[Mailman-Users] Re: Mailing List Bounce Issues

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

steve lund writes:

 > Seems like Google is mucking about with its filters!

That's their raison d'etre.  (It certainly can't be their execrable
UI.)

They do a good job at filtering, and it gets better over time.
Sometimes they make mistakes.  Users want them to shoot first and ask
questions later.  They're pretty good (too good when it comes to
mailing list test messages :-( ) about resisting user pressure to
change their filtering practices.

 > > If I had to guess though, the next most likely thing after DMARC is the
 > > sending server was blacklisted by some recipient domains.

 > This is what I was afraid of. Is there any way of confirming or denying
 > that this is happening.

Not individual domains, without asking them directly.  However, most
likely rather than doing their own blocking, they subscribe to a block
list ("black hole").  There are free services that will check the
major block lists for you.  I have a meeting in 5 minutes so no time
to look up now, maybe after work if nobody else chimes in.

 > So how does an ISP keep their mail server OFF of the SPAM
 > blacklist?

Get the DNS in order (MXes have A records, A records round-trip
through PTR, DKIM, DMARC, and SPF configs are present, correct DKIM
pubkey is present).  Configure DKIM signing and ARC sealing in the
MTA.  Subscribe to various reporting services at major email providers
(Google, Yahoo!, outlook, o365, hotmail, others).  It's a PITA.

Check our FAQ and archives:

Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

Steve
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Mailing List Bounce Issues

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

steve lund writes:

 > Seems like Google is mucking about with its filters!

That's their raison d'etre.  (It certainly can't be their execrable
UI.)

They do a good job, sometime they make mistakes.  Users want them to
shoot first and ask questions later.  They're pretty good (too good
when it comes to test messages :-( ) about resisting user pressure to
decrease mail reliability.

 > > If I had to guess though, the next most likely thing after DMARC is the
 > > sending server was blacklisted by some recipient domains.

 > This is what I was afraid of. Is there any way of confirming or denying
 > that this is happening.

Not individual domains.  However, most likely they subscribe to a
block list ("black hole").  There are free services that will check
block lists for you.  I have a meeting in 5 minutes so no time to look
up now, maybe after work if nobody else chimes in.

 > So how does an ISP keep their mail server OFF of the SPAM
 > blacklist?

Get the DNS in order (MXes have A records, A records round-trip
through PTR, DKIM, DMARC, and SPF configs are present, correct DKIM
pubkey is present).  Configure DKIM signing and ARC sealing in the
MTA.  Subscribe to various reporting services at major email providers
(Google, Yahoo!, outlook, o365, hotmail, others).  It's a PITA.

Check our FAQ and archives:

Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Searchable Archives: https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/
 
https://mail.python.org/archives/list/mailman-users@python.org/

Steve
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Mailing List Bounce Issues

[Mark Sapiro]

On 2/1/21 6:25 PM, steve lund wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 1, 2021 at 12:05 PM Mark Sapiro  wrote:
>>
>> So it seems the notices are being sent and delivered to your spam
>> folder. You will need to regularly check that folder for these messages,
>> or you MAY (I'm not an expert on this) be able to create a filter in
>> Gmail to deliver them to some other folder, assuming Gmail filters trump
>> `spam`. For purposes of filtering, these messages are
>>
>> From: mailman@
>> To: -owner@
>> Subject: Bounce action notification
>>
> 
> Previously, i.e. 6 months ago I was getting these notifications just fine
> through my Gmail account. This tells me that the list config is correct. I
> can't explain why these went from no bounce notifications only unsubscribe
> to now being sent to SPAM folder. Seems like Google is mucking about with
> its filters!


Probably so, but you can't control that. It may have to do with the
specific content of the notices or not. You could try setting up a gmail
filter on some of the above the put the message in another folder, or
just check your spam folder often.


>> If I had to guess though, the next most likely thing after DMARC is the
>> sending server was blacklisted by some recipient domains.
>>
> 
> This is what I was afraid of. Is there any way of confirming or denying
> that this is happening. ISP guy complained about having to tell Yahoo the
> mail server was a mail list and not SPAM. This would tell me that it was a
> blacklist problem.
> 
> So how does an ISP keep their mail server OFF of the SPAM blacklist?


This is all up to the ISP. They can see in their mail logs if they are
being blocked and if they are competent, they will notice that and do
whatever need to be done to get the blocks removed.

The only thing you can do is report to the ISP if you get a bounce
notice that indicated the sending IP is blocked.

I suggest you ensure that all the notifications including
bounce_notify_owner_on_bounce_increment are set to Yes and monitor your
spam folder so you will at least be aware of any issue before user's
delivery is disabled.


