Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

> "Brad" == Brad Knowles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

At 5:09 PM -0400 9/18/06, John A. Martin quoted JC Dill:

>  Where are those restrictions expressed.  I do not see them at
>  .  I do not see
>  them in either the subscription challenge mail nor in the welcome mail
>  pertaining to a recent subscription to mailman-users.

USC Title 17, for US users, and applicable international treaties and
local law, for the rest.

Ie, it's just a matter of copyright, which resides in the poster.
Since it is common practice for mailing lists to have public archives,
it seems reasonable to suppose that license has been granted to the
mailing list owner to keep an archive as well as redistribute to the
list.  In the case of the Mailman lists you have both an explicit
opt-in (which contains documentation of the existence of public
archives IIRC), and publically accessible documentation that there is
a public archive.  I see little risk for the Mailman lists here.

But "all rights reserved" means that other recipients do not get an
implicit license to do the same thing just because they've received a
copy.

IMHO IANAL, but I think the Mailman policy minimizes various risks.
In particular, it is not at all clear to me that posters should
believe they are delegating the right to redistribute their posts to
anybody but the mailing list owner, and I really doubt they think they
are delegating the right to give blanket permission to anybody, not even
the list owner.  I would not permit third party public archives without
talking to a lawyer first.

Brad> That's a very valid point.  I thought we'd already covered
Brad> this problem last time the Gmane issue came up, but
Brad> obviously not.

Of course the policy should be documented.



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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[Brad Knowles]

At 5:09 PM -0400 9/18/06, John A. Martin quoted JC Dill:

> JC> The list subscription policy is that it is not OK to setup a
> JC> public archive without specific permission.  When a
> JC> subscription request is accepted the list server is saying
> JC> "yes" to personal archives, and "no" to public archives
> JC> without specific permission.  Gmane ignores this distinction.
>
>  Where are those restrictions expressed.  I do not see them at
>  .  I do not see
>  them in either the subscription challenge mail nor in the welcome mail
>  pertaining to a recent subscription to mailman-users.

That's a very valid point.  I thought we'd already covered this 
problem last time the Gmane issue came up, but obviously not.

I'll talk to JC offline and see if we can work up some suggested 
improvements to the wording of the respective templates and then we 
can see what Barry thinks.  Once we have a consensus, one of us will 
make the appropriate changes.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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 Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[John A. Martin]

>>>>> "JC" == JC Dill
>>>>> "Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane"
>>>>>  Mon, 18 Sep 2006 09:41:30 -0700

JC> Ask me if you can borrow my car, and I might say yes and give
JC> you the keys.  Take my car without asking, that's theft.
>>
>> Gmane subscribes to lists.  When the list accepts the
>> subscription has not the list said yes and given the keys in
>> your analogy?
>>
JC> The list subscription policy is that it is not OK to setup a
JC> public archive without specific permission.  When a
JC> subscription request is accepted the list server is saying
JC> "yes" to personal archives, and "no" to public archives
JC> without specific permission.  Gmane ignores this distinction.

Where are those restrictions expressed.  I do not see them at
List-Unsubscribe:
<http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users>.  I do not see
them in either the subscription challenge mail nor in the welcome mail
pertaining to a recent subscription to mailman-users.

Your list, your rules.  But, please, before criticizing folks for not
complying with your rules, make your rules clear and plainly visible
to subscribers before their subscription is completed.

jam


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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[JC Dill]

Barry Warsaw wrote:
>  
> I think that if Gmane were to address the issues that Brad and JC have 
> raised about their operations, then it would be worth reconsidering.
+1

:-)

jc
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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[Barry Warsaw]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sep 18, 2006, at 12:26 PM, JC Dill wrote:

> If Barry wants to let the list be gatewayed to gmane and usenet  
> over our objections, he is certainly entitled to do that.  It will  
> also mean that he will need new people to help manage the various  
> lists that Brad and I help manage because I'm with Brad on this -  
> gateway to gmane without even asking my opinion and I'm no longer  
> interested in helping manage the list.  We (the people on mailman- 
> users-owner who do the lion's share of the work in managing the  
> lists) deserve to be consulted and have our opinions heard on this  
> matter.

JC (and Brad) are absolutely right, and I hereby publicly apologize  
for usurping their roles.  I highly value both their contributions as  
list managers, and since both are opposed to gatewaying to Gmane  
under the current conditions, I retract my earlier endorsement.

I think that if Gmane were to address the issues that Brad and JC  
have raised about their operations, then it would be worth  
reconsidering.  I'll leave the final decision up to them and won't  
stick my nose in unless specifically asked to (and even then, not  
until the current bleeding stops :).  I don't expect them to lobby  
Gmane to address their complaints, but perhaps those of you who would  
like to see Gmane gateways for the Mailman lists can forward those  
concerns on to Lars and company.

On a personal note, I've re-enabled my subscription to mailman-users  
after a very long hiatus.  I still don't expect to be able to keep up  
with the traffic, so I'll mostly lurk unless there's some specific  
issue that I think needs a definitive pronouncement.  And next time,  
I'll try harder not to be a dumbass. ;)

- -Barry

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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[Jason R. Mastaler]

On 9/18/06 10:26 AM, JC Dill wrote:
> If Barry wants to let the list be gatewayed to gmane and usenet over our 
> objections, he is certainly entitled to do that.  It will also mean that 
> he will need new people to help manage the various lists that Brad and I 
> help manage because I'm with Brad on this - gateway to gmane without 
> even asking my opinion and I'm no longer interested in helping manage 
> the list.  We (the people on mailman-users-owner who do the lion's share 
> of the work in managing the lists) deserve to be consulted and have our 
> opinions heard on this matter.

