RE: [Mailman-Users] Analysis of reasons for bounce responses

2003-08-03 Thread Christine De La Rosa
Thanks for the response JC.  I am checkig with exim and cpanel, to see
if they can at least point me in the right direction.

I checked my smtp-failure log in the mailman directory and are seeing
hundreds of these.

Aug 03 08:01:14 2003 (30019) delivery to [EMAIL PROTECTED] failed
with code 550: cannot route to sender address
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Aug 03 08:01:14 2003 (30019) delivery to [EMAIL PROTECTED] failed
with code 550: cannot route to sender address
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Aug 03 08:01:14 2003 (30019) delivery to [EMAIL PROTECTED] failed with
code 550: cannot route to sender address
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Aug 03 08:01:14 2003 (30019) delivery to [EMAIL PROTECTED] failed with
code 550: cannot route to sender address
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Aug 03 08:03:22 2003 (30019) delivery to [EMAIL PROTECTED] failed with code
550: cannot route to sender address 

Is this attached to the bounce backs I am getting which usually say 550
REQUESTED ACTION DNS Failure

Thanks for any help in advance

-Original Message-
From: JC Dill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 9:32 AM
To: Christine De La Rosa; 'Richard Barrett'
Cc: 'Mailman'
Subject: RE: [Mailman-Users] Analysis of reasons for bounce responses


At 09:30 PM 7/31/2003, Christine De La Rosa wrote:
>Hi Richard,
>
>Here is what I know so far, mail for most list members seem to be going

>through for the most part.  About two weeks ago MM mass unscribed about

>300 folx. Now we seem to have stablized the members but the owners of 
>the lists are getting routinely bounced.  Yahoo email address do not 
>have a problem, aol is a major headache as is hotmail.

This is a big clue that the MTA is improperly configured and is trying
to 
deliver to the AOL and Hotmail servers messages for more recipients than

those systems allow - triggering anti-spam filtering on the recipient
MTA 
at AOL and Hotmail.  The messages are then bounced.  My guess is that
they 
changed the MTA at around the same time they upgraded Mailman, and you
are 
barking up the wrong tree to try to find the source of the problem.

jc




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RE: [Mailman-Users] Analysis of reasons for bounce responses

2003-07-31 Thread Christine De La Rosa
Oh I forgot to add, that my dedicated is also a nameserver (domain.com)
with about 10 hosted domains (domain1.com, domain2.com...)

Chris

-Original Message-
From: Richard Barrett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 7:30 PM
To: Christine De La Rosa
Cc: 'Mailman'
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Analysis of reasons for bounce responses


Chris

On Friday, August 1, 2003, at 12:48  am, Christine De La Rosa wrote:

> This is the EXACT problem I am having with mailman, using cpanel and 
> exim.  I, however, am on a dedicated box and have root access.  I have

> been working on this problem for over three weeks.  I am tired and 
> frustrated and wishing I knew a little more about mailman and its 
> inner workings.

As I said in my post, this bounce issue is not, in my view, at heart a  
bug in Mailman. The evidence I saw of bounce notices from local MTA  
(Exim) say that the MTA is having problems getting outgoing mail off  
the system and finally bouncing it back to Mailman when it fails to do  
so.

If you are getting final bounce notices from Mailman when it disables a

subscriber because of these problems what is the reason reported in the

bounce message from the MTA, which should be attached to the bottom of  
the final bounce notification from MM? In the example final bounce  
notice passed to me for comment the MTA was reporting it was having an  
IP routing problem; that is hardly a Mailman generated problem as far  
as I can tell.

One of my problems with looking at this is I am trying to help out a  
fairly new user with a problem I have not seen on my systems, while I  
have no access to the Mailman or MTA logs on a system experiencing the  
problem. I have no standing with the CPanel owners to raise matters  
with them in case they are contributing to the problem with the way  
they set things up. Deeply frustrating.

Let me know if you gain any insight or information related to this.

> I come from a majordomo background.  When I got this dedicated server,

> it had mailman pre-installed so I thought kewl I will use it instead.

