[Mailman-Users] Re: What is character set of the log files?

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

Hi!

On 27/05/2020 01:08, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 5/26/20 4:30 PM, Brett Delmage wrote:
[...]
>> What is the character set coding for the log files, please?
>> I'm using MM 2.1.29
> 
> Basically unknown. For the most part, log files are us-ascii, but some
> entries contain user entered data such as names or (malformed) email

If the user enters his name in a HTML form with e.g. German umlauts,
it should be UTF-8 encoded, not?

MfG,
Bernd
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Re: [Mailman-Users] [Mailman-cabal] GDPR

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

On Mon, 2018-05-14 at 16:54 -0600, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users
wrote:
[...]
> On 05/14/2018 04:11 PM, Bernd Petrovitsch wrote:
> > Seriously, these folks don't know what they imply.
> 
> Nope.  Politicians (almost) never fully understand what's going on.

FWIW and IMHO, I think we are in violent agreement here.

[...]
> Who's at fault in this scenario:  The person who overheard what I said
> (the archive) or me for saying it in a non-secure manner (the sender)?

In the old-school life: the sender (because s/he said it on her/his
free will) - I hope;-).
But the person who overheard it may tell the story to a third person.
And it's just/only hear-say - even if it's actually 100% correct (which
it is almost never ever the case). And there starts actually the real
"forgetting" or "doubts" ...

But in a "everything is written" world, that is massively different: In
the old-school world, a "written proof" had a quite large value because
it wasn't trivial to have such a thing.
Nowadays - with almost every communication over the Internet - it's the
normal, that there is a "written proof" aka recorded/logged/whatever.

I'm not diving into differences of "how some judge may value some so-
called proof" in some given (somewhat Western) country, but most people
- even in Spring 2018 - don't realize, what's really going on and try
to get back the world from the 1960s (or so;-) - well, "thinking before
talking" was always a hard job;-)

> Is there any legal method that I can use to compel a person to
> forget=20
> what they overheard me say?

A court order may "force" you to not tell it to anyone but it can't
make you forget it (or write it down and hide it somewhere safe).

So in general: No. And that's exactly the problem with the "right to be
forgotten".

> > For the author's rights side to it: I answer an email (and happen
> > to quote just the relevant parts of other emails) to a public
> > mailinglist with a public archive.
> > 
> > I don't think that the archive's admin or anyone else should have
> > the right (let alone the duty) to edit or change my email in there
> > - or even worse: remove it completely.
> 
> I disagree.
> 
> I believe that the admins / owners of the archive have the right to
> remove something from the archive (or prevent it from going into the
> archive in the first place).

Of course.
But only for (somewhat obvious) very good (including legal) reason like
really hard law issues like - at least in .at and .de - Nazi stuff
and/or (everywhere I hope) certain forms of pr0n.

But for some claims of "please remove my email address?"?
If that email address can be found (via Google) on hundreds of sites,
the removal of one instance doesn't change anything.
Ooops, and a chicken-egg problem 

> I don't believe that admins / owners have the general right to modify
> what was said.

ACK.

> I do believe that the admins / owners have the right to modify what was
> said in very specific cases, like REDACTING something.  As long as they

That question should be answered by some copyright/authors right
lawyer.

> do so in a manner that is clearly identifiable that something was REDACTED.

ACK.

> After all, it is their system, they administer / own it and can do
> what ever they want to with it.

Yes, and everyone writes that in the mailinglists charta (including
that all mails go into a public archive, are never edited, censored,
deleted, etc.).
Just from that point of view, everyone sending mails to the mailinglist
has implicitly agreed to the rules including the publication in a
Google-indexed archive.

BTW: I cannot do *everything* I want with it because I cannot choose to
plain simply ignore modification requests from a court.

> They should go out of their way to not misrepresent what you said /
> did.
> 
> They could also claim that your message was modified before it got to
> them.

Everyone can claim a lot of things - the hard question is how to proove
it;-)

> > PS: The whole "right to be forgotten" idea is absurd per se - think
> > about private archives (and I don't think about 3-letter
> > organizations only).
> > Can't we define the public archive to be an necessary and important
> > part of a public mailinglist and be done with it?!  For almost
> > everyone else some "important reason" is good enough too.
> 
> I feel like the idea that you can compel someone to forget something
> is absurd.
> 
> I think you can compel businesses to no longer use your contact
> information.

Any serious business won't send me any "newsletters" if I request that
without any legal backing (if 

Re: [Mailman-Users] [Mailman-cabal] GDPR

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

Hi all!

On Mon, 2018-05-14 at 12:33 +, Andrew Hodgson wrote:
[...]
> These are just rough notes:
> 
> - Archive purge requests. We have discussed the same items as on the
> list to date.  I am looking at doing a simple grep for the relevant
> person's details and changing that.  The main reason for doing this
> is that if we just remove the author's messages they will be in a
> thread of other messages and our users typically don't remove quoted
> material.  Current advice from the GDPR people is we may have to
> delete the whole thread.  Still under discussion, this is also 

While at it, why not delete the entire archive just to be sure? SCNR


Seriously, these folks don't know what they imply.

