Re: [Mailman-Users] Digest formatting--clickable TOC?

2016-09-06 Thread Mark Sapiro 
On 09/06/2016 05:59 AM, Matt Morgan wrote:
> 
> Now that I understand them, I think I'll start using MIME digests them for
> myself when I can. And I like offering the option. The question is more,
> what would I use as the default? And I think honestly that putting everyone
> on MIME digests would substantially decrease readership on this list. We'd
> be "hiding" posts in attachments--essentially adding a click or two before
> people can see them; and since the readers on this list are also the
> authors, that will discourage writing, too. Too risky!


As I've posted before, how the MIME digest is rendered is highly
dependent upon the user's MUA (aka mail client, aka mail reader). Some
MUAs do an excelent job of displaying all the messages inline while
allowing opening and replying to individual messages just as if they'd
been received individually. Others are a complete disaster. Mane are in
between.

Thus, each user has to see how MIME digests are rendered in her
preferred MUA and chose MIME or plain accordingly.

On my digestable lists, I default to MIME on the theory that those that
don't like it will complain and I can tell them how to switch. If you
default to plain, digest members may never know there is another choice
that they may prefer.

However, this decision is also dependent on the list and its user
community and defaulting to MIME may not be appropriate in situations
other than mine.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Digest formatting--clickable TOC?

2016-09-06 Thread Tanstaafl 
On 9/2/2016 6:39 PM, Mark Sapiro  wrote:
> On 09/02/2016 02:00 PM, Andrew Hodgson wrote:
>>
>> I requested a similar feature a while ago:
>>
>> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2014-December/078192.html
> 
> 
> And my responses at
> 
> and
> 
> still hold. Read the whole thread.

And an even earlier thread that contained a discussion about this
(comments of mine) from December 2009, regarding how Yahoo Digests
provided exactly the behavior you are talking about:

https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/msg55751.html
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Digest formatting--clickable TOC?

2016-09-06 Thread Lucio Chiappetti 

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016, Matt Morgan wrote:


Now that I understand them, I think I'll start using MIME digests them for
myself when I can. And I like offering the option. The question is more,
what would I use as the default? And I think honestly that putting everyone
on MIME digests would substantially decrease readership on this list.


On the list I manage I do not use digests as default, although I recommend 
them. Digests have one advantage which is also a disadvantage under 
certain situations.


- Digests are sent with all mails packed together either at a predefined
  time (usually once per day at midday) OR when they exceeed a given size

- ... so you will NOT receive messages in real time

- this can be an advantage on lists with a large traffic and/or a large
  amount of "noise" (uninteresting messages). I do advise using digests
  for the internal discussion list of our nationwide organization (several
  hundred members). Reading messages once per day cools down the
  discussion. It also diminishes the disturbance of receiving a lot of
  mail asking for attention (I do use digests for "professional
  wide-spectrum" lists, like this one where I can discard a fraction of
  messages as not interesting or not concerning me, usually just by
  scanning through the subjects)

- this is a disadvantage for professional narrow-spectrum lists where
  quick reply is required. In this case I do avoid digests so that I
  can receive messages in real time (mailman is still good in providing
  a common reference archive for all members). Usually these lists
  have few members, and act orderly (no noise, no flames).

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Digest formatting--clickable TOC?

2016-09-06 Thread Matt Morgan 
On Mon, Sep 5, 2016 at 4:32 AM, Lucio Chiappetti 
wrote:

> On Fri, 2 Sep 2016, Matt Morgan wrote:
>
> The eventual publication looks a lot like a mailman digest, and that's
>> what I'm switching it to.
>>
>
> I see that over the weekend there was some discussion about digests, not
> only in this thread !
>
> I understand that mailman can do digests as a series of MIME attachments
>> to the TOC email, one for each posting. I don't think that's going to work
>> for this crowd, although I'm not sure.
>>
>
> Personally I do use MIME digests (not plain text ones) for almost all the
> lists I'm subscribed to (actually ALL which allow it). But then my MUA
> (Alpine) with some customization (including a formail-based shell script)
> can turn the MIME digests into a temporary mail folder, where I can access
> each posting as a normal e-mail.  And even if I would not have my scripts,
> I could still natively view the attachment index and access the RFC822
> attachment one by one as a normal e-mail.
>
> I love how you subscribe to a digest then use your mailer to extract
individual messages. This is real power-user territory!