For now, what about mailman-announce?  Since it's a read-only list, it 
doesn't pose any of the problems you've brought up with non-subscribers 
and the like.  Until you guys and Barry work out what you want to do 
with mailman-uses and the other lists, is it okay if mailman-announce is 
added to Gmane?
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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[Jason R. Mastaler]

On 9/18/06 10:26 AM, JC Dill wrote:
> 2)  Even if Gmane wasn't a PITA, there are increased problems with 
> managing a list when it's gatewayed to usenet.  

Gmane is not a Usenet gateway.  Please see http://gmane.org/ for more 
about what Gmane is and is not.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[JC Dill]

Jim Popovitch wrote:
> On Mon, 2006-09-18 at 09:13 -0700, JC Dill wrote:
>> 1)  We have never received any such notice.  I was one of the MM 
>> list-owners the first and second times this came around.
>> 
>> 2)  Opt-out is wrong.  It might, possibly, be not too terribly
>> wrong if that were the only thing they did/do wrong, but
>> unfortunately it's just the nth instance of them doing something
>> wrong.
> 
> So why can't someone *help* gmane and Lars (who does seem like a 
> nice guy), to better understand what we think he should be doing.
> It sounds like people here have the advice they need, unfortunately
> it just seems to me that a few people are sitting back from the edge
> shooting arrows rather than trying to help bridge the impasse.

We tried.  He said "Oh, OK, I'll do that then" (e.g. make sure
Gmane has list owner permission before adding a list) but then it
doesn't get done.  From the Gmane FAQ:

> # I'm a list administrator, and I don't think you should archive my
> list. No problem. Just send a mail to Lars, and he'll remove the
> list.
> 
> # ...and the reason I want to remove the list is that I don't want
> unsubscribed people to be able to post to the list. Usenet sucks. 
> True, but the Gmane can make the group read-only, and that way Gmane
> won't try to be a bidirectional gateway for your list.
> 
> # Ok, but I still want to remove the list, because I don't want
> address harvesters to be able to grab email addresses. Have you
> considered whether the list could still be carried by Gmane, but with
> address encryption switched on?
> 
> # I just don't want to, ok? Quit harassing me, or I'll beat you to a
> pulp! Sure, no problem. It's your list.

Yet, the mailman-users list was added to Gmane a second time AFTER we 
had asked that it be removed and *not ever added back in again*. 
Clearly, he is not following his own policy.

If you want to hold Lars' hand until he gets it done right, be my guest! 
  I'm sure that his service could be really useful at some point, but 
IMHO it's not at that point YET.  He needs to fix the problems we 
brought up the first and second times mailman was added to Gmane.  The 
"address encryption" mentioned in the FAQ (quoted above) was not present 
the first time mailman was added.  If it had been present and Gmane 
hadn't been explicitly responsible for directly leaking email addresses 
to spammers we might have had a different outcome to Mailman-users being 
added to Gmane.  So, that problem was fixed (at some point, after it 
caused harm) but the subscription permission problem has NOT been fixed.

Gmane's subscription process is fraught with problems because it diverts 
responsibility from Gmane to ask permission onto the person submitting 
("Please do not subscribe lists that don't want to be carried by 
Gmane.") and onto the list owner (to "opt out").

This is a broken process.

We don't allow individuals to be added to a mailing list this way!  Why 
should we allow a mailing list to be added to a public archive this way?

The correct process is for Gmane to ensure that Gmane HAS permission 
before adding a list.  The process for adding a list should include the 
list *owner* being contacted and asked to confirm that it is OK to add 
the list to Gmane's public archives *before* it is added.

jc
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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[JC Dill]

John A. Martin wrote:
> JC> Barry Warsaw wrote:
> >> If I was aware of such problems in the past, I honestly don't
> >> remember -- I'll place the blame squarely on my overloaded
> >> brain, and age. :) Taking a fresh look at this, I say let's do
> >> what we can to get the lists on Gmane, including any back
> >> archives.
>
> JC> This problem surfaced when I found a "virgin" address of mine
> JC> receiving spam.  I had just that newly created address to
> JC> subscribe and post to a mailman list.  How had spammers found
> JC> it so fast?  A quick google found that my address had been
> JC> leaked straight to usenet by gmane.
>
> Please explain how you think Gmane leaked anything straight to Usenet.
> Gmane is NOT connected with Usenet!
>   
I mis-remembered, it leaked my (previously un-known and unspammed) email 
address onto the web, not onto usenet.
> JC> Ask me if you can borrow my car, and I might say yes and give
> JC> you the keys.  Take my car without asking, that's theft.
>
> Gmane subscribes to lists.  When the list accepts the subscription has
> not the list said yes and given the keys in your analogy?
>   
The list subscription policy is that it is not OK to setup a public 
archive without specific permission.  When a subscription request is 
accepted the list server is saying "yes" to personal archives, and "no" 
to public archives without specific permission.  Gmane ignores this 
distinction.

jc


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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[Jim Popovitch]

On Mon, 2006-09-18 at 09:13 -0700, JC Dill wrote:
> 1)  We have never received any such notice.  I was one of the MM 
> list-owners the first and second times this came around.
> 
> 2)  Opt-out is wrong.  It might, possibly, be not too terribly wrong if 
> that were the only thing they did/do wrong, but unfortunately it's just 
> the nth instance of them doing something wrong.

So why can't someone *help* gmane and Lars (who does seem like a
nice guy), to better understand what we think he should be doing.   It
sounds like people here have the advice they need, unfortunately it just
seems to me that a few people are sitting back from the edge shooting
arrows rather than trying to help bridge the impasse.