And to be honest: If person X fullquotes and the email ends in an
archive, who's fault is it?

Obviously the archive's (or more it's owners), not?

For the author's rights side to it: I answer an email (and happen to
quote just the relevant parts of other emails) to a public mailinglist
with a public archive.
I don't think that the archive's admin or anyone else should have the
right (let alone the duty) to *edit* or *change* *my* email in there -
or even worse: *remove* it completely.

MfG,
Bernd

PS: The whole "right to be forgotten" idea is absurd per se - think
about private archives (and I don't think about 3-letter
organizations only).
Can't we define the public archive to be an *necessary* and
*important* part of a public mailinglist and be done with it?!
    For almost everyone else, some "important reason" is good enough
too.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] [Mailman-cabal] GDPR

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

Hi all!

On 12/05/18 22:48, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
> On 05/12/2018 02:39 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
>> It would be a much more annoying matter if they claimed the right to
>> be deleted from third party posts that quoted and identified them,
>> though. If there is a "right to be forgotten" that impinges on mailing
>> list archives, that seems plausible to me, though who knows what the

Well, it's the very nature of an archive that everything stays there
(similar to a backup).

>> High Court would rule.
> 
> I wonder if the entire post (and any partial / quoted copies) must be
> deleted or if it is sufficient to modify them so that they do not
> reflect the author but still retain (non-PII) content.  That would be

The other aspect of a mailing list archive is that one can find it and
may want to ask the original author something about the issue there.

On the other hand deleting the mail address (on the mail server side by
the author) also kills that communication line.

One other thing: And if someone (as a current or former mailing list
member) has the right to get the email address, name and signature
removed in one mail, does the mailing list admin has the right to delete
*all* the instances or only the actively requested/mentioned ones?
And what about other mail addresses of the same person?

> less of a negative impact on archives.
> 
> God forbid if blockchain was used on the archive.  }:-)

Does anyone know how the "blockckain is the solution to everything"
faction handles these issues?
It's not that they can ignore that either - if only to discuss the
question how personal the wallet address (or whatever it is called) is.

Or can we kill the whole problem by using a blockchain for a mailinglist
archive archive?

MfG,
Bernd
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Re: [Mailman-Users] "Prevent" Reply-all

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

Hi!

On Tue, 2016-10-25 at 21:46 +, Ryan C Stasel wrote:
[...]
> User A send message to list. List members get the mail, but it
> “appears” to be from User A and not from the list. So a Reply and 

And the mail actually *was* from user A - it was just replicated and
distributed to many others via the mailinglist (software).

> Reply-all both do the same thing. To really reply-all, users would
> have to physically type in the mail list address into their To or CC
> fields. 

The "reply-all" button in - TTBOMK - all MUAs does this and the "List-
Reply" button in the better ones does this too: grab the appropriate
addresses from the headers and use them for the reply. That's actually
the definition of them IMHO.

Do you use "Reply-To-Munging"? If yes, you actually want to *not* *do*
reply-to-munging so the (simple) "reply" button goes just to the
address in the From: header.

Personally: And *if* people press "reply-to-all", they may actually
want it and what software can decide based on which criteria that they
actually do not want it?

> Is this possible (short of re-educating our users about how “reply-
> all” really isn’t appropriate in most cases)?

No - Email and mailing lists are just tools (just like a hammer) and if
people use them wrong, it's not the job of the hammer to decide if he
should hit or not hit the nail - even if the hammer could decide that a
finger is in between.

Since on one (else) complains via the mailinglist (otherwise you would
have mentioned it IMHO) that "thank you" mails should be private, it
probably bothers no one really.

It's IMHO also a thing for the mailinglist charta, if "thank you" mails
(and similar) are actually wanted/encouraged or "only private,
otherwise it bandwidth and archive space waste".

And some people may actually think that saying "thank you" in public is
actually a good thing - even if it's only just the education;-)

Kind regards,
Bernd
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Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

On Don, 2015-03-19 at 17:45 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
[...]

also +1 for the "quote only relevant and answer inline directly below
it" style - an email is written once and read (hopefully;-) more often
so it is actually extremely unfriendly (because time killing) to all
others to make a mail not as simple and easy readable as possible to
save everybody's time (otherwise people might not even read the mail
past line 2 and after a few of this mails, one might remember the
"\seen" - if not worse - flag in the sieve script).

> And some people on the list continue to insist that they like top
> posting with full quoting because they only have to read the latest post
> in a thread (albeit from the bottom up), even though it's been pointed

They seem to read only a few mails a day and the contents must be quite
simple.
Otherwise one - at least me - really needs to know the context and which
aspect of the quoted/original mail is actually meant/answered.

> out to them multiple times that threads are trees and even if everyone
> quotes everything, any particular leaf only contains the posts on that
> branch.
> 
> Top posting with full quoting is also encouraged by MUAs like Gmail's
> web client that hide the quoted material unless you ask for it.

The various Outlooks have the same design fault - especially as it's the
default behaviour.

> I do understand that in some business situations (contract negotiations,
> attorney/client communication and the like), it is useful and pretty
> much demanded that each message contain the full transcript of what went
> before, but this has no place on an email discussion list.

