Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Le 2010-10-07 04:03, Olivier Méjean a écrit : > > Actually, Mandriva did do this, but on a smaller scale, when installing > the ISO you got the the choice of desktop KDE, GNOME or personalized > (http://wiki.mandriva.com/fr/Installer_Mandriva_Free#Choix_du_bureau). > In the personalized section, you could still choose (in my case) the KDE > but also any other "distro type" of pick that you wanted. It would make > sense to offer the choices here. For example "Gamer"; "Business"; > "Music"; "Video"; "Education" etc. The users could, at this point, > tailor the installation to one that would suit them best according to > their needs. All on one DVD! No need to have multiple type of DVD's. > > This would be simple enough. > > Marc > something like :http://www.juzt-innovations.ie/fedora-linux-backup/linux- fedora-custom-install.jpg Yes. We essentially already have this with the step in the installation process at the "Pick your desktop": KDE(checkbox)..Gnome(checkbox)..Personalized (checkbox) (Note that on this page I would have a "Help" link describing what each of these choices represent) But once inside the "Personalized" section, we could have the extra options. Marc
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Le 2010-10-06 17:27, andré a écrit :
Hoyt Duff a écrit :
On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 3:11 PM,
andré wrote:
So far in simplified terms, for the "education" target, we have focus on
school boards in US/Canada and Australia/New Zealand; focus on regional
gov'ts in Germany.
Here I mean focus in terms of promotion, not in terms of the content of
the DVD.
Do you have a link to any Mandriva docs that detail how the package
lists for different "targets" can be created and implemented?
In short, it would be part of creating the installation DVD.
Mandriva does not implement this function in a manner useful to our
purposes.
Let me explain.
There would be a number of install groups, (for want of a better
expression), all on the same DVD.
Each group will have a list of packages to be installed, which could be
individually selected/deselected as desired.
This is similar to what is already available on a Mandriva install DVD,
with an important difference : install groups would not be mutually
exclusive.
In other words, the "education" group (targeting school needs), the
"young family" group (targeting families with young children), and the
"home office" group, would probably all contain, for example, a version
of OpenOffice (be it Go-oo, LibreOffice, or the officiel OpenOffice from
Oracle/Sun).
Currently, on a Mandriva installation DVD, each application is in only
one group.("Server" being one of their groups.)
Overlapping installation groups allows us to target many uses on the
same DVD.
We could consider a target as a usage focus.
Many users would have more than one focus -- for example, developers
would want various development tools, as well as maybe "home office" if
they are an independant consultant.
There also could be a multi-level tree. A global group for developers,
with a sub-group for packagers (RPM tools), another for C/C++, another
for Perl, etc.
Or for a potentially more common theme, a global group for education,
with sub-groups for "pre-school/kindergarten", "elementary",
"secondary", "post-secondary".
And these various subgroups would almost necessarily have overlaps.
The possibilities are only limited by our collective imaginations.
The more I think of this, I see an advantage of allowing the DVD
installer to access an external group file, (on a usb memory key for
example), for more flexibility on installation.
Especially useful to install the same software selection on a large
number of computers -- without creating a custom installation DVD.
Think of the potential :)
- André (andre999)
Actually, Mandriva did do this, but on a smaller scale, when installing
the ISO you got the the choice of desktop KDE, GNOME or personalized
(http://wiki.mandriva.com/fr/Installer_Mandriva_Free#Choix_du_bureau).
In the personalized section, you could still choose (in my case) the KDE
but also any other "distro type" of pick that you wanted. It would make
sense to offer the choices here. For example "Gamer"; "Business";
"Music"; "Video"; "Education" etc. The users could, at this point,
tailor the installation to one that would suit them best according to
their needs. All on one DVD! No need to have multiple type of DVD's.
This would be simple enough.
Marc
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
My purposes for my computer is primarily for home office purposes with the
occasional gaming. I would say that would be the typical target audience.
Do you remember, years ago, how Mandriva had a kind of "store" where you could
buy software, a one click installation system. Would it be possible to do
custom installation through a kind of web-based gui to keep it simple for
those first starting off with Linux. I'm thinking, something like the "App
Store" that Apple uses. It could be free or some things could be for cost...
just a thought.
-Nathan
On Wednesday, 06 October 2010 17:27:20 andré wrote:
> Hoyt Duff a écrit :
> > On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 3:11 PM, andré wrote:
> >> So far in simplified terms, for the "education" target, we have focus on
> >> school boards in US/Canada and Australia/New Zealand; focus on regional
> >> gov'ts in Germany.
>
> Here I mean focus in terms of promotion, not in terms of the content of
> the DVD.
>
> > Do you have a link to any Mandriva docs that detail how the package
> > lists for different "targets" can be created and implemented?
>
> In short, it would be part of creating the installation DVD.
>
> Mandriva does not implement this function in a manner useful to our
> purposes.
> Let me explain.
>
> There would be a number of install groups, (for want of a better
> expression), all on the same DVD.
> Each group will have a list of packages to be installed, which could be
> individually selected/deselected as desired.
> This is similar to what is already available on a Mandriva install DVD,
> with an important difference : install groups would not be mutually
> exclusive.
>
> In other words, the "education" group (targeting school needs), the
> "young family" group (targeting families with young children), and the
> "home office" group, would probably all contain, for example, a version
> of OpenOffice (be it Go-oo, LibreOffice, or the officiel OpenOffice from
> Oracle/Sun).
> Currently, on a Mandriva installation DVD, each application is in only
> one group.("Server" being one of their groups.)
>
> Overlapping installation groups allows us to target many uses on the
> same DVD.
> We could consider a target as a usage focus.
> Many users would have more than one focus -- for example, developers
> would want various development tools, as well as maybe "home office" if
> they are an independant consultant.
> There also could be a multi-level tree. A global group for developers,
> with a sub-group for packagers (RPM tools), another for C/C++, another
> for Perl, etc.
> Or for a potentially more common theme, a global group for education,
> with sub-groups for "pre-school/kindergarten", "elementary",
> "secondary", "post-secondary".
> And these various subgroups would almost necessarily have overlaps.
> The possibilities are only limited by our collective imaginations.
>
> The more I think of this, I see an advantage of allowing the DVD
> installer to access an external group file, (on a usb memory key for
> example), for more flexibility on installation.
> Especially useful to install the same software selection on a large
> number of computers -- without creating a custom installation DVD.
>
> Think of the potential :)
>
> - André (andre999)
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Hoyt Duff a écrit :
On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 3:11 PM, andré wrote:
So far in simplified terms, for the "education" target, we have focus on
school boards in US/Canada and Australia/New Zealand; focus on regional
gov'ts in Germany.
Here I mean focus in terms of promotion, not in terms of the content of
the DVD.
Do you have a link to any Mandriva docs that detail how the package
lists for different "targets" can be created and implemented?
In short, it would be part of creating the installation DVD.
Mandriva does not implement this function in a manner useful to our
purposes.
Let me explain.
There would be a number of install groups, (for want of a better
expression), all on the same DVD.
Each group will have a list of packages to be installed, which could be
individually selected/deselected as desired.
This is similar to what is already available on a Mandriva install DVD,
with an important difference : install groups would not be mutually
exclusive.
In other words, the "education" group (targeting school needs), the
"young family" group (targeting families with young children), and the
"home office" group, would probably all contain, for example, a version
of OpenOffice (be it Go-oo, LibreOffice, or the officiel OpenOffice from
Oracle/Sun).
Currently, on a Mandriva installation DVD, each application is in only
one group.("Server" being one of their groups.)
Overlapping installation groups allows us to target many uses on the
same DVD.
We could consider a target as a usage focus.
Many users would have more than one focus -- for example, developers
would want various development tools, as well as maybe "home office" if
they are an independant consultant.
There also could be a multi-level tree. A global group for developers,
with a sub-group for packagers (RPM tools), another for C/C++, another
for Perl, etc.
Or for a potentially more common theme, a global group for education,
with sub-groups for "pre-school/kindergarten", "elementary",
"secondary", "post-secondary".
And these various subgroups would almost necessarily have overlaps.
The possibilities are only limited by our collective imaginations.
The more I think of this, I see an advantage of allowing the DVD
installer to access an external group file, (on a usb memory key for
example), for more flexibility on installation.
Especially useful to install the same software selection on a large
number of computers -- without creating a custom installation DVD.
Think of the potential :)
- André (andre999)
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : 2010/10/3 Marc Paré: Le 2010-10-03 05:10, Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : Who said we do have an education problem? I am not sure, I certainly did not say that there was a problem. You seem to be comfortable enough with it, and I don't have a problem with that. LOL! No, I'm not comfortable with that! That sentencs was a poor attempt on being sarcastic! We DO have an education system problem, there is a drifference in education based on which state of Germany you went to school, there are students and parents demonstrating on the streets, there is a growing number of private schools (which were very rare in Germany only 20 years ago), only open for parents with money, etc. OMG, I get carried away on this topic That's good. Shows that you're mind is alive ! Maybe they just need a good dose of Mageia ;) - André (andre999)
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 3:11 PM, andré wrote: > So far in simplified terms, for the "education" target, we have focus on > school boards in US/Canada and Australia/New Zealand; focus on regional > gov'ts in Germany. > Do you have a link to any Mandriva docs that detail how the package lists for different "targets" can be created and implemented? -- Hoyt
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Selecting an "Education based" install (which could be used with other software selections is what I had in mind. This could be called the "Education software group" (for want of a better name). Like that you don't need a special "Education" version, it's the same DVD for everyone. Of course, the necessary education software has to be on the DVD. An excellent way to promote Mageia. In fact, using a common DVD, students could take a copy home, and install as well, the "young family" and/or "home office" software groups. (Which would necessarily overlap to some extent.) That would work nicely. There is really no need for separate CD's seeing that many of the software packages would be complementary from one type of install to the next. The only problem that I would see in doing such a promotion is that this type of usage would require a server/client solution. This is where the choice of server partnership would become important. RehHat and Suse are well-known servers options in the business world. We could then partner up with them and make sure that Mageia/RedHat or Mageia/Suse solutions are rock solid. Unless we seek a partnership with MandrivaLinux server, but in North American markets, Mandriva is really not a force to contend with and is not really known. Marc Since we're in Canada, Mageia/RedHat and Mageia/Suse make sense due to the greater North American presence, but Mandriva server is a major player in the European and South American markets. The advantage of using Mandriva server in Canada is English/French in the education system in every province. Like I've already said elsewhere, I'd like to see some accommodation with Mandriva for the commercial/server side. In any case, we could always offer a choice of servers. RedHat, Suse, and Mandriva all use compatible RPM packaging. André (andre999) Yes, so I guess if there were different options of installations it would be a good start. Marc
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Marc Paré a écrit : Le 2010-10-03 05:20, Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : 2010/10/3 Tux99: Germans are used to not question authorities, so this is not strange. Different country, different mentality, that's why talking abut global PR/marketing strategies makes little sense. So many global corporations had to learn this the hard way. Germany is only one example among others. But I just remember this theory that at the end of the day you can apply market strategies worldwide only with small adjustments. That's crap. I know somebody in the marketing dep of a large supplier fo baby food. They deliver to more than 25 countries in Europe and Middle East - you know what? They had to implement 8 totally different marketing strategies for those 25 countries becaus of totally different mind sets, cultures, religions, family structures, etc. In general: I do not agree to a specialized marketing strategy with a comparatively small target group. I don't believe that anyone is talking about having a global strategy for Mageia. The subject line does say "Identifying Target Markets". I believe the intent was to focus on some groups where there was a possibility of expanding the usage of Mageia. Adapting to regional differences would then make part of the target strategy. Marc Exactly. We would hopefully identify at least several target markets. So far we seem to have at least 2 : "Education" and "young family". And then we need the help of those from the various regions around the world to help us penetrate these markets. So far in simplified terms, for the "education" target, we have focus on school boards in US/Canada and Australia/New Zealand; focus on regional gov'ts in Germany. Think we're making progress, everyone :) - André (andre999)
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Marc Paré a écrit : Targeting the school boards makes a lot of sense. Note that Openoffice targeted various gov't organisations in France, some of which ended up migrating to Mandriva as well. Maybe that could work with school boards as well. I'm tempted to try something like that with mine, in banlieue of Montréal. Just out of curiosity, what is your school board ? For the server, if Mandriva management were a little more reasonable, it would be good to partner with them. (I'd like to see something like RedHat/Fedora.) In any case, you can't go wrong with RedHat. André (andre999) Bonjour André: Salut Marc : (sorry for the slow reply, didn't notice it right away) As an example, the official word from the Ontario Ministry of Education is that if users cannot afford the use of MSOffice, that we are allowed to promote the use of StarOffice. Here is the official link: http://www.osapac.org/db/view_software.php?id=310 Sun had made arrangements to provide support through their 1-800 ... telephone service (unofficially, they had also said that they would have supported OpenOffice user queries as well, although this policy may have changed after this policy had been posted on the net). There are over 2 million students being taught in Ontario where I teach. Quite a good market to target. You can find the statistics on registered school student numbers here: http://www42.statcan.ca/smr08/2007/smr08_088_2007-eng.htm Interesting contract. I've read of similar approaches in France with OpenOffice or StarOffice, where they ended up installing (at least some) Mandriva workstations. If we were to commit to an "Education based" install (this could be done at the point of installation where you could tag the type of distro that you would want installed) with SOLID alternatives for the most common software packages used in educational institutions, then we could make a convincing case for the installation of Mageia desktops in schools. Most governmental agencies today are sensitive to ways of cutting down on expenses. Selecting an "Education based" install (which could be used with other software selections is what I had in mind. This could be called the "Education software group" (for want of a better name). Like that you don't need a special "Education" version, it's the same DVD for everyone. Of course, the necessary education software has to be on the DVD. An excellent way to promote Mageia. In fact, using a common DVD, students could take a copy home, and install as well, the "young family" and/or "home office" software groups. (Which would necessarily overlap to some extent.) The only problem that I would see in doing such a promotion is that this type of usage would require a server/client solution. This is where the choice of server partnership would become important. RehHat and Suse are well-known servers options in the business world. We could then partner up with them and make sure that Mageia/RedHat or Mageia/Suse solutions are rock solid. Unless we seek a partnership with MandrivaLinux server, but in North American markets, Mandriva is really not a force to contend with and is not really known. Marc Since we're in Canada, Mageia/RedHat and Mageia/Suse make sense due to the greater North American presence, but Mandriva server is a major player in the European and South American markets. The advantage of using Mandriva server in Canada is English/French in the education system in every province. Like I've already said elsewhere, I'd like to see some accommodation with Mandriva for the commercial/server side. In any case, we could always offer a choice of servers. RedHat, Suse, and Mandriva all use compatible RPM packaging. André (andre999)
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
2010/10/3 Marc Paré : > Le 2010-10-03 05:10, Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : >> >> Who said we do have an education problem? > > I am not sure, I certainly did not say that there was a problem. You seem to > be comfortable enough with it, and I don't have a problem with that. LOL! No, I'm not comfortable with that! That sentencs was a poor attempt on being sarcastic! We DO have an education system problem, there is a drifference in education based on which state of Germany you went to school, there are students and parents demonstrating on the streets, there is a growing number of private schools (which were very rare in Germany only 20 years ago), only open for parents with money, etc. OMG, I get carried away on this topic
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Le 2010-10-03 05:10, Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : 2010/10/3 Marc Paré: It is strange that parents, teachers and even students would not have a say. How can there be an acquisition and amortization period for your software programmes if you do not consult with your partners? Schools and parents and students are not partners for the politicians. The problem is, high level MS reps (even Mr. Gates did) visit the MP (like the governor of a US state) and talks with him. Then the contracts are signed and the whole hierarchy downwards has to act according to those contracts. Schools and students and parents are at the bottom of that hierarchy. Who said we do have an education problem? I am not sure, I certainly did not say that there was a problem. You seem to be comfortable enough with it, and I don't have a problem with that. the politicians would then have to try to rationalize the reasons why they spent the $ for software that nobody uses. There must be a consultative process otherwise your educational system would have complained for sure. They do complain, so what? The politicians have their opinions and they act upon that. If the people's annoyance level is high enough the people will show it at next elections. But whoever they vote for, they are jsut the same. Sorry, I did not want to get into politics, it's just that over here all education is ruled by the verious states of our federal republic. wobo This is not talking about politics. If you were not informing us of the decision process, then we would not know. You are in fact informing us how to better target groups in the educational sector in Germany. Cheers Marc
