[Mailman-Users] Re: Moderator ability to manager users

[Don]

>From: Brad Knowles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Moderator ability to manager users
>To: "Peter McCarroll" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Cc: mailman-users@python.org
>Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
>
>At 9:25 AM -0800 2005-03-24, Peter McCarroll wrote:
>
>>  I have a number of Mailman lists on my server.  I want to retain control
>>  of the list configuration settings centrally (and not give out the
>>  administrator password to others), but allow each list "owner" to moderate
>>  and manage the subscriptions.
>
>   Mailman doesn't work that way.  Moderators can approve, reject, 
>or discard postings that have been held for them to look at, but 
>that's about it.  If you want to do anything more, you need to be an 
>Administrator.
>
>   Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any alternatives to give you more 
>fine-grained control over who can do what.

Actually I was going to ask about the same thing.  Would be great if
there were a way to give 'line item control' to list owners based on
their 'track record' of credibility (brains?) over time.  Some guys
probably just won't have a clue why they shouldn't change certain
things. MM is very well set up but there is so much stuff to learn
that just the volume made the learning curve daunting at first.
Limited access that 'grows' would keep that more sane for some
newbie list owners as well as the poor slob who has to fix the
stuff they mess up.

/noisemaking

Don
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Re: [Mailman-Users] help! mailman not working with virtual servers

[Jim Tittsler]

On Mar 26, 2005, at 16:39, Lynn Siprelle wrote:
This works:
http://lsiprelle.simpli.biz/mailman/listinfo
This doesn't:
http://www.democracyfororegon.com/mailman/listinfo
Same server, same mailman installation. The first one runs fine, the
second one throws premature end of script headers.

What is your web server? What's in the VirtualHost (or whatever)
section of the web server config for the www.democracyfororegon.com
domain?
It looks like the second is a Drupal site, but the first isn't.  Do you 
have an overly aggressive Apache rewrite rule/RewriteBase in the 
.htaccess file for its installation that is affecting Mailman?  (If you 
rename .htaccess, does Mailman web access start working?)

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[Mailman-Users] Re: Moderator ability to manager users

[Brad Knowles]

At 3:26 AM -0500 2005-03-26, Don wrote:
Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any alternatives to give you more
fine-grained control over who can do what.
 Actually I was going to ask about the same thing.  Would be great if
 there were a way to give 'line item control' to list owners based on
 their 'track record' of credibility (brains?) over time.
	If this is important to you, then I would encourage you to go to 
the Mailman RFE page at SourceForge and file your request there.  The 
Mailman developers are not likely to create new options such as this 
unless there is demonstrated demand, and the RFE page is the best way 
to track that.

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-- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755
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[Mailman-Users] Re: MTAs

[Derrick Hudson]

On Fri, Mar 25, 2005 at 06:31:58PM -0800, John W. Baxter wrote:
| On 3/25/2005 17:12, "Brad Knowles" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| 
| > This whole Exim 3/Exim 4 thing is not a problem with postfix.
| > Don't get me wrong, postfix isn't perfect.  But what flaws it has
| > tend to be less visible than this, and the issue of upgrading from
| > one version to another usually has more to do with whether or not a
| > binary package with the new version has yet been prepared, or whether
| > they're willing to take the risk of going straight to the original
| > source.
| 
| Philip is very conscious of backwards compatibility, and very consciously
| broke it in the Exim 3 to Exim 4 transition, because the old configuration
| system and the old way of managing messages had been outgrown by reality.

Indeed.  Don't think of exim3->exim4 as a version upgrade, but rather
replacing a worn-out tool with a fresh one.  Kind of like the zope2 ->
zope3 change, if you're familiar with the zope world.  Or, perhaps,
compare it to Win3.1->Win95 or Win9x->NT/2k/XP.  Same basic
concepts, but new implementation and configuration.

-D

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www: http://dman13.dyndns.org/~dman/jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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[Mailman-Users] Re: MTAs

[Derrick Hudson]

On Fri, Mar 25, 2005 at 11:55:46AM -0800, Heather Madrone wrote:
[...]

| We were going with Debian,
| which then announced that it's dropping sparc support,

Hold up.  Debian hasn't announced any such thing.  Don't pay attention
to the rumors.  Some of the project's leadership *proposed* (notice
that it's just a proposal) and different way of supporting 11+
architectures and making releases manageable.