Well, I store such possibly important mails (ans MLs usually have
archives somewhere) so full-quoting everything on every mail is pretty
pointless (and in some "commercial" situations one would archive every
mail automatically anyways ...).

And most people make no difference on the situations and/or
circumstances (like in "I always sent mail in this way so it must be
correct!").

In lots of proprietary/hidden "environments" people actually do not
think about the information flow and solve lots of problems (not all!)
with MLs but just sent mail to (presumed) involved people.
And if a new one is included, one - or more all of them - have the
excuse to have always full-quoted/top-posted everything.
The real fun starts if such mails leave the company and the outside gets
knowledge on who is really involved on the other side and factual
internal details 

Kind regards,
Bernd
-- 
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on typing is not a good reason - if your typing speed is the main
issue when you're coding, you're doing something seriously wrong."
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Re: [Mailman-Users] how to get "my letter is opened" information without Delivery or read receipts are being checked

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

Hi!

First, do not hijack threads.

On Mon, 2012-04-16 at 14:02 +0200, Gulyás Krisztián wrote:
[...]
> I would like to send html-formatted e-mails to my customers through mailman
> mailing list. I would like to know of each recepients whether they've read
> my letter or not. If I use Delivery or read receipts, the recepient can
> decide he / she sends me the receipts or not. But I need this information in
> all cases.

Are you building lists of actually read email addresses?
Guess what I'm thinking right now .

> Have you any ideas?

Generally, don't do it because just someone "opened" the mail, it
doesn't imply that s/he read it. And reading it doesn't imply the s/he
understands it.
So what do you want to do with that information?

> I would use an image tag for it, with an online source. The source would be
> a php webpage and variables (letter id, recepient id) would be given to that
> page by the letter (or Outlook, etc.) For example:  src='http://exapmle.com/?u=%userid%&l=%letterid%' alt="" width="1"
> height="1"> When a user opens my letter, the php page would receive these
> variables and it would store the "opened" information in a database by the
> letter and recepient id.

Some people (including me) do not read HTML-Mails (but only plain/text),
also for that reason.

Kind regards,
Bernd
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Autoresponder and privacy

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

Hi!

On Mit, 2011-04-06 at 08:24 +0100, Clare Redstone wrote:
[...] 
> Thank you for replying so quickly. I don't understand some of the technical
> stuff to understand why 
> the autoresponder message came to me not the group. But am glad it did!

The mail headers are set up so that these type of mails do not go on the
mailing list. E.g. consider the case that an email address vanishes and
is still subscribed. You don't want the bounce on the ML too.

> Because we're a discussion group, I have MM set up for reply to the list.

That's an entirely different discussion but the standard answer is:
please read
http://marc.merlins.org/netrants/reply-to-harmful.html,
http://www.metasystema.net/essays/reply-to.html and
http://woozle.org/~neale/papers/reply-to-still-harmful.html and think
about it.

[...] 
> > That's probably true, but if list lurkers choose to use broken
> >autoresponders that may reveal their address to a list poster and are

If I really want only to lurk, I wouldn't use an autoresponder at
all ...

> >upset about that, that's really their problem. What do they do about
> >all the spam they autorespond to? Do they care about that?
> 
> I don't think most people know that autoresponders can be broken. I didn't

Unfortunately many people at MSFT also do not know it - the one from
MS-Outlook, MS-OE or Exchange - or wherever that is from - is seriously
broken (as in replying to "Precedence: List" Mails and especially
replying to the very same address each time, possibly multiple times a
day. For me, that is just another class of spam. Greetings to my
Bayes-DB ).

> until I started running the list and began reading majordomo and mailman
> users group. And it probably doesn't cross their minds that the
> autoresponder is replying to spam. Maybe because work email systems seem to
> trawl out so much spam. In any case, there's nothing they can do about that

They probably do not get much spam - especially if they primarily lurk
on the public internet and have somewhat sane spam-filters (read: sane
postmasters) at work.

> apart from telling their IT dept when becoming aware of it. At work, you
> have to have an out of office message when you're away.
> 
> I will suggest this person tells her IT dept.

Good luck. The standard answer is that it can't be changed within the
classical MSFT mail infrastructure (except not using the autoresponder.
Actually I do not know why it is important to people to let everyone
know, that you are 2 days out of office. If it's not that urgent, it can
wait anyways. If it is that urgent, I should - or more must - have done
something before to handle these urgent cases.).

