Re: [Mailman-Users] New user - Mailman question
At 5:38 PM -0700 2004-08-21, Charles Mikecz Vamossy wrote: You may think my ISP's spamware is stupid and for all I know you may be right. Auto-whitelist management systems (such as TMDA) are greatly despised amongst much of the Internet community. I don't know if your ISP is using this particular package or not, but I make a policy of refusing to communicate with anyone who uses such a system. And if someone who uses a system like this is posting to a mailing list I'm on, I am not likely to be very kind in my public responses to the way their mail system is treating me. My intention was - as it is with any new list I join - to wait for the first digest to appear in my suspect Email box, authorize it and then merrily read the daily digests. Instead, by the time I returned from dinner, I was criticised and reviled by the group. If you're going to use this kind of a system, you need to wait for the first few messages (or digests) to show up before you post a message to the list, and you should warn people that you have such an anti-spam system in use. If nothing else, you need to get a flavour for the sort of discussions that happen on the list before you jump in head first. Posting to the list immediately after subscribing is generally considered to be rude, unless you've done your homework and checked out the archives of the list, and you can make sure that your post fits in with the style and flavour of the list. For that matter, before posting to any list, you should search the archives and the FAQ, to make sure that this issue is not well-known and previously discussed. Even if your post is on a subject that is not addressed through the archives or the FAQ, and it is in the appropriate style, if you are using an anti-spam system that effectively spams anyone who tries to send you mail, then you should warn people about that as part of your signature in every post or e-mail message you send. So far as I can tell, you violated all of these rules of courtesy. Perhaps it is not MM that's at fault, but rather the way MM is set up. This has nothing to do with Mailman. This has everything to do with your multiple violations of the rules of common courtesy. I don't know. The experience is enough, however, to convince me that while MM may be a good platform for large users who can afford a full time administrator, especially if the software is enhanced by inhouse developed and other commercial software. This is not at all the case. I am not a full-time administrator, and I administer multiple different mailing lists for multiple different groups on multiple different systems, all using Mailman. Some of those lists groups are small, some are a bit larger. In fact, I would submit that there are virtually no full-time Mailman mailing list administrators anywhere in the world. Maybe a handful, at most -- and most of whom are probably on these mailing lists. For plain vanilla lists, it is better to stick with one of the Big Vanillas. Mailman *is* one of the Big Vanillas. In fact, I would argue that it is probably one of the biggest, if not the biggest. The difference is that Mailman is not used to host individual lists that are the largest in the world (although there is a full-time Mailman list administrator for lists.apple.com, and he manages some very large lists for them, and in his private life hosts a number of other extremely large lists on his own equipment). What you do get with Mailman is not the extreme size of the individual lists, but the amazing number and variety of smaller sites that are running smaller lists, the sum total of which ends up making the community of Mailman users as large or larger than most any other community of mailing list users anywhere in the world. I believe you will find that most Linux-related mailing lists are hosted using Mailman, and I know that all the FreeBSD mailing lists are using Mailamn. I believe that it is the most widely used mailing list management software in the open source community, and one of the most widely used mailing list management systems outside of that community. Most of that has happened not just because it's shipped by default by a lot of vendors, but because of all the mailing list management systems in the world, it's one of the easiest to install, configure, and manage. Indeed, that's probably why a lot of vendors choose to ship it by default. With China and India both going for Linux with a vengence from the government on down to the man-in-the-street, that's a potential two to three billion users within the target future growth patterns of the open source community. That's like one-third to one-half the entire population of the world, or more. Mailman is the leading mailing list management system within that community today, and I believe that it is likely to remain the leading mailing list
Re: [Mailman-Users] New user - Mailman question
Charles As a matter of courtesy, when replying to question posted to the list by somebody, I always respond to the individual poster with a copy for information to the list so that the discussion is available to other subscribers and within the list archives. I have no objection to you having a spam management policy which may trap and even discard my response to you, even though you have actively solicited that message from me. That is your valid choice. What I object to is my inbox being further cluttered with messages, from spam management software telling me I have to fill in its form if I wish to communicate with this or that person. In my view such software just adds to the spam we are all suffering from. Richard On 21 Aug 2004, at 05:45, Charles Mikecz Vamossy wrote: Richard - I am sorry your note got caught up in my ISP's crap software. Actually, I had no idea that you were going to send me a direct response to a question I posed to a list. Had I known that, I would not have bothered to sign up. I don't know if it was Mailman or you, yourself, who decided to put your email address in the from field, but I signed up for a daily digest form, mailed firectly from the list and not all this crap - as you call it. Charles -Original Message- From: Richard Barrett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Aug 20, 2004 4:17 PM To: Charles Mikecz Vamossy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] New user - Mailman question On 20 Aug 2004, at 20:39, Charles Mikecz Vamossy wrote: HI, I am a new member of the list and a list administrator responsible for two lists. Frankly I am struggling with some of the features and functions and I thought I would ask my elders for some guidance. Our lists are very simple: we distribute weekly information to members about our organization's programs. Our members sign themselves up automatically, receive a confirmation request and when they respond, they get a welcome letter. Only two people (who are also the administrators) can send postings. Letters sent by other members and non-members should be rejected automatically, with an explanation. (They can write to our organization directly...) The problem is that non-members have apparently written postings and we, laboring under the impression