Even if the proposal is accepted, it doesn't say anything about
*dropping* any architectures.  Rather, it proposes that the less
popular arches be managed independent from the most popular ones.
Sparc would still be supported, as long as anyone cares to use it.

| so we've switched
| to OpenBSD.
| 
| The time has come to start seriously thinking about the MTA.

I recommend either postfix or exim.  I use postfix now, and it is
rather easy to setup, has good performance, and can be instructed not
to trash the machine its on while under heavy load.

| OpenBSD comes with sendmail, but I'm not going down that road again.
| I've heard good things about postfix, but I've never used it.

| It seems somewhat more complex to set up than exim,

postfix is simpler because all of the logic is built-in, you merely
fill in some tables.  I had quite a bit of experience with exim before
I started using postfix.  postfix has better rate- and resource-
limiting controls.

| and its integration with Mailman does not
| seem to be as seamless.

Its integration is nearly perfect -- see README.POSTFIX.  All you
really have to do is put an entry in $alias_maps (and one in
$virtual_alias_maps if mailman will serve virtual domains) and you're
set.

There is one hitch, depending on your setup, which is discussed here:

http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2005-March/017979.html

Grr.  pipermail needs much better MIME support =p.  You'll have to
read the message from me from the mbox archives instead:
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2005-March.txt
but it won't matter to you unless the domain you specify in $mydomain
is in $virtual_mailbox_domains.


I'll comment on a few items from other posts in this, since I happen to
have a bit of knowledge in this area:


Brad wrote:
> I've seen Exim's logs.  I was never able to make much of any sense
> out of them.  I've also seen postfix's logs, and they seem to me to
> be the model of readability and understandability.

As a former expert on exim, exim's logs are extremely informative, but
they're also quite terse.  You have to know how exim organizes things
before they'll make any sense, and then you have to know what the
single-character codes mean before you know what data you are seeing.
postfix logs everything very well.  Each step of the process is
logged, and isn't anywhere near as terse as exim's logs.  Both provide
adequate information to identify and correct any situations that will
arise.

Heather wrote:
>   * Ease of configuration and administration.

Brad wrote:
> Postfix is the only MTA on the planet that can have a truly useful
> two-line configuration file.  Moreover, it has the most intelligible
> configuration file that I have ever seen.  Better still, it comes up
> "default secure", unlike every other MTA I've ever seen.
>
> I've seen Exim configuration files, and it's hard to tell what goes
> where, what is a router versus all the other ways that certain
> things could be handled, etc...

exim is only semi-easy to configure and administer.  postfix is
easier.  exim's model requires you, the administrator, to put together
all the pieces needed for mail handling (access control, routing,
transports) and then it requires you to put the logic in place so that
the right components interact the way you want them to.  The biggest
drawback is the verbosity in the configuration file.  The second
biggest drawback is the trickiness in correctly setting all the
conditions to handle very unusual and strange situations.

I would say that exim is actually more flexible than postfix, since
the admin controls so much of the logic.  However, postfix is simpler
because Wietse already put all the logic in the code and the only
responsibility of the admin is to fill in the tables correctly.


Brad wrote:
> When looking at Exim and Mailman, there is a distinct issue that has
> to be kept in mind.  The instructions for integrating Mailman 2.0.x
> are oriented exclusively towards Exim 3.x, and the instructions for
> integrating Mailman 2.1.x are oriented exclusively towards Exim 4.x.
> If you've got Exim 3.x and you want to use Mailman 2.1.x, you're
> screwed.

John wrote:
> no one should be installing and running Exim 3 these days.

I agree -- exim 3 is extremely old, no longer maintained, and exim 4
greatly simplified the configuration.  I think it has been three or
four years, now, since exim 3 passed the torch on to exim 4, and I
can't think of any -good- reason to use it other than perhaps "if it
ain't broke, don't fix it" (but that includes not u

Re: [Mailman-Users] Re: MTAs

[John W. Baxter]

On 3/26/2005 5:53, "Derrick Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Fast-forward a couple years to another time I moved, and didn't have
> any network for a week or two.  I again made that router my backup MX.
> This time it was running postfix, and I told postfix to accept at most
> 2 simultaneous smtp connections.  During that time the machine had no
> problems, and I was even able to read my mail remotely while I was at
> a conference (albeit slowly).

You could have told Exim to do that (Exim 2 or 3 or 4...I don't remember
Exim 1 well enough to say...we didn't use it long).  I don't think it can
limit the number of things injected via command line calls to
"sendmail"...but that wasn't the problem (Mailman can make it the problem).