[ Full quote deleted. ]

Bernd
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

On Don, 2009-12-17 at 17:04 -0800, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
> Lots of it depends on the MTA (general opinion is that postfix seems to be 
> the fastest), connectivity, and list settings (personalized email will take 
Do I take the flame bait?;-)

Whatever you understand in detail under a "fast MTA" (and even if it
would be the case), it doesn't really matter IMHO because
a) Email/SMTP never was anywhere near "realtime" (though many people
   expect mails to be delivered in seconds),
b) if your local Internet connection is too small, it doesn't help to
   have the fastest MTA[0],
c) the local MTA resolves various hostnames and that could be "slow" and
   will involved timeouts (where every MTA out there just can wait)[0],
d) if your hardware (RAM, disks) are too small or slow, the MTA really
   can't do anything (and I expect all widespread MTAS to reasonably
   minimize the I/O and memory anyways). That may be irrelevant on the
   usual small mailserver with average nowadays hardware but if you have
   e.g. a small ISP with >25K mailboxes and (on the average) 1E6 mails
   per day ("after" using DNSBLs blocking lots of spam/viruses before
   even sending "EHLO"), it
   looks quite different,
e) b) for the remote MTA - but you have absolutely no influence on the 
   remote side[0],
f) c) for the remote MTA - but you have absolutely no influence on the 
   remote side[0],
g) the remote MTA may do extensive spam/virus checking, grey-listing,
   ... - taking time - causing "slow" mail delivery you have absolutely
   no influence on the remote side[0].
Of course the timeouts and waiting from above cost next to no
resources/performance locally (so the MTA(s) usually deliver several
emails in parallel without any problems as long as the box(es) do not
trash) but it costs total time (which makes email delivery "slow").

So I don't think that saving 10% (or even 50%) local "speed" will make a
significant difference (perhaps if you have a *really* large setup - but
even then deploying one more box is cheaper than investing a day to
improve the local performance. OK, saving a box is better for the world
as such ).

Bernd

[0]: And changing the local MTA won't solve that.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Weird subject_prefix issue

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

On Don, 2009-10-01 at 14:12 -0300, Tammy George wrote: 
> We're running Mailman version 2.1.9.
> 
> We have a subject_prefix setup on list a...@xyz.com.  The subject_prefix
> shows up in all messages from all senders EXCEPT one sender.   The list
> is archived & the subject_prefix is on the message in the archive.   I
> can't find anything indicating this can be configured on the user level
> - just @ the list level.
>
> Has anyone seen this?

You have probably "Avoid duplicate copies of messages?" activated (for
your email address) and the user sent the mail directly to you and to
the list (like exactly this message). 

Bernd
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Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman passwords

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

Hi!

On Sam, 2009-05-09 at 12:51 -0700, bob 001 wrote:
[...]
> Do we have any setting where we can set maximum retries for wrong
> password before it locks the account or something like that?
> 
> isn't it otherwise easily breakable via bots by trying different
> passwords to the same web url.

Easily? see another mail.
The problem with such schemes is that it's quite easy to lock out
others: You get the email addresses from the archive and try unless it
fails.
At least it pisses of the list admin if he has to explicitly enabled
lots of accounts every other day .

> How'z experts here controlling this piece of security?

All of:
- Let people only login over https.
- Use really random passwords (and long - not only 8 characters). E.g.
  the "expect" package has a `mkpasswd` program to generate such.
- Depending on the security situation of your laptop/desktop/..., most
  browsers allow you to let them remember the password for you. So
  you have to really enter it only the first time.

And a usual strategy is that you disable login for an account for one
second after the first wrong try. And after each other, you double the
time.
That "allows" the user to mistype a few times without any noticable
drawback - and after 3 failed attempts I usually hit the "send password"
button anyways.
And after some time the system forgets (or reduces) the number of failed
attempts.
The other - IMHO more effective - solution is to count attempts for each
IP address separately. But that may lead to a potential DoS attack
against the server (because one needs the space to store that. And
current bot/zombie nets are quite large and come in from lots of IP
addresses).
Hmm, perhaps having one counter per IP address (and use that one counter
for all IP address for all accounts) is good enough.
Or cumulate /24 or /28 nets (which allows the zombie-PC of your "IP
address neighbor" to disable your account).

Does such added security (if it actually is) outweighs the efforts and
risks given the possible damage (as outlined in another mail)?

Bernd
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Unsubscribing

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

On Die, 2008-07-01 at 16:39 +1000, Doug Laidlaw wrote:
> I am unsubscribing.  Thanks very much for helping with my inquiry, Mark.  The 
> other queries don't apply to me, and I can offer no help with them.
> 
> On my inquiry, one would think that an OS that wants to rule the world would 
> be compatible with the most popular mailing list software.  Oh, well...

You have to complain about this ("Mailman should run on Windows") to
MSFT.
But I don't think that is what you meant (or need).

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Promotion

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

On Fre, 2008-01-25 at 06:41 +, Khalil Abbas wrote:
> Now this is the most logical and reasonale answer I've ever got ..
> this is what I call: a reply from a professional.. she's right, I have
> no idea that this is spamming.. all I know about spamming is those who
> send you repeatedly every once in a while, and all I wanna do is send

The problem is: If a sequence of unwanted mail is "spam", then even the
first mail of that sequence is "spam".
Apart from laws (which quite are different in different jurisdictions
when it comes to "spam"), most people live with their own definition of
"spam". And a "newsletter" for marketing people may very will be "spam"
for techies.
Personally I consider every invitation (I stopped counting long ago...)
to whatever service/social network/... coming from unknown people/email
addresses as "spam".

>  a simple invite and that's all.. if this is spamming, then screw
> it .. I'm no programmer and no whiz.. somebody gave me this huge list
> of emails for money and said it will make people more aware of my site
> if I used it to invite them ..

