, but it may as well be proprietary in the sense that it is yet another completely different standard and set of protocols that developers have to learn and work around and it applies only to Linux, not to any other OS. > >> Powerful, painless import and export >> (and sync) are our friends. > > And you have that today? As someone who has worked on sync technology > for quite a while now I can tell you that getting it right is exactly > the PITA that you complain about. It just gets worse the more programs > you want to sync with. > I put "and sync" in parentheses for a reason: import and export is easier to use and more powerful than sync, and at the same time is easier to implement. My experience with syncing various things leads me to believe that it has its place, but is too difficult to implement well and universally. >> Integrated=proprietary+closed+PITA. >> Import+Export=complete freedom between many completely different apps, >> not only apps that perform similar functions, but completely different >> functions. >> >> And the vCard format is incredibly clunky and limited. Not the best >> choice for the only supported format. > > So what is the alternative format that gives you this "complete freedom > between many completely different apps ... [with] completely different > functions"? > > -- > Bye, Patrick Ohly > -- > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.estamos.de/ > Easy! Plain old CSV format. It allows for any number of fields of any size and data type, and good implementation of import uses templates to eliminate repetition of field matching after the first time. I've been using CSV for transporting data between completely different apps for many years, and my experience with the N800 is the first time I've had any issues with import/export. As a matter of fact, I finally have all my contacts (more than 600) in gpe-contacts in my N800 - thanks to CSV. Last night I installed Kontacts on my kubuntu desktop. It has exactly the kind of powerful import and export that I've been talking about, and allowed me to import my .csv files, match fields and create import templates, and export them all as one large vCard file that gpe-contacts was able to successfully import. I also exported as a single CSV file that Gnumeric can open and edit. Unfortunately, I still have a lot of cleanup to do, because some (but not all) of the field matching issues are apparently with the vCard format itself rather than gpe-contacts' import function. It turned out to be a good thing that I exported to CSV, because that file retained all the data, whereas the vCard file stripped a lot of it and did strange things with the formatting on some other fields. I'll have plenty to keep me busy on the bus for a while... Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Tue, 2008-06-17 at 17:49 -0600, Mark wrote: > However, the argument still stands. Having to open a separate > application instead of working directly in the application you are > really using is a PITA. You seem to be unaware that exactly that is possible with the Evolution Data Server model which is used by Maemo: one database which multiple different programs access using *their own* GUI. > > Obviously you've not tried Modest. As Kevin tried to explain, Modest > > uses the Contacts database, not some silly seperate database, and thus > > integrates very nicely with all the other Maemo software. > > No, I haven't...and now I know *not* to... > > Every email app I've used to date instantly and painlessly imports and > exports address books, which is a darn sight better than Contacts will > ever do. Hasn't anybody learned the lesson from Micro$oft/IE that > "integration" is a *bad* thing? Only if it is based on closed data formats and proprietary technology. > Powerful, painless import and export > (and sync) are our friends. And you have that today? As someone who has worked on sync technology for quite a while now I can tell you that getting it right is exactly the PITA that you complain about. It just gets worse the more programs you want to sync with. > Integrated=proprietary+closed+PITA. > Import+Export=complete freedom between many completely different apps, > not only apps that perform similar functions, but completely different > functions. > > And the vCard format is incredibly clunky and limited. Not the best > choice for the only supported format. So what is the alternative format that gives you this "complete freedom between many completely different apps ... [with] completely different functions"? -- Bye, Patrick Ohly -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.estamos.de/ ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
I happen to have over 800 contacts and have been working with Graham on GPE-Contact and GPE_Calendar. He's very open to suggestions and help, I'm sure that if you gave him a clear explanation of which fields are imported wrong, he'll look into it and get it fixed. I just finally got the import to digest my contact file, and havent had a chance to get it cleaned up. I purchased the N800 as a mini laptop/PIM/MP3 player/and IP Phone. I've had it about a year or so and finally have a working PIM, even though like you I think the GPE-Contact part needs more work, but the whole GPE group are quite functional. Gary Baribault Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG Key: 0x4346F013 GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013 Mark wrote: > On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 10:13 AM, Uwe Kaminski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Am Donnerstag, den 19.06.2008, 09:04 -0600 schrieb Mark: >> >>> On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 2:10 AM, Uwe Kaminski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> So I don't would agree if somebody says the contacts application is very poor. It's like a small flower which has to grow. And yes, it would grow faster if the contacts application would be open source. Ciao Uwe >>> You're contradicting yourself and missing the point. If the >>> application weren't so poor, it wouldn't *need* to grow. And if >>> Pimlico does indeed use the exact same database, then clearly there is >>> something going on here that is not aboveboard, and Contacts is >>> deliberately crippled rather than simply a first effort. >>> >> >> Where is the problem? There is an back-end (the db) wich supports more >> than the standard front-end application could display. So choose an >> other flower from