> It ran fabulously until cpanel did their last upgrade. I have been in 
> hell since then.
>
> I wish I could help you, but I have not been able to figure out even 
> from the logs what the issues are.  Granted, looking at the logs are 
> like gobbledigook to me.  So I have spent a lot of time searching the 
> archives for this problem.  Although, I haven't been able to find
> anyone
> with my specific issue.  I can tell you that qrunner has been
consuming
> my cpu at astonishing rates.

Mailman can consume large amounts of CPU when the MTA it is trying to  
hand mail over to repeatedly returns temporary failures. MM can be too  
aggressive in repeatedly trying to get the MTA to either accept or  
permanently fail the handover. There are changes in the Mailman CVS to  
moderate MM's efforts in this respect but so far as I know those  
changes are not available as a patch for MM 2.1.2 stable. This issue  
may be affecting you but I am no expert myself in setting up Exim so as

to avoid this undesirable interaction; I do not see it with my Sendmail

setup. There have been posts to mailman-users on the topic of high CPU  
utilisation. This one fromJon Carnes relates to Postfix MTA but its  
substance/recommendations may be applicable to Exim:

http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg17786.html

>  But there is no rhyme or reason to that,
> that I can see.  If I find anything out I will post it here.
>
> Chris
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On
> Behalf Of Richard Barrett
> Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 5:08 AM
> To: Mailman
> Subject: [Mailman-Users] Analysis of reasons for bounce responses
>
>
> This is not my problem but one soemone approached me about off list.
> I'll summarise their situation and I would appreciate any thoughts,
> comments, sanity checking on my analysis.
>
> Situation:
>
> 1. List admin's domain is hosted by a server run by a hosting company.
>
> 2. The server is (probably) running Linux
>
> 3. Mailman 2.1.2 is provided on the server with, I believe, CPanel
>
> 4. The server's MTA appears to be Exim 4.20 handling both incoming and
> outgoing messages to/from Mailman
>
> 5. Mailman list's basically work OK much of the time
>
> 6. Periodically messages out from Mailman are being bounced en masse
> leading to the subscriber accounts being disabled
>
> 7. The bounce response attached to the bounce action notice produced
by
>
> Mailman when subscribers are disabled in these circumstances is from
> the server local MTA. The MTA lists what appears to be all the
> addresses to which the outgoing message was sent with a note against
> each saying "unrouteable

RE: [Mailman-Users] Analysis of reasons for bounce responses

2003-07-31 Thread Christine De La Rosa
I checked my hosts file here it is

# Do not remove the following line, or various programs
# that require network functionality will fail.
127.0.0.1   alpha.domain2.com localhost
64.62.144.106   alpha.domain2.com localhost

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jon Carnes
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 10:47 PM
To: Todd
Cc: 'Mailman'
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Analysis of reasons for bounce responses


If anyone has sysadmin access to a server running CPanel, I would be
happy do some trouble-shooting on the problem.

>From the aggregate complaints it sounds like Cpanel has introduced an
error with Exim. It could be something as simple as a timeout value.

Are the servers also running a local DNS server - and set to resolve
using 127.0.0.1 as the primary nameserver? There are so many things that
could be a problem...

On Thu, 2003-07-31 at 20:43, Todd wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Christine De La Rosa wrote:
> > When I got this dedicated server, it had mailman pre-installed so I 
> > thought kewl I will use it instead.  It ran fabulously until cpanel 
> > did their last upgrade.  I have been in hell since then.
> 
> Unfortunately, I work on a site which is hosted using cPanel.  It's a 
> far cry from the problem free experience I have with my own mailman 
> installs which "just work."  When they finally did the upgrade to 
> 2.1.2, I had some immediate problems with bounces but then the server 
> admin applied an update from cPanel that seems to have fixed that.  I 
> don't know it the bounces were at all similar to what you're having, 
> but I mention it in case you haven't applied whatever updates cPanel 
> has pushed out.  It was either a mailman or exim update, I'm not sure 
> since I don't admin the box.
> 
> Of course, the cPanel upgrade to 2.1.2 also broke some virtual host 
> stuff for me that I have yet to get the host to work out.  I have 
> tried and tried to contact the folks at cPanel directly to find out 
> what patches they apply to mailman and request the sources for those 
> changes (as *required* by the
> GPL) to no avail.  They have simply ignored me.  I find that really
> annoying.  If anyone knows of a way to reach someone at cPanel, please
let
> us know.  I'd like to point out to them that they *need* to make their
> changes available to the public.  I'm not a fan of folks making money
off of
> the work of open source software and then not even having the courtesy
of
> honoring the few license requirements there are.
> 
> - -- 
> Todd  OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xD654075A | URL:
www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp
> ==
> ==
> I got stopped by a cop the other day.  He said, "Why'd you run that
stop
> sign?"  I said, "Because I don't believe everything I read."
> -- Stephen Wright
> 
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.2.3rc2 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: When crypto is outlawed bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl.
> 
> iD8DBQE/KbfEuv+09NZUB1oRAuC3AKCsj14RKywYjQtf3cXdIbFW2tOGtgCgsI7w
> jQdIuKN2/Ut9E4BwKyiOH/o=
> =27TD
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> 
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RE: [Mailman-Users] Analysis of reasons for bounce responses