Uh, I hope you didn't pay too much as most the addresses are probably
dead anyways (for one or the other reasons).
 
As for sending 1E6 emails[0] with mailman: mailman is probably the least
problem - it hands them over to whatever your local MTA[1] is. And the
MTA has the burden to deliver the mails.
And it makes no sense to implement e.g. a "sent at most 1 email per
second per destination domain" feature as the MTA afterwards may/will
(depending on configuration etc.) reorder it for whatever reason. That
time is better spent to tune your MTA[1].

As for "avoiding to be blacklisted": The blacklisting side defines the
rules if an IP-address (or whatever) is blacklisted. And these rules may
change over time 
So there can't be a (really working) magic "avoid being blacklisted"
check box somewhere.
In theory one could make such a check box for every blacklisting
organization but that's in practice a lot of work (initially and
ongoing) to not violate others "rules" and thus too expensive to be
commercially interesting.
And I really doubt that there are people out there who do such a thing
for free (as in "free beer").

> anyways, thanks cyndi.. I really appeciate your help ..
[] 
> anyways, no harm done..

[ Fullquote deleted ]

Bernd

[0]: There such large installations (without spam intention) out there -
 e.g. the linux-kernel mailing list has according to
 http://vger.kernel.org/vger-lists.html 4751 emails on it and sends
 200-300 emails per day. That makes 950200 to 1425300 mails per day.
 More "details" in http://lkml.org/lkml/2007/5/7/124 and the
 following discussion.
 LKML doesn't use mailman though.
[1]: as in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_transfer_agent
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Using your domain name

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

On Tue, 2007-12-04 at 15:09 -0800, Cyndi Norwitz wrote:
[...]
> I know I can edit some (all?) of these from the web interface.  And I've
> already set the reply-to field to my domain.  But I was wondering if there
> was a way to get it to change over all at once.  It would take hours to
> change it all manually for 4+ lists.

- Export the config for each list with `config_list -o file-name
listname`.
- Edit file-name - either with some texteditor or other tools.
- Import it again with `config_list -i file-name listname`.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Throttling output

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

On Tue, 2006-06-13 at 17:36 -0500, Brad Knowles wrote:
> At 11:38 PM +0200 2006-06-13, Bernd Petrovitsch wrote:
[...]
> >>You would also need to make sure that the first instance of
> >>  sendmail (or whatever MTA) is not configured to generate Delivery
> >>  Status Notices (DSNs) for delayed messages, because you know for a
> >>  fact that some messages are going to be delayed for a significant
> >>  period of time, and you don't want those kinds of warnings clouding
> >>  the picture for Mailman.
> >
> >  Of course. But the standard/usual delay of 4 hours or so should be large
> >  enough though (and I don't see a problem in raising that limit).
> 
>   I'm not convinced.  If you've got a list of 22,000 recipients and 
> a limit of 1000 recipients per hour, it's probably going to take a 
> lot longer than four hours to get out all those messages.

Sure. I calculated more mails per hour 

>   I do remain convinced that if you're trying to do throttling 
> because your provider requires it, that you are most definitely using 
> the wrong provider.

Of course.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Throttling output

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

On Tue, 2006-06-13 at 11:39 -0400, Steve Campbell wrote:
[...]
> Sounds great. In fact, this is sort of what the Milter people suggested 
> without the milter, although I didn't see where the throttling would occur.

First you throw the 22.000 mail in the mail queue. And the normal queue
run will deliver these emails + all others in the queue. So you probably
want to limit the queue runner anyways (say not more than 100 - or
whatever works good enough - concurrent processes delivering email).

So the throttling is done within the MTA - your host is delivering
"only" 100 emails in parallel. If every mail takes around 10s, you need
around 36 minutes to deliver (or at least try to) all emails. YMMV ...

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Throttling output

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

On Tue, 2006-06-13 at 10:18 -0500, Brad Knowles wrote:
> At 3:17 PM +0200 2006-06-13, Bernd Petrovitsch wrote:
> 
> >  On Tue, 2006-06-13 at 09:06 -0400, Steve Campbell wrote:
> >  [...]
> >>  Does anyone have a suggestion for throttling?
> >
> >  Just store the 22.000 outgoing mails in the mail queue (every decent MTA
> >  should be able to do that unconditionally) and wait for the next queue
> >  run?
> 
>   I think that this would require a second MTA instance -- the 

You want that probably anyway since you probably don't want your MTA
accept 22.000 emails on a public interface in one rush (and I actually
don't remember out of my head how mailman really inject mails. 1 mail
with a long list of rcpt-to:?).

> first instance of sendmail (or whatever MTA) would simply take 
> everything that Mailman gives it and then store that in the queue. 
> This would be different from a normal sendmail (or other MTA) 
> configuration, where immediate delivery would normally be attempted.

Yes. But "normally" you don't throw 22.000 emails at once on your MTA.
And if you do this "normally", you shouldn't need any throttling or
other special behaviour at all - just enough hardware.

>   Then, additional queue runners are called to start processing 
> that queue and pushing those messages out, but they go through an 
> additional instance of sendmail, where the throttling milter is used.