-Jim P.



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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[JC Dill]

Jason R. Mastaler wrote:
> On 9/17/06 11:20 PM, Tokio Kikuchi wrote:
>>> Great, thanks Barry.  I'll take care of getting the MM lists + back 
>>> archives added to Gmane.  The missing Python lists are someone else's 
>>> problem .  Since MM is your project, shouldn't your words above 
>>> be sufficient as far as permission to add the lists?  Or are you 
>>> saying some sort of additional request from Gmane is also necessary?
>>>
>> Barry has clearly stated "if the Gmane administrators make a formal 
>> request" and this was the point that past mirroring (or archiving) 
>> requests were rejected, IIRC.
> 
> Yes I read that, but it seems pointless to me since Barry has also 
> clearly stated he approves of the lists being added.  Like I said, when 
> the lists are added, the list-owner address will be notified, as that is 
> the normal procedure.  Is this sufficient?

While Barry is the primary developer and primary list owner, he does NOT 
manage these lists alone.  Many of you may be unaware that Brad Knowles 
and I have been doing almost all of the list management in recent years. 
  Brad and I are both against adding mailman to gmane for a number of 
reasons.  Here are 2 of my reasons (Brad may have others):

1)  Gmane has been a PITA from day one because they don't follow their 
own policies.  (Read the archives for all the details.)  I don't trust 
them.  Who knows what they will do in the future without notifying us?

2)  Even if Gmane wasn't a PITA, there are increased problems with 
managing a list when it's gatewayed to usenet.  (Example - allowing 
posts from non-subscribers.  Either we end up with thread fragmentations 
where some people get the non-member posts and others don't, or the list 
managers have to deal with non-member posts being gatewayed back to the 
list.)  We are busy enough as it is when we manage it as just a mailing 
list.

If Barry wants to let the list be gatewayed to gmane and usenet over our 
objections, he is certainly entitled to do that.  It will also mean that 
he will need new people to help manage the various lists that Brad and I 
help manage because I'm with Brad on this - gateway to gmane without 
even asking my opinion and I'm no longer interested in helping manage 
the list.  We (the people on mailman-users-owner who do the lion's share 
of the work in managing the lists) deserve to be consulted and have our 
opinions heard on this matter.

jc


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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[John A. Martin]

>>>>> "JC" == JC Dill
>>>>> "Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane"
>>>>>  Mon, 18 Sep 2006 07:55:37 -0700

JC> Barry Warsaw wrote:
>> If I was aware of such problems in the past, I honestly don't
>> remember -- I'll place the blame squarely on my overloaded
>> brain, and age. :) Taking a fresh look at this, I say let's do
>> what we can to get the lists on Gmane, including any back
>> archives.

JC> This problem surfaced when I found a "virgin" address of mine
JC> receiving spam.  I had just that newly created address to
JC> subscribe and post to a mailman list.  How had spammers found
JC> it so fast?  A quick google found that my address had been
JC> leaked straight to usenet by gmane.

Please explain how you think Gmane leaked anything straight to Usenet.
Gmane is NOT connected with Usenet!

JC> Ask me if you can borrow my car, and I might say yes and give
JC> you the keys.  Take my car without asking, that's theft.

Gmane subscribes to lists.  When the list accepts the subscription has
not the list said yes and given the keys in your analogy?

jam



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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[JC Dill]

Jason R. Mastaler wrote:

> Although when the lists are added to Gmane, an auto-generated notice 
> *is* sent to the list-owner address explaining what has happened and 
> giving them the option to easily opt-out by replying to the notice. 
> It's possible in the Mailman case that there was some technicality that 
> prevented this notice from being sent, or that the people raising havoc 
> about this issue here weren't MM list-owners when the lists were first 
> added to Gmane (years ago), and therefore didn't get the notice.

1)  We have never received any such notice.  I was one of the MM 
list-owners the first and second times this came around.

2)  Opt-out is wrong.  It might, possibly, be not too terribly wrong if 
that were the only thing they did/do wrong, but unfortunately it's just 
the nth instance of them doing something wrong.

jc






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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[Jason R. Mastaler]

On 9/17/06 11:20 PM, Tokio Kikuchi wrote:
>> Great, thanks Barry.  I'll take care of getting the MM lists + back 
>> archives added to Gmane.  The missing Python lists are someone else's 
>> problem .  Since MM is your project, shouldn't your words above 
>> be sufficient as far as permission to add the lists?  Or are you 
>> saying some sort of additional request from Gmane is also necessary?
>>
> 
> Barry has clearly stated "if the Gmane administrators make a formal 
> request" and this was the point that past mirroring (or archiving) 
> requests were rejected, IIRC.

Yes I read that, but it seems pointless to me since Barry has also 
clearly stated he approves of the lists being added.  Like I said, when 
the lists are added, the list-owner address will be notified, as that is 
the normal procedure.  Is this sufficient?

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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[Jason R. Mastaler]

On 9/18/06 7:37 AM, John A. Martin wrote:
> Unless I am missing something, the form at
>  does not include a place for the
> list-owner address.  It sees to me therefore unrealistic to expect the
> Gmane administrator to contact the list-owner but rather the the
> person submitting the request ("Your email address" on the form) if
> there are any questions.  For this reason I suggest to owners of lists
> with public archives under my purview that they might be well advised
> to subscribe their lists to Gmane themselves rather than wait for
> someone else to do it and get the name wrong or otherwise raise havoc.