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Le 2010-10-03 05:20, Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : 2010/10/3 Tux99: Germans are used to not question authorities, so this is not strange. Different country, different mentality, that's why talking abut global PR/marketing strategies makes little sense. So many global corporations had to learn this the hard way. Germany is only one example among others. But I just remember this theory that at the end of the day you can apply market strategies worldwide only with small adjustments. That's crap. I know somebody in the marketing dep of a large supplier fo baby food. They deliver to more than 25 countries in Europe and Middle East - you know what? They had to implement 8 totally different marketing strategies for those 25 countries becaus of totally different mind sets, cultures, religions, family structures, etc. In general: I do not agree to a specialized marketing strategy with a comparatively small target group. I don't believe that anyone is talking about having a global strategy for Mageia. The subject line does say "Identifying Target Markets". I believe the intent was to focus on some groups where there was a possibility of expanding the usage of Mageia. Adapting to regional differences would then make part of the target strategy. Marc
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
2010/10/3 Tux99 : > > Germans are used to not question authorities, so this is not strange. > Different country, different mentality, that's why talking abut global > PR/marketing strategies makes little sense. > > So many global corporations had to learn this the hard way. Germany is only one example among others. But I just remember this theory that at the end of the day you can apply market strategies worldwide only with small adjustments. That's crap. I know somebody in the marketing dep of a large supplier fo baby food. They deliver to more than 25 countries in Europe and Middle East - you know what? They had to implement 8 totally different marketing strategies for those 25 countries becaus of totally different mind sets, cultures, religions, family structures, etc. In general: I do not agree to a specialized marketing strategy with a comparatively small target group.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
2010/10/3 Marc Paré : > > It is strange that parents, teachers and even students would not have a say. > How can there be an acquisition and amortization period for your software > programmes if you do not consult with your partners? Schools and parents and students are not partners for the politicians. The problem is, high level MS reps (even Mr. Gates did) visit the MP (like the governor of a US state) and talks with him. Then the contracts are signed and the whole hierarchy downwards has to act according to those contracts. Schools and students and parents are at the bottom of that hierarchy. Who said we do have an education problem? > the politicians would then have to try to > rationalize the reasons why they spent the $ for software that nobody > uses. There must be a consultative process otherwise your educational system > would have complained for sure. They do complain, so what? The politicians have their opinions and they act upon that. If the people's annoyance level is high enough the people will show it at next elections. But whoever they vote for, they are jsut the same. Sorry, I did not want to get into politics, it's just that over here all education is ruled by the verious states of our federal republic. wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Quote: marc wrote on Sun, 03 October 2010 10:57 > There must be a consultative process otherwise your > educational system would have complained for sure. > Germans are used to not question authorities, so this is not strange. Different country, different mentality, that's why talking abut global PR/marketing strategies makes little sense. So many global corporations had to learn this the hard way.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Le 2010-10-03 04:34, Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : 2010/10/3 Marc Paré: I can't speak for André (he sounds like he is Canadian), but I am not a US citizen, I am Canadian. Our school system and software purchase models are the same as you describe. However, we do consult with school boards and interested partners before acquiring software licences. I am sure, the German states would consult with their partners before doing such as well Unfortunately they do not. There have been lots of discussions but especially the hierarchy concerning education is very tight over here. All decisions are political decisions, not primarily based on technics or facts but on the political programs. SIngle schools or parents or students are not involved in such decisions. wobo It is strange that parents, teachers and even students would not have a say. How can there be an acquisition and amortization period for your software programmes if you do not consult with your partners? I do not know of any system where it would survive without input from groups using the software/hardware. Otherwise, people would simply not use the software that was dictated to them and the politicians would then have to try to rationalize the reasons why they spent the $ for software that nobody uses. There must be a consultative process otherwise your educational system would have complained for sure. In Canada, and in my province of Ontario, we are even mandated to get input from our students. We all have a say. That is not to say that there is no political involvement, but even so, voices of all ages are heard and reported back to the people in charge of planning and purchases. Marc
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
> Unfortunately they do not. There have been lots of discussions but > especially the hierarchy concerning education is very tight over here. > All decisions are political decisions, not primarily based on technics > or facts but on the political programs. SIngle schools or parents or > students are not involved in such decisions. > > wobo Maybe you should send the German bureaucrats to Canada for re-education eh? ;)
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
2010/10/3 Marc Paré : > > I can't speak for André (he sounds like he is Canadian), but I am not a US > citizen, I am Canadian. Our school system and software purchase models are > the same as you describe. However, we do consult with school boards and > interested partners before acquiring software licences. I am sure, the > German states would consult with their partners before doing such as well Unfortunately they do not. There have been lots of discussions but especially the hierarchy concerning education is very tight over here. All decisions are political decisions, not primarily based on technics or facts but on the political programs. SIngle schools or parents or students are not involved in such decisions. wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Sunday 03 Oct 2010 21:06:22 Marc Paré wrote: > Le 2010-10-03 02:34, Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : > > 2010/10/3 andré: > >> Targeting the school boards makes a lot of sense. > > > > Again this is something you can not generalize, different countries > > have different structures. > > In Germany it is not a school board who decides what software will be > > bought for a certain region or school. This is decided on state level > > for the various states of the federal republic. You have to go to some > > state office and compete with the reps of Microsoft. You do not talk > > to parents or teachers, it's some bureaucrats who decide this over > > here (with very few exceptions). > > > > Same with many other countries. This school board system as in the US > > is not a world wide system. > > I can't speak for André (he sounds like he is Canadian), but I am not a > US citizen, I am Canadian. Our school system and software purchase > models are the same as you describe. However, we do consult with school > boards and interested partners before acquiring software licences. I am > sure, the German states would consult with their partners before doing > such as well. We have provinces in Canada and, as you say, in Germany > you have states -- same hierarchy but with different names. As far as I > know, the American model is more of a federalist model and > consultation/coordination is done mostly from a national point of view. > I am sure someone on the list will straighten us out on this account. > > We shouldn't assume that, if people describe a different system on this > ML, that they are therefore American citizen who are trying to impose it > on everyone. I just assume that we are all Canadians on the list > (chuckles). I noticed that there seemed to be an overwhelming sense of reasonableness, Maybe you're right. ;) > > Marc GL -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant. INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Open Technologies) www.theingots.org
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Le 2010-10-03 02:34, Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : 2010/10/3 andré: Targeting the school boards makes a lot of sense. Again this is something you can not generalize, different countries have different structures. In Germany it is not a school board who decides what software will be bought for a certain region or school. This is decided on state level for the various states of the federal republic. You have to go to some state office and compete with the reps of Microsoft. You do not talk to parents or teachers, it's some bureaucrats who decide this over here (with very few exceptions). Same with many other countries. This school board system as in the US is not a world wide system. I can't speak for André (he sounds like he is Canadian), but I am not a US citizen, I am Canadian. Our school system and software purchase models are the same as you describe. However, we do consult with school boards and interested partners before acquiring software licences. I am sure, the German states would consult with their partners before doing such as well. We have provinces in Canada and, as you say, in Germany you have states -- same hierarchy but with different names. As far as I know, the American model is more of a federalist model and consultation/coordination is done mostly from a national point of view. I am sure someone on the list will straighten us out on this account. We shouldn't assume that, if people describe a different system on this ML, that they are therefore American citizen who are trying to impose it on everyone. I just assume that we are all Canadians on the list (chuckles). Marc
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Sunday 03 Oct 2010 19:34:28 Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > 2010/10/3 andré : > > Targeting the school boards makes a lot of sense. > > Again this is something you can not generalize, different countries > have different structures. > In Germany it is not a school board who decides what software will be > bought for a certain region or school. This is decided on state level > for the various states of the federal republic. You have to go to some > state office and compete with the reps of Microsoft. You do not talk > to parents or teachers, it's some bureaucrats who decide this over > here (with very few exceptions). > > Same with many other countries. This school board system as in the US > is not a world wide system. Marc is talking about Canada and despite rumours to the contrary, Canada is as much a part of the US as New Zealand is a part of Australia. And In fact in all of these countries and the UK as a matter of fact, software purchase is a school decision. Education Departments, as in NZ, may negotiate with vendors for a block price for schools but the purchase is the schools decision. Targeting schools does make a lot of sense in a Global context. One local school here just went with Ubuntu on 1500 netbooks http://manaiakalani.blogspot.com/search/label/1%3A1 which will be one for every student. Interestingly they don't actually advertise the OS, although they will be using the go-oo.org version of OOo because of it's Googledocs/Zoho integration. There are a lot of other examples, you can talk to the people at the sharp end on the K12OSN maillist if you want. It is a significant market, just ask MS, they bleed just to keep a toehold.. Cheers GL -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant. INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Open Technologies) www.theingots.org
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
2010/10/3 andré : > > Targeting the school boards makes a lot of sense. Again this is something you can not generalize, different countries have different structures. In Germany it is not a school board who decides what software will be bought for a certain region or school. This is decided on state level for the various states of the federal republic. You have to go to some state office and compete with the reps of Microsoft. You do not talk to parents or teachers, it's some bureaucrats who decide this over here (with very few exceptions). Same with many other countries. This school board system as in the US is not a world wide system.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Targeting the school boards makes a lot of sense. Note that Openoffice targeted various gov't organisations in France, some of which ended up migrating to Mandriva as well. Maybe that could work with school boards as well. I'm tempted to try something like that with mine, in banlieue of Montréal. Just out of curiosity, what is your school board ? For the server, if Mandriva management were a little more reasonable, it would be good to partner with them. (I'd like to see something like RedHat/Fedora.) In any case, you can't go wrong with RedHat. André (andre999) Bonjour André: As an example, the official word from the Ontario Ministry of Education is that if users cannot afford the use of MSOffice, that we are allowed to promote the use of StarOffice. Here is the official link: http://www.osapac.org/db/view_software.php?id=310 Sun had made arrangements to provide support through their 1-800 ... telephone service (unofficially, they had also said that they would have supported OpenOffice user queries as well, although this policy may have changed after this policy had been posted on the net). There are over 2 million students being taught in Ontario where I teach. Quite a good market to target. You can find the statistics on registered school student numbers here: http://www42.statcan.ca/smr08/2007/smr08_088_2007-eng.htm If we were to commit to an "Education based" install (this could be done at the point of installation where you could tag the type of distro that you would want installed) with SOLID alternatives for the most common software packages used in educational institutions, then we could make a convincing case for the installation of Mageia desktops in schools. Most governmental agencies today are sensitive to ways of cutting down on expenses. The only problem that I would see in doing such a promotion is that this type of usage would require a server/client solution. This is where the choice of server partnership would become important. RehHat and Suse are well-known servers options in the business world. We could then partner up with them and make sure that Mageia/RedHat or Mageia/Suse solutions are rock solid. Unless we seek a partnership with MandrivaLinux server, but in North American markets, Mandriva is really not a force to contend with and is not really known. Marc
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Michael Scherer a écrit : Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 22:05 +0800, Kira a écrit : "A distribution for Newbie" is good, but I think what Graham said is better. Well, saying "a distribution for newbies" is not as good as it sound. If you market the distribution so people think "if you are a newbie, use this distro", people will think "he use this distribution so he is a newbie". This will drive knowledgeable peoples away to others distribution, because they will feel they will learn more by using another distro ( which is wrong ) and because others peoples will appear as more knowledgeable when they use a distro that is not aimed at newbies. In turn, this mean a diminution of the global expertise in the community. Less expert users to answer to support, less experts users to report bug, fix packages, create softwares or contribute, and to basically teach to new users how to be good community member resulting in less quality, and a less sustainable community. Apple does it correctly. They never say "we target newbie users". See http://www.apple.com//why-mac/ "better computer" "most advanced os" "award winning support" "latest technology" "software you love". Everything resolve around how they are good, not how beginner you can be. Or see http://www.apple.com/why-mac/better-os/ they say "it is easy", but they never say "it is easy and can be used by a newbie". They say "it is easy and you will learn how to use it fast", which is more positive. And so I think we should also try to avoid this pitfall, right from the start, if we want to have a thriving sustainable community. how about : "Mageia : Linux that just works" "Mageia : Easy, Powerful, and Secure" The danger is to identify Mageia too much with any particular market. Mandriva has attracted users and developpers by its ease of use. Mageia starts with this strength, which we should promote. That doesn't stop us from communicating the range of capabilities of Mageia, just that we should avoid too narrow a focus. - André (andre999)
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Kira a écrit : 在 Thu, 30 Sep 2010 22:18:08 +0800, Samuel Verschelde 寫道: Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 16:05:26, Kira a écrit : So, what's the difference Mageia had toward other distribution? "Simple to use yet powerful" : - newbie-friendly (yes ubuntu is on this market, but to me Mandriva does it better) - powerful - comprehensive (many packages available in many fields) Then nothing prevents from saying also, for example : "Mageia, ideal for music making", with news, screenshots, people sharing their experience, howtos... "Mageia, easy yet powerful on servers", ... You said nothing about my concern that Mandriva may be seen only as, say, a distribution for education. What about that ? All purpose means no one knows what the distro wants to do. Making a specific version for education/small business or whatever won't makes the distro seems only focus on one thing, but a proof of full feature OS. Don't agree. A special version will create the impression that it is all that Mageia can do. On the other hand, the possibility to select a special group of software (like "young family" or "education") to be installed from the DVD would be very useful. The point is: you have to emphasis something different, not something others also owns/easily achieved/already well-implemented/advertised. I don't agree with the way ubuntu flushing the whole board of different purpose but actually same thing strategy, but it does makes people knows what to choose to fit their need, which is important to makes people accept your product. We do have to find a place in the market slice, or no one would care about who you are. All-purpose is great, but not for people who is unfamiliar to our distro: It's too vague and not attractive since no one knows your strength. Strength, you ask ? Ease of use -- without sacrificing power and security. In my mind, Mandriva is even easier to use and maintain than Microsoft's version of windows, especially if you don't use their office suite. And certainly it is easier to use and maintain than most distros. That doesn't preclude talking about the various uses readily available, especially if there are special installation groups available on the DVD. - André (andre999)