Now that I understand them, I think I'll start using MIME digests them for
myself when I can. And I like offering the option. The question is more,
what would I use as the default? And I think honestly that putting everyone
on MIME digests would substantially decrease readership on this list. We'd
be "hiding" posts in attachments--essentially adding a click or two before
people can see them; and since the readers on this list are also the
authors, that will discourage writing, too. Too risky!
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Digest formatting--clickable TOC?

2016-09-05 Thread Lucio Chiappetti 

On Fri, 2 Sep 2016, Matt Morgan wrote:

The eventual publication looks a lot like a mailman digest, and that's 
what I'm switching it to.


I see that over the weekend there was some discussion about digests, not 
only in this thread !


I understand that mailman can do digests as a series of MIME attachments 
to the TOC email, one for each posting. I don't think that's going to 
work for this crowd, although I'm not sure.


Personally I do use MIME digests (not plain text ones) for almost all the 
lists I'm subscribed to (actually ALL which allow it). But then my MUA 
(Alpine) with some customization (including a formail-based shell script) 
can turn the MIME digests into a temporary mail folder, where I can access 
each posting as a normal e-mail.  And even if I would not have my scripts, 
I could still natively view the attachment index and access the RFC822 
attachment one by one as a normal e-mail.


--

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For more info : http://www.iasf-milano.inaf.it/~lucio/personal.html

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Digest formatting--clickable TOC?

2016-09-02 Thread Mark Sapiro 
On 09/02/2016 02:00 PM, Andrew Hodgson wrote:
> 
> I requested a similar feature a while ago:
> 
> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2014-December/078192.html


And my responses at

and

still hold. Read the whole thread.

Note, this is quite doable in Mailman 3 as MM 3 messages contain an
Archived-At: header with a link to the archived message (this is not
possible to do in Mailman 2.1 for various technical reasons). You mite
consider submitting a feature request for this at
.

This is still tricky for 'plain' digests as by definition they don't
contain html and things like

https://lists.mailman3.org/archives/list/mailman-us...@mailman3.org/message/HQGWIKZIU6CLTO6TZAXKWB2PE7ZFTIYJ/;>lists.mailman3.org
web site. (Mark Sapiro)

render like that and not as an active

lists.mailman3.org web site. (Mark Sapiro)

link. and things like

lists.mailman3.org web site. (Mark Sapiro)


look ugly even if the MUA renders the URL as an active link.

OTOH, in a MIME format digest, the TOC could be a text/html part which
would work.

-- 
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Digest formatting--clickable TOC?

2016-09-02 Thread Andrew Hodgson 
Hi,

I requested a similar feature a while ago:

https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2014-December/078192.html

I am still asked for this feature quite often.

Andrew.

-Original Message-
From: Mailman-Users 
[mailto:mailman-users-bounces+andrew=hodgsonfamily@python.org] On Behalf Of 
Matt Morgan
Sent: 02 September 2016 17:39
To: Mailman-Users@python.org
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Digest formatting--clickable TOC?

One of the lists I'm now running uses Mailman as an aid to generating a 
periodical email publication. People send in items for topics, and an editor 
grafts them into a single large message that goes out about twice a month. The 
eventual publication looks a lot like a mailman digest, and that's what I'm 
switching it to.

The single-most user-requested improvement to this publication is that they 
want clickable links in the Table of Contents that anchor down to the entries 
in the list.

I understand that mailman can do digests as a series of MIME attachments to the 
TOC email, one for each posting. I don't think that's going to work for this 
crowd, although I'm not sure.

And I understand that not all email clients support anchors in html-formatted 
messages. But has anybody done something like this (where a digest's TOC is 
clickable and links down to the contents)? Are there other options I'm not 
thinking about?

Thanks,
Matt
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[Mailman-Users] Digest formatting--clickable TOC?

2016-09-02 Thread Matt Morgan 
One of the lists I'm now running uses Mailman as an aid to generating a
periodical email publication. People send in items for topics, and an
editor grafts them into a single large message that goes out about twice a
month. The eventual publication looks a lot like a mailman digest, and
that's what I'm switching it to.

The single-most user-requested improvement to this publication is that they
want clickable links in the Table of Contents that anchor down to the
entries in the list.

I understand that mailman can do digests as a series of MIME attachments to
the TOC email, one for each posting. I don't think that's going to work for
this crowd, although I'm not sure.

And I understand that not all email clients support anchors in
html-formatted messages. But has anybody done something like this (where a
digest's TOC is clickable and links down to the contents)? Are there other
options I'm not thinking about?

Thanks,
Matt
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