Although when the lists are added to Gmane, an auto-generated notice 
*is* sent to the list-owner address explaining what has happened and 
giving them the option to easily opt-out by replying to the notice. 
It's possible in the Mailman case that there was some technicality that 
prevented this notice from being sent, or that the people raising havoc 
about this issue here weren't MM list-owners when the lists were first 
added to Gmane (years ago), and therefore didn't get the notice.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[JC Dill]

Brad Knowles wrote:

> I try very hard to "never say never", but I cannot imagine a 
> circumstance were we would possibly ever trust them to carry any 
> Mailman or Python-related content.

I *can* imagine - it could (perhaps) happen when they actually follow 
their stated policy and contact a list owner to confirm that the list 
owner approved of the list being mirrored on gmane.  Something that has 
not happened even ONCE WRT the mailman lists.

Until gmane starts following their own rules, we can't trust them.

jc

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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[JC Dill]

Barry Warsaw wrote:

> If I was aware of such problems in the past, I honestly don't  
> remember -- I'll place the blame squarely on my overloaded brain, and  
> age. :)   Taking a fresh look at this, I say let's do what we can to  
> get the lists on Gmane, including any back archives.

The problem is that Gmane violated both their own policies (to contact 
list owners before adding lists) and their agreement with us to not 
archive mailman lists.

I simply don't trust them.

This problem surfaced when I found a "virgin" address of mine receiving 
spam.  I had just that newly created address to subscribe and post to a 
mailman list.  How had spammers found it so fast?  A quick google found 
that my address had been leaked straight to usenet by gmane.

1)  They didn't contact the list owner for permission before archiving 
the list.

2)  They didn't munge email addresses before posting the list messages 
to usenet.

They seem to have fixed problem #2, but problem #1 remains.  How hard is 
it to follow their OWN policy and contact a list's owner before adding 
it to their gateway?  This is basic netiquette.  Yet they don't seem 
able to comply with it.

Taking a fresh look, it looks like they are STILL unable (or unwilling) 
to comply with this.  And that's the crux of the matter.

Ask me if you can borrow my car, and I might say yes and give you the 
keys.  Take my car without asking, that's theft.

Ask me if I want to have sex, and I might say yes!  Try to have sex with 
me without my permission, that's rape.

Ask me if you can mirror/gateway a list I administer, I might say yes. 
Mirror or gateway it without permission (especially when your OWN policy 
says you ask first) and it is a netiquette violation and a copyright 
violation.  Not as bad as car theft or rape, but it's still a matter of 
taking something without permission, and it's still wrong.

IMHO we should not let Gmane mirror the mailman lists until they FIX 
their subscription process to ensure that they have the list owner's 
permission *before* they add the list to their gateway.  If we don't 
maintain this policy, we are endorsing what they do (adding without 
getting permission) and that's just wrong.

jc


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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[JC Dill]

Tokio Kikuchi wrote:

> Barry has clearly stated "if the Gmane administrators make a formal 
> request" and this was the point that past mirroring (or archiving) 
> requests were rejected, IIRC.

I'm not so sure we ever rejected a formal request.  IIRC, no formal 
request has ever been made.  Certainly I've never seen one come to the 
mailman-owners address.  And there lies the crux of the problem.

jc - mailman-users list admin

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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[John A. Martin]

>>>>> "Tokio" == Tokio Kikuchi
>>>>> "Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane"
>>>>>  Mon, 18 Sep 2006 14:20:56 +0900

Tokio> Jason R. Mastaler wrote:
>> On 9/17/06 9:36 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>>> Taking a fresh look at this, I say let's do what we can to get
>>> the lists on Gmane, including any back archives.
>>>
>>> Jason, perhaps you can mediate here, since you seem to know
>>> both the Gmane and Mailman/Python organizations.  If the Gmane
>>> administrators make a formal request to the list owners of the
>>> Mailman and Python mailing lists that are missing, then my
>>> vote is to accept the offer, provide them with whatever they
>>> need, and get the newsgroups going.
>>
>> Great, thanks Barry.  I'll take care of getting the MM lists +
>> back archives added to Gmane.  The missing Python lists are
>> someone else's problem .  Since MM is your project,
>> shouldn't your words above be sufficient as far as permission
>> to add the lists?  Or are you saying some sort of additional
>> request from Gmane is also necessary?
>>

Tokio> Barry has clearly stated "if the Gmane administrators make
Tokio> a formal request" and this was the point that past
Tokio> mirroring (or archiving) requests were rejected, IIRC.

That I believe will not be likely to happen.  Nobody at Gmane actively
solicits lists to be carried.  Lists are added to Gmane when someone
fills in the request form.  As I understand it, based upon
observation, if the request looks reasonable an administrator will
subscribe Gmane to the list and respond to subscription challenge
messages.  The most difficult part of this process is selecting the
Group Name in compliance with Gmane Policy and fitting the Group Name
into the existing Gmane naming hierarchy.  List properties and options
other than the Group Name and place in the Gmane hierarchy can be
changed later.

Unless I am missing something, the form at
<http://gmane.org/subscribe.php> does not include a place for the
list-owner address.  It sees to me therefore unrealistic to expect the
Gmane administrator to contact the list-owner but rather the the
person submitting the request ("Your email address" on the form) if
there are any questions.  For this reason I suggest to owners of lists
with public archives under my purview that they might be well advised
to subscribe their lists to Gmane themselves rather than wait for
someone else to do it and get the name wrong or otherwise raise havoc.

Note also that old archives will only be imported to Gmane as
indicated at <http://gmane.org/import.php>.