-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Mailing List Bounce Issues

[steve lund]

Mark,



On Mon, Feb 1, 2021 at 12:05 PM Mark Sapiro  wrote:

> On 2/1/21 6:07 AM, steve lund wrote:
> >
> > I don't believe that the ISP changed the list configuration recently. So
> if
> > this is NOT a DMARC issue then any other thought as to what it could be?
>
>
> DMARC mitigations are list settings set by the list admin (you) via the
> web admin UI, not by the ISP.
>

Found  that page. It was set to Munge.



>
> > Also remember that for some unexplained reason I, as the list manager,
> > didn't receive the intervening bounce messages either. I don't know if
> > these tripped Gmail's "throw it out" SPAM filter or something else
> > happened.
>
>
> Go to the web admin UI Bounce Processing page. Are all the notifications
> set to Yes? If so, and you are not receiving The notification on disable
> or the notification on bounce increment if that is on, and your address
> is correct for owner on the General Options page, then see below.
>
>
> > While troubleshooting this the ISP guy subscribed one of his bogus email
> > addresses to the list to see if I would get the bounce messages. So far I
> > did get one of them but Gmail put it in my SPAM box. I drug the message
> to
> > my Forums tab where hopefully when it happens again I will see it.
>
>
> So it seems the notices are being sent and delivered to your spam
> folder. You will need to regularly check that folder for these messages,
> or you MAY (I'm not an expert on this) be able to create a filter in
> Gmail to deliver them to some other folder, assuming Gmail filters trump
> `spam`. For purposes of filtering, these messages are
>
> From: mailman@
> To: -owner@
> Subject: Bounce action notification
>

Previously, i.e. 6 months ago I was getting these notifications just fine
through my Gmail account. This tells me that the list config is correct. I
can't explain why these went from no bounce notifications only unsubscribe
to now being sent to SPAM folder. Seems like Google is mucking about with
its filters!



> These notices contain a copy of the bounce DSN and are the only way
> short of MTA logs that you will know why the messages are bouncing.
>
> If I had to guess though, the next most likely thing after DMARC is the
> sending server was blacklisted by some recipient domains.
>

This is what I was afraid of. Is there any way of confirming or denying
that this is happening. ISP guy complained about having to tell Yahoo the
mail server was a mail list and not SPAM. This would tell me that it was a
blacklist problem.

So how does an ISP keep their mail server OFF of the SPAM blacklist?

Thanks,
Steve





> --
> Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Mailing List Bounce Issues

[Mark Sapiro]

On 2/1/21 6:07 AM, steve lund wrote:
> 
> I don't believe that the ISP changed the list configuration recently. So if
> this is NOT a DMARC issue then any other thought as to what it could be?


DMARC mitigations are list settings set by the list admin (you) via the
web admin UI, not by the ISP.


> Also remember that for some unexplained reason I, as the list manager,
> didn't receive the intervening bounce messages either. I don't know if
> these tripped Gmail's "throw it out" SPAM filter or something else
> happened.


Go to the web admin UI Bounce Processing page. Are all the notifications
set to Yes? If so, and you are not receiving The notification on disable
or the notification on bounce increment if that is on, and your address
is correct for owner on the General Options page, then see below.


> While troubleshooting this the ISP guy subscribed one of his bogus email
> addresses to the list to see if I would get the bounce messages. So far I
> did get one of them but Gmail put it in my SPAM box. I drug the message to
> my Forums tab where hopefully when it happens again I will see it.


So it seems the notices are being sent and delivered to your spam
folder. You will need to regularly check that folder for these messages,
or you MAY (I'm not an expert on this) be able to create a filter in
Gmail to deliver them to some other folder, assuming Gmail filters trump
`spam`. For purposes of filtering, these messages are

From: mailman@
To: -owner@
Subject: Bounce action notification

These notices contain a copy of the bounce DSN and are the only way
short of MTA logs that you will know why the messages are bouncing.

If I had to guess though, the next most likely thing after DMARC is the
sending server was blacklisted by some recipient domains.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Monthly notifications bounce, are sent without DKIM signature.

[Mark Sapiro]

On 2/1/21 1:58 AM, Johannes Rohr wrote:
> 
> I get a batch of bounces once a month from GMail, when mailman sends out
> the monthly reminders.
> 
> When I look into the headers of those notifications, it looks like they
> miss the DKIM signature, which is super weird, because the notification
> about the bounce that mailman sends to the listowner has a DKIM
> signature. I wonder what is going wrong there. My understanding is that
> the signing is done by rspamd and that mailman doesn't have anything to
> do with it. Why aren't all messages signed?