Just limit/throttle the MTA itself (sendmail has several options for
this like "number of proceses", etc. and I assume that other MTAs like
postfix, exim, qmail allow this too in similar ways).

>   You would also need to make sure that the first instance of 
> sendmail (or whatever MTA) is not configured to generate Delivery 
> Status Notices (DSNs) for delayed messages, because you know for a 
> fact that some messages are going to be delayed for a significant 
> period of time, and you don't want those kinds of warnings clouding 
> the picture for Mailman.

Of course. But the standard/usual delay of 4 hours or so should be large
enough though (and I don't see a problem in raising that limit).

>   And I'm sure there are other factors or issues to be considered, 
> although I haven't thought of any others off the top of my head.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Throttling output

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

On Tue, 2006-06-13 at 09:06 -0400, Steve Campbell wrote:
[...]
> Does anyone have a suggestion for throttling?

Just store the 22.000 outgoing mails in the mail queue (every decent MTA
should be able to do that unconditionally) and wait for the next queue
run?

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Different servers

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

On Wed, 2005-11-09 at 11:59 -0600, Benjamin Mack wrote:
> Hey everybody,
> 
> I got a difficult (for me) situation here:
> 
> I have a webserver with my domain and an outsourced mail server with a 
> company that set up my mail addresses (where I can create pop-accounts 
> through a web interface).
> 
> Lately I wanted to set up a mailman installation on my webserver, with a 
> mailing list like "[EMAIL PROTECTED]". But mailman requires an MTA on 
> the system, but since the MTA for my domain is on another (for me not 
> configurable) mail server, I would just like to have something like this 
> on my webserver, since I do not want an extra mailserver there:
> 
> * a program checks periodically for new messages on the pop-account and 
> then forwards it to the mailman

fetchmail is doing this. Just start it every 5 minutes with cron.
fetchmail pops the mails from the pop3 server and feeds it to the local
MTA which must handle mails for the domain correctly, of course.

I don't know if there is a simpler solution for fetchmail+mailman.

> * mailman evaluates and adds it to the list.
> * outgoing mails from mailman are going through the already installed 
> default config sendmail

You probably have to check and possibly let sendmail rewrite header
fields correctly so that the From: etc. are correct.
AFAIK see now it should work if the mailman machine actually feels
responsible for the kirix.com domain as a whole (and perhaps for others
too) - it just doesn't receive mails from the eth interface.
For local users you could forward local email to the pop-server via
normal aliases.

Alternatively you could simply relay all outgoing mails of kirix.com
through the external mailserver and the external mailserver rewrites
header and envelope addresses.

> Has anybody experienced with that? Or is this something like a "don't do 
> that"-thing since I did not find manuals for that kind of situation? 

The problem is not really a mailman problem (or closely related) but
more a "several MTAs problem".

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Re: [Mailman-Users] ISO-8859-1/Latin1 vs UTF-8

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

Sorry for wrong threading but I accidentally deleted the last email
here:
> One reason is that the server may very well translate the encoding
> based on negotiation with the client.  (I guess you could argue that

Yes, but *if* the encoding is negotatied, a default value makes not that
much sense (apart from the situation that absolutely no negotiation takes
place).

> it should remove the charset attribute from the META tag if it does.)

Technically: *If* the webserver hands out a file and tells explicitly
it's encoding, it must have it right. If that means "parse the .html
file, find appropriate headers, convert the file and rewrite all
relevant headers etc." than he absolutely must do it.
At least in Apache (1 and 2) there is ATM no mechanism in there which
tries to do that AFAIK.

And you are right with the unquoted part: A default makes here absolutely
no sense.

> A second reason is that admins will occasionally translate encodings
> and not even be aware that some users who are too smart for their own
> good have used META tags.

Well, but the real reason for the problem is somewhere else - namely in
between the admin and the users. And we have probably now the situation
that most of the .html producing users and tools are dumb ebough to
actually need such crazy options 

BTW I wonder why there are no "check the files on a webspace" scripts
out there which simply check this ...

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Re: [Mailman-Users] ISO-8859-1/Latin1 vs UTF-8

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

On Mon, 2005-10-24 at 14:05 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Bernd Petrovitsch wrote:
> >I actually reported a bug (though it may not sound so): I enter
> >(apparently) UTF-8 text (with Firefox it that is important) and it comes
> >back disguised (and as part of) ISO-8859-1 text.
> >The question is: Which part is doing something wrong and how to fix it?
> 
> What happens here is that Mailman creates the web page with the META
> tag in the header
> 
> 
> 
> where  is the encoding of the language of the list (default
> iso-8859-1 for German), but the web server sends its own http
> Content-Type: header specifying charset=utf-8. For reasons I don't
> understand, the HTML standard says the server provided Content-Type:
> charset takes priority over that specified by an HTML META tag.

I don't understand it either but it is so. BTW I usually disable the
feature in the webserver config.

> Thus your browser sets it's encoding as utf-8, but mailman thinks what
> it gets back is iso-8859-1 and thus garbles the multibyte unicode
> sequences.
> 
> It can be fixed by setting the 'German' character set to utf-8 and
> recoding the German language templates, messages and list archives in
> utf-8 as discussed in the archive threads I mentioned previously.