HTH

jam


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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[Bretton Vine]

Brad Knowles said the following on 2006/09/16 09:07 PM:
> The reason that they were removed from Gmane is that they tell us 
> they have a policy of always contacting the listowner to see if it's 
> okay for them to carry the list on their site

This is not the case with some lists on the server I admin. Industry 
specific lists were added without the consent of the domain owner or 
list-owner.

Additionally mail-archive.com has archived other lists without list-owner 
consent as well. Additionally their terms of service do not allow you to 
request the removal of the list only to prevent further archival by removing 
their archive address from the subscribers.

I'm making no comment on the ppl behind gmane etc as I don't know them 
personally enough to comment, and I applaud efforts at making archives of 
useful lists available in a standards compliant, easily-searchable format.

However I have nothing but criticism for the practise of making lists 
available online without list-owner's consent. It's as bad as forwarding 
posts from someone to a third-party list without the posters permission. 
Earlier this year this happened when someone's comments (said somewhat in 
jest) for forwarded to an enthusiasts forum as an example of hate speech 
type behaviour. This led to intimidating phone calls and allegedly death 
threats to the poster from individuals he didn't know at all who took his 
forwarded comments completely out of context.

It was a very sad week for the community network I look after. We've had 
people meet, get married and have kids because of the lists and the related 
communities. To see that abused in a negative manner was unacceptable and 
led to a lack of openness in new subscriptions meaning that now for some 
lists people have to be vetted and archives are completely banned.

Online means of archiving lists are useful -- don't get me wrong -- but some 
sense of polite protocol must be observed to prevent abuse. Besides, doesn't 
the mailman list already have an web-accessible archive front-end?

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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[Bretton Vine]

Jason R. Mastaler said the following on 2006/09/17 08:10 AM:
> If Gmane allows me and others to keep up with Barry's release
 > announcements for example in a convenient manner, I think that's a good 
thing.

What's preventing you from just subscribing to the announce list?


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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[Bretton Vine]

Brad Knowles said the following on 2006/09/17 07:32 AM:
> By rights, the listowner(s) should have the final say as to who is 
> allowed to see the archives of their list, who is allowed to 
> subscribe to their list, and who is allowed to post.  Period.

In 10 years of being online and being part of list-based communities I've 
gone through all the iterations of questioning the point above from the same 
perspective as the original poster for this thread to Brad's comments above 
and I can say without doubt now that the above is not merely an 
opinion-based point of view but a fundamental standard and policy guide for 
the successful use and growth of list-based communities.

Even the most open of lists require one or more parties to adopt the 
list-owner role and make decisions for the whole of the list that not 
everyone will like or agree with.

But continued use of a list (and associated growth in members) requires some 
semblance of order from a benevolent administrator role. In my experience to 
date what Brad's saying above is by far the most successful means of 
operating a list despite it's unpopularity at times. :-)

> In commercial circles, the kind of thing that they're doing is called 
> piracy -- they take someone else's content and repurpose that for 
> their own benefit and for the benefit of their customers.

And that's different from most newspapers how?  Or any media 
enterprise for that matter. Piracy is one freedom you cannot curtail. But at 
the same time as mentioned above there are reasons for controlling who 
contributes and how content is managed.

> Okay, so Lars does not today make a profit running Gmane.  That 
> doesn't mean that tomorrow he won't change his mind, or "sell" the 
> business to someone else who will.

We have a problem here in terms of Data Retention laws. The only privacy 
protection we have is a clause in our constitution. We have no privacy laws 
or regulations to properly protect content or archived information -- 
legally required otherwise.

The only protection we have is the policies implemented by list-owners and 
the abiding by them of list members. In the truest sense, people governing 
themselves, assuming no bad apples involved. Exploitation of the system 
offers no recourse for when things go sour.

Netiquette is covered by some RFCs but list-etiquette is mostly a word of 
mouth exercise. It's best taught by example.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[Tokio Kikuchi]

Jason R. Mastaler wrote:
> On 9/17/06 9:36 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>> Taking a fresh look at this, I say let's do what we can to get the lists 
>> on Gmane, including any back archives.
>>
>> Jason, perhaps you can mediate here, since you seem to know both the 
>> Gmane and Mailman/Python organizations.  If the Gmane administrators 
>> make a formal request to the list owners of the Mailman and Python 
>> mailing lists that are missing, then my vote is to accept the offer, 
>> provide them with whatever they need, and get the newsgroups going.
> 
> Great, thanks Barry.  I'll take care of getting the MM lists + back 
> archives added to Gmane.  The missing Python lists are someone else's 
> problem .  Since MM is your project, shouldn't your words above be 
> sufficient as far as permission to add the lists?  Or are you saying 
> some sort of additional request from Gmane is also necessary?
> 

Barry has clearly stated "if the Gmane administrators make a formal 
request" and this was the point that past mirroring (or archiving) 
requests were rejected, IIRC.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[Jason R. Mastaler]

On 9/17/06 9:36 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> Taking a fresh look at this, I say let's do what we can to get the lists 
> on Gmane, including any back archives.
> 
> Jason, perhaps you can mediate here, since you seem to know both the 
> Gmane and Mailman/Python organizations.  If the Gmane administrators 
> make a formal request to the list owners of the Mailman and Python 
> mailing lists that are missing, then my vote is to accept the offer, 
> provide them with whatever they need, and get the newsgroups going.

Great, thanks Barry.  I'll take care of getting the MM lists + back 
archives added to Gmane.  The missing Python lists are someone else's 
problem .  Since MM is your project, shouldn't your words above be 
sufficient as far as permission to add the lists?  Or are you saying 
some sort of additional request from Gmane is also necessary?