2003-07-31 Thread Christine De La Rosa
Hi Richard,

Here is what I know so far, mail for most list members seem to be going
through for the most part.  About two weeks ago MM mass unscribed about
300 folx. Now we seem to have stablized the members but the owners of
the lists are getting routinely bounced.  Yahoo email address do not
have a problem, aol is a major headache as is hotmail.  What is
happening on my side is that the sub notices are never reaching the
owners, so they are bouncing like mad and eventually hit the excessive
bounce phase after five days (since we have the settings set to set to
nomail after 5 bounces and mailman set to send notifcations once a day).


I have been monitoring this list and the cpanel forums
(http://forums.cpanel.net) to see if this issue is resolved.  I have
tried several of the fixes they had on there to no avail.  Although they
have set out a new fix
http://forums.cpanel.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12740&highlight=mail
man for the qrunner eating up cpu, but I haven't tried it yet.  I am
basically trying to find bits and pieces and make them into a whole that
will fix my problems.

 this is clipped and pasted from a final bounce message I am getting
from MM.  Since I don't really know how to read bounces I am not sure if
the issue is on my side, their side or somewhere in the middle.  Please
note that the email that bounced on the sub notice is getting all its
mail from just regular list mail.

Hope this helps!  Back to the quest!

Chris



This is a Mailman mailing list bounce action notice:

List:   Vegas
Member: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Action: Subscription disabled.
Reason: Excessive or fatal bounces.



The triggering bounce notice is attached below.

Questions? Contact the Mailman site administrator at
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

From: "Mail Delivery System" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Subject: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender 
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 08:02:13 -0700 


This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.

A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) 
failed:

  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
SMTP error from remote mailer after MAIL 
FROM:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
host mailin-01.mx.aol.com [152.163.224.26]: 550 REQUESTED ACTION 
NOT TAKEN:
DNS FAILURE
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
SMTP error from remote mailer after MAIL 
FROM:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> SIZE=2643:
host nymx-2.nyroc.rr.com [24.92.226.164]: 553 5.1.8 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>... Domain of sender address 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] does not exist

-- This is a copy of the message, including all the headers. 
--

Return-path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Received: from alpha.domain2.com ([127.0.0.1])
by alpha.domain2.com with esmtp (Exim 4.20)
id 19h9UO-0006jA-VB; Mon, 28 Jul 2003 08:00:40 -0700
Received: from [127.0.0.1] (helo=alpha.domain2.com)
by alpha.domain.com with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 19h9U7-0006h2-MD
for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mon, 28 Jul 2003 08:00:23 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Subject: 3 Finewine moderator request(s) waiting
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 08:00:01 -0700
Precedence: bulk
X-BeenThere: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2
List-Id: 
X-List-Administrivia: yes
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

The [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list has 3 request(s) waiting 
for
your consideration at:


Please attend to this at your earliest convenience.  This notice of
pending requests, if any, will be sent out daily.