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Marc Paré a écrit : Le 2010-10-01 05:56, Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : 2010/10/1 Marc Paré: Such applications don't have to be installed by default. They just have to be available on the installation DVD, with a selectable Educational group of applications, much like the Internet and Server groups available on existing Mandriva DVD's. It could even be called "Young Family". Note that in the past (at least about 10 years ago), RedHat CD's had many selectable installation groups, many of which overlapped. So using this approach, there could be groups called "Educational", "Young Family", and "Home Office", for example, all containing the go-openoffice office suite, among other applications. I believe that the current Mandriva DVD doesn't have any overlap between installation groups. - André (andre999) I like this approach. Same here. When I used SuSE Linux 4.4.1 they had the same approach. I even did several installations, each with a different set of applications, using the same /home. A good way to find out what you really want/need. Marc, what you wrote about kids being the future is common knowledge, I wonder that so many companies do not recognize that. Microsoft does, they are sponsoring school computer networks and internet access, thus creating their future client base. wobo Suse Linux really lost momentum when Novell didn't/has not recognized that its netware application days are at an end. If they pushed for a Suse educational netware application/distro, most school boards using the Novel netware apps would migrate this way. Fewer disruptions to their systems. School boards plan 5-10 years in advance for changes and it is extremely difficult for them to change in the middle of planned migration. There is a lot of money involved in this. Most board will pay Microsoft approx. $30-50/seat for use of MSWord -- so for example our board has over 10,000 computers. That is a huge cost just for the use of a Wordprocessor. I don't know the cost of the Novell install/contract but it would most likely approach this amount. If Mageia had educational partners on-board it would be a huge initial plus to the distro. School boards are, in a traditional sense, expected to spend money and not save/make money. We could, for example, offer to tailor certain aspects of the distro for our education partners. Note that the focus on educational institutions is for foster use of knowledge, so they would most likely be interested in areas of a distro that focussed on kids/adult learning needs. If Mageia did this well, then this could then lead to more educational partners coming on board. We would only need 2-5 educational partners to kick-start this approach. I would suggest to try for 1 educational partner per continent. It would then mushroom from there. Unfortunately, not having a Mageia server service may hurt us. But there is nothing to stop us from partnering or tooling up our community distro to work well with a server (in this case I would go for RedHat servers). There is no doubt that the next major expenses in the very near future for school boards is the change in netware applications. And they are still very confused. What they do know is that it will most likely be a linux solution. That is pretty well accepted. Marc Targeting the school boards makes a lot of sense. Note that Openoffice targeted various gov't organisations in France, some of which ended up migrating to Mandriva as well. Maybe that could work with school boards as well. I'm tempted to try something like that with mine, in banlieue of Montréal. Just out of curiosity, what is your school board ? For the server, if Mandriva management were a little more reasonable, it would be good to partner with them. (I'd like to see something like RedHat/Fedora.) In any case, you can't go wrong with RedHat. André (andre999)
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Graham Lauder a écrit : On Friday 01 Oct 2010 20:37:52 Wolfgang Bornath wrote: 2010/10/1 Graham Lauder: The families: if the kid wants a computer then either Dad buys a new one and the kids get the old, or they buy a new one but mom has no say, it's either Dad or the kids because the parents don't know anything about computers. Nonsense, It's interesting I know quite a few German families here in NZ, perhaps that's why they migrated, so the wife could make the majority of the purchasing decisions. ;) I'm afraid that your impressions fly in the face of all the real marketing intelligence. Dad or kids buy the computers because Mum has been left out of the demographic, typical given the number of women in the industry, but target that demographic and Mum becomes decision maker. You are partly right, but you miss an important point. It is probably true, in families in liberal western societies, that the mother decides most of the purchases, including what specific item is purchased. And it may well be that the mother decides whether or not to buy a computer. However, at least here in Canada (where women do indeed make most of the purchasing decisions), women have a strong tendancy to defer to a male opinion in deciding what computer to purchase, or operating system or software to use. This even occurs in professional settings, in contexts where a woman obviously has the greatest understanding of the company's needs. I've seen this numerous times in consulting, where I had to encourage their input in order to lead to a rational decision for the company, which was prepared to follow the opinion of someone who obviously did not understand the situation. However, I do agree that the mother will have an important influence in the type of software selected, even if she allows the man to make the final decision. Note that in my mind, using this frame of mind as the primary criteria in selecting the logo is misleading. What is needed is a logo that is distinctive, and attractive. And not out of place for the technology in question. These factors are culturally dependant as well. Note that most successful computer companies use blue/green colours. A notable exception being Ubuntu - which like Microsoft, uses their bottomless pockets to promote their distro. As well as having excellent documentation. So they succeed despite their ugly brown colours. Which may be considered attractive in certain markets, like South Africa. I don't know about marketing, I've just been living here for decades and been helping in the computer field for more than 15 years. I hold computer courses entry level, I give advice with computer purchases in families, etc. All my practical experience tells me what I've written here. OK then let me put it another way, you have taught IT for 15 years. Probably in the same geographic area. It's a pretty good guess that you have probably no more than three degrees of separation to maybe 90% of the people you interact with. 90+% of the people that you interact with speak the same native tongue as you, so already your view of the world is extremely limited. So lets talk hypothetically: If you have taught for 15 years and you had an average class size of say 20. 5 periods a day that's a hundred faces a day and you saw these people once a week and assuming a 40 week school year. That's 20,000 a year hang on not enough, OK you change completely 4 times a year, so that's 80.000 a year... wow that's a lot, over 15 years that's 1.2million people you could have hypothetically interacted with each for about ten hours total. However in marketing terms on a global scale that is a pinprick sample. Marketers get information for instance, just from rewards programmes that do that sort of sample in many countries in any one hour of any one day across many demographics, ages, income streams, locations and so on and what this tells us is that apart from some minor local differences, people in western democratic, first world countries behave in a very similar fashion. Obviously you don't understand how surveys work. It makes me wonder if you have ever done one. (btw, I have.) Surveys depend on a very limited sample, and extrapolate that to presume a global result. Like election polls, they can be -- and often are -- dead wrong. The experiences of wobo -- and similar experiences myself -- are just as valid. I'm not trying to say that you do not have good insights -- but rather that in is too easy to get carried away, and other's input is important. Every place is unique, but not as unique as we'd all like to believe, one thing that marketing tells you. A good example is Micky Ds, the same everywhere, with slight local variations. Nonsense (to use the same language as you do). You can't apply some junkfood chain success story to computers and software. LOL, in fact you can, at the end of the day it is a c
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Saturday 02 Oct 2010 20:59:11 Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > 2010/10/2 Frank Griffin : > > They do the work because they benefit by it (or their > > vision of the distro benefits by it). > > And as soon as they have the feeling that they're wasting their time > they turn to something else. > > wobo Or they go do something useful :) Cheers GL -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant. INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Open Technologies) www.theingots.org
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
2010/10/2 Frank Griffin : > They do the work because they benefit by it (or their > vision of the distro benefits by it). And as soon as they have the feeling that they're wasting their time they turn to something else. wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 8:06 PM, Frank Griffin wrote: > Graham Lauder wrote: >> >> Oh for Jiminys' sake, is there something in the water that causes you to be >> so >> literal. I SAID HYPOTHETICAL! What I was trying to do was demonstrate in a > > OK, I'll bite the bullet and be the one to tell you. Your style in > posting these comments has reeked of an assumed position of superiority, Oh, please ... Marketing http://www.dilbert.com/strips/comic/2010-10-01/ Experts http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2009-05-26/ Group Discussions http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2010-08-15/ -- Hoyt
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Graham Lauder wrote: > > Oh for Jiminys' sake, is there something in the water that causes you to be > so > literal. I SAID HYPOTHETICAL! What I was trying to do was demonstrate in a > lighthearted manner that NOONE, me included, can experience on their own, a > global market. That's why some of us pay huge amounts of money to the > market > research companies for this sort of info. > > This is now wasting my time > OK, I'll bite the bullet and be the one to tell you. Your style in posting these comments has reeked of an assumed position of superiority, so it should not be surprising to you that people have taken umbrage, and will not pass up any opportunity to point out inconsistencies in your posts. And you *are* inconsistent, as has been pointed out repeatedly. You tend to gloss over the inconsistencies with a message of "trust me, I know what I'm talking about, I'm an expert, and I should be in charge" while you disparage the opinions and life experiences of the other posters. You don't seem to grasp that a community distro is fueled by people who contribute for reasons meaningful to them, not you. In most companies not run by techies, marketing is given the ultimate power. Marketing determines what the customers want, Development decides how to produce it, and Sales sells it. As I've tried to point out to you repeatedly, this is not a company. This is a community-fueled distro doing things for reasons that motivate *them*, not you. There is no CEO or Board of Directors to slam down a mandate that marketing is in charge, and there are no shareholders to back that up because we have to show a profit. Unless all of the technical contributors on whom the success of this distro rely for some reason decide to sign on to your vision of a distro configured for and targeted for your chosen audience, it simply isn't going to happen. They do the work because they benefit by it (or their vision of the distro benefits by it).
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Saturday 02 Oct 2010 03:42:27 Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > 2010/10/1 Graham Lauder : > > OK then let me put it another way, you have taught IT for 15 years. > > Teaching IT was only the smallest part. I was involved in selling, > purchasing, advising - the whole area, not just that small marketing > section. And I talked to people all over the country, including > international events, not just one special geografic area like NZ. > Western Europe is a mix of many different areas, not just one. > So pls do not try to talk to me like you know it all. Oh for Jiminys' sake, is there something in the water that causes you to be so literal. I SAID HYPOTHETICAL! What I was trying to do was demonstrate in a lighthearted manner that NOONE, me included, can experience on their own, a global market. That's why some of us pay huge amounts of money to the market research companies for this sort of info. This is now wasting my time -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant. INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Open Technologies) www.theingots.org
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Hoyt Duff wrote: > I see that this thread has become a collection of > "No, THIS is what is meant by that word." > "Why is the list broken?" > "Allow me to re-state what I have re-stated many times" > "I like this feature, so that's what we should do." > "I am an expert, so this is what we should do." > "The problem is ." > "The fix is ." > > You left me out ! :-) "Why do we even need one ?"
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
> That is where this discussion should start. Until then, we are wasting > our time unless the entire point of all this is simply an exercise in > egocentrism. Should be us (the whole Community whit loong threads and pols) who determine which will be the target? Or should we leave so important decision to the future board? If the board will be integrated by members from every (or at least almost) part of the Community, and they will be picked by their merits (meritocracy), we should be calm. Anyway, no matter if the Community with a pol or the board decides. Someone (maybe a few, maybe a lot) will be unhappy with the chosen target market (and with many other decisions). So, my vote is to leave it to the first board. They will have a really heavy duty. Cheers! Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980)
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Fri, 2010-10-01 at 03:59 -0400, David W. Hodgins wrote: > On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 18:43:13 -0400, Michael Scherer wrote: > > > SO IMHO, this is what we should seek if we want to survive. Gathering > > contributions should be one of our goals. > > In my opinion, Magiea's primary market should be linux developers, > since they are the people who can contribute the most. It should > also target people who want to use the distribution used by the people > who are actually developing the tools. The biggest strength of Mandriva, and the reason I use(d) it, is/was that it targets both developers *and* people new to Linux. When I speak at conferences, people often ask me what operating environment I'm using, and when I tell them, they say, "oh, should I give it a try?" -- in most cases I can say, Yes. The Free Software Movement is about changing people's habits, getting them to use Free (libre) software. So targeting Windows, Mac and non-computer people is an important part of that. Best, Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
I see that this thread has become a collection of "No, THIS is what is meant by that word." "Why is the list broken?" "Allow me to re-state what I have re-stated many times" "I like this feature, so that's what we should do." "I am an expert, so this is what we should do." "The problem is ." "The fix is ." Not very productive. Difficult to follow. Mostly redundant. We can make guesses about Target Markets all we want, but it won't amount to much without some valid market research (which none of us has done for Mageia). Why is conjecture and speculation of value? Where are the facts and numbers to support a position? Where is any kind of analysis of a propose market? That is where this discussion should start. Until then, we are wasting our time unless the entire point of all this is simply an exercise in egocentrism. -- Hoyt
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
2010/10/1 Graham Lauder : > > OK then let me put it another way, you have taught IT for 15 years. Teaching IT was only the smallest part. I was involved in selling, purchasing, advising - the whole area, not just that small marketing section. And I talked to people all over the country, including international events, not just one special geografic area like NZ. Western Europe is a mix of many different areas, not just one. So pls do not try to talk to me like you know it all. > LOL, in fact you can, at the end of the day it is a consumer item. It is a > luxury good that only a small proportion of the worlds population can afford. > In capitalist consumer model societies the market has little variation apart > from local fashion. So for instance, like McDs, Ipods and Iphones are sold > the same way world wide and that is matched with other global brands. Wrong, Here it depends on which item it is who makes the decisions in a family. Over here Mom may decide in general whethere a purchase is made or not but concerning computers and software the kids or Dad decide what is bought. The wife just wants to use it. > As I pointed out above your experience is in fact limited, that's not a bad > thing, it means you can target those variations that the global brands ignore > in a local market. Same applies to you if you want to put it that way. Your sample is really small concerning German imigrants. Why do you think they emigrated from Germany? Because they were the typical Germans? Sounds like "I saw a German wearing a hat, all Germans wear hats." thing. I know some people from NZ but I would never judge all NZ by those few. > However our need is to be a global brand and so we target > demographics that we know exist every where. So for instance: Parents > everywhere, no matter what country or society, want the best for their Kids... > simple really. Simple but not related. It's related to clothing, food, whatever, not to the technical stuff. While there is not much trouble with parents when clothing or schooling is related, we do have an ongoing discussion in Germany about the problem that parents do not care what their children do with computers (ego shooters, facebook, etc.) because the kids know more about computers. Anyhow, I made my points. wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Graham Lauder wrote:
> On Saturday 02 Oct 2010 01:14:36 Frank Griffin wrote:
>
>
>>> And you miss my point entirely, there is NO trumpeting, that's
>>> advertising, there is no exclusion, rather inclusion of a missed market
>>>
>> Oh, come on. Trumpeting and advertising are essentially the same thing,
>> at last in the context of this discussion.
>>
> Um, that what I said: That the trumpeting IS advertising...
Apologies for missing your meaning, but that phrase ("there is NO
trumpeting, that's advertising") can be read two different ways
depending upon what you take "that's" to be modifying, i.e. trumpeting
or what you're advocating.
>
> You're reading a hell of a lot more in there than I put. You seem to be
> talking at cross purposes. When I say inclusion I mean inclusion of another
> market that hasn't been catered to before. You're talking about packages,
> I'm talking about people.
>
No, your original post talked about packages, to quote:
So for instance as well as the standard software, educational programmes would
be installed by default, be NetSafe (Dans Guardian), have OOo4Kids installed
as well as a full office suite, Tuxtype, TuxPaint and so on.
Documentation added to show parents how to set up accounts for the kids and
how to make it Net safe.
That is a clear recommendation to configure the distro for that target
audience. Installing a lot of kid-friendly packages implies they have
to be in the ISOs, which means that some other packages won't be.
>
> Now I'm convinced we're not talking about the same thing.
>
> You seem to think we are wanting to embark on some global advertising campaign
>
> And all I want is to decide what colour pallet our logo and webpage should
> use. By figuring out what a primary target market is we can then figure out
> the colours that will suit that demographic. That's it Simple!