the bouquet of available applications. >> >> The other way round (less db fields; more fields like postal adress in >> the apps) would be much more worse. >> >> Ciao Uwe >> >> > > There are two problems: > 1) Whether Nokia wants to admit it or not, the tablets need a *good* > PIM out of the box. Developers apparently don't need real PIMs, but > consumers do. It doesn't qualify as a consumer device without it. > 2) If you're willing to enter all your data by hand, or edit each and > every imported field in order clean up the records, then gpe-contacts > and Pimlico are great. However, if you need good import/export > functionality, you're screwed regardless of which app you use, and > that includes the built-in Contacts app. > > I have over 400 records (with many fields) that I need to transfer to > & from my N800, so I definitely fall under the category of "you're > screwed". > > Mark > ___ > maemo-users mailing list > maemo-users@maemo.org > https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users > ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 10:13 AM, Uwe Kaminski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Am Donnerstag, den 19.06.2008, 09:04 -0600 schrieb Mark: >> On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 2:10 AM, Uwe Kaminski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> > So I don't would agree if somebody says the contacts application is very >> > poor. It's like a small flower which has to grow. And yes, it would grow >> > faster if the contacts application would be open source. >> > >> > Ciao Uwe >> >> You're contradicting yourself and missing the point. If the >> application weren't so poor, it wouldn't *need* to grow. And if >> Pimlico does indeed use the exact same database, then clearly there is >> something going on here that is not aboveboard, and Contacts is >> deliberately crippled rather than simply a first effort. > > Where is the problem? There is an back-end (the db) wich supports more > than the standard front-end application could display. So choose an > other flower from the bouquet of available applications. > > The other way round (less db fields; more fields like postal adress in > the apps) would be much more worse. > > Ciao Uwe > There are two problems: 1) Whether Nokia wants to admit it or not, the tablets need a *good* PIM out of the box. Developers apparently don't need real PIMs, but consumers do. It doesn't qualify as a consumer device without it. 2) If you're willing to enter all your data by hand, or edit each and every imported field in order clean up the records, then gpe-contacts and Pimlico are great. However, if you need good import/export functionality, you're screwed regardless of which app you use, and that includes the built-in Contacts app. I have over 400 records (with many fields) that I need to transfer to & from my N800, so I definitely fall under the category of "you're screwed". Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
Am Donnerstag, den 19.06.2008, 09:04 -0600 schrieb Mark: > On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 2:10 AM, Uwe Kaminski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > So I don't would agree if somebody says the contacts application is very > > poor. It's like a small flower which has to grow. And yes, it would grow > > faster if the contacts application would be open source. > > > > Ciao Uwe > > You're contradicting yourself and missing the point. If the > application weren't so poor, it wouldn't *need* to grow. And if > Pimlico does indeed use the exact same database, then clearly there is > something going on here that is not aboveboard, and Contacts is > deliberately crippled rather than simply a first effort. Where is the problem? There is an back-end (the db) wich supports more than the standard front-end application could display. So choose an other flower from the bouquet of available applications. The other way round (less db fields; more fields like postal adress in the apps) would be much more worse. Ciao Uwe -- Uwe Kaminski Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - OpenPGP: http://ju-key.de/publickey/jukey.asc Web: http://internettabletblog.de signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 2:10 AM, Uwe Kaminski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > So I don't would agree if somebody says the contacts application is very > poor. It's like a small flower which has to grow. And yes, it would grow > faster if the contacts application would be open source. > > Ciao Uwe You're contradicting yourself and missing the point. If the application weren't so poor, it wouldn't *need* to grow. And if Pimlico does indeed use the exact same database, then clearly there is something going on here that is not aboveboard, and Contacts is deliberately crippled rather than simply a first effort. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
Am Mittwoch, den 18.06.2008, 08:08 -0700 schrieb George Farris: > > The point being that the N800 Contacts app is so anaemic that it makes no > > sense > > to use it. It's a cheap plastic toy - sorry. > > As a user of the N800 I have to hardily agree with this. The contacts > app is very poor. That was my opinion too. But than I found some tuning solutions. First of all I want to say that the search option in the contacts application is very nice: incremental search over all fields Modest, pimlico contacts and the normal contacts application are all using the *same* database. So its no problem to add new mail addresses via modest or have a look for postal adresses via pimlico contacts. Next step would be synchronisation: Thats possible and works fine with syncevolution. I use scheduleworld.com as internetdatabase for contacts and so I'm able to sync the adresses of my mobile, my desktop-computers and my n800. A few month ago I installed the rtcomm beta release. After this a lot of IM services where selectable and I could use my normal home voip account on the tablet! I received calls to my home telephone on my n800 in the train while commuting. The contacts application was used by the messenger and voip-application. So I don't would agree if somebody says the contacts application is very poor. It's like a small flower which has to grow. And yes, it would grow faster if the contacts application would be open source. Ciao Uwe Links: pimlico contacts: http://www.pimlico-project.org/contacts.html syncevolution: http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/maemo/users/37414#37414 rtcomm beta release: http://rtcomm.garage.maemo.org/ signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