Done. I have now a German and an English template both specifying UTF-8
as charset *and* UTF-8 text in there (especially in the German one).
But the crazy thing ist that the English page is - according to "Page
Info" in Firefox and on the shell with `wget --post-data="language=de"
-S https://lists.funkfeuer.at/mailman/listinfo/user` - delivered as
"UTF-8" and the German one as "ISO-8859-1" as you (and everybody else)
can see on  https://lists.funkfeuer.at/mailman/listinfo/user.
The German summary on both pages has been entered through the web
interface of the list administrator.

> Alternatively, it can be addressed in the web server by configuring it
> so it doesn't specify these documents as utf-8.

This is IMHO the case.
  snip  
711#grep AddDef /etc/apache2/apache2.conf
AddDefaultCharset   off
  snip  

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Help!

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

On Wed, 2005-10-26 at 10:55 -0700, Jim & Marlowe Futrell wrote:
[...]
> We use this software and continue to get the following error message 
> (see below).  Is there anything that can be adjusted in order to send 
> larger messages?

Yes.

>  Also, we can not send messages with attached files.  What can we do
>  to rectify this situation?

Set the limit for emails higher (or put the large attacjments on a
Webserver and mail the URL).

[...]
> Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval.
> 
> The reason it is being held:
> 
> Message body is too big: 50802 bytes with a limit of 40 KB

What may this message mean?

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Re: [Mailman-Users] ISO-8859-1/Latin1 vs UTF-8

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

On Mon, 2005-10-24 at 09:52 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
[...]
> As Brad points out in another reply, some of this problem is because
> all text entered in the web interface (except for General
> Options->info which is a special case) is HTML escaped to prevent XSS
> attacks. Mailman arguably goes overboard on this, but the 4 characters

Which is a good thing.

> '&' '<' '>' and '"' are changed respectively to &, <, > and
> " by Python's cgi.escape() method.

Makes sense.
Hmm, mailman could replace that four chars with the ASCII chars just for
plain/text parts od sent out emails. That should not open any security
hole and yield real plain/text.

> Thus, you can't even enter ö and have it work in HTML or plain
> text.

Yes, of course, these are two distinct issues. Sorry for confusion.

> You can convert Mailman to use utf-8 for German language, but this will
> not solve the html escaping issue. If you are interested in converting
> to utf-8, there is relevant information in the archives of this list.

I actually reported a bug (though it may not sound so): I enter
(apparently) UTF-8 text (with Firefox it that is important) and it comes
back disguised (and as part of) ISO-8859-1 text.
The question is: Which part is doing something wrong and how to fix it?

Bernd
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Re: [Mailman-Users] ISO-8859-1/Latin1 vs UTF-8

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

On Mon, 2005-10-24 at 12:52 +0200, Hannah Schroeter wrote:
[...]
> On Sun, Oct 23, 2005 at 11:58:37PM +0200, Bernd Petrovitsch wrote:
> >Apparently all of the German translation of Mailman is in ISO-8859-1 (or
> >ISO-8859-15) - at least in the standard Debian mailman package.
> 
> >Is there a special reason for not moving to UTF-8 in general?
> 
> I'd say: YAGNI (Ya ain't gonna need it). If the charset is declared

If I don't need it, I do not care.

> correctly, it isn't worse for German text. And it has less overhead
> then.

The problem is that I enter text in the web-interface on a default UTF-8
system and it is apparently stored as UTF-8. The pages are delivered as
ISO-8859-1 according to the HTTP  header and the header in the file.
So the CGI scripts actually should convert correctly the ML-admins data
from the given charset into ISO-8859-1 (which is not 100% possible but
for German and in practice it will be good enough IMO).
The other solution is to use ö and brothers and blame the ML admin
if he doesn't do so (and put in somwhere into the docs or so).

There is BTW a similar problem: If I enter " (quotes) in the web
interface, they are converted to " (probably by the browser - I
didn't check) and then sent out in a plain/text email.

So in both cases I actually want to know what the way to go is.

Bernd
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[Mailman-Users] ISO-8859-1/Latin1 vs UTF-8

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

Apparently all of the German translation of Mailman is in ISO-8859-1 (or
ISO-8859-15) - at least in the standard Debian mailman package.

Is there a special reason for not moving to UTF-8 in general?

Bernd
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Disable Subscriptions/Unsubscriptions

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

On Sun, 2005-10-23 at 21:23 +0200, Hannah Schroeter wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 23, 2005 at 09:11:00PM +0200, Bernd Petrovitsch wrote:
> >Hi all!
> 
> >Is there a possibility to disable the member subscription/unsubscription
> >through the web interface?
> >The list-members are added and removed with a script which is fed from a
> >DB so there is no point in self-subscription.
> 
> I don't know whether there's a specific knob in mailman itself, but

See the other answer - I'm just editing (copies of) the template files
(and it is actually only deleting ).

> you could either just not publish the list info address at all, or
> deny access to it, using appropriate web server configuration (access
> control or rewrite rules to show explanatory text instead).