>
As I pointed out above, you advocated targeting the distribution
*itself* to a niche market. I really have no interest in what colors
the website uses; my replies were prompted because I have lots of
interest in what the distro contains.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Saturday 02 Oct 2010 01:14:36 Frank Griffin wrote: > I'm not sure what's going on with this ML. I responded to a post by > Graham Lauder, and it ended up going to him but not the ML. He then > responded to me privately, and we both agreed to repost to the ML. > According to the gmane archives, he did, but I never received his > repost, so I can't place my reply in the correct branch of the thread. > I'll post it here, just so that it's *somewhere* in the thread... > > Graham Lauder wrote: > > 42 for me, I started with NCR in August of 1968 and went on to be MD of > > my own company for eighteen years, these days retired on my little > > country estate, wonderful lifestyle, bloody awful internet connection. > > :) > > Congrats, we're both old farts :-) > > > And this is not economics this is Marketing 101 > > No, sorry, it's not marketing when you frame it as you did: > > We do this because at the end of the day infrastructure costs, marketing > > > > > costs, a whole pile of things cost. One day some patch or application, > > > which is essential but completely non-sexy could require us to pay a > > > dev on contract and so on and so forth. The context of the above was talking about how we do have a sort of a commercial model and I probably shouldn't have mentioned it because it's pushed things off the focus of this process, but I happened to be thinking about it at the time, I'm a chaotic thinker so sue me.. > > That's economics, pure and simple. Marketing is trying to make > something attractive to potential purchasers. A distro doesn't have any > of those. No, you're talking about advertising completely different, sure marketing makes decisions that will affect advertising, but at this point we don't have any desire or need to do any advertising, that's a long way off. > > >> You make my point exactly. The infrastructure costs are fixed, and the > >> donor pool will be larger if the user base is larger. > >> > >> > >> [] If MDV had trumpeted itself as a KDE-only Family (or Education, > >> or whatever) distro, and reinforced that by excluding packages and > >> infrastructure support for other stuff, I wouldn't have given a dime. > > > > And you miss my point entirely, there is NO trumpeting, that's > > advertising, there is no exclusion, rather inclusion of a missed market > > Oh, come on. Trumpeting and advertising are essentially the same thing, > at last in the context of this discussion. Um, that what I said: That the trumpeting IS advertising... we're not advertising, we are trying to figure out branding, that means trying to figure our target markets so that we can make our branding attractive in that market. that's marketing, not advertising > And what you're advocating > is certainly exclusion; you're saying that we should design and promote > the distro as a distro in order to capture the > mindset of a specific market share, to the implicit exclusion of other > aims if resource limitations encroach. You're reading a hell of a lot more in there than I put. You seem to be talking at cross purposes. When I say inclusion I mean inclusion of another market that hasn't been catered to before. You're talking about packages, I'm talking about people. [] > > > I am wondering why you are trying to convince me, this is not my > > decision, I am merely an idea generator. I give reasons as to why I > > believe that this target market is a good one and I foster debate. My > > goal is simply to establish criteria for branding, nothing else right > > now. > > I'm not sure how seriously to take this. You post an opinion about > channeling the distro to a specific audience, and when I respond, you > wonder why I'm trying to convince *you* ? Frankly, I doubt if I *could* > convince you, and it was never my intention to try. I know an > enthusiast when I read one. I'm simply participating in the debate you > initiated and want to foster. Which includes the issue of whether we > need branding at the distro level or not. > > My opinion is that we do not. Our infrastructure costs will be > relatively fixed, and will be dwarfed by the cost of developer and other > contributor time it will take to maintain Mageia. The community > resources we will discourage by advertising ourselves as a niche distro > will cost us much more than the infrastructure budget. So, while I > would concede that your branding argument would make sense if we were > embarking on a commercial venture, I'd have to say that it is pretty low > on the priority list for a community distro. Now I'm convinced we're not talking about the same thing. You seem to think we are wanting to embark on some global advertising campaign And all I want is to decide what colour pallet our logo and webpage should use. By figuring out what a primary target market is we can then figure out the colours that will suit that demographic. That's it Simple! -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org M
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 00:43, Michael Scherer wrote: > > Yup, the distro that make you become expert, something like that. > > One thing we must not forget is that we need people that contribute if > we want to survive. A commercial distribution requires money ( and > therefore users that can bring money , either directly, or either > indirectly ( service, ads, etc )) to survive. We are not a commercial > distribution, so the pressure is lower with regard to money. But we > still to have people that develop it, and if we cannot pay people for > that directly ( since we are not a company, even if maybe some companies > will help us later ), we need to directly use contributions as a way to > ensure our own sustainability. > > SO IMHO, this is what we should seek if we want to survive. Gathering > contributions should be one of our goals. > > The second point is that we are here because we want community > empowerment. So community also must be a strong point, especially since > it will appeal to people that would allow the community to survive. > > So again, I think that empowerment should be another one of the goals. > > Now, we must ask ourself "what is pushing people to contribute". > There is various papers, like this one > > http://firstmonday.org/htbin/cgiwrap/bin/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/1113/1033 > > ( I let the analysis as a exercise for the moment ). > > And we need to find a way to combine this with others goals. > > While a traditional motivation in free software is to solve our own > problem ( and that's also part of community empowerment ), this is not > enough. We also need to think to more than us. And I think that's the > complex part. > > We have 2 choices. Either we try to find a market where no one went, or > a market where someone went, and try to be better. Or maybe both. > > -- > Michael Scherer > > I agree. One way towards that goal is something I thought about since some years : lessen the divide between the GUI and CLI approach to computers, and OS's in particular. And thus between the 'user' and the 'geek' cultures (even if geeks are users too). In particular : that the GUI tools, for example the GUI draktools, provide a link (button) to a short explanation of how they do what they do. For example : what are the configuration files that are changed, and how. It could be seen as an extension of what is possible with an icon of the Panel : a right-click gets you to see what it does : the command is visible. When I was teaching an introduction to OS's, I used Mandr/ake/iva this way for people mainly familiar with Windows : the GUI functions are similar, even if different, but you can have a 'readable text' access to what really happens. At first I just told them which configuration files where concerned. Later I wrote some simple perl scripts using fileschanged ( http://fileschanged.sourceforge.net/) to let them find it themselves. But there were many limitations : for instance KDE configurations are not writen to file directly. Anyway it would be much more helpful if it is incorporated in the GUI tool itself (eventually as an option). It would encourage progressive exploration of the underlying workings. For anybody, but evidently exploratory behavior is more prevalent in younger people. Viewed with some optimism, if this approach is extended, it could lead to an experience similar to that of people who came to programming through contact with the early 8 bit microcomputers. (Many people lament the disapearence of that path of access). >From the 'magic' point of view it would point to : Magea : the School of Magic -- Frederic
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
I'm not sure what's going on with this ML. I responded to a post by Graham Lauder, and it ended up going to him but not the ML. He then responded to me privately, and we both agreed to repost to the ML. According to the gmane archives, he did, but I never received his repost, so I can't place my reply in the correct branch of the thread. I'll post it here, just so that it's *somewhere* in the thread... Graham Lauder wrote: > 42 for me, I started with NCR in August of 1968 and went on to be MD of my > own > company for eighteen years, these days retired on my little country estate, > wonderful lifestyle, bloody awful internet connection. :) > Congrats, we're both old farts :-) > And this is not economics this is Marketing 101 > No, sorry, it's not marketing when you frame it as you did: > We do this because at the end of the day infrastructure costs, marketing > > costs, a whole pile of things cost. One day some patch or application, > > which > > is essential but completely non-sexy could require us to pay a dev on > > contract > > and so on and so forth. That's economics, pure and simple. Marketing is trying to make something attractive to potential purchasers. A distro doesn't have any of those. > >> You make my point exactly. The infrastructure costs are fixed, and the >> donor pool will be larger if the user base is larger. >> > >> [] If MDV had trumpeted itself as a KDE-only Family (or Education, >> or whatever) distro, and reinforced that by excluding packages and >> infrastructure support for other stuff, I wouldn't have given a dime. >> > And you miss my point entirely, there is NO trumpeting, that's advertising, > there is no exclusion, rather inclusion of a missed market > Oh, come on. Trumpeting and advertising are essentially the same thing, at last in the context of this discussion. And what you're advocating is certainly exclusion; you're saying that we should design and promote the distro as a distro in order to capture the mindset of a specific market share, to the implicit exclusion of other aims if resource limitations encroach. > I'm a marketing guy not a hacker and I haven't been part of the marketing of > OBS, but I seem to remember that OBS packages for a whole heap of distros > including even deb based ones. However I may be wrong talk to Jos Poortvliet > or Andreas Jaeger on the opensuse lists > OK, then maybe we need to look at piggybacking on OBS. The idea I floated was an idea, with a suggestion of an implementation. If there's a better implementation, that's fine; we can use it. >> "Focus" is all about excluding "non-essential" activities so that a >> company can focus its limited resources on the desires of a specific >> market. >> > Focus in this case is about establishing branding, nothing else > You're entitled to your definition, as I am mine. In common parlance (as well as in this industry) "focus" (as used by non-developers) very definitely implied "concentrate on this and not that". That not branding; it's triage and prioritization. > I am wondering why you are trying to convince me, this is not my decision, I > am merely an idea generator. I give reasons as to why I believe that this > target market is a good one and I foster debate. My goal is simply to > establish criteria for branding, nothing else right now. > I'm not sure how seriously to take this. You post an opinion about channeling the distro to a specific audience, and when I respond, you wonder why I'm trying to convince *you* ? Frankly, I doubt if I *could* convince you, and it was never my intention to try. I know an enthusiast when I read one. I'm simply participating in the debate you initiated and want to foster. Which includes the issue of whether we need branding at the distro level or not. My opinion is that we do not. Our infrastructure costs will be relatively fixed, and will be dwarfed by the cost of developer and other contributor time it will take to maintain Mageia. The community resources we will discourage by advertising ourselves as a niche distro will cost us much more than the infrastructure budget. So, while I would concede that your branding argument would make sense if we were embarking on a commercial venture, I'd have to say that it is pretty low on the priority list for a community distro.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Friday 01 Oct 2010 20:49:11 Oliver Burger wrote: > Wolfgang Bornath schrieb am 2010-10-01 > > > 2010/10/1 Graham Lauder : > > >> The families: if the kid wants a computer then either Dad buys a new > > >> one and the kids get the old, or they buy a new one but mom has no > > >> say, it's either Dad or the kids because the parents don't know > > >> anything about computers. > > > > > > Nonsense, It's interesting I know quite a few German families here in > > > NZ, > > I think it's quite strange to tell someone he's talking nonsense, when his > experience is based on linving in a country for decades and your own by > knowing some people who migrated from there... I was just pointing out that his small sample can be negated by my small sample. If you're going to the market with a global brand then limited local experience doesn't tell us a lot but global research does tell us a hell of a lot. > > > I don't know about marketing, I've just been living here for decades > > and been helping in the computer field for more than 15 years. I hold > > computer courses entry level, I give advice with computer purchases in > > families, etc. All my practical experience tells me what I've written > > here. > > I have to fully agree with Wolfgang. The mother-centrated family model may > be true in the amer-austra-new-zealandian world (at least the soap operas > on TV tell this) but I'm quite sure that in more conservative europe the > story is quite different. Conservative Europe is not the market I'm talking about, I'm talking about young professional parents world wide > And: kids want their 3D-splash-them-all-games. Kids won't switch to Linux > as long as the games industry doesn't change. There are plenty of games on linux, but the point is that the computer isn't bought by the Kids it's bought *for* them. Games come later and I show people the games that are on the OpenSUSE repos and they're after them and those are only the gratis ones. > Moms usually will work with what they know, every change is a problem, > since it's different from what they are used to and they have to learn > anew. Excuse me if I sound a little frustrated here but you could make that argument for any demographic, that's what marketing is about, leading people to change. If people never changed then you wouldn't need marketing, we would all the use the same thing forever. Mageia would still be Mandriva, Connectiva and Mandrake would be separate, there would be no need for desktop linux. and come to think of it I wouldn't have a job given that change management is often part of my job description. :) Young families are in a demographic that embraces change if they can see that there is value in it for them or their family, they do it every day in myriad ways. > > Oliver Cheers GL -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant. INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Open Technologies) www.theingots.org
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Le 2010-10-01 05:56, Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : 2010/10/1 Marc Paré: Such applications don't have to be installed by default. They just have to be available on the installation DVD, with a selectable Educational group of applications, much like the Internet and Server groups available on existing Mandriva DVD's. It could even be called "Young Family". Note that in the past (at least about 10 years ago), RedHat CD's had many selectable installation groups, many of which overlapped. So using this approach, there could be groups called "Educational", "Young Family", and "Home Office", for example, all containing the go-openoffice office suite, among other applications. I believe that the current Mandriva DVD doesn't have any overlap between installation groups. - André (andre999) I like this approach. Same here. When I used SuSE Linux 4.4.1 they had the same approach. I even did several installations, each with a different set of applications, using the same /home. A good way to find out what you really want/need. Marc, what you wrote about kids being the future is common knowledge, I wonder that so many companies do not recognize that. Microsoft does, they are sponsoring school computer networks and internet access, thus creating their future client base. wobo Suse Linux really lost momentum when Novell didn't/has not recognized that its netware application days are at an end. If they pushed for a Suse educational netware application/distro, most school boards using the Novel netware apps would migrate this way. Fewer disruptions to their systems. School boards plan 5-10 years in advance for changes and it is extremely difficult for them to change in the middle of planned migration. There is a lot of money involved in this. Most board will pay Microsoft approx. $30-50/seat for use of MSWord -- so for example our board has over 10,000 computers. That is a huge cost just for the use of a Wordprocessor. I don't know the cost of the Novell install/contract but it would most likely approach this amount. If Mageia had educational partners on-board it would be a huge initial plus to the distro. School boards are, in a traditional sense, expected to spend money and not save/make money. We could, for example, offer to tailor certain aspects of the distro for our education partners. Note that the focus on educational institutions is for foster use of knowledge, so they would most likely be interested in areas of a distro that focussed on kids/adult learning needs. If Mageia did this well, then this could then lead to more educational partners coming on board. We would only need 2-5 educational partners to kick-start this approach. I would suggest to try for 1 educational partner per continent. It would then mushroom from there. Unfortunately, not having a Mageia server service may hurt us. But there is nothing to stop us from partnering or tooling up our community distro to work well with a server (in this case I would go for RedHat servers). There is no doubt that the next major expenses in the very near future for school boards is the change in netware applications. And they are still very confused. What they do know is that it will most likely be a linux solution. That is pretty well accepted. Marc