Thanks again.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[Jason R. Mastaler]

On 9/17/06 2:32 AM, Brad Knowles wrote:
> What parts of the Mailman community can only access this mailing list 
> (and the archives) via services like Gmane, as opposed to subscribing to 
> this mailing list, and reading our public archives that we maintain on 
> python.org and at mail-archive.com?

It's not what, but rather, how.  Reading mailing list archives from a 
web interface is neither convenient nor efficient.  Gmane offers them to 
readers via NNTP as well as RSS feeds, and has a real-time indexing 
search engine for each list, among many other features.  It's a 
wonderful service, you really should check it out sometime - 
http://gmane.org/
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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[Barry Warsaw]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Okay, first of all let's all take a deep breath.  This can be worked  
out.

Let me state up front that my general preference is always to allow  
the widest possible access to the Mailman and Python lists, and in  
general to all open source content.  I think it only helps our users  
- -- and yes, ourselves -- if we actively strive to tear down barriers  
to participation rather than build them.  Sometimes things conspire  
against us, like abuse by spammers of completely open lists, or the  
impolite behavior of some participants.  We have an obligation to  
balance our defenses against those abuses with our overriding mission  
to open things up as much as possible.

Sorry to rant, and I don't want to get too political, but this really  
is a wider issue in our society.  I strongly believe that more  
openness is good.  Some can argue that there is a place for secrecy,  
but if so then it must be deliberately narrowed as much as possible.   
I can see no argument for closing avenues of information in an open  
source project.  For me, this is deeply personal because if it  
weren't for the kindness and support of my users, I wouldn't be doing  
this.  It ain't for the money, I can tell you that. :)  In return, we  
give our users software when we can, but more importantly (IMO), we  
give them a community to be part of, to help each other out when  
we're stressed or unavailable.  Without that, our support line gets  
overwhelmed with requests, and that support line for Mailman often  
devolves to my personal email address.  That is not a good thing. :)

So.  I don't know Lars personally though I've had a few email  
interactions with him.  I don't know how Gmane is managed or  
administered.  I only know that I use it occasionally and I've always  
found it a useful and reliable service.  When I need it, I'm really  
glad it's there.

If they have procedures for adding mailing lists, those procedures  
should be followed.  If they weren't in the Mailman and Python list  
cases, then they should be.  I have absolutely no reason to believe  
there's anything malicious or nefarious going on.  To the extent that  
there are problems in their procedures, I think it's more likely that  
newbies screwed up or that overworked volunteers simply forgot or  
took shortcuts.  Who among us can't sympathize with that?

If I was aware of such problems in the past, I honestly don't  
remember -- I'll place the blame squarely on my overloaded brain, and  
age. :)   Taking a fresh look at this, I say let's do what we can to  
get the lists on Gmane, including any back archives.

Jason, perhaps you can mediate here, since you seem to know both the  
Gmane and Mailman/Python organizations.  If the Gmane administrators  
make a formal request to the list owners of the Mailman and Python  
mailing lists that are missing, then my vote is to accept the offer,  
provide them with whatever they need, and get the newsgroups going.

- -Barry

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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[Brad Knowles]

At 6:10 AM + 9/17/06, Jason R. Mastaler wrote:

>  So because you feel personally offended, you choose to punish all
>  Mailman users by not letting Gmane carry their lists?  I think you are
>  serving your own interests, and not those of the Mailman community, and
>  that is unfortunate.

What parts of the Mailman community can only access this mailing list 
(and the archives) via services like Gmane, as opposed to subscribing 
to this mailing list, and reading our public archives that we 
maintain on python.org and at mail-archive.com?

Please tell me what parts of the Mailman community are having this 
heinous crime committed against their person.


The lists are open to public subscription (we don't even require 
approval), and one of the very few things we ask is that people don't 
make their own copies of those archives publicly accessible (and 
abusable), and that people don't set up their own public gateways 
which allow anyone to post.

If people want to post to the list, they should do so as a subscriber 
to the list, and if they want to see the content of this list then 
they should either subscribe or read the public archives.

I'm sorry, I just don't see how this is such a heinous crime.

>  Good god man, this is an open source software project.  If Gmane allows
>  me and others to keep up with Barry's release announcements for example
>  in a convenient manner, I think that's a good thing.

I don't see where Gmane has a God-given right to carry any content 
they want, and to do whatever they want with that content.

Their right to carry content stops where it impacts our right to 
choose where our content is being distributed or what is being done 
with that content, and to require that anyone who wishes to 
redistribute our content make sure that they do so by our rules.

When they do so in violation of our rules (and theirs), that's "game over".

>You've blown this
>  issue up into comic book proportions and made it something that it
>  simply is not.

I think maybe you need to go have another talk with Lars.  When I 
apprised him of the situation and asked that they stop carrying our 
content, he didn't put up a fuss or a fight -- he agreed that they 
had been carrying our content without our approval, in violation of 
our policies and theirs, and he terminated the gateway.

Frankly, that exchange says far more positive things about Gmane than 
you've done, and the more you rabid you get, and the more you rant 
endlessly about this subject, the less likely we are to ever 
reconsider this position in a positive light.  After all, if Gmane is 
likely to attract people that behave in that manner, then maybe it 
really is a better thing that we don't allow them to ever re-enable 
their gateway.


IMO, what you've shown us so far is a pretty poor advertisement for 
Gmane.  If you want to continue to drag them down with you, then you 
don't leave me a whole lot of choice in terms of what kinds of action 
I can take to deal with that kind of behaviour.