Yes, that was my first idea: Rewrite the URL via Apache and show another
page instead.

Bernd
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Is mailman really this clever?

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

On Sun, 2005-10-23 at 17:41 -0400, Steve Burling wrote:
> Does mailman, as it's sending out list mail, check to see whether someone 
> it's about to send a copy to is also mentioned in the cc: field, and then 
> not send it to avoid duplicates?  I run a small mailman installation on a 
> home server, and just received only one copy of a message that was sent 
> both to a list I'm on and cc'd to me.  Looking through the MTA's logs, I 
> see the message going out to each of the recipients except me.
> 
> If this is really the way it works, that's cool...

The receiver can actually select on the options page if he/she wants to
gets duplicates or not.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] TypeError: cannot concatenate 'str' and 'NoneType'objects

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

On Sun, 2005-10-23 at 13:16 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Bernd Petrovitsch wrote:
> >I found 
> >http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2005-July/018161.html
> >and did what is described there and it doesn't help anything.
> >Any other idea?
> 
> Are you sure you didn't make a mistake or overlook something? Are you
> sure you did the offending list?

Actually Ißm fairly sure that I didn't but i'm completely new to python
as programming language

> If you forgot to do
[...]
> bin/dumpdb lists/listname/config.pck and see what you get for
> bounce_info.

Hmm, doing it one more time seems to work. So I must have done something
wrong before.

Sorry for bothering
Bernd
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[Mailman-Users] Disable Subscriptions/Unsubscriptions

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

Hi all!

Is there a possibility to disable the member subscription/unsubscription
through the web interface?
The list-members are added and removed with a script which is fed from a
DB so there is no point in self-subscription.

Bernd
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[Mailman-Users] TypeError: cannot concatenate 'str' and 'NoneType' objects

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

Hi!

I get the following on mailman-2.1.5 on Debian-Sarge:
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/cron/disabled", line 222, in ?
> main()
>   File "/usr/lib/mailman/cron/disabled", line 205, in main
> mlist.sendNextNotification(member)
>   File "/var/lib/mailman/Mailman/Bouncer.py", line 261, in 
> sendNextNotification
> msg['Subject'] = 'confirm ' + info.cookie
> TypeError: cannot concatenate 'str' and 'NoneType' objects

I found 
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2005-July/018161.html
and did what is described there and it doesn't help anything.
Any other idea?

Bernd
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

On Thu, 2004-02-05 at 23:09, Warren Woodward wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 05, 2004 at 08:55:26PM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote:
> > Do they prefer to have messages which they thought would be 
> > private replies being blasted to the whole list?
> 
> The reality of the modern, public internet is that the opposite is far
> more common -- right or wrong, in most common, public internet circles
> (I'm talking the far more prevelant "recipe sharing"-style lists, not "RFC
> management"-style lists), people have grown to accept as standard that in

The question is not "what is more convenient" but "what reduces the
damage of severe errors in replying".
And the default being list-reply is IMHO worse on errors than otherwise.

Bernd
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Large List Considerations

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

On Thu, 2004-02-05 at 22:28, Jon Carnes wrote:
[...]
> If however you find that messages spend a long time in the queue before
> being processed (or web-access to the list configuration is very slow to
> load) then you might want to consider putting aside some ram for use as
> a disk.  You can copy your ~mailman/lists/... to this RAM drive and
> mount it over the ~mailman/lists (then startup Mailman).  Access to the
> lists and configuration will then be much faster.
> 
> Note: the RAM drive *must* be at least twice the size as the data stored
> in it, so that Mailman can make backup copies of the config files while
> doing changes.

Which raises the question if simply adding the RAM to the system thus
increasing the disk cache (and not dedicated to just one part of the app
and - given the above description - wasting 50% of it almost completely,
not considering fault-tolerance and similar) won't be as good (if not
batter)´?

Bernd
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Reply to list

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

On Don, 2004-02-05 at 07:55, Mark Dadgar wrote:
> On Feb 4, 2004, at 10:35 PM, Thomas Hochstein wrote:
[...]
> > 
> 
> This is totally ridiculous.

No. Reply-To set to the list is evil (and for God's sake actually almost
no list I know of uses it).

> The document you reference is a long attempt at rationalizing why we 
> shouldn't bother to try to make mail systems Do The Right Thing.

It is up to the reader if he wants to reply to the list or the the
single poster. So you should have two buttons there: one for "reply"
which replies to the sender of the mail (which is the original sender
and not the maillist-mgr-software) and one for "list-reply" (if the mail
comes from a mailing list).

> The tool should fit the job and not the other way around.

Yes. Just choose a good MUA which supports you in doing your job.

> It's 2004.  Get over it.

Yes. And it should be clear that the user at the end gets the choice
(and not some overly-clever maillist admin in between interferes ).

Bernd
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[Mailman-Users] alias lists

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

Hi all!

How does one handle multiple From:-email-addresses for one person within
mailman?
With majordomo, there was a hack/patch to have a separate (possibly
site-wide) alias-mailinglist which is used for the list membership test
(and administered similar to an ordinary mailinglist), but never sent
mail to.

Thanks in advance
Bernd
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