I've pointed out to both Nokia and Wayfinder that if the Contacts app would support all fields that Evolution will support (and Evolution most certainly will support physical addresses) and that if Wayfinder were to integrate that, then you could have all your contacts as waypoints, and easily navigate to them (this would be an example of how the device could actually benefit from having the physical addresses). ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
Just a matter of clarification: While I think that the Contacts application that ships with the tablets is pointless, there are two other options that do most of what I need. I'm using gpe-contacts, and I've also tried Pimlico just to see what it's like. Neither properly imported all the fields properly, but they are at least usable. Gpe didn't match the fields properly (which is annoying but not fatal), and Pimlico entered the quote marks in all the fields, which between the two issues is a bigger problem for me. However, if you ignore the import/export issues and limitations, either is adequate for the job. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Wed, 2008-06-18 at 10:13 +0100, David Greaves wrote: > I hope this isn't getting heated... :) > > However, very few paper envelopes have a lookup facility - and having a > portable > "little black book" is better than having to go back to my desktop machine. I > can use my N800 at home, I can't use my desktop out and about. > > The point being that the N800 Contacts app is so anaemic that it makes no > sense > to use it. It's a cheap plastic toy - sorry. As a user of the N800 I have to hardily agree with this. The contacts app is very poor. ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
Am Mittwoch, den 18.06.2008, 08:24 -0400 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 12:12:35PM +0300, Eero Tamminen wrote: > > I think your first mail was well argumented, maybe you could file > > an enhancement request to bugs.maemo.org (if there isn't similar > > one yet)? > > I was the original poster; I'll try to figure out how to do that. just go to https://bugs.maemo.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=Communication&component=Contacts&bug_severity=enhancement and fill in some text. :-) andre -- Andre Klapper (maemo.org bugmaster) ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 12:12:35PM +0300, Eero Tamminen wrote: > Hi, > > ext Mark Haury wrote: > >> The tablet is, to me, an electronic communications device. > >> Would I like for *all* my contact information to be in there? > >> Of course, but if we have to pick and choose, then it makes sense > >> to have the information that is immediately useful, like phone > >> numbers, e-mail addresses, and IM addresses (the latter two pretty > >> much the same, heck, with VOIP, all three pretty much the same). > >> > > Here's the biggest flaw in your argument: if there's already a contacts app > > with > > even one field, it's utterly trivial to add more fields, and criminal not > > to do > > so. It's not an issue of "picking and choosing". The app exists, it's just > > deliberately crippled, just like all those crippled locked cell phones out > > there. > > In general, the more stuff you put to the UI the more complicated > it becomes to the user, but good UI design should be able to help > with that. Although I might not agree with everything you said, :-) > I think your first mail was well argumented, maybe you could file > an enhancement request to bugs.maemo.org (if there isn't similar > one yet)? I was the original poster; I'll try to figure out how to do that. -- hendrik > > > - Eero > ___ > maemo-users mailing list > maemo-users@maemo.org > https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
-[ Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:40:46AM +0100, David Greaves ] > I'm new to this : Is Contacts proprietary? Apparently, yes it is. I'm also new to this, and like you I don't understand what trade secret could lie in there :) ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
Eero Tamminen wrote: > Hi, > > ext Mark Haury wrote: >>> The tablet is, to me, an electronic communications device. >>> Would I like for *all* my contact information to be in there? >>> Of course, but if we have to pick and choose, then it makes sense > >> to have the information that is immediately useful, like phone >>> numbers, e-mail addresses, and IM addresses (the latter two pretty >>> much the same, heck, with VOIP, all three pretty much the same). >>> >> Here's the biggest flaw in your argument: if there's already a contacts app >> with >> even one field, it's utterly trivial to add more fields, and criminal not to >> do >> so. It's not an issue of "picking and choosing". The app exists, it's just >> deliberately crippled, just like all those crippled locked cell phones out >> there. > > In general, the more stuff you put to the UI the more complicated > it becomes to the user, but good UI design should be able to help > with that. Although I might not agree with everything you said, :-) > I think your first mail was well argumented, maybe you could file > an enhancement request to bugs.maemo.org (if there isn't similar > one yet)? I'm new to this : Is Contacts proprietary? It seems behind the OSS curve rather than ahead of it so it would make no business sense for it to be closed. David ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
Hi, ext Mark Haury wrote: >> The tablet is, to me, an electronic communications device. >> Would I like for *all* my contact information to be in there? >> Of course, but if we have to pick and choose, then it makes sense >> to have the information that is immediately useful, like phone >> numbers, e-mail addresses, and IM addresses (the latter two pretty >> much the same, heck, with VOIP, all three pretty much the same). >> > Here's the biggest flaw in your argument: if there's already a contacts app > with > even one field, it's utterly trivial to add more fields, and criminal not to > do > so. It's not an issue of "picking and choosing". The app exists, it's just > deliberately crippled, just like all those crippled locked cell phones out > there. In general, the more stuff you put to the UI the more complicated it becomes to the user, but good UI design should be able to help with that. Although I might not agree with everything you said, :-) I think your first mail was well argumented, maybe you could file an enhancement request to bugs.maemo.org (if there isn't similar one yet)? - Eero ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