If nothing else, the subject is completely off-topic, and does not 
belong on this list.

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temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[Carl Zwanzig]

In a flurry of recycled electrons, Jason R. Mastaler wrote:
> On 9/16/06 11:32 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:
> > If the Gmane folks had actually come to us first, we might well have 
> > approved their request to set up a gateway. 

> So because you feel personally offended, you choose to punish all 
> Mailman users by not letting Gmane carry their lists?  I think you are 
> serving your own interests, and not those of the Mailman community, and 
> that is unfortunate.

AFAICT, most of the "mailman community" reads this mailman list. It's not
hard to find or use. Also, decending to personal attacks does not further
the disuussion.

> Good god man, this is an open source software project.  If Gmane allows 
> me and others to keep up with Barry's release announcements for example 
> in a convenient manner, I think that's a good thing.  You've blown this 
> issue up into comic book proportions and made it something that it 
> simply is not.

I think that Jason is doing the blowing up here. The list owners/maintainers
have clearly said that they don't want to play with gmane. Done.  If gmane
had added some of my lists w/o asking, I'd have some impolite things to say
about that, too. Just because mailman is an opensource project doesn't mean
that the maintainers -owe- the rest of the world anything. (And, if you
want to keep up with announcements, subscribe to the mailman-announce list.)

Please let it rest.

z!

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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[Jason R. Mastaler]

On 9/16/06 11:32 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:
> If the Gmane folks had actually come to us first, we might well have 
> approved their request to set up a gateway. 

So because you feel personally offended, you choose to punish all 
Mailman users by not letting Gmane carry their lists?  I think you are 
serving your own interests, and not those of the Mailman community, and 
that is unfortunate.

Good god man, this is an open source software project.  If Gmane allows 
me and others to keep up with Barry's release announcements for example 
in a convenient manner, I think that's a good thing.  You've blown this 
issue up into comic book proportions and made it something that it 
simply is not.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[Brad Knowles]

At 1:25 AM + 9/17/06, Jason R. Mastaler wrote:

>  I understand what you're saying, but seriously, who cares
>  if the mailman lists were added without anyone's approval?

I do.  The other listowners do.  Lots of other owners of other lists 
that I've talked to likewise care what's being done with their lists.

>  Gmane is a valuable and useful service and does no damage
>  to anyone.

I disagree.  Among other things, they frequently take away control 
that the listowners have over who is allowed to subscribe to lists 
and who is not (and who is allowed to post and who is not), because 
Gmane doesn't control the subscribership of any of their gated 
newsgroups nor do they limit the posting privileges for most of their 
gated newsgroups.

By rights, the listowner(s) should have the final say as to who is 
allowed to see the archives of their list, who is allowed to 
subscribe to their list, and who is allowed to post.  Period.


Today, Gmane may not be serving up any ads side-by-side with our 
content, or allowing their copy of our content to be taken by more 
unsavoury characters who might then use that as fodder for a spam 
campaign (or otherwise abuse it), but once that control is out of our 
hands then there's nothing we can do to protect our list and our list 
members.

>  You could think of it as someone doing the project a
>  favor rather than something that needs "forgiveness."

In commercial circles, the kind of thing that they're doing is called 
piracy -- they take someone else's content and repurpose that for 
their own benefit and for the benefit of their customers.


Okay, so Lars has a policy that they don't ever take someone else's 
content without their express approval, but we know of multiple 
examples where that policy was not followed.  If they did rigorously 
follow that policy, then what they do could potentially be classified 
under fair use, depending on how they use that and make it available 
to their customers.

Okay, so Lars does not today make a profit running Gmane.  That 
doesn't mean that tomorrow he won't change his mind, or "sell" the 
business to someone else who will.

>  The fact that you have philosophical objections to
>  Gmane shouldn't affect whether the Mailman lists are
>  carried there.  That's unfair to everyone else.

If I and all the other listowners have a philosophical objection to 
Gmane copying and repurposing our content, then that most definitely 
*should* affect whether our lists are carried there -- that's a key 
part of our job.


We're not against other sites carrying copies of our content, if we 
are convinced that they will operate in good faith and will abide by 
our policies (and their own).  We do this today with 
mail-archive.com, who host the official searchable archives of this 
list, among others.

If the Gmane folks had actually come to us first, we might well have 
approved their request to set up a gateway.  But they didn't, and if 
they violate that most basic principle of good operation and good 
netizenship, we have to seriously wonder what other good principles 
that they might accidentally one day occasionally violate.


And you better believe that we're looking into nabble.com, too.  From 
what I can tell, it looks like just another site that takes what they 
think is "free content" and then re-packages that for their own 
benefit.

As an Free/Libre/Open-Source Software (FLOSS) project, we try to be 
pretty open with our software and all the related content, but there 
are still some boundaries that have to be respected.  Most basic 
among those are copyright (and copyleft).

We get pretty unhappy when others casually violate these boundaries 
and don't show us the respect that we are due.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

 -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
 Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See .
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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[Larry Stone]

On 9/16/06 8:25 PM, Jason R. Mastaler at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> I understand what you're saying, but seriously, who cares if the mailman
> lists were added without anyone's approval?  Gmane is a valuable and
> useful service and does no damage to anyone.  You could think of it as
> someone doing the project a favor rather than something that needs
> "forgiveness."  The fact that you have philosophical objections to Gmane
> shouldn't affect whether the Mailman lists are carried there.  That's
> unfair to everyone else.