Thank you very much for jumping in.  It was very useful to hear from someone
with solid knowledge of both Postfix and Exim.

  --John

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Re: Moderator ability to manager users

[Mark Sapiro]

Brad Knowles wrote:

>At 3:26 AM -0500 2005-03-26, Don wrote:
>
>>> Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any alternatives to give you more
>>>fine-grained control over who can do what.
>>
>>  Actually I was going to ask about the same thing.  Would be great if
>>  there were a way to give 'line item control' to list owners based on
>>  their 'track record' of credibility (brains?) over time.
>
>   If this is important to you, then I would encourage you to go to 
>the Mailman RFE page at SourceForge and file your request there.  The 
>Mailman developers are not likely to create new options such as this 
>unless there is demonstrated demand, and the RFE page is the best way 
>to track that.

There is a patch at
http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=1164457&group_id=103&atid=300103
that allows "line item" selection of which options are available on a
site wide basis. I haven't really looked at this, but it might not be
difficult to modify it for "per-list" rather than "site wide".

--
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] help! mailman not working with virtual servers

[Lynn Siprelle]

It looks like the second is a Drupal site, but the first isn't.  Do 
you have an overly aggressive Apache rewrite rule/RewriteBase in the 
.htaccess file for its installation that is affecting Mailman?  (If 
you rename .htaccess, does Mailman web access start working?)
I don't doubt you, and I will try it, but why would it work on one 
machine and not another, both using Apache?

Lynn
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Re: [Mailman-Users] help! mailman not working with virtual servers

[Mark Sapiro]

Lynn Siprelle wrote:

>I should also have added that I'm using the current beta.

Actually, the current is 2.1.6b5 at
http://mm.tkikuchi.net/mailman-2.1.6b5.tgz

>>> What is your web server? What's in the VirtualHost (or whatever)
>>> section of the web server config for the www.democracyfororegon.com
>>> domain?
>>
>> Apache 1.3.33
>>
>> 
>> ScriptAlias /mailman/ /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/
>>

>>
>>  User admin
>>  Group admin

Is this the group expected by the wrapper?



>>
>> 

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Re: [Mailman-Users] help! mailman not working with virtual servers

[Lynn Siprelle]

I should also have added that I'm using the current beta.
Actually, the current is 2.1.6b5 at
http://mm.tkikuchi.net/mailman-2.1.6b5.tgz
Ah, ok.
User admin
Group admin
Is this the group expected by the wrapper?
To my knowledge. I'll see.
L
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Re: [Mailman-Users] help! mailman not working with virtual servers

[Lynn Siprelle]

User admin
Group admin
Is this the group expected by the wrapper?
This may be it, because turning off my htaccess file didn't do the 
trick.

Lynn
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Re: [Mailman-Users] help! mailman not working with virtual servers

[Lynn Siprelle]

Despair! I can't get it to work. I recompiled making sure that this was  
the group expected by the wrapper and still no dice.

On Mar 26, 2005, at 10:21 AM, Lynn Siprelle wrote:
User admin
Group admin
Is this the group expected by the wrapper?
This may be it, because turning off my htaccess file didn't do the  
trick.

Lynn
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[Mailman-Users] MM within virtual hosting environment

[Aras]

 Hello,

 I know this kind of questions were posted here quite often (yes, I've
done my homework ). I have searched FAQ and archives, however,
haven't found anything similar to my problem. The closest was FAQ
answer: 4.47. Virtual domain hosting with Mailman? - not for me,
however...  :(

 I started a mailing list within virtual VPS environment with several
domains hosted. Now, a strange thing is happening. Mailing list
headers are showing something like the following:

quote
=

List-Unsubscribe:
,

List-Archive: 
List-Post: 

unquote
===

 Please note TWO domain names involved here. Why is that and how this
could be avoided i.e. - how to change DOMAIN-2 to DOMAIN-1 in the
headers?

 Thank you!

 Aras.

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[Mailman-Users] Re: MTAs

[Heather Madrone]

Thank you so much, Derrick.  This is exactly the sort of information
I was looking for.  Of particular interest was the discussion of exim's
and postfix's configuration, the performance benchmarks, and your
story of running the two MTAs through an underpowered router.