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Friday 01 Oct 2010 20:37:52 Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > 2010/10/1 Graham Lauder : > >> The families: if the kid wants a computer then either Dad buys a new > >> one and the kids get the old, or they buy a new one but mom has no > >> say, it's either Dad or the kids because the parents don't know > >> anything about computers. > > > > Nonsense, It's interesting I know quite a few German families here in NZ, > > perhaps that's why they migrated, so the wife could make the majority of > > the purchasing decisions. ;) I'm afraid that your impressions fly in > > the face of all the real marketing intelligence. Dad or kids buy the > > computers because Mum has been left out of the demographic, typical > > given the number of women in the industry, but target that demographic > > and Mum becomes decision maker. > > I don't know about marketing, I've just been living here for decades > and been helping in the computer field for more than 15 years. I hold > computer courses entry level, I give advice with computer purchases in > families, etc. All my practical experience tells me what I've written > here. OK then let me put it another way, you have taught IT for 15 years. Probably in the same geographic area. It's a pretty good guess that you have probably no more than three degrees of separation to maybe 90% of the people you interact with. 90+% of the people that you interact with speak the same native tongue as you, so already your view of the world is extremely limited. So lets talk hypothetically: If you have taught for 15 years and you had an average class size of say 20. 5 periods a day that's a hundred faces a day and you saw these people once a week and assuming a 40 week school year. That's 20,000 a year hang on not enough, OK you change completely 4 times a year, so that's 80.000 a year... wow that's a lot, over 15 years that's 1.2million people you could have hypothetically interacted with each for about ten hours total. However in marketing terms on a global scale that is a pinprick sample. Marketers get information for instance, just from rewards programmes that do that sort of sample in many countries in any one hour of any one day across many demographics, ages, income streams, locations and so on and what this tells us is that apart from some minor local differences, people in western democratic, first world countries behave in a very similar fashion. > > > Every place is unique, but not as unique as we'd all like to believe, one > > thing that marketing tells you. A good example is Micky Ds, the same > > everywhere, with slight local variations. > > Nonsense (to use the same language as you do). You can't apply some > junkfood chain success story to computers and software. LOL, in fact you can, at the end of the day it is a consumer item. It is a luxury good that only a small proportion of the worlds population can afford. In capitalist consumer model societies the market has little variation apart from local fashion. So for instance, like McDs, Ipods and Iphones are sold the same way world wide and that is matched with other global brands. > > As I said, I disagree with your points not because I am another > marketing guy but because of experience. > > wobo As I pointed out above your experience is in fact limited, that's not a bad thing, it means you can target those variations that the global brands ignore in a local market. However our need is to be a global brand and so we target demographics that we know exist every where. So for instance: Parents everywhere, no matter what country or society, want the best for their Kids... simple really. Cheers GL -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant. INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Open Technologies) www.theingots.org
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
2010/10/1 Marc Paré : >> Such applications don't have to be installed by default. They just have >> to be available on the installation DVD, with a selectable Educational >> group of applications, much like the Internet and Server groups >> available on existing Mandriva DVD's. It could even be called "Young >> Family". >> >> Note that in the past (at least about 10 years ago), RedHat CD's had >> many selectable installation groups, many of which overlapped. So using >> this approach, there could be groups called "Educational", "Young >> Family", and "Home Office", for example, all containing the >> go-openoffice office suite, among other applications. >> I believe that the current Mandriva DVD doesn't have any overlap between >> installation groups. >> > >> - André (andre999) >> > > I like this approach. Same here. When I used SuSE Linux 4.4.1 they had the same approach. I even did several installations, each with a different set of applications, using the same /home. A good way to find out what you really want/need. Marc, what you wrote about kids being the future is common knowledge, I wonder that so many companies do not recognize that. Microsoft does, they are sponsoring school computer networks and internet access, thus creating their future client base. wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Such applications don't have to be installed by default. They just have to be available on the installation DVD, with a selectable Educational group of applications, much like the Internet and Server groups available on existing Mandriva DVD's. It could even be called "Young Family". Note that in the past (at least about 10 years ago), RedHat CD's had many selectable installation groups, many of which overlapped. So using this approach, there could be groups called "Educational", "Young Family", and "Home Office", for example, all containing the go-openoffice office suite, among other applications. I believe that the current Mandriva DVD doesn't have any overlap between installation groups. - André (andre999) I like this approach. When I have helped people with their install of Mandriva, once we get to the choice of applications, I usually tell them to choose the 3rd choice and go to the package selection. If we could add a specific choice of "Education Workstation" then this would be enough to satisfy most users installing for the first time. We could then focus on education specific softs in this category. (I have noticed, BTW, that most, if not all, users will ask to include the "Game Workstation" in their installation.) There should, in fact, be an "Education" focussed marketing group inside the larger Mageia marketing group. It has long been known that if you can market to the younger kids, they will most likely continue with what they were used to use later on in life. Apple has followed this principle quite well, music companies follow this principle quite well (Yamaha Corp.) for schools. This gives them a marketing edge and a good slice of the consumer end of things. Imagine if Mageia could corner 1-2% of consumer acceptance of its product. That would be quite a feat in itself. In fact, I use this principle at work where I used years ago Mandriva2007 for a lab. I was told that linux was not welcomed in our school board. So I created a lab with Mandriva 2007 disguised as Windows machines (themes, icons, etc). Students and staff used the "extra lab" and even the "special education" teachers used it to teach students with learning disabilities. No one ever complained of the lab and at year end I told the staff and students that it was a linux lab. I got more requests that year to install linux on home boxes that I could imagine. Since then, linux has been part of my school's student history, with my helping install home installations for free (help) and doing remote maintenance/service if they need help. I have approx. 150 students using OpenOffice and roughly 40-50 students using Mandriva at home. Marc
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Friday 01 October 2010, David W. Hodgins wrote: > > In my opinion, Magiea's primary market should be linux developers, Yes and no. I am a developer, using Mandriva all these years and want Mageia also to be a _developer friendly_ distribution. But not a /developer oriented/ like slackware or gentoo. For that target I would make a wishlist: - Must be easy to keep in "production". That is, allow us to work every day without major feature breakages. We want to develop our package, not be fixing the Linux installation all of our time. - Have all latest libs and packages, *available*. Not force us to use them by default, but have recent things at the repos, so that we can pick them to develop against. - Have minimal obtrusion from the desktop, yet be powerful. Think of the kde3,4 environment. We like the fact that we have a very rich text editor, many commands and utilities. But, all these shouldn't take more than 5% of our cpu, not take much memory. Because, our main work is *NOT* to search with nepomuk, or waste our resources on plasmoids. Our work is to make the package we are developing to compile, run, test etc. - Be easy to report bugs, work with the main team. I think Mandriva already was a good choice for the above wishlist. Keep that, please. > I also think things like 3d, or "Desktop Effects" should be disabled by > default, as things like animating a window minimizing make the system > seem slow, even with good hardware. Defaults is not an issue. A developer should be experienced enough to switch some things off and customize his system. As long as there *is* a switch for that (and not the "you must use GL animations for your menu rendering" mentality). -- Say NO to spam and viruses. Stop using Microsoft Windows!
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Thu, 30 Sep 2010 18:43:13 -0400, Michael Scherer wrote: SO IMHO, this is what we should seek if we want to survive. Gathering contributions should be one of our goals. In my opinion, Magiea's primary market should be linux developers, since they are the people who can contribute the most. It should also target people who want to use the distribution used by the people who are actually developing the tools. Magiea is the distribution targeting the linux community itself. Easy to use for all users, especially developers. Magiea should not be targeting windows or mac users. It should be the best linux distribution for linux developers, and users. Things like the welcome application are good, but the target market shouldn't be new linux users. I also think things like 3d, or "Desktop Effects" should be disabled by default, as things like animating a window minimizing make the system seem slow, even with good hardware. Regards, Dave Hodgins
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Wolfgang Bornath schrieb am 2010-10-01 > 2010/10/1 Graham Lauder : > >> The families: if the kid wants a computer then either Dad buys a new > >> one and the kids get the old, or they buy a new one but mom has no > >> say, it's either Dad or the kids because the parents don't know > >> anything about computers. > > > > Nonsense, It's interesting I know quite a few German families here in NZ, I think it's quite strange to tell someone he's talking nonsense, when his experience is based on linving in a country for decades and your own by knowing some people who migrated from there... > > I don't know about marketing, I've just been living here for decades > and been helping in the computer field for more than 15 years. I hold > computer courses entry level, I give advice with computer purchases in > families, etc. All my practical experience tells me what I've written > here. I have to fully agree with Wolfgang. The mother-centrated family model may be true in the amer-austra-new-zealandian world (at least the soap operas on TV tell this) but I'm quite sure that in more conservative europe the story is quite different. And: kids want their 3D-splash-them-all-games. Kids won't switch to Linux as long as the games industry doesn't change. Moms usually will work with what they know, every change is a problem, since it's different from what they are used to and they have to learn anew. Oliver
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
2010/10/1 Graham Lauder : >> >> The families: if the kid wants a computer then either Dad buys a new >> one and the kids get the old, or they buy a new one but mom has no >> say, it's either Dad or the kids because the parents don't know >> anything about computers. > > Nonsense, It's interesting I know quite a few German families here in NZ, > perhaps that's why they migrated, so the wife could make the majority of the > purchasing decisions. ;) I'm afraid that your impressions fly in the face of > all the real marketing intelligence. Dad or kids buy the computers because Mum > has been left out of the demographic, typical given the number of women in the > industry, but target that demographic and Mum becomes decision maker. I don't know about marketing, I've just been living here for decades and been helping in the computer field for more than 15 years. I hold computer courses entry level, I give advice with computer purchases in families, etc. All my practical experience tells me what I've written here. > Every place is unique, but not as unique as we'd all like to believe, one > thing that marketing tells you. A good example is Micky Ds, the same > everywhere, with slight local variations. Nonsense (to use the same language as you do). You can't apply some junkfood chain success story to computers and software. As I said, I disagree with your points not because I am another marketing guy but because of experience. wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Graham Lauder a écrit : On Friday 01 Oct 2010 02:04:26 Marc Paré wrote: Le 2010-09-30 07:21, Graham Lauder a écrit : A group of the marketing and communication peoples got together to get our heads around Vision and Mission Statement. Everyone brainstormed what they saw as the core values of Mageia to give a direction that the Projects Vision and mission statement could head. The reasoning behind this is it points a figurative arrow at our primary target market and thus gives us a guide toward where our branding should be aimed. A mistake that is often made is branding from an internal aesthetic when in fact branding should be more aimed externally to attract a new demographic. If the gods are in alignment then ideally it should point toward our principle point of difference and again this influences our branding choices in terms of Colour Pallet Logo and so forth. The "feel" to me that came from the brainstorming was that Mageia could be marketed as the "Family Distro". This being a principle point of difference when a user makes a decision as to what operating system to run. Our principle competitor, MS competes against the Linux universe as a whole but other distros compete for the MS user base aimed at particular Demographics. For instance: OpenSUSE aims at the "Power User" Market Ubuntu aims at the young individual end of the market CentOS at Community enterprise and Not For Profits Fedora at the Computing Professional Mageia could therefore aim at the Young Married professional market, being the Distro that could be installed on the home computer and geared so that the whole family could use it. This seems to be an excellent target market. The relative ease-of-use of Mandriva should have been targeted here. In the past, without realising it, I've targeted such users myself for Mandriva. And Mageia has the advantage of not being tied to a commercial market. So for instance as well as the standard software, educational programmes would be installed by default, be NetSafe (Dans Guardian), have OOo4Kids installed as well as a full office suite, Tuxtype, TuxPaint and so on. Such applications don't have to be installed by default. They just have to be available on the installation DVD, with a selectable Educational group of applications, much like the Internet and Server groups available on existing Mandriva DVD's. It could even be called "Young Family". Note that in the past (at least about 10 years ago), RedHat CD's had many selectable installation groups, many of which overlapped. So using this approach, there could be groups called "Educational", "Young Family", and "Home Office", for example, all containing the go-openoffice office suite, among other applications. I believe that the current Mandriva DVD doesn't have any overlap between installation groups. Documentation added to show parents how to set up accounts for the kids and how to make it Net safe. I think that this is an untapped market right now and something that the project could leverage into a marketing campaign and guide us in terms of branding. Comments? I think you are right on the mark. Cheers GL I think that if you target the software packages that are compatible with Educational software advocated by educational organizations, we could make quite large inroads in the adaptability of Mageia.For example, when marketing the OS, emphasis on the distro that can carry your kids through their educational paths with such packages as OpenOffice (soon to be LibreOffice -- make sure the MSWorks plug-in is also included) compatible with MSOffice; GIMP similar to Photoshop and some plugins are compatible; Freemind mindmapping; etc. If Mageia concentrated on making these software packages work solidly then you could have a good run at competing with other linux distros in the educational field. Indeed, that's why I suggest OOo4Kids. The go-oo.org version is pretty much essential right now because of it's GoogleDocs/Zoho integration. Schools are using the cloud as an educational tool more and more. BTW, in Canada, many school boards still use the Novel Netware setups and they are just now in the midst of planning out its replacement. My school board for example will have to replace close to 10,000 units if they were to move to a Linux setup. I sat in on a meeting about 5 years ago to hear out a RehHat re-seller's pitch. Most school boards are almost at the break point and will be actively looking for new networking/desktop solutions. Mageia to the rescue :) Common all over the world and if the school can see that the software used at school is as friendly on the home computer... The big plus : no extra cost for exactly what is used at school. So, compatibility with educational software. The distro should also be an easy install for everyone and GUI run. If we are going to make it and contend with other distros, the majority of users wa
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Thu, 30 Sep 2010, Michael Scherer wrote: Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 22:05 +0800, Kira a écrit : "A distribution for Newbie" is good, but I think what Graham said is better. Well, saying "a distribution for newbies" is not as good as it sound. If you market the distribution so people think "if you are a newbie, use this distro", people will think "he use this distribution so he is a newbie". This will drive knowledgeable peoples away to others distribution, because they will feel they will learn more by using another distro ( which is wrong ) and because others peoples will appear as more knowledgeable when they use a distro that is not aimed at newbies. I think Mageia should be marketed/presented on the basis of its tools and hardware recognition. It lends itself to easy configuration and administration with the Mageia Control Center and its many excellent individual tools, like the partitioner, so is newbie friendly, but is also power user and system controller friendly, and person who wants to learn computers friendly, if you want to use cli. We should talk about our assets and explain what individuals/groups those assets might be relevant to. Mandriva's/Mageia's unique set of tools is what differentiate's it/them from other distros. Dale Huckeby