I hope this isn't getting heated... :) Kevin T. Neely wrote: > On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 04:34:09PM -0600, Mark wrote: >> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 12:25 PM, Kevin T. Neely >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:41:48AM -0600, Mark wrote: >>> >>> To follow your logic, >> No, you're most certainly *not* following my logic. My logic is that >> physical addresses are something that needs to be looked up, whereas > > > I am. Your logic was, "If the tablet does not do X, it does not need to > store Y" Well, following that, there is no need to store physical addresses > because the tablet cannot send actual, physical mail. It's a stupid > permutation but it does follow the logic trail you laid in the earlier > e-mail. Actually, that's not how I read it; I saw something more like: "you don't need to lookup phone numbers on it because the phone does it better and doesn't use the Contacts DB". Also "you don't need to lookup email addresses" for similar reasons. However, very few paper envelopes have a lookup facility - and having a portable "little black book" is better than having to go back to my desktop machine. I can use my N800 at home, I can't use my desktop out and about. The point being that the N800 Contacts app is so anaemic that it makes no sense to use it. It's a cheap plastic toy - sorry. >> ...and neither can its owner if they can't find the address... > > That's just circular, and you know it. If we follow that, then the > information it stored you thought was "useless" is not so. A phone number > cannot be dialled w/o the owner. Nor an e-mail address. 'Useless' is demonstrably wrong - 'almost never relevant in real world conditions' is more like it. > The tablet is, to me, an electronic communications device. Would I like for > *all* my contact information to be in there? Of course, but if we have to > pick and choose, then it makes sense to have the information that is > immediately useful, like phone numbers, e-mail addresses, and IM addresses > (the latter two pretty much the same, heck, with VOIP, all three pretty much > the same). Why do we have to pick and choose? Oh, is it because someone decided to start from scratch? Again. > Not that that matters much. The tablet is meant to be online. The newest > version is WIMAX-enabled, which should give a good idea of where Nokia is > going with it. A device of the future, always connected. I wonder whether it should have an LDAP server in there. One I can sync back to my LDAP or my service provider's, or a subset of my organisations or my google group online community or ... Hmm, why am I saying 'or'. David ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
Kevin T. Neely wrote: On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 04:34:09PM -0600, Mark wrote: On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 12:25 PM, Kevin T. Neely <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:41:48AM -0600, Mark wrote: To follow your logic, No, you're most certainly *not* following my logic. My logic is that physical addresses are something that needs to be looked up, whereas I am. Your logic was, "If the tablet does not do X, it does not need to store Y" Well, following that, there is no need to store physical addresses because the tablet cannot send actual, physical mail. It's a stupid permutation but it does follow the logic trail you laid in the earlier e-mail. You are so utterly wrong I don't know where to start. What I said was that there are better alternatives for storing and retrieving the pitiful bits of data that Contacts does store, but that the rather glaring omissions do *not* have any good alternatives. (I don't mean to imply that gpe or Pimlico are not good alternatives to Contact because they certainly are, I mean that a contact-type app is the best place to store street addresses.) If you do have a decent PIM, then yes, it makes sense to store every bit of contact data for that particular person in the same record. But that's the whole point anyway! There's no excuse for there not being a decent PIM out of the box. ...and neither can its owner if they can't find the address... That's just circular, and you know it. If we follow that, then the information it stored you thought was "useless" is not so. A phone number cannot be dialled w/o the owner. Nor an e-mail address. You obviously don't know the meaning of circular reasoning. My point was that if you need someone's mailing address, and can't find it in your tablet because there's no provision for storing that information in it, then the tablet is not doing you any good. You have to know an address or be able to look it up in order to write it on an envelope. As I said before: phone numbers are in the phone, and email addresses are in your email client, so having a Contents app to store *only* those bits of information is redundant and pointless. The app only becomes useful when it does something that you can't get any other way. The tablet is, to me, an electronic communications device. Would I like for *all* my contact information to be in there? Of course, but if we have to pick and choose, then it makes sense to have the information that is immediately useful, like phone numbers, e-mail addresses, and IM addresses (the latter two pretty much the same, heck, with VOIP, all three pretty much the same). Here's the biggest flaw in your argument: if there's already a contacts app with even one field, it's utterly trivial to add more fields, and criminal not to do so. It's not an issue of "picking and choosing". The app exists, it's just deliberately crippled, just like all those crippled locked cell phones out there. Why such resistance to something that is 1) Incredibly easy to solve if you're the original author of the app, and 2) would make the device significantly more attractive to consumers? And here's another flaw in your argument: as a "communications device", one thing that will turn up sooner or later is that you'll need to send someone else's snail mail address to a third party. If that information is not available, then it's not doing its job of communicating very well, is it? Let's see if I've got this straight: you're saying that it's somehow easier to drag out the tablet, start up Contacts, look up the person, make sure you're tethered to your phone with bluetooth, then use the tablet to tell the phone to dial the number, than to simply open the I think this has been addressed, but in short, tethering is simple and seamless in my usage. And, besides, I was really referring to using wi-fi. Not that that matters much. The tablet is meant to be online. The newest version is WIMAX-enabled, which should give a good idea of where Nokia is going with it. A device of the future, always connected. K ...and as I said before, all the VOIP, SIP and what have you clients also have other, better ways to store, add and find their respective contact info. You may be able to send the VOIP client that information from Contacts, but there's no reason to, and once again Contacts is redundant and pointless. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 04:34:09PM -0600, Mark wrote: > On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 12:25 PM, Kevin T. Neely > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:41:48AM -0600, Mark wrote: > > > > To follow your logic, > > No, you're most certainly *not* following my logic. My logic is that > physical addresses are something that needs to be looked up, whereas I am. Your logic was, "If the tablet does not do X, it does not need to store Y" Well, following that, there is no need to store physical addresses because the tablet cannot send actual, physical mail. It's a stupid permutation but it does follow the logic trail you laid in the earlier e-mail. > ...and neither can its owner if they can't find the address... That's just circular, and you know it. If we follow that, then the information it stored you thought was "useless" is not so. A phone number cannot be dialled w/o the owner. Nor an e-mail address. The tablet is, to me, an electronic communications device. Would I like for *all* my contact information to be in there? Of course, but if we have to pick and choose, then it makes sense to have the information that is immediately useful, like phone numbers, e-mail addresses, and IM addresses (the latter two pretty much the same, heck, with VOIP, all three pretty much the same). > Let's see if I've got this straight: you're saying that it's somehow > easier to drag out the tablet, start up Contacts, look up the person, > make sure you're tethered to your phone with bluetooth, then use the > tablet to tell the phone to dial the number, than to simply open the I think this has been addressed, but in short, tethering is simple and seamless in my usage. And, besides, I was really referring to using wi-fi. Not that that matters much. The tablet is meant to be online. The newest version is WIMAX-enabled, which should give a good idea of where Nokia is going with it. A device of the future, always connected. K -- In Vino Veritas http://astroturfgarden.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 04:34:09PM -0600, Mark wrote: > On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 12:25 PM, Kevin T. Neely > > Let's see if I've got this straight: you're saying that it's somehow > easier to drag out the tablet, start up Contacts, look up the person, > make sure you're tethered to your phone with bluetooth, then use the > tablet to tell the phone to dial the number, than to simply open the > phone, press a few buttons and make the call? (Or better yet, press > one button and use voice recognition to make the call.) Uh, I confess > you've got me speechless over that one... Except for the bluetooth bit, yes, when, as usual, I don't have such a phone on hand, but do have a plain old land line. > > "Famous last words"... > > So which is it? Are the tablets really intended to be consumer > devices, or are they just token gestures really meant only for > developers? If it's the latter, that's fine, but be honest about it. If they're meant for developers, it should be easier to install the software development environment.. -- hendrik ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 4:53 PM, Jesper Cheetah <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 04:34:09PM -0600, Mark wrote: >> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 12:25 PM, Kevin T. Neely >> > But the tablet *can* send e-mail and it *can* initiate voice >> > communications, >> > which is a good reason for it to store e-mail addresses. I >> > believe the RTcomm update allows you to initiate voice calls >> > to phone numbers that are stored in the contacts database but >> > I have not played with this. >> >> Let's see if I've got this straight: you're saying that it's somehow >> easier to drag out the tablet, start up Contacts, look up the person, >> make sure you're tethered to your phone with bluetooth, then use the >> tablet to tell the phone to dial the number, than to simply open the >> phone, press a few buttons and make the call? (Or better yet, press >> one button and use voice recognition to make the call.) Uh, I confess >> you've got me speechless over that one... > > Nope, you didn't get that straight. N800 (and I pressume the N810 as > well) can do VoIP/SIP by itself, thanks to rtcomm. It would require that > your N8x0 is online though, which admittedly isn't always the case. > I stand corrected. There has been some discussion of the capability I described, and I've never understood the attraction. However, the argument still stands. Having to open a separate application instead of working directly in the application you are really using is a PITA. I'm aware of Skype (and Gizmo), but don't know anyone else who is using it, so my account is inactive until I find someone else who's using it. I do know that Skype has its own address book which includes a very quick and easy "find" feature to add new contacts, and that's a whole lot more convenient and reliable than opening a separate app. (I just checked the built-in SIP client, and it's the same way: Contacts is indeed redundant and irrelevant.) >> > The internal contacts database also works with Modest, which is what >> > I use. Therefore, the e-mail program I use /does/ use the the >> > contacts database. >> >> ...and you don't have an address book in Modest? Or you don't use it? >> Again, you're saying that it's easier to open up a separate program >> and deal with it than to simply use the features of the program you're >> using. Modest's address book must really be a pile of crap!... > > Obviously you've not tried Modest. As Kevin tried to explain, Modest > uses the Contacts database, not some silly seperate database, and thus > integrates very nicely with all the other Maemo software. > > -- > Jesper Cheetah No, I haven't...and now I know *not* to... Every email app I've used to date instantly and painlessly imports and exports address books, which is a darn sight better than Contacts will ever do. Hasn't anybody learned the lesson from Micro$oft/IE that "integration" is a *bad* thing? Powerful, painless import and export (and sync) are our friends. Integrated=proprietary+closed+PITA. Import+Export=complete freedom between many completely different apps, not only apps that perform similar functions, but completely different functions. And the vCard format is incredibly clunky and limited. Not the best choice for the only supported format. Then there's the fact that Contacts doesn't remove the quote marks from any of the fields. PITA! Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 04:34:09PM -0600, Mark wrote: > On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 12:25 PM, Kevin T. Neely > > But the tablet *can* send e-mail and it *can* initiate voice > > communications, > > which is a good reason for it to store e-mail addresses. I > > believe the RTcomm update allows you to initiate voice calls > > to phone numbers that are stored in the contacts database but > > I have not played with this. > > Let's see if I've got this straight: you're saying that it's somehow > easier to drag out the tablet, start up Contacts, look up the person, > make sure you're tethered to your phone with bluetooth, then use the > tablet to tell the phone to dial the number, than to simply open the > phone, press a few buttons and make the call? (Or better yet, press > one button and use voice recognition to make the call.) Uh, I confess > you've got me speechless over that one... Nope, you didn't get that straight. N800 (and I pressume the N810 as well) can do VoIP/SIP by itself, thanks to rtcomm. It would require that your N8x0 is online though, which admittedly isn't always the case. > > The internal contacts database also works with Modest, which is what > > I use. Therefore, the e-mail program I use /does/ use the the > > contacts database. > > ...and you don't have an address book in Modest? Or you don't use it? > Again, you're saying that it's easier to open up a separate program > and deal with it than to simply use the features of the program you're > using. Modest's address book must really be a pile of crap!... Obviously you've not tried Modest. As Kevin tried to explain, Modest uses the Contacts database, not some silly seperate database, and thus integrates very nicely with all the other Maemo software. -- Jesper Cheetah ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 12:25 PM, Kevin T. Neely <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:41:48AM -0600, Mark wrote: >> Okay, what "problem" does it solve? It's not a cellphone, so phone >> numbers are no help. How many phone numbers do you need to look up > > To follow your logic, No, you're most certainly *not* following my logic. My logic is that physical addresses are something that needs to be looked up, whereas phone numbers and email addresses are always at one's fingertips whenever one needs them. > there is no reason that the tablet's > contacts profile should have physical addresses because it > cannot do anything with them. It certainly cannot send snail > mail, ...and neither can its owner if they can't find the address... > and until recently the tablets did not have GPS (a > reason for addresses to be included in Diablo perhaps?) > Sure they did! I have an N800 and a bluetooth GPSr. A USB GPSr would also probably work, or a serial one with a USB to serial adapter. Not that that's relevant, as addresses work very nicely in all local mapping software, as well as online, without any GPS capability at all. > > But the tablet *can* send e-mail and it *can* initiate voice > communications, > which is a good reason for it to store e-mail addresses. I > believe the RTcomm update allows you to initiate voice calls > to phone numbers that are stored in the contacts database but > I have not played with this. Let's see if I've got this straight: you're saying that it's somehow easier to drag out the tablet, start up Contacts, look up the person, make sure you're tethered to your phone with bluetooth, then use the tablet to tell the phone to dial the number, than to simply open the phone, press a few buttons and make the call? (Or better yet, press one button and use voice recognition to make the call.) Uh, I confess you've got me speechless over that one... > > The internal contacts database also works with Modest, which is what I use. > Therefore, the e-mail program I use /does/ use the the contacts database. > ...and you don't have an address book in Modest? Or you don't use it? Again, you're saying that it's easier to open up a separate program and deal with it than to simply use the features of the program you're using. Modest's address book must really be a pile of crap!... >> stores that? Almost none of my contacts have their own Web sites, and > > Mine do, and I cannot remember every single .edu/~username out there, nor do > I want to fill up my bookmarks with this, since it is such a small screen. > I repeat, if the tablets are considered strictly a developer's plaything, then yes, it may meet *your* needs as is. You are hardly the average consumer, though. For the average consumer, it is very far from it. > So, the contacts database may not fufill *your* needs, and it is far from > perfect, but it is certainly not useless. Many of your examples tell us why > Contacts does not fit Mark's needs, but do not demonstrate that the app is > useless. I would love for it to be better and more useful, but insisting on > using words like "Useless" does not help to foster useful discussion on the > topic. > >> Yeah, "useless" is exactly the correct term. If this is supposed to be >> a "consumer" device, it needs to meet the needs of consumers, not only > > A consumer device, yes. A Personal Information Manager, no. > > K > "Famous last words"... So which is it? Are the tablets really intended to be consumer devices, or are they just token gestures really meant only for developers? If it's the latter, that's fine, but be honest about it. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:41:48AM -0600, Mark wrote: > Okay, what "problem" does it solve? It's not a cellphone, so phone > numbers are no help. How many phone numbers do you need to look up To follow your logic, there is no reason that the tablet's contacts profile should have physical addresses because it cannot do anything with them. It certainly cannot send snail mail, and until recently the tablets did not have GPS (a reason for addresses to be included in Diablo perhaps?) But the tablet *can* send e-mail and it *can* initiate voice communications, which is a good reason for it to store e-mail addresses. I believe the RTcomm update allows you to initiate voice calls to phone numbers that are stored in the contacts database but I have not played with this. > when your cell phone stores those? It can't send email addresses to > anything but the built-in email app, so that's no help. How many times > do you need to look up someone's email address when your email program The internal contacts database also works with Modest, which is what I use. Therefore, the e-mail program I use /does/ use the the contacts database. > stores that? Almost none of my contacts have their own Web sites, and Mine do, and I cannot remember every single .edu/~username out there, nor do I want to fill up my bookmarks with this, since it is such a small screen. So, the contacts database may not fufill *your* needs, and it is far from perfect, but it is certainly not useless. Many of your examples tell us why Contacts does not fit Mark's needs, but do not demonstrate that the app is useless. I would love for it to be better and more useful, but insisting on using words like "Useless" does not help to foster useful discussion on the topic. > Yeah, "useless" is exactly the correct term. If this is supposed to be > a "consumer" device, it needs to meet the needs of consumers, not only A consumer device, yes. A Personal Information Manager, no. K -- In Vino Veritas http://astroturfgarden.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 4:46 AM, Aniello Del Sorbo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > IMHO, 'useless' is the wrong term. > The Contacts app, I am sure, was not meant to be a PIM Contacts application. > But a Contacts application for the Web (where, it makes some sense, the postal > address does not make much sense). > > It's simply targeted at solving a different problem than the one you > were expecting. > > It would make sense if it would have been integrated with the Map application: > Drive me to this contact. > Or, even better with GeoClue, drive me to the CURRENT position of this > Contact. > > Dream :/ > -- > anidel > Okay, what "problem" does it solve? It's not a cellphone, so phone numbers are no help. How many phone numbers do you need to look up when your cell phone stores those? It can't send email addresses to anything but the built-in email app, so that's no help. How many times do you need to look up someone's email address when your email program stores that? Almost none of my contacts have their own Web sites, and all browsers have their own bookmarks, so that's pointless. How many people (especially as a percentage of your contacts list) use Jabber or SIP? (Exactly zero of mine, and that includes myself.) On the other hand, I frequently need to look up a physical address in order to snail mail something or travel to a location. I frequently also need searchable notes and custom fields, so I can find a contact by information other than their personal name or make decisions based on information that is completely unrelated to geography or communications. I need multiple phone numbers (home, work, mobile, winter, summer, etc.), some with extensions or non-numeric information. I need multiple addresses (home, work, winter, summer, etc.). I need custom fields that contain codes or information that have meaning only to me, and don't fall under any of the headings that are provided. My 10-year-old Visor Deluxe with a whopping 10MHz processor, 4-grey LCD screen and 8Mb memory does all that (except for field naming). How difficult could it possibly be? By the way, "custom field" means that every attribute of a field can be edited, *including* the name, data type and length. It doesn't mean simply that you can add multiple instances of the same exact field, or select from a limited list of names. Yeah, "useless" is exactly the correct term. If this is supposed to be a "consumer" device, it needs to meet the needs of consumers, not only developers (or no one at all). The issue of whether or not the tablets should come with a real PIM has pretty much been beat to death, but IMO Nokia is taking exactly the wrong stance if they ever want the consumer sales of these devices to approach meaningful numbers. People don't want to lug around more devices than they have to. If a new device can't *replace* their old device, but only does a few new things that aren't compelling, they aren't going to buy it, and more importantly aren't going to use it regularly or recommend it to their friends. So far, none of the tablets have a "killer app" that makes functionality irrelevant to buyers. If the tablet can't do anything that a person's cell phone can't do, what's the point? (And no, display size & resolution alone aren't going to be the selling point.) There are plenty of cellphones out there that do everything the tablets do and then some, many at a lower price point and some as little as half the cost of the N810 - *UNLOCKED!* And the sticking point is that they *all* have *real* PIMs. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 11:08 PM, Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: ... > > You're correct: the Contacts app that comes with the tablet is > completely useless, as it only has fields for name, email, Jabber, > SIP, Nickname, Web page URL and phone number. Some of those are only > available if you click the "Add field" button. > IMHO, 'useless' is the wrong term. The Contacts app, I am sure, was not meant to be a PIM Contacts application. But a Contacts application for the Web (where, it makes some sense, the postal address does not make much sense). It's simply targeted at solving a different problem than the one you were expecting. It would make sense if it would have been integrated with the Map application: Drive me to this contact. Or, even better with GeoClue, drive me to the CURRENT position of this Contact. Dream :/ -- anidel ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