As you note, Mailman has nothing to do with DKIM signing of outgoing
mail. Your outgoing MTA does it, probably by invoking some milter. It
could be rspamd or something else. You have to look at the
configuration. If you are using rspamd's DKIM signing module, see
.

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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Mailing List Bounce Issues

[steve lund]

Mark,



On Mon, Feb 1, 2021 at 12:18 AM Mark Sapiro  wrote:

> On 1/31/21 6:42 PM, steve lund wrote:
> > Tom,
> >
> > Good point. It has been a LONG time since I wandered into attempting to
> > read email headers. Here is a sample header from the list that recently
> had
> > the domain related bounce issue Let me know if you see anything that is
> > mis-configured. BTW, the ISP is going to switch to the current Mailman
> > version 3 fairly soon. I don't know if this is going to help  the
> situation
> > or not.
>
>
> Probably not.
>
>
>
> 
>
> ...
> > From: Donald Belk via MSing-ride 
> > Reply-To: Donald Belk 
>
> And the From: is munged by the list and the original From: added to
> Repty-To:
>
>
> So this list is Munging From: headers, and if that was the case when the
> bounces occurred (maybe 3 weeks before the unsubscribes), the bounces
> probably weren't for DMARC reasons.
>

I don't believe that the ISP changed the list configuration recently. So if
this is NOT a DMARC issue then any other thought as to what it could be?

Also remember that for some unexplained reason I, as the list manager,
didn't receive the intervening bounce messages either. I don't know if
these tripped Gmail's "throw it out" SPAM filter or something else
happened.

While troubleshooting this the ISP guy subscribed one of his bogus email
addresses to the list to see if I would get the bounce messages. So far I
did get one of them but Gmail put it in my SPAM box. I drug the message to
my Forums tab where hopefully when it happens again I will see it.

Thanks,
Steve
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[Mailman-Users] Monthly notifications bounce, are sent without DKIM signature.

[Johannes Rohr]

Dear all,

I get a batch of bounces once a month from GMail, when mailman sends out
the monthly reminders.

When I look into the headers of those notifications, it looks like they
miss the DKIM signature, which is super weird, because the notification
about the bounce that mailman sends to the listowner has a DKIM
signature. I wonder what is going wrong there. My understanding is that
the signing is done by rspamd and that mailman doesn't have anything to
do with it. Why aren't all messages signed?

Cheers,

Johannes





Am 27.01.21 um 20:11 schrieb Mark Sapiro:
> On 1/26/21 5:57 PM, steve lund wrote:
>> We seem to be having all too frequent occurrences of multiple bounces that
>> seem to be related only to the domain of the address recipient.
>
> As pointed out in another reply, this is likely a DMARC issue and MM
> 2.1.34 has settings to mitigate this.
>
>
>> The interesting thing about this occurrence other than losing the name
>> associated with the email address (since the members were unsubscribed not
>> just disabled) is that I NEVER received ANY bounce notifications other than
>> the unsubscribe notification. I find this quite odd and unsettling
>> considering that the list shows that it IS configured to send earlier
>> bounce notifications and I have received them in the past... just not
>> leading up to this latest incident. The typical error message is:
>>
>> jonxx_daj...@yahoo.com  has been removed from
>> MSing-ride. (disabled address)
>
> That occurred after the users delivery was disabled by bounce and the
> notices to the user were exhausted. When the delivery was first
> disabled, (three weeks earlier with default bounce settings) there was a
> notice sent to the list admins about the disable if the list's admin
> Bounce processing -> bounce_notify_owner_on_disable setting is Yes.
>
> Also, you can set Bounce processing ->
> bounce_notify_owner_on_bounce_increment to Yes to be sent a notice when
> a bounce is received that increments the score.
>
> If one or both of these settings is Yes and you aren't receiving the
> notices, that's between Mailman's MTA and you.
>
>
>> So I guess that my question is whether or not these types of problems are
>> now endemic to all email lists or ifOur ISP is technically "challenged"
>> and
>>
>> 1. Doesn't know how to properly configure Mailman to send out the requested
>> notifications.
>
> Since you got the unsub notice, I'd expect that all requested notices
> have been sent.
>
>
>> 2. Continues to get blacklisted for sending SPAM even though they don't.
>
> What are your settings under Privacy options... -> Sender filters for
> dmarc_moderation_action and dmarc_quarantine_moderation_action? at a
> minimum, they should be Munge From and Yes respectively.
>
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