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Friday 01 Oct 2010 14:50:52 Frank Griffin wrote: > Graham Lauder wrote: > > In a phrase: Horse Doo doo > > [] > > > Mageia has a donation system > > [] > > > We do this because at the end of the day infrastructure costs, marketing > > costs, a whole pile of things cost. One day some patch or application, > > which is essential but completely non-sexy could require us to pay a dev > > on contract and so on and so forth. > > > > Now our problem is that in these days of "everything free off the > > Internet" getting Koha is problematic. However there is, obviously, a > > proportion of the market that is willing to give Koha. That proportion > > in a market is generally but arguably fixed, so the bigger the market > > the greater the Koha. Our advantage is that our "costs" vary little > > with the size of the market. > > I'm not exactly ignorant of Economics 101, having been in this business > (on the commercial side) for about 35 years. :-) 42 for me, I started with NCR in August of 1968 and eventually went on to be MD of my own company for eighteen years, these days retired on my little country estate, wonderful lifestyle, bloody awful internet connection. :) And this is not economics this is Marketing 101 > > You make my point exactly. The infrastructure costs are fixed, and the > donor pool will be larger if the user base is larger. > [] If MDV had trumpeted itself as a KDE-only Family (or Education, > or whatever) distro, and reinforced that by excluding packages and > infrastructure support for other stuff, I wouldn't have given a dime. And you miss my point entirely, there is NO trumpeting, that's advertising, there is no exclusion, rather inclusion of a missed market > > > There is already a way of doing that, it's called OBS (OpenSUSE Build > > service, it's free software, install it or in fact use it) and with that > > and SUSE Studio, OpenSUSE have that corner of the market targeted and > > nailed. > > Except that they don't have the tools that we have. The software > packages are common to every distro. The tools aren't. The key to > whether someone would use OBS or ours (or even OBS ported to use our > packages) is the quality of the packages (currency, stability) and the > quality of the distro tools. I'm a marketing guy not a hacker and I haven't been part of the marketing of OBS, but I seem to remember that OBS packages for a whole heap of distros including even deb based ones. However I may be wrong talk to Jos Poortvliet or Andreas Jaeger on the opensuse lists > > "Focus" is all about excluding "non-essential" activities so that a > company can focus its limited resources on the desires of a specific > market. Focus in this case is about establishing branding, nothing else [] > Cheers, > Frank Cheers GL -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant. INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Open Technologies) www.theingots.org ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Graham Lauder wrote: > In a phrase: Horse Doo doo [] > Mageia has a donation system > [] > We do this because at the end of the day infrastructure costs, marketing > costs, a whole pile of things cost. One day some patch or application, which > is essential but completely non-sexy could require us to pay a dev on > contract > and so on and so forth. > > Now our problem is that in these days of "everything free off the Internet" > getting Koha is problematic. However there is, obviously, a proportion of the > market that is willing to give Koha. That proportion in a market is > generally > but arguably fixed, so the bigger the market the greater the Koha. Our > advantage is that our "costs" vary little with the size of the market. > I'm not exactly ignorant of Economics 101, having been in this business (on the commercial side) for about 35 years. :-) You make my point exactly. The infrastructure costs are fixed, and the donor pool will be larger if the user base is larger. You can either choose to entice people to donate because of their perception of the slant (market vision) of the distro, or you can entice people to donate because they find the distro useful to them personally (otherwise known as pseudo-shareware). If you narrow the audience using the former approach, you're excluding potential contributors. I was a member of Mandriva Club for years because I thought Mandriva worth supporting; I never bought a PowerPack or a Box Set because I never needed that stuff. If MDV had trumpeted itself as a KDE-only Family (or Education, or whatever) distro, and reinforced that by excluding packages and infrastructure support for other stuff, I wouldn't have given a dime. > There is already a way of doing that, it's called OBS (OpenSUSE Build > service, > it's free software, install it or in fact use it) and with that and SUSE > Studio, OpenSUSE have that corner of the market targeted and nailed. > Except that they don't have the tools that we have. The software packages are common to every distro. The tools aren't. The key to whether someone would use OBS or ours (or even OBS ported to use our packages) is the quality of the packages (currency, stability) and the quality of the distro tools. "Focus" is all about excluding "non-essential" activities so that a company can focus its limited resources on the desires of a specific market. A community distro is about servicing the largest possible community and providing a base from which others (including ourselves) can specialize. The assumption is that the community will supply the manpower needed to achieve the objectives they want achieved, and if you think that the potential developer contributor pool gives a rat's whatever about targeted "image" distros that don't satisfy their specific needs, then you don't know developers. And I would seriously question the assumption that 20-something families looking for commodity computing are going to become a significant donor base; that might happen if they were required to pay for it up front, and if their desire to buy it was great enough, but if they can get it and install it for free, they're outta there after that. Your contributions are going to come from people who have a longer-term view or an investment in the health of the distro. Cheers, Frank ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Friday 01 Oct 2010 05:03:25 Thorsten van Lil wrote: > Von: mageia-dev-boun...@mageia.org [mailto:mageia-dev-boun...@mageia.org] > Im Auftrag von Gustavo Giampaoli > > > Every distro, with the > > > > right packages, can be whatever the user whants it to be. > > > >From a logical point of you, your right. But people aren't logical. Ship a > > distribution with a background with balloons and some fancy window > decoration and kids will love it, while other will never try it. > > It's stupid, because you can easily change it but nevertheless, that's it > like it work. So for me the question of our main market is a question of > who we want to attract. And I think Graham aims at this to, because we > need a logo, main colors, a website, ... . All these parts should attract > the people of our main market. YodaMan, Yo all hear dis: HEdaMan :D Sorry sleep deprivation and I watched Martin Lawrence last night! ;) > > What packages we ship doesn't really matters, because as you said "Linux is > Linux". > > So, who do we want to attract? > > Regards, > TeaAge > > ___ > Mageia-dev mailing list > Mageia-dev@mageia.org > https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant. INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Open Technologies) www.theingots.org ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Friday 01 Oct 2010 10:11:18 Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > Reading all this one thing comes to my mind: the world is not the same > all over the world. Same applies to your assessments of school > decisions, families and the Linux/WIndows issue. > > Over here the public office of a state controlls what computers and > operating systems are used in schools, money is not a criteria there. > It is, of course, in the sense that many schools can not have > computers at all or just 10 machines for a school of 500 students. Ah, > yes, I'm talking about Germany, not somewhere in central Africa. > The public office makes deals with Microsoft (sometimes Mr. Gates > himself came to visit before a new contract was signed), the largest > local t-com provider sponsors the internet access and the schools have > no say in that. It used to be like that here too, but governments don't like exclusivity and given the option they will contract other players with the right sort of pressure. Novell did it here in NZ, got the same deal as MickySoft. Education departments respond to pressure from industry, simple > > The families: if the kid wants a computer then either Dad buys a new > one and the kids get the old, or they buy a new one but mom has no > say, it's either Dad or the kids because the parents don't know > anything about computers. Nonsense, It's interesting I know quite a few German families here in NZ, perhaps that's why they migrated, so the wife could make the majority of the purchasing decisions. ;) I'm afraid that your impressions fly in the face of all the real marketing intelligence. Dad or kids buy the computers because Mum has been left out of the demographic, typical given the number of women in the industry, but target that demographic and Mum becomes decision maker. In this day and age everyone knows about computers even if they don't know how to operate them. They also know the significance of computers in modern society and In this target group they would invariably know how to work them. I'm talking young parents here, they've likely had computers to work and play with right through their Secondary school career and now they have school age kids of their own who demand technology > > One of the largest and fastest growing groups of computer users over > here are people of age, retired persons who visit computer courses in > the neighborhood center (I'm teaching there sometimes). They are a > target group also. Agreed wholeheartedly and guess what, many have Grandchildren and families > > I think the one you picked (young couples with kids) are those who are > the unlikeliest targets - Mom and Dad are working, perhaps with > computers, most times with Windows. Kids will learn their computer > knowledge in school, not at home because Mom and Dad have no time for > that. Nonsense, this group understands that education is nonstop process and for their children to make the most of their educational opportunities then they need the tools at home to do it. It is a market that is ripe for the plucking because the only people targeting them right now is Microsoft. > > See, this is quite different to the picture you are painting, and I > can imagine that it may be still different in other areas of the > world. Every place is unique, but not as unique as we'd all like to believe, one thing that marketing tells you. A good example is Micky Ds, the same everywhere, with slight local variations. > > Therefore picking one target group for a worldwide project like this > is the wrong way IMHO. I am not picking one target group, I am identifying an untapped market and a potentially large one. It's also a small network of 4.2 people and more when you include a third generation, and personal network is our weakest link and MS's strongest > > wobo cheers GL -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant. INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Open Technologies) www.theingots.org ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Friday 01 Oct 2010 07:41:01 Michael Scherer wrote: > Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 22:05 +0800, Kira a écrit : > > "A distribution for Newbie" is good, but I think what Graham said is > > better. > > Well, > saying "a distribution for newbies" is not as good as it sound. Kira is being positive and you have spent the rest of the mail arguing a way to agree with her. :) But thanks anyway for the reinforcement > > If you market the distribution so people think "if you are a newbie, use > this distro", people will think "he use this distribution so he is a > newbie". This will drive knowledgeable peoples away to others > distribution, because they will feel they will learn more by using > another distro ( which is wrong ) and because others peoples will appear > as more knowledgeable when they use a distro that is not aimed at > newbies. > > In turn, this mean a diminution of the global expertise in the > community. Less expert users to answer to support, less experts users to > report bug, fix packages, create softwares or contribute, and to > basically teach to new users how to be good community member resulting > in less quality, and a less sustainable community. > > Apple does it correctly. They never say "we target newbie users". > See http://www.apple.com//why-mac/ > "better computer" "most advanced os" "award winning support" "latest > technology" "software you love". Neither are we saying that, in fact what we would possibly be saying is "Mageia has the tools to allow your Genius (tm) to achieve their place in the world" or something of that nature. What you are talking about is an advertising approach not a marketing demographic and so is somewhat premature We haven't stated how we would approach the market only that we identified this as a possible target. Cheers GL -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant. INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Open Technologies) www.theingots.org ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Le vendredi 01 octobre 2010 à 00:28 +0300, P. Christeas a écrit : > On Thursday 30 September 2010, Michael Scherer wrote: > > Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 22:05 +0800, Kira a écrit : > > > "A distribution for Newbie" is good, but I think what Graham said is > > > better. > > > > Well, > > saying "a distribution for newbies" is not as good as it sound. > > > > If you market the distribution so people think "if you are a newbie, use > > this distro", people will think "he use this distribution so he is a > > newbie". ... > > > > In turn, this mean a diminution of the global expertise in the > > community > > ++ > What about the "easy to learn distro" as a concept? Yup, the distro that make you become expert, something like that. One thing we must not forget is that we need people that contribute if we want to survive. A commercial distribution requires money ( and therefore users that can bring money , either directly, or either indirectly ( service, ads, etc )) to survive. We are not a commercial distribution, so the pressure is lower with regard to money. But we still to have people that develop it, and if we cannot pay people for that directly ( since we are not a company, even if maybe some companies will help us later ), we need to directly use contributions as a way to ensure our own sustainability. SO IMHO, this is what we should seek if we want to survive. Gathering contributions should be one of our goals. The second point is that we are here because we want community empowerment. So community also must be a strong point, especially since it will appeal to people that would allow the community to survive. So again, I think that empowerment should be another one of the goals. Now, we must ask ourself "what is pushing people to contribute". There is various papers, like this one http://firstmonday.org/htbin/cgiwrap/bin/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/1113/1033 ( I let the analysis as a exercise for the moment ). And we need to find a way to combine this with others goals. While a traditional motivation in free software is to solve our own problem ( and that's also part of community empowerment ), this is not enough. We also need to think to more than us. And I think that's the complex part. We have 2 choices. Either we try to find a market where no one went, or a market where someone went, and try to be better. Or maybe both. -- Michael Scherer ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Friday 01 Oct 2010 03:05:26 Kira wrote: > > Just saying that Mageia can do anything would make new comers wonder: > > So, what's the difference Mageia had toward other distribution? > > We can still list out what Mageia can do, but some personality is > > definitely needed, Cool Kira, I love the concept of "Personality", that's what branding should do: Highlight the Personality and Personality is a strong attractor in this market Define that personality and that guides branding elements such as Logo and mascot. Cheers GL -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant. INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Open Technologies) www.theingots.org ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Friday 01 Oct 2010 02:34:08 Thorsten van Lil wrote: > -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- > Von: mageia-dev-boun...@mageia.org [mailto:mageia-dev-boun...@mageia.org] > Im Auftrag von Graham Lauder > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 30. September 2010 13:21 > An: Mageia development mailing-list > Betreff: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets > >>A mistake that is often made is branding from an internal aesthetic when >>in fact branding should be more aimed externally to attract a new >>demographic. >> >>If the gods are in alignment then ideally it should point toward our >> principle point of difference and again this influences our branding >> choices in terms of Colour Pallet Logo and so forth. > > This point is a bit difficult to me, as we (as the community) are the > internal and external in one. We create the distribution for us (the whole > community) and try enlarge the community. There is a balancing act of course and all one can do is reiterate the concept so that when people make a decision they take it into account. But then that's my job, because at first the marketing is always aimed inward. For this concept it's actually not that hard, all I'm asking people to think about is: "Would your Mother like this branding?" because at the end of the day that's who the target is, the vast majority of family purchase decisions are made by the mother. > > For example, afaik nearly 75% of the mandriva user (and there for Mageia > user) use KDE. If we for example aim an group of people which KDE doesn't > fit, we will probably loose more users the win new users. That's the tricky > part of a community distro I think ;) Ubuntu has done well, being focused on Gnome. I do like the suggestion that we should be the Best KDE OS, it's a good focus. > >>The "feel" to me that came from the brainstorming was that Mageia could be >>marketed as the "Family Distro". This being a principle point of difference >>when a user makes a decision as to what operating system to run. > > Although I don't count myself to this group, I'm totally fine with the idea > and see that it is a nearly untapped market. But on the otherside: how big > could this market be? Huge. > > >So for instance as well as the standard software, educational programmes > > would > > >be installed by default, be NetSafe (Dans Guardian), have OOo4Kids > > installed > > >as well as a full office suite, Tuxtype, TuxPaint and so on. > > Here I see some problems: > If we release a LiveCD and a DVD (like Mandriva does), there will be enough > space on the LiveCD for extra software. On the DVD there is enough space I > think, but is it for example really necessary to ship to office suits, just > to define our aimed market? On a DVD there would be room, especially we concentrated on a single major DE, but that is a packaging issue > > >Documentation added to show parents how to set up accounts for the kids > >and > > > >how to make it Net safe. > > That's a really cool idea! As we also debate about a welcome center, there > should definitely be a link in it, to that kind of documentation. > > I think that the normal home user and a young family have nearly the same > requirements. Both need an easy to install and maintain and use system (yes > I know: who doesn't want this). Maybe we can create a distribution which > fits such requirements and specialize to the family with meta-packages, > special documentation and tools for them? > > Regards, > TeaAge > Cheers GL -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant. INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Open Technologies) www.theingots.org ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Friday 01 Oct 2010 03:09:25 Frank Griffin wrote: > Marc Paré wrote: > > Le 2010-09-30 07:21, Graham Lauder a écrit : > >> The "feel" to me that came from the brainstorming was that Mageia > >> could be > >> marketed as the "Family Distro". > > > > I think that if you target the software packages that are compatible > > with Educational software advocated by educational organizations, we > > could make quite large inroads in the adaptability of Mageia. > > I think that these are endeavors for an entity which is exactly what > we've just got done saying Mageia *isn't*, namely a commercial venture. In a phrase: Horse Doo doo (not exactly what I wanted to say but I wanted to protect the "G" rating! :) ) This is not about commercial, it's about market. Mageia has a donation system, in my culture the nearest thing is called Koha (Yes the name of the open source Library Management Software) It is a sort of open source value assignation system, it's not that it is "cost free" but more that it's "Cost optional" and the simple fact that we have a donation system in place means we follow this model. Branding is also about this but we'll come back to that. We do this because at the end of the day infrastructure costs, marketing costs, a whole pile of things cost. One day some patch or application, which is essential but completely non-sexy could require us to pay a dev on contract and so on and so forth. Now our problem is that in these days of "everything free off the Internet" getting Koha is problematic. However there is, obviously, a proportion of the market that is willing to give Koha. That proportion in a market is generally but arguably fixed, so the bigger the market the greater the Koha. Our advantage is that our "costs" vary little with the size of the market. There could be an argument made that "Cost Optional" is a commercial model, but a commercial model demands profit margins and I don't think that's where we're at. > > Currently, the package inventory of Mandriva is fairly all-inclusive, > and I don't think we should abandon any specific interest group. > Mandriva may have to do this to remain commercially viable - we do not. > > However, let me try to translate your desires into a more technical > objective that would meet the need.. > > Traditionally, the MDV ISO-building process has been complex, not > well-documented, and difficult for anyone outside of MDV to use. [.] > You want it, you design it, you press the button > and build it. > > It should not be too difficult to write a utility that goes through a > content list and automatically updates the package names to newer > versions, so maintenance could be minimal. Of course, you'd need to > fire up the build utility to see if there are new package requirements > or if you've exceeded your space constraint. There is already a way of doing that, it's called OBS (OpenSUSE Build service, it's free software, install it or in fact use it) and with that and SUSE Studio, OpenSUSE have that corner of the market targeted and nailed. [] Cheers GL -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant. INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Open Technologies) www.theingots.org ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Thursday 30 September 2010, Michael Scherer wrote: > Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 22:05 +0800, Kira a écrit : > > "A distribution for Newbie" is good, but I think what Graham said is > > better. > > Well, > saying "a distribution for newbies" is not as good as it sound. > > If you market the distribution so people think "if you are a newbie, use > this distro", people will think "he use this distribution so he is a > newbie". ... > > In turn, this mean a diminution of the global expertise in the > community ++ What about the "easy to learn distro" as a concept? -- Say NO to spam and viruses. Stop using Microsoft Windows! ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Reading all this one thing comes to my mind: the world is not the same all over the world. Same applies to your assessments of school decisions, families and the Linux/WIndows issue. Over here the public office of a state controlls what computers and operating systems are used in schools, money is not a criteria there. It is, of course, in the sense that many schools can not have computers at all or just 10 machines for a school of 500 students. Ah, yes, I'm talking about Germany, not somewhere in central Africa. The public office makes deals with Microsoft (sometimes Mr. Gates himself came to visit before a new contract was signed), the largest local t-com provider sponsors the internet access and the schools have no say in that. The families: if the kid wants a computer then either Dad buys a new one and the kids get the old, or they buy a new one but mom has no say, it's either Dad or the kids because the parents don't know anything about computers. One of the largest and fastest growing groups of computer users over here are people of age, retired persons who visit computer courses in the neighborhood center (I'm teaching there sometimes). They are a target group also. I think the one you picked (young couples with kids) are those who are the unlikeliest targets - Mom and Dad are working, perhaps with computers, most times with Windows. Kids will learn their computer knowledge in school, not at home because Mom and Dad have no time for that. See, this is quite different to the picture you are painting, and I can imagine that it may be still different in other areas of the world. Therefore picking one target group for a worldwide project like this is the wrong way IMHO. wobo ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