Well, it seams easy to fix. Don't we have the source somewhere of the osso-addressbook package ? I can't find it in catalogue.tableteer.nokia.com . Or is the mighty addressbook application proprietary ? :-) ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 3:23 PM, Dylan McCall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I'm using a n800 with the factory-installed OS. >> >> Does the Contacts application really provide no way to enter a street >> address, that is, a regular postal mailing address, the plain old >> physical-letter-in-a-physical-envelope-with-a-stamp-on-it kind of address? >> People still do need to write letters on paper sometimes. >> >> When I select contact->New Contact I get to provide First Name, Last Name, >> Nickname, E-mail, and Jabber. For a while I was astounded that there >> was no provision for a phone number. But then I discovered I could also >> choose Add Field and get to provide E-mail (again?) Phone, >> Web Address, and Jabber (again?). >> >> But no plain old old-fashioned address. I don't even need to >> formally split into street names and numbers, etc. >> Just a plain old multi-line text field would do (Unicode or UTF-8 >> preferred, of course). > > I find that Pimlico Contacts does this job rather well. Whether Pimlico > is a good suite or not seems to be a hotly debated issue. I have kept my > nose out of that issue and have maintained blissful ignorance to its > flaws, whatever they be. The reason I like it for contacts is because it > talks to the contacts system built in to Maemo. Regrettably, the > integration of the chat system and the rest of contacts seems to produce > nothing but messes for me, likely because I frequently talk to myself > over a variety of messaging protocols, but I am sure other people see > different results. > > Rather importantly, Pimlico does custom fields, and (I believe...) uses > Evolution. > > Bye, > -Dylan > > PS: Oh, and hi, list! > For those of us new to Pimlico, here it is: http://www.pimlico-project.org/index.html Contacts: http://www.pimlico-project.org/contacts.html And here's the Maemo-specific information: http://maemo.o-hand.com/ ITOS 2008 (Nokia N810, N800) Web address: http://maemo.o-hand.com/packages Distribution: chinook/ Components: IT2007 (Nokia N800) Web address: http://maemo.o-hand.com/packages Distribution: bora/ Components: Nokia 770 Web address: http://maemo.o-hand.com/packages Distribution: gregale/ Components: Apparently one has to add the repository manually. To do that, i Application Manager go to Tools->Application Catalog, then click "New", and fill in the blanks. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
> I'm using a n800 with the factory-installed OS. > > Does the Contacts application really provide no way to enter a street > address, that is, a regular postal mailing address, the plain old > physical-letter-in-a-physical-envelope-with-a-stamp-on-it kind of address? > People still do need to write letters on paper sometimes. > > When I select contact->New Contact I get to provide First Name, Last Name, > Nickname, E-mail, and Jabber. For a while I was astounded that there > was no provision for a phone number. But then I discovered I could also > choose Add Field and get to provide E-mail (again?) Phone, > Web Address, and Jabber (again?). > > But no plain old old-fashioned address. I don't even need to > formally split into street names and numbers, etc. > Just a plain old multi-line text field would do (Unicode or UTF-8 > preferred, of course). I find that Pimlico Contacts does this job rather well. Whether Pimlico is a good suite or not seems to be a hotly debated issue. I have kept my nose out of that issue and have maintained blissful ignorance to its flaws, whatever they be. The reason I like it for contacts is because it talks to the contacts system built in to Maemo. Regrettably, the integration of the chat system and the rest of contacts seems to produce nothing but messes for me, likely because I frequently talk to myself over a variety of messaging protocols, but I am sure other people see different results. Rather importantly, Pimlico does custom fields, and (I believe...) uses Evolution. Bye, -Dylan PS: Oh, and hi, list! signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Postal address in Contacts?
On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 2:41 PM, Hendrik Boom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I'm using a n800 with the factory-installed OS. > > Does the Contacts application really provide no way to enter a street > address, that is, a regular postal mailing address, the plain old > physical-letter-in-a-physical-envelope-with-a-stamp-on-it kind of address? > People still do need to write letters on paper sometimes. > > When I select contact->New Contact I get to provide First Name, Last Name, > Nickname, E-mail, and Jabber. For a while I was astounded that there > was no provision for a phone number. But then I discovered I could also > choose Add Field and get to provide E-mail (again?) Phone, > Web Address, and Jabber (again?). > > But no plain old old-fashioned address. I don't even need to > formally split into street names and numbers, etc. > Just a plain old multi-line text field would do (Unicode or UTF-8 > preferred, of course). > > -- hendrik > You're correct: the Contacts app that comes with the tablet is completely useless, as it only has fields for name, email, Jabber, SIP, Nickname, Web page URL and phone number. Some of those are only available if you click the "Add field" button. The gpe Contacts app is much better and has a *lot* more fields (including physical addresses), but it's still limited and doesn't give you the option to add any custom fields, so you're out of luck if you need anything that isn't already included. It also only allows numerals in phone number fields, so if you have a number thats like this: "1-546-456-5792 ext.3928" you're once again out of luck because it won't accept the "ext.". You can get around that by using a dash instead of the alpha characters, but then it isn't technically correct. It's still more than adequate for many people. If you have the "Extras" repository enabled, it should show up in your Application Manager. Click "Browse installable applications", then "All", then scroll down to "gpe-contacts". You can also try this link: http://www.cobb.uk.net/NokiaIT/gpe-contacts.install Which comes from the homepage of the developer: http://www.cobb.uk.net/770/index.html#gpe Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