At 8:53 AM -0500 3/26/05, Derrick Hudson wrote:
>On Fri, Mar 25, 2005 at 11:55:46AM -0800, Heather Madrone wrote:
>[...]
>
>| We were going with Debian,
>| which then announced that it's dropping sparc support,
>
>Hold up.  Debian hasn't announced any such thing.  Don't pay attention
>to the rumors.  Some of the project's leadership *proposed* (notice
>that it's just a proposal) and different way of supporting 11+
>architectures and making releases manageable.

You're right.  I was trying to gloss over the details of a long search for
an adequate OS.  Suffice to say that the linuces have been dropping sparc
support left and right, and it looked like Debian might follow suit. 

>exim is only semi-easy to configure and administer.  postfix is
>easier.  exim's model requires you, the administrator, to put together
>all the pieces needed for mail handling (access control, routing,
>transports) and then it requires you to put the logic in place so that
>the right components interact the way you want them to.  The biggest
>drawback is the verbosity in the configuration file.  The second
>biggest drawback is the trickiness in correctly setting all the
>conditions to handle very unusual and strange situations.

Yes, this is true.  It took me a few weeks to fine-tune exim so that it
correctly handled all the usual occurrences in my mail world.

It's pretty easy to configure if you can read and think, however, something
that has not always been true in the Unix world.  I had it up and running
and working with Mailman in a few hours, and was marveling at how
smoothly it all went.

>I would say that exim is actually more flexible than postfix, since
>the admin controls so much of the logic.  However, postfix is simpler
>because Wietse already put all the logic in the code and the only
>responsibility of the admin is to fill in the tables correctly.

Are there any configuration options in exim that you miss (or missed)
in Postfix?  I like the ability to control retries, because I don't want more
network traffic than I need to keep my lists running smoothly.  Have you
ever wished for more control in that area, or does Postfix handle it all
so intelligently that you're glad to have it use its brain instead of yours?

>I agree -- exim 3 is extremely old, no longer maintained, and exim 4
>greatly simplified the configuration.  I think it has been three or
>four years, now, since exim 3 passed the torch on to exim 4, and I
>can't think of any -good- reason to use it other than perhaps "if it
>ain't broke, don't fix it" (but that includes not upgrading or
>installing a new mailman on the exim3 server).

One of my concerns with Debian is that Python programs tend to be
closely coupled with Python versions.  I was concerned that I might
be in a position where I'd be stuck in a version of Debian that wouldn't
work with a new version of Python (and hence Mailman).

>Heather wrote:
>> With exim, trying to do VERP processing on the digest runs caused
>> Mailman to flood exim, even when I turned the number of sessions and
>> connections way down.  It also brought my poor Mac, which was not
>> meant to be a server, to its knees.  I'm hoping that the sparc will
>> be able to handle peak loads more gracefully than a Powerbook.

(To be fair to the Powerbook, I was also asking it to be a laptop at the
time.  It could not handle heavy-duty web browsing at the same time
it was handling peak Mailman loads.  Moving VERP from Mailman
to exim and setting up a caching name server solved the problem.)

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[Mailman-Users] Re: MTAs

[Brad Knowles]

At 12:18 PM -0800 2005-03-26, Heather Madrone wrote:
 One of my concerns with Debian is that Python programs tend to be
 closely coupled with Python versions.  I was concerned that I might
 be in a position where I'd be stuck in a version of Debian that wouldn't
 work with a new version of Python (and hence Mailman).
	If you need to keep an old version of Python on the system, you 
can always install a newer version somewhere else, and configure 
Mailman to use that instead of the normal one.  That shouldn't be too 
much work.

 (To be fair to the Powerbook, I was also asking it to be a laptop at the
 time.  It could not handle heavy-duty web browsing at the same time
 it was handling peak Mailman loads.  Moving VERP from Mailman
 to exim and setting up a caching name server solved the problem.)
/me wonders how much of the performance difference was due to letting 
Exim handle the VERP as opposed to setting up a caching nameserver.

--
Brad Knowles, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755
  SAGE member since 1995.  See  for more info.
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[Mailman-Users] Re: MTAs

[Heather Madrone]

...dropping the OS issue, which is not on-topic for this list.

At 9:25 PM +0100 3/26/05, Brad Knowles wrote:
>> (To be fair to the Powerbook, I was also asking it to be a laptop at the
>> time.  It could not handle heavy-duty web browsing at the same time
>> it was handling peak Mailman loads.  Moving VERP from Mailman
>> to exim and setting up a caching name server solved the problem.)
>
>/me wonders how much of the performance difference was due to
>letting Exim handle the VERP as opposed to setting up a caching
>nameserver.