On Friday 01 Oct 2010 02:04:26 Marc Paré wrote: > Le 2010-09-30 07:21, Graham Lauder a écrit : > > A group of the marketing and communication peoples got together to get > > our heads around Vision and Mission Statement. Everyone brainstormed > > what they saw as the core values of Mageia to give a direction that the > > Projects Vision and mission statement could head. > > > > The reasoning behind this is it points a figurative arrow at our primary > > target market and thus gives us a guide toward where our branding should > > be aimed. > > > > A mistake that is often made is branding from an internal aesthetic when > > in fact branding should be more aimed externally to attract a new > > demographic. If the gods are in alignment then ideally it should point > > toward our principle point of difference and again this influences our > > branding choices in terms of Colour Pallet Logo and so forth. > > > > The "feel" to me that came from the brainstorming was that Mageia could > > be marketed as the "Family Distro". This being a principle point of > > difference when a user makes a decision as to what operating system to > > run. > > > > Our principle competitor, MS competes against the Linux universe as a > > whole but other distros compete for the MS user base aimed at particular > > Demographics. For instance: > > OpenSUSE aims at the "Power User" Market > > Ubuntu aims at the young individual end of the market > > CentOS at Community enterprise and Not For Profits > > Fedora at the Computing Professional > > > > Mageia could therefore aim at the Young Married professional market, > > being the Distro that could be installed on the home computer and geared > > so that the whole family could use it. > > > > So for instance as well as the standard software, educational programmes > > would be installed by default, be NetSafe (Dans Guardian), have OOo4Kids > > installed as well as a full office suite, Tuxtype, TuxPaint and so on. > > > > Documentation added to show parents how to set up accounts for the kids > > and how to make it Net safe. > > > > I think that this is an untapped market right now and something that the > > project could leverage into a marketing campaign and guide us in terms of > > branding. > > > > Comments? > > > > Cheers > > GL > > I think that if you target the software packages that are compatible > with Educational software advocated by educational organizations, we > could make quite large inroads in the adaptability of Mageia.For > example, when marketing the OS, emphasis on the distro that can carry > your kids through their educational paths with such packages as > OpenOffice (soon to be LibreOffice -- make sure the MSWorks plug-in is > also included) compatible with MSOffice; GIMP similar to Photoshop and > some plugins are compatible; Freemind mindmapping; etc. If Mageia > concentrated on making these software packages work solidly then you > could have a good run at competing with other linux distros in the > educational field. Indeed, that's why I suggest OOo4Kids. The go-oo.org version is pretty much essential right now because of it's GoogleDocs/Zoho integration. Schools are using the cloud as an educational tool more and more. > > BTW, in Canada, many school boards still use the Novel Netware setups > and they are just now in the midst of planning out its replacement. My > school board for example will have to replace close to 10,000 units if > they were to move to a Linux setup. I sat in on a meeting about 5 years > ago to hear out a RehHat re-seller's pitch. Most school boards are > almost at the break point and will be actively looking for new > networking/desktop solutions. Common all over the world and if the school can see that the software used at school is as friendly on the home computer... > > So, compatibility with educational software. The distro should also be > an easy install for everyone and GUI run. If we are going to make it and > contend with other distros, the majority of users want a GUI run install > where everything works right away. There should be as little fiddling > around as possible. Install (15-20 minutes), then, register user > accounts, shares for accounts, re-name the computer to instill a sense > of ownership to the user (rather than having your computer called > "localhost" all the time, and then you are done! (Cups and 3d should be > installed automatically during the install phase). Make the install as > easy as possible. When I started using Linux (Mandrake was my first distro and the reason I abandoned Windows) MCC to me, a nongeek, was the killer app. OpenSuSE's Yast is/was the only real competition. The ability to administer everything from a GUI is killer for the Ex-windows user. > > The next is a distro with games and solid multi-player game setups that > work. Get the distro to play nice with WOW and other popular games. This > will kill the competition and grab kids attention. Have a Mageia
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
> > "A distribution for Newbie" is good, but I think what Graham said is > > better. > > Well, > saying "a distribution for newbies" is not as good as it sound. > > If you market the distribution so people think "if you are a newbie, > use > this distro", people will think "he use this distribution so he is a > newbie". This will drive knowledgeable peoples away to others > distribution, because they will feel they will learn more by using > another distro ( which is wrong ) and because others peoples will > appear > as more knowledgeable when they use a distro that is not aimed at > newbies. > > In turn, this mean a diminution of the global expertise in the > community. Less expert users to answer to support, less experts users > to > report bug, fix packages, create softwares or contribute, and to > basically teach to new users how to be good community member resulting > in less quality, and a less sustainable community. > > Apple does it correctly. They never say "we target newbie users". > See http://www.apple.com//why-mac/ > "better computer" "most advanced os" "award winning support" "latest > technology" "software you love". > > Everything resolve around how they are good, not how beginner you can > be. > > Or see http://www.apple.com/why-mac/better-os/ > they say "it is easy", but they never say "it is easy and can be used > by > a newbie". They say "it is easy and you will learn how to use it fast", > which is more positive. > > And so I think we should also try to avoid this pitfall, right from the > start, if we want to have a thriving sustainable community. > > -- > Michael Scherer Oh my god you're damn right on this one Michael. I agree and +1000 on this one. You see how perception is really important and we must send the right message to future and potential contributors because every new user is a potential contributor. Let's not forget that fact. Patrick Dubeau (alias DaaX) - Webmaster MLO http://www.mandrivalinux-online.org ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
> Ease of use should not be restricted to newbies. People use to think that being advance user or a "hacker" is the same to be masochistic X I mean, no matter how advance you are, why will you want to type a houndred lines of text in a console if you can point and click 5 times in a beautiful window with buttons, icons, colors and maybe animations? "Easy" doesn't mean "made for stupid people". For me, "easy" is "more time enjoying, less suffering" XD Cheers! Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980) ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Le 30/09/2010 20:41, Michael Scherer a écrit : > Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 22:05 +0800, Kira a écrit : > >> "A distribution for Newbie" is good, but I think what Graham said is >> better. > > Well, > saying "a distribution for newbies" is not as good as it sound. > > If you market the distribution so people think "if you are a newbie, use > this distro", people will think "he use this distribution so he is a > newbie". This will drive knowledgeable peoples away to others > distribution, because they will feel they will learn more by using > another distro ( which is wrong ) and because others peoples will appear > as more knowledgeable when they use a distro that is not aimed at > newbies. > > In turn, this mean a diminution of the global expertise in the > community. Less expert users to answer to support, less experts users to > report bug, fix packages, create softwares or contribute, and to > basically teach to new users how to be good community member resulting > in less quality, and a less sustainable community. > > Apple does it correctly. They never say "we target newbie users". > See http://www.apple.com//why-mac/ > "better computer" "most advanced os" "award winning support" "latest > technology" "software you love". > > Everything resolve around how they are good, not how beginner you can > be. > > Or see http://www.apple.com/why-mac/better-os/ > they say "it is easy", but they never say "it is easy and can be used by > a newbie". They say "it is easy and you will learn how to use it fast", > which is more positive. > > And so I think we should also try to avoid this pitfall, right from the > start, if we want to have a thriving sustainable community. > +1 Ease of use should not be restricted to newbies. Sometimes, you just want a standard system that work, can connect to the internet in many different situations, etc. (because you use it every day for your business, and all your colleagues too). In other times, you require a system much more tailored (e.g. server or developer computer), on which you can afford to spend some time to configure/maintain it. Mageia should accomodate both. Daniel ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 22:05 +0800, Kira a écrit : > "A distribution for Newbie" is good, but I think what Graham said is > better. Well, saying "a distribution for newbies" is not as good as it sound. If you market the distribution so people think "if you are a newbie, use this distro", people will think "he use this distribution so he is a newbie". This will drive knowledgeable peoples away to others distribution, because they will feel they will learn more by using another distro ( which is wrong ) and because others peoples will appear as more knowledgeable when they use a distro that is not aimed at newbies. In turn, this mean a diminution of the global expertise in the community. Less expert users to answer to support, less experts users to report bug, fix packages, create softwares or contribute, and to basically teach to new users how to be good community member resulting in less quality, and a less sustainable community. Apple does it correctly. They never say "we target newbie users". See http://www.apple.com//why-mac/ "better computer" "most advanced os" "award winning support" "latest technology" "software you love". Everything resolve around how they are good, not how beginner you can be. Or see http://www.apple.com/why-mac/better-os/ they say "it is easy", but they never say "it is easy and can be used by a newbie". They say "it is easy and you will learn how to use it fast", which is more positive. And so I think we should also try to avoid this pitfall, right from the start, if we want to have a thriving sustainable community. -- Michael Scherer ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Von: mageia-dev-boun...@mageia.org [mailto:mageia-dev-boun...@mageia.org] Im Auftrag von Gustavo Giampaoli > Every distro, with the > right packages, can be whatever the user whants it to be. >From a logical point of you, your right. But people aren't logical. Ship a distribution with a background with balloons and some fancy window decoration and kids will love it, while other will never try it. It's stupid, because you can easily change it but nevertheless, that's it like it work. So for me the question of our main market is a question of who we want to attract. And I think Graham aims at this to, because we need a logo, main colors, a website, ... . All these parts should attract the people of our main market. What packages we ship doesn't really matters, because as you said "Linux is Linux". So, who do we want to attract? Regards, TeaAge ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 17:03:30, Gustavo Giampaoli a écrit : > > > We do have to find a place in the market slice, or no one would care > > > > about who you are. All-purpose is great, but not for people who is > > unfamiliar > > > > to our distro: > > > > It's too vague and not attractive since no one knows your strength. > > I agree. If you have being in linux for a little time, you learn that > all distros are Linux are Linux are Linux. Every distro, with the > right packages, can be whatever the user whants it to be. Maybe some > uses DEB, other RPM, Gentoo uses ports, Pardus Pisi. But these are > small differences. The truth is any linux-based OS can be whatever > user whants. > > So, Mageia should say "this is is my target, my zone. I can do all, > but this is what I do best" > > Cheers! > > The names Mandrake, and now Mageia, make me think about ease of use : "everything works like magic". The Mandriva Control Center is one of the strength of Mandriva and now Mageia. I hope it will remains such. You change a parameter, and "voilà", it works like expected. (Of course you still can tweak configuration files by yourself, but you can do that in any distribution). One of the tools we use most is "drakconnect" in console, for our customers (hospitals). They want to change the gateway, or IP address, and we don't have to make them tweak any configuration file (many wouldn't know how to do !) : just issue the drakconnect command, follow the steps, and everything works like a charm. Want to open a new port in the firewall ? Just run drakfirewall and type in the port you have to open. The drakxtools, and the ability to chose between different desktops (KDE, GNOME, XFCE...), are what I value most in Mandriva. Sure, many will have different opinions, now you have mine. I saw people on forums say "at last we don't have to use the command line to configure everything. I went to ubuntu forums and they always give commands like 'sudo this', 'sudo that' to solve various problems". Don't get me wrong : I use the command line very often. But I like that in Mandriva if you don't want to, often you don't have to use it. Don't know if it makes the discussion about marketing position go forward... Regards Samuel Verschelde ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
> We do have to find a place in the market slice, or no one would care > > about who you are. All-purpose is great, but not for people who is > unfamiliar > > to our distro: > > It's too vague and not attractive since no one knows your strength. I agree. If you have being in linux for a little time, you learn that all distros are Linux are Linux are Linux. Every distro, with the right packages, can be whatever the user whants it to be. Maybe some uses DEB, other RPM, Gentoo uses ports, Pardus Pisi. But these are small differences. The truth is any linux-based OS can be whatever user whants. So, Mageia should say "this is is my target, my zone. I can do all, but this is what I do best" Cheers! Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980) ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Choosing a target market is more than making a listing of your competitors' markets and combining some words to create a unique-sounding market. And it's more that guessing that some as-yet-unidentified market can be grepped from the imagination. For Mageia, it's an expression of leadership. It won't be found in a mail list survey or a popularity poll; it will be found in the Mageia leadership. There are many, many Linux distros in existence. Each has its own take on kernel patches, packaging managers, desktops, multimedia, programming languages, management tools, color schemes and so on. These things are superficial since once installed, every Linux distro is doing essentially the same thing. The choice of those little pieces and their development is what excites and motivates the people that put together the distro The effectiveness of all these pieces is what excites and motivates the user of the distro. Meeting the needs of the end user determines if the distro will be popular or not. But it's picking the correct end user to target that determines the ultimate success of the distro. Mandriva never figured out who its end user was or what its market was and as a result tried to be everything to everybody and failed, not because it was a bad distro (it remains one of the best), but because it never had focus, it never knew its market. One of the most important things that the Mageia leadership needs to determine is the focus, the goal, the entire point of the existence of Mageia. The leadership needs to decide. They need to do it because they need the investment in order to be motivated to lead, manage and build the distro. They need to do it because it demonstrates that they are capable of leading us and are worth investing in. They need to do it because it needs to be done now. -- Hoyt ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Kira wrote: > Yes, Mageia or Mandrake/Mandriva is for all purpose, but every distro > can be all-purpose. The point is: There's no distinctive difference > toward other distribution. The failure of Mandriva SA business can be > connected to many factor, which I believe part of the problem is that > the product don't stands out Kira, Exactly my thoughts. That's why the point proposed by Graham is so important. to start product differentiation. And because it is Linux, it was/is/will be all-purpose. Salut, Sinner ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