As valuable as you think Gmane is and how thousands of people can benefit, I
can only say "what the heck is Gmane". I've never heard of it other than the
last time this discussion came up (and I've heard of most widespread things
on the Internet) so I think you're way overestimating how many people would
benefit. Granted, I'm a sample of one but having now checked out what is it,
it just makes think "what's the big deal?" Certainly not something I see
adding a lot of value. If I'm reading it right, Gmane does mail to Usenet
gateway. How does that add value considering mailman already has mail to
Usenet gatewaying built into it.

-- 
Larry Stone
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.stonejongleux.com/


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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[Jason R. Mastaler]

I understand what you're saying, but seriously, who cares if the mailman 
lists were added without anyone's approval?  Gmane is a valuable and 
useful service and does no damage to anyone.  You could think of it as 
someone doing the project a favor rather than something that needs 
"forgiveness."  The fact that you have philosophical objections to Gmane 
shouldn't affect whether the Mailman lists are carried there.  That's 
unfair to everyone else.

On 9/16/06 6:57 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:
> The problem is that there have been more than one incident with Gmane in 
> groups that I'm affiliated with.  I could forgive one incident. It's 
> harder for me to forgive two.  In talking to other people who've 
> likewise had these kinds of things done to them by Gmane, it's much much 
> harder for me to forgive multiple such incidents.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[Brad Knowles]

At 7:40 PM + 9/16/06, Jason R. Mastaler wrote:

>Having known Lars
>  Magne Ingebrigtsen for years, he's all about being a good net
>  citizen, writing software that is aggressively standards
>  compliant, and all the other good things.  Not to mention his
>  significant contributions to open source software.  In short,
>  I've never known him or anything he's ever been involved in
>  to be "sleazy".

I don't know Lars personally, but in the exchanges we've had, he does 
seem to be a nice enough guy.

The problem is that there have been more than one incident with Gmane 
in groups that I'm affiliated with.  I could forgive one incident. 
It's harder for me to forgive two.  In talking to other people who've 
likewise had these kinds of things done to them by Gmane, it's much 
much harder for me to forgive multiple such incidents.

>  It seems wrong to me that you guys are preventing hundreds
>  and perhaps thousands of Mailman and Python users from
>  using an extremely valuable service (Gmane) because of what
>  amounts to a technicality, and is most likely just a
>  misunderstanding.

The information is available in plenty of places, beyond the official 
archive sites.  I don't think anyone on the project is going to lose 
any sleep that it's not available on Gmane -- that's assuming that it 
has not been re-added to Gmane over our express objections.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

 -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
 Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See .
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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[Jason R. Mastaler]

AFAIK, Gmane has a small group of administrators who add the lists. 
It's possible one of them just forgot to notify you guys, or didn't 
understand that he had an obligation to.  I'd guess that this was an 
honest mistake more than anything malicious.  Having known Lars Magne 
Ingebrigtsen for years, he's all about being a good net citizen, writing 
software that is aggressively standards compliant, and all the other 
good things.  Not to mention his significant contributions to open 
source software.  In short, I've never known him or anything he's ever 
been involved in to be "sleazy".

It seems wrong to me that you guys are preventing hundreds and perhaps 
thousands of Mailman and Python users from using an extremely valuable 
service (Gmane) because of what amounts to a technicality, and is most 
likely just a misunderstanding.

On 9/16/06 1:07 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:
> At 6:30 PM + 9/16/06, Jason R. Mastaler wrote:
> 
>>  I was surprised to find the Mailman lists not on Gmane, and some
>>  googling revealed some sort of religious flame war I don't really want
>>  to get into.
> 
> The reason that they were removed from Gmane is that they tell us they 
> have a policy of always contacting the listowner to see if it's okay for 
> them to carry the list on their site, and I've spoken to the other 
> listowners and we're all pretty sure that they never contacted any of 
> us.  So, in violation of their own claimed policy, they put the list 
> up.  All of the listowners are in agreement that this is pretty sleazy 
> behaviour.
> 
> Unfortunately, this has happened more than once with Gmane.  And we know 
> that we're not the first to have this problem.  IMO, this means we 
> cannot trust them, either now or in the future.
> 
> I try very hard to "never say never", but I cannot imagine a 
> circumstance were we would possibly ever trust them to carry any Mailman 
> or Python-related content.
> 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[Brad Knowles]

At 6:30 PM + 9/16/06, Jason R. Mastaler wrote:

>  I was surprised to find the Mailman lists not on Gmane, and some
>  googling revealed some sort of religious flame war I don't really want
>  to get into.

The reason that they were removed from Gmane is that they tell us 
they have a policy of always contacting the listowner to see if it's 
okay for them to carry the list on their site, and I've spoken to the 
other listowners and we're all pretty sure that they never contacted 
any of us.  So, in violation of their own claimed policy, they put 
the list up.  All of the listowners are in agreement that this is 
pretty sleazy behaviour.

Unfortunately, this has happened more than once with Gmane.  And we 
know that we're not the first to have this problem.  IMO, this means 
we cannot trust them, either now or in the future.


I try very hard to "never say never", but I cannot imagine a 
circumstance were we would possibly ever trust them to carry any 
Mailman or Python-related content.

-- 
Brad Knowles, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

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 Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA.  See .
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[Mailman-Users] MM lists on Gmane

[Jason R. Mastaler]

I was surprised to find the Mailman lists not on Gmane, and some 
googling revealed some sort of religious flame war I don't really want 
to get into.  But, I think at the very least, mailman-announce should be 
carried on Gmane.  I don't see how that would hurt anyone.  I'd really 
like to just add an RSS feed from Gmane in my browser to pick up news 
about new MM releases rather than having to subscribe to a list and get 
it in email form.
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