You're right that that caching nameserver made the biggest difference
in terms of increasing network throughput (and decreasing timeouts).
That was probably 2/3 of the performance right there, and it came off
all delivery times, whether the system was busy or not.

In terms of getting the mail into the users' mailboxes, having exim do
the VERP processing decreased the elapsed time for digest deliveries
from a mean of 60 minutes to a mean of 15 minutes.  Mailman had
to make many more connections to exim, and exim was unable to
batch deliveries to the same host as efficiently as it can do when it does
its own VERP processing.  Turnaround on normal list deliveries was
improved also, but not as dramatically.

Exim could certainly be smarter about batching deliveries to the same
host.  It only seems to try for messages that come in on the same queue
run, so it was better to have Mailman send all its digest runs in one
lump sum (more or less) and then have exim churn through them than
to have Mailman dole them out and exim handle them inefficiently.

When I was having Mailman do its own VERP, I'd see exim do VERP
checks repeatedly on the same address.  When exim is doing the VERP,
it still does some of this, but much less.

-- 
Heather Madrone  ([EMAIL PROTECTED])  http://www.madrone.com

A rolling stone gathers no mass.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM within virtual hosting environment

[Mark Sapiro]

Aras wrote:
>
> I know this kind of questions were posted here quite often (yes, I've
>done my homework ). I have searched FAQ and archives, however,
>haven't found anything similar to my problem. The closest was FAQ
>answer: 4.47. Virtual domain hosting with Mailman? - not for me,
>however...  :(


Actually, I think FAQ 4.29 may be the most relevant.


> I started a mailing list within virtual VPS environment with several
>domains hosted. Now, a strange thing is happening. Mailing list
>headers are showing something like the following:
>
>quote
>=
>
>List-Unsubscribe:
>,
>
>List-Archive: 
>List-Post: 
>
>unquote
>===
>
> Please note TWO domain names involved here. Why is that and how this
>could be avoided i.e. - how to change DOMAIN-2 to DOMAIN-1 in the
>headers?

The first step is to make sure your VIRTUAL_HOSTS dictionary is
correct. It is built with add_virtualhost() calls in mm_cfg.py

The basic stuff that's needed in mm_cfg.py is if there are no changes
to DEFAULT_URL_HOST and DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST (i.e. the definitions in
Defaults.py are correct), then what you need in mm_cfg.py is

add_virtualhost(URL_FQDN, EMAIL_FQDN)

for each domain other than the defaults. If DEFAULT_URL_HOST and/or
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST are reassigned in mm_cfg.py then following those
assignments you need

VIRTUAL_HOSTS.clear()
add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)

and

add_virtualhost(URL_FQDN, EMAIL_FQDN)

for each domain other than the defaults.

Other considerations are DEFAULT_URL_HOST and the various URL_FDQN must
all be distinct. if not, earlier add_virtualhost() entries will be
replaced by the last one with the same URL_FQDN key. Also, the
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST and the various EMAIL_FQDN should all be distinct
as well because there are several places where the dictionary gets
inverted and the EMAIL_FQDN is used to look up the URL_FQDN.

Given all that, the domain in the

List-Archive: 

header is looked up in the inverted dictionary using the list's
host_name attribute which in turn is the domain in the

List-Post: 

Therefore, you must have either a VIRTUAL_HOSTS entry of the form

add_virtualhost('lists.DOMAIN-2.COM', 'DOMAIN-1.com')

or no VIRTUAL_HOSTS entry at all with EMAIL_FQDN = 'DOMAIN-1.com', and
DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'lists.DOMAIN-2.COM'.

--
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] help! mailman not working with virtual servers

[Mark Sapiro]

Lynn Siprelle wrote:

>Despair! I can't get it to work. I recompiled making sure that this was  
>the group expected by the wrapper and still no dice.

I'm out of ideas and down to grasping at straws. I noticed in your post
of the VirtualHost section of your Apache config, the first
ScriptAlias was not indented like the rest of the section.



ScriptAlias /mailman/ /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/

ServerName www.democracyfororegon.com
ServerAlias www.democracyfororegon.com democracyfororegon.com


I know it's not Python so indentation shouldn't matter ;-), but I
wonder if the "ScriptAlias /mailman/ /usr/local/mailman/cgi-bin/" is
really on a separate line from "" or
if there's really just a bunch of white space there that makes it
"fold" onto the next line when displayed.

--
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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