在 Thu, 30 Sep 2010 22:18:08 +0800, Samuel Verschelde 寫道: Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 16:05:26, Kira a écrit : So, what's the difference Mageia had toward other distribution? "Simple to use yet powerful" : - newbie-friendly (yes ubuntu is on this market, but to me Mandriva does it better) - powerful - comprehensive (many packages available in many fields) Then nothing prevents from saying also, for example : "Mageia, ideal for music making", with news, screenshots, people sharing their experience, howtos... "Mageia, easy yet powerful on servers", ... You said nothing about my concern that Mandriva may be seen only as, say, a distribution for education. What about that ? All purpose means no one knows what the distro wants to do. Making a specific version for education/small business or whatever won't makes the distro seems only focus on one thing, but a proof of full feature OS. The point is: you have to emphasis something different, not something others also owns/easily achieved/already well-implemented/advertised. I don't agree with the way ubuntu flushing the whole board of different purpose but actually same thing strategy, but it does makes people knows what to choose to fit their need, which is important to makes people accept your product. We do have to find a place in the market slice, or no one would care about who you are. All-purpose is great, but not for people who is unfamiliar to our distro: It's too vague and not attractive since no one knows your strength. ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Samuel Verschelde wrote: > Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 16:09:25, Frank Griffin a écrit : > >> These need not all be available on the same release date. Whatever we >> decide constitutes a "core" set could form the actual release, with the >> others appearing as the interested groups have time to produce them. >> >> > And then we advertise them as much as we can, without forgetting to stress > that those are just specialized versions of the core "all-purpose" Mageia > distribution. The "family targeted" distribution may be one major sub-project > in Mageia if this is seen as a real "market" to target. > > A follow-on idea is to expand the "Install Updates" portion of the install to allow the installation over the network of "task-"-type virtual RPMs intended to customize the system for specific purposes. This would be a network version of the same idea. ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 16:09:25, Frank Griffin a écrit : > These need not all be available on the same release date. Whatever we > decide constitutes a "core" set could form the actual release, with the > others appearing as the interested groups have time to produce them. > And then we advertise them as much as we can, without forgetting to stress that those are just specialized versions of the core "all-purpose" Mageia distribution. The "family targeted" distribution may be one major sub-project in Mageia if this is seen as a real "market" to target. Regards Samuel Verschelde ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 16:05:26, Kira a écrit : > So, what's the difference Mageia had toward other distribution? "Simple to use yet powerful" : - newbie-friendly (yes ubuntu is on this market, but to me Mandriva does it better) - powerful - comprehensive (many packages available in many fields) Then nothing prevents from saying also, for example : "Mageia, ideal for music making", with news, screenshots, people sharing their experience, howtos... "Mageia, easy yet powerful on servers", ... You said nothing about my concern that Mandriva may be seen only as, say, a distribution for education. What about that ? Regards Samuel Verschelde ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Marc Paré wrote: > Le 2010-09-30 07:21, Graham Lauder a écrit : >> >> The "feel" to me that came from the brainstorming was that Mageia >> could be >> marketed as the "Family Distro". > I think that if you target the software packages that are compatible > with Educational software advocated by educational organizations, we > could make quite large inroads in the adaptability of Mageia. I think that these are endeavors for an entity which is exactly what we've just got done saying Mageia *isn't*, namely a commercial venture. Currently, the package inventory of Mandriva is fairly all-inclusive, and I don't think we should abandon any specific interest group. Mandriva may have to do this to remain commercially viable - we do not. However, let me try to translate your desires into a more technical objective that would meet the need.. Traditionally, the MDV ISO-building process has been complex, not well-documented, and difficult for anyone outside of MDV to use. I think Mageia should have a simplified process for package selection that would enable community users to assemble install ISOs geared to specific needs, such as those you mention. This should be as easy as constructing an ISO using k3b or brasero, but would need to be driven by the RPM information (e.g. requires). Actually, a lot of the RPMDrake design could be used (if not much of the actual code) to allow a user to drag and drop Application Categories or specific packages. As with any CD/DVD burner, the GUI would keep track of whether you were over the limit for the volume size, so that you could then pare the package list. This would allow us to have as many ISOs (or ISO sets) as there are people interested in maintaining the individual content lists. You could have a server version, an office desktop version, a games version, an education version, a power-user version, etc. It would also end the endless bickering among those who want every media combination from a stub-based full network install to a fully self-contained multi-DVD or even Blu-Ray install. You want it, you design it, you press the button and build it. It should not be too difficult to write a utility that goes through a content list and automatically updates the package names to newer versions, so maintenance could be minimal. Of course, you'd need to fire up the build utility to see if there are new package requirements or if you've exceeded your space constraint. These need not all be available on the same release date. Whatever we decide constitutes a "core" set could form the actual release, with the others appearing as the interested groups have time to produce them. Another idea that fits with this is the concept of a two-tiered install: create a single general-purpose bare-bones ISO that installs a common baseline of packages, and create a variety of secondary install ISOs geared to specific audiences. People would download the common one plus whichever other(s) they wanted. ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
I also think that it's not that Mageia will lose the ability to be a power server, or a development platform. It's more about "which will be the default installation" or "who will Mageia target with the standard installation". You always can, during installation, change for the packages custom selection, or mark on the different options like "server" or "development platform", etc. Or after installation, with urpmi and repos you can build whatever you need / want. In Mandriva, you always could build a desktop or a power server. It all depends of the user. Cheers! Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980) ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
在 Thu, 30 Sep 2010 21:34:26 +0800, Samuel Verschelde 寫道: I don't know whether I agree or not, but I would like to point out that to me Mandriva is/was et Mageia will/could be a generalist distribution. Which means : - suitable for power users (if one can count me in this category, Mandriva is my desktop of choice) - suitable for your individuals (My young brother uses Mandriva Linux) - suitable for community enterprise and for professionnal actors (We've got more than 400 Mandriva Free servers in production in french hospitals, and several workstations here) I know there is a difference between saying that the distro is "suitable" for something and its marketing targeting , but I still remember people telling me "Mandriva is a distro for newbies, not for power users or businesses". I want to avoid this at all prices. If I were to choose right now, I would say : advertise Mageia as a generalist distro suitable for many needs just like Mandriva is/was, and then have specific compaigns to highlight some specific usages : in educationnal fields, server usage, workstation usage, etc. I think what Graham want to express is that Mageia got to find her own position in the market, if we hope Mageia could be better promoted. Yes, Mageia or Mandrake/Mandriva is for all purpose, but every distro can be all-purpose. The point is: There's no distinctive difference toward other distribution. The failure of Mandriva SA business can be connected to many factor, which I believe part of the problem is that the product don't stands out among competitors. All- purpose is good, but some personality is also important. "A distribution for Newbie" is good, but I think what Graham said is better. We have to find a specific portion of the market to survive, with something stands out among other competitors like educational/small business/suited for... blah, blah, blah. Just saying that Mageia can do anything would make new comers wonder: So, what's the difference Mageia had toward other distribution? We can still list out what Mageia can do, but some personality is definitely needed, not just "All-purpose", that's confusing and would makes Mageia no difference comparing to other distro, since you can't speak out your major difference in aspect of Market share. ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Hi, I am a Windows/MS based web apps and software developer. When I have chosen Mandriva (about 10 years ago) for my home PC, my criteria was related to usability and reliability, and the community was a very important criterion. Also easy setup and forget was in my mind and I was pleased by its plenty of packages. I will always look at Linux from the software developer point of view though... ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
I like very much the professional approach and analysis of Graham. And I agree pretty much. However, a "family" distro means, for me, the married man / woman + kids. And that's where I find Marc's approach correct. If you wan that the whole family could enjoy the experience, you must provide to the distro the "tools-for-common-tasks" like office suite, Internet, IM, etc etc, educational software and security-for-kids tools, and of course, solid game experience. If you don't include games, probably you'll have dual-boot PC's instead of Megaia-only PCs. There will be cases where dual-boot will be inevitable (maybe because dad needs a particular tool and Wine is not an option), but we're talking about the majority. Cheers! Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980) ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 15:34:26, Samuel Verschelde a écrit : > > Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 13:21:04, Graham Lauder a écrit : > > Our principle competitor, MS competes against the Linux universe as a whole > > but other distros compete for the MS user base aimed at particular > > Demographics. For instance: > > OpenSUSE aims at the "Power User" Market > > Ubuntu aims at the young individual end of the market > > CentOS at Community enterprise and Not For Profits > > Fedora at the Computing Professional > > > > Mageia could therefore aim at the Young Married professional market, being > > the > > Distro that could be installed on the home computer and geared so that the > > whole family could use it. > > I don't know whether I agree or not, but I would like to point out that to me > Mandriva is/was et Mageia will/could be a generalist distribution. > > Which means : > - suitable for power users (if one can count me in this category, Mandriva is > my desktop of choice) > - suitable for your individuals (My young brother uses Mandriva Linux) > - suitable for community enterprise and for professionnal actors (We've got > more than 400 Mandriva Free servers in production in french hospitals, and > several workstations here) + suitable for family of course : parental control in MCC, my wife uses it without any problem... Regards Samuel ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
-Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: mageia-dev-boun...@mageia.org [mailto:mageia-dev-boun...@mageia.org] Im Auftrag von Graham Lauder Gesendet: Donnerstag, 30. September 2010 13:21 An: Mageia development mailing-list Betreff: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets >A mistake that is often made is branding from an internal aesthetic when in >fact branding should be more aimed externally to attract a new demographic. >If the gods are in alignment then ideally it should point toward our principle >point of difference and again this influences our branding choices in terms of >Colour Pallet Logo and so forth. This point is a bit difficult to me, as we (as the community) are the internal and external in one. We create the distribution for us (the whole community) and try enlarge the community. For example, afaik nearly 75% of the mandriva user (and there for Mageia user) use KDE. If we for example aim an group of people which KDE doesn't fit, we will probably loose more users the win new users. That's the tricky part of a community distro I think ;) >The "feel" to me that came from the brainstorming was that Mageia could be >marketed as the "Family Distro". This being a principle point of difference >when a user makes a decision as to what operating system to run. Although I don't count myself to this group, I'm totally fine with the idea and see that it is a nearly untapped market. But on the otherside: how big could this market be? >So for instance as well as the standard software, educational programmes would >be installed by default, be NetSafe (Dans Guardian), have OOo4Kids installed >as well as a full office suite, Tuxtype, TuxPaint and so on. Here I see some problems: If we release a LiveCD and a DVD (like Mandriva does), there will be enough space on the LiveCD for extra software. On the DVD there is enough space I think, but is it for example really necessary to ship to office suits, just to define our aimed market? >Documentation added to show parents how to set up accounts for the kids and >how to make it Net safe. That's a really cool idea! As we also debate about a welcome center, there should definitely be a link in it, to that kind of documentation. I think that the normal home user and a young family have nearly the same requirements. Both need an easy to install and maintain and use system (yes I know: who doesn't want this). Maybe we can create a distribution which fits such requirements and specialize to the family with meta-packages, special documentation and tools for them? Regards, TeaAge ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 13:21:04, Graham Lauder a écrit : > Our principle competitor, MS competes against the Linux universe as a whole > but other distros compete for the MS user base aimed at particular > Demographics. For instance: > OpenSUSE aims at the "Power User" Market > Ubuntu aims at the young individual end of the market > CentOS at Community enterprise and Not For Profits > Fedora at the Computing Professional > > Mageia could therefore aim at the Young Married professional market, being > the > Distro that could be installed on the home computer and geared so that the > whole family could use it. I don't know whether I agree or not, but I would like to point out that to me Mandriva is/was et Mageia will/could be a generalist distribution. Which means : - suitable for power users (if one can count me in this category, Mandriva is my desktop of choice) - suitable for your individuals (My young brother uses Mandriva Linux) - suitable for community enterprise and for professionnal actors (We've got more than 400 Mandriva Free servers in production in french hospitals, and several workstations here) I know there is a difference between saying that the distro is "suitable" for something and its marketing targeting , but I still remember people telling me "Mandriva is a distro for newbies, not for power users or businesses". I want to avoid this at all prices. If I were to choose right now, I would say : advertise Mageia as a generalist distro suitable for many needs just like Mandriva is/was, and then have specific compaigns to highlight some specific usages : in educationnal fields, server usage, workstation usage, etc. Regards Samuel Verschelde ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Identifying Target Markets
Le 2010-09-30 07:21, Graham Lauder a écrit : A group of the marketing and communication peoples got together to get our heads around Vision and Mission Statement. Everyone brainstormed what they saw as the core values of Mageia to give a direction that the Projects Vision and mission statement could head. The reasoning behind this is it points a figurative arrow at our primary target market and thus gives us a guide toward where our branding should be aimed. A mistake that is often made is branding from an internal aesthetic when in fact branding should be more aimed externally to attract a new demographic. If the gods are in alignment then ideally it should point toward our principle point of difference and again this influences our branding choices in terms of Colour Pallet Logo and so forth. The "feel" to me that came from the brainstorming was that Mageia could be marketed as the "Family Distro". This being a principle point of difference when a user makes a decision as to what operating system to run. Our principle competitor, MS competes against the Linux universe as a whole but other distros compete for the MS user base aimed at particular Demographics. For instance: OpenSUSE aims at the "Power User" Market Ubuntu aims at the young individual end of the market CentOS at Community enterprise and Not For Profits Fedora at the Computing Professional Mageia could therefore aim at the Young Married professional market, being the Distro that could be installed on the home computer and geared so that the whole family could use it. So for instance as well as the standard software, educational programmes would be installed by default, be NetSafe (Dans Guardian), have OOo4Kids installed as well as a full office suite, Tuxtype, TuxPaint and so on. Documentation added to show parents how to set up accounts for the kids and how to make it Net safe. I think that this is an untapped market right now and something that the project could leverage into a marketing campaign and guide us in terms of branding. Comments? Cheers GL I think that if you target the software packages that are compatible with Educational software advocated by educational organizations, we could make quite large inroads in the adaptability of Mageia.For example, when marketing the OS, emphasis on the distro that can carry your kids through their educational paths with such packages as OpenOffice (soon to be LibreOffice -- make sure the MSWorks plug-in is also included) compatible with MSOffice; GIMP similar to Photoshop and some plugins are compatible; Freemind mindmapping; etc. If Mageia concentrated on making these software packages work solidly then you could have a good run at competing with other linux distros in the educational field. BTW, in Canada, many school boards still use the Novel Netware setups and they are just now in the midst of planning out its replacement. My school board for example will have to replace close to 10,000 units if they were to move to a Linux setup. I sat in on a meeting about 5 years ago to hear out a RehHat re-seller's pitch. Most school boards are almost at the break point and will be actively looking for new networking/desktop solutions. So, compatibility with educational software. The distro should also be an easy install for everyone and GUI run. If we are going to make it and contend with other distros, the majority of users want a GUI run install where everything works right away. There should be as little fiddling around as possible. Install (15-20 minutes), then, register user accounts, shares for accounts, re-name the computer to instill a sense of ownership to the user (rather than having your computer called "localhost" all the time, and then you are done! (Cups and 3d should be installed automatically during the install phase). Make the install as easy as possible. The next is a distro with games and solid multi-player game setups that work. Get the distro to play nice with WOW and other popular games. This will kill the competition and grab kids attention. Have a Mageia games advocate(s) who periodically send out "snazzy" e-newsletters and a "Magei Games Korner" on the website to foster gamesmanship on the distro. Get the kids talking about the "rock-solid" install of WOW (for example) using Wine -- the distro should come "hard wired" to play! and rock! Have a great advocacy group that will stand up to Mageia bashing and hand out comparative studies on the distro's performance and keep the name in the headlines with such sites as LinuxToday.com. Be proactive rather reactive to Linux possibilities of use where it can rationalized as a good replacement desktop distro. Sorry for the long note. Cheers Marc ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