Pending subscriptions:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Sue) Sat Jul 19 17:23:45 2003
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (deborah) Thu Jul 24 22:38:08 2003
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jen) Sun Jul 27 04:36:20 2003

_



-Original Message-
From: Richard Barrett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 7:30 PM
To: Christine De La Rosa
Cc: 'Mailman'
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Analysis of reasons for bounce responses


Chris

On Friday, August 1, 2003, at 12:48  am, Christine De La Rosa wrote:

> This is the EXACT problem I am having with mailman, using cpanel and 
> exim.  I, however, am on a dedicated box and have root access.  I have

> been working on this problem for over three weeks.  I am tired and 
> frustrated and wishing I knew a little more about mailman and its 
> inner workings.

As I said in my post, this bounce issue is not, in my view, at heart a  
bug in Mailman. The evidence I saw of bounce notices from local MTA  
(Exim) say that the MTA is having problems getting outgoing mail off  
the system and finally bouncing it back to Mailman when it fails to do  
so.

If you are getting fin

RE: [Mailman-Users] Analysis of reasons for bounce responses

2003-07-31 Thread Christine De La Rosa
This is the EXACT problem I am having with mailman, using cpanel and
exim.  I, however, am on a dedicated box and have root access.  I have
been working on this problem for over three weeks.  I am tired and
frustrated and wishing I knew a little more about mailman and its inner
workings.  I come from a majordomo background.  When I got this
dedicated server, it had mailman pre-installed so I thought kewl I will
use it instead.  It ran fabulously until cpanel did their last upgrade.
I have been in hell since then.  

I wish I could help you, but I have not been able to figure out even
from the logs what the issues are.  Granted, looking at the logs are
like gobbledigook to me.  So I have spent a lot of time searching the
archives for this problem.  Although, I haven't been able to find anyone
with my specific issue.  I can tell you that qrunner has been consuming
my cpu at astonishing rates.  But there is no rhyme or reason to that,
that I can see.  If I find anything out I will post it here.

Chris

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Richard Barrett
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 5:08 AM
To: Mailman
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Analysis of reasons for bounce responses


This is not my problem but one soemone approached me about off list.  
I'll summarise their situation and I would appreciate any thoughts,  
comments, sanity checking on my analysis.

Situation:

1. List admin's domain is hosted by a server run by a hosting company.

2. The server is (probably) running Linux

3. Mailman 2.1.2 is provided on the server with, I believe, CPanel

4. The server's MTA appears to be Exim 4.20 handling both incoming and  
outgoing messages to/from Mailman

5. Mailman list's basically work OK much of the time

6. Periodically messages out from Mailman are being bounced en masse  
leading to the subscriber accounts being disabled

7. The bounce response attached to the bounce action notice produced by

Mailman when subscribers are disabled in these circumstances is from  
the server local MTA. The MTA lists what appears to be all the  
addresses to which the outgoing message was sent with a note against  
each saying "unrouteable mail domain maildomain.tld". The bounce  
response asserts that this is a permanent failure. The messages are  
each being sent to a number of different mail domains not just a single

one

8. The list admin with the problem has no access to either the Mailman  
or MTA logs

9. The server administrator is supposedly claiming that these bounces  
are a result of "a bug in Mailman for which no patch is available"

My analysis is:

1. The problem is not obviously due to any bug in Mailman

2. The problem is more likely due to an IP routing problem which  
periodically afflicts the server and its ability to reach the MTAs for  
the mail domains addressed by the outgoing messages

3. The MTA is accepting the outgoing messages from Mailman and then  
finding it has problems of its own in delivering mail which are  
unrelated to Mailman as the origin of the messages

But I have to concede I know nothing about Exim 4.20. I know even less  
about CPanel.

Any thoughts or anatomically feasible suggestions welcome.



-
Richard Barrett  
http://www.openinfo.co.uk


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[Mailman-Users] Sending mail question

2003-07-29 Thread Christine De La Rosa
Prior to the upgrade on my server my mail was being sent out by
[EMAIL PROTECTED] now it is being sent by [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 
Is this a correct setting?
 
Thanks
Christine
 
 
 
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RE: [Mailman-Users] Am I doing something wrong?

2003-07-28 Thread Christine De La Rosa
I am sorry, I hadn't seen a response from Richard Barret.  I checked the
archives and there it was.  Thanks Jon for pointing that out.

Chris

-Original Message-
From: Jon Carnes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 8:02 AM
To: Christine De La Rosa
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Am I doing something wrong?


Christine, 

I don't see where you ever responded to Richard Barret who kindly
answered your question with a most pertinent response (you have look in
the MTA logs to see what is really going on).

If you did respond, my apologies.

Jon Carnes

On Mon, 2003-07-28 at 08:48, Christine De La Rosa wrote:
> Am I missing some ettiquette for this list?  I have sent two questions

> to the list with no responses.  I am wondering if they have never been

> seen before therefore no one has the answer, or if they are so simple 
> they seem too stupid to answer.  I am having so many problems with the

> new mailman upgrade, I really need help.  If I am on the wrong list 
> can someone point me to the right area to ask for help?
>  
> Thanks
> Chris
>  
> 
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RE: [Mailman-Users] Trying again

2003-07-28 Thread Christine De La Rosa
Thanks for the info Richard.  At the risk of sounding like a total
rookie, where would those logs be found?  I have checked the logs in the
mailman folder but none of them are called MTA logs, would they be under
another name?

Thanks
Chris

On Thursday, July 24, 2003, at 09:16 PM, Christine De La Rosa wrote:


I am having a new issue, again I have searched the archives, but see no
resolution. My list owners receive email at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
This is supposed to be forwarded to their private email. When the
system sends out the notification of pending request it is sending it to
the private email, for some reason the email never reaches them even
though their emails are perfectly fine, 

You could try checking your MTA log to see if these outbound messages
from Mailman to the list admin's email address are being sent out by
Mailman and accepted by the MTA. You might then be able to track down if
and where the message is being bounced.


 so it bounces I guess and then
disables them after so many tries.


I would really appreciate help with this issue.  My list wranglers are
being kicked off their own list on a daily basis.

Christine 


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[Mailman-Users] Am I doing something wrong?

2003-07-28 Thread Christine De La Rosa
Am I missing some ettiquette for this list?  I have sent two questions
to the list with no responses.  I am wondering if they have never been
seen before therefore no one has the answer, or if they are so simple
they seem too stupid to answer.  I am having so many problems with the
new mailman upgrade, I really need help.  If I am on the wrong list can
someone point me to the right area to ask for help?
 
Thanks
Chris
 
 
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[Mailman-Users] Trying again

2003-07-24 Thread Christine De La Rosa
I am having a new issue, again I have searched the archives, but see no
resolution.  My list owners receive email at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
This is supposed to be forwarded to their private email.  When the
system sends out the notification of pending request it is sending it to
the private email, for some reason the email never reaches them even
though their emails are perfectly fine, so it bounces I guess and then
disables them after so many tries.
 
I would really appreciate help with this issue.  My list wranglers are
being kicked off their own list on a daily basis.
 
Christine
 
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[Mailman-Users] Uncaught Bounce Notifications w/ Auto Responder

2003-07-23 Thread Christine De La Rosa
Hello again,
 
I checked the archives but couldn't find anything that addressed this
particular issue.  I am on the latest release of mailman.
 
I have each of my lists set to send out and auto-responder
questionnaire.  Prior to the upgrade it used to be sent by
listname-owner, now it is being sent by listname-bounces, so when the
user hits reply to send back the questionnaire it is replying to
listname-bounces.  What this does is send the email back to the owner
with this in the subject line Uncaught bounce notification.  How do I
fix this?
 
Thanks
Christine
 
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[Mailman-Users] Auto-Responder Question

2003-07-22 Thread Christine De La Rosa
Hello all,

I am a mailman newbie although I have been running mailing lists with
majordomo for about five years.  I have community website and we run
about 30 lists.  I have a dedicated RedHat Linux box running cpanel.
Recently the cpanel folx upgraded my cpanel and also my mailman (I
didn't know about it).  Now I am running mailman 2.1.2.

I am going to post a few questions I have, but wanted to break them out
into individual emails for future searching purposes.

Here is my first question.

I have my lists set up to send a questionnaire using the auto-respond to
-request feature.  I noticed that if a potential member clicks on the
link provided in the confirm subscribe email they do not receive that
questinnaire.  They will only receive it if they reply to the email with
the confirm+number.  Is this how mailman works?  Or is this a feature I
can change?  I want the questionnaire to be sent out if they reply to
the confirm subscribe email or if they click on the link.

Thanks in advance.
Christine


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