that if we do nothing, their letters will get deleted, did in fact do nothing - and the letters appeared on the list. Apparently, we are told by the folks who run the lists for us, there is a set period of quarantine, and when that expires, the letters are treated as approved. This is news to us, and we are unable to find any reference to it in any documentation. No version of MM since I started using it with version 2.0.3 has behaved this way so it is news to me too. Held postings will be held indefinitely with MM sender regular reminders to the list admins that there are held postings. You do not say what version of MM you are running (or rather is being run on your behalf). If it is MM 2.1.x you should be able to use the Privacy options on the web admin GUI senders filter page for the list to arrange for postings from anyone other than your nominated list posters automatically rejected or discarded. Presumably you have already set moderation on for all your subscribers. Is it possible someone with list admin access approved the postings and the explanation you have received is just trying to explain that away by positing some non-existent MM feature? Can you help us and tell us where to find information on this? Are there any parameters we can set differently? Is there anyone out there with a similar problem and how do you handle it? many thanks in advance Charles -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] New user - Mailman question
At 12:55 AM -0400 2004-08-21, Charles Mikecz Vamossy wrote: You really expect ordinary users, who sign up for a discussion list to understand autoresponders, mandatory white lists, etc??? If they're going to use these tools, they need to understand something about how to configure them properly, yes. If not, then they need to either not use the tools at all, or they need to be configured properly by someone else. None of these things have apparently happened in your case. Most have trouble just figuring out the difference between their user ID's and passwords. That's true enough. So, these users need to be using software that is correctly configured by others. Which you are not. To reach a large number of users, the program should be simpler and intuitive (which I know requires a much better quality of development). Yup. Your software is definitely showing that it is very poor quality, or at least very poorly configured. So far my brief introduction to Mailman has been anything but... So far, our brief introduction to you and the software you've been using has been extremely negative. This is something you can fix, either by changing providers (to one where the software *is* properly configured), or by changing the configuration of the software you're using with your current provider. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 SAGE member since 1995. See http://www.sage.org/ for more info. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: Fwd: [Mailman-Users] New user - Mailman question
At 12:50 AM -0400 2004-08-21, Charles Mikecz Vamossy wrote: It is also the intuitive thing to do and is also the common practice with most list management services. Oh? How many decades have you been doing this? How many decades have you been administering such services? You can't make an argument like this unless you can demonstrate that you have a significant amount of experience on which to make your claims. I write to a list - I expect my responses come from the list, especially if I sign up for a daily digest. Instead I am bombarded by hostile individual responses. The responses have come from the list, although some people might also have sent you private responses. You apparently do not understand how this process works, and have either misconfigured the software so that it responds in an inappropriate manner, or the software is not capable of being configured to respond in a correct way. In any event, it certainly did the wrong thing in this case. Very unpleasant to be on the receiving end of list running on a Mailman server. I know know how my users feel... It's very unpleasant to be someone responsible for administering a Mailman mail server when there are clueless users who subscribe and inflict their effluent on everyone on the list. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 SAGE member since 1995. See http://www.sage.org/ for more info. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] New user - Mailman question
At 12:31 AM -0400 2004-08-21, Charles Mikecz Vamossy wrote: Thank you for your clarification. I had no idea - why would I? - that signing up for a mailing list would generate all these individual e-mails coming in from people, as opposed emails coming from the list itself. Had I known that - given that I am using my ISP's spamblocker software - would have never signed up. The problem is that the mail *does* come from the list. However, the From: address in the header is that of the individual sender, and not the list. Your spamblocker software is doing something incredibly stupid by responding to the From: header, and annoying anyone and everyone who ever sends you e-mail via virtually any mailing list that you will ever subscribe to, since virtually all mailing list software works the same way at this level. Using Mailman - as opposed to some of the other popular list programs has turned into a giant headache. I understand that it is complex and has many parameters, but I did not think it would cause so much trouble. Now I understand why our subsribers are so unhappy with it. Mailman is simpler than most mailing list management packages, and the authors have gone to significant lengths to make it relatively easy to download, install, configure, and administer. However, there are some fundamental complexities in this process that you cannot escape. BTW, I participate in a number of mailing lists on Yahoo and never had the this happen to me. All the mail - whether individual or digest form - come from a single source, which is enabled on my spamblocker to get through. You could easily have done the same for Mailman. Search for a string like Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] in the header, and whitelist any message that matches. Easy. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 SAGE member since 1995. See http://www.sage.org/ for more info. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
[Mailman-Users] New user - Mailman question
HI, I am a new member of the list and a list administrator responsible for two lists. Frankly I am struggling with some of the features and functions and I thought I would ask my elders for some guidance. Our lists are very simple: we distribute weekly information to members about our organization's programs. Our members sign themselves up automatically, receive a confirmation request and when they respond, they get a welcome letter. Only two people (who are also the administrators) can send postings. Letters sent by other members and non-members should be rejected automatically, with an explanation. (They can write to our organization directly...) The problem is that non-members have apparently written postings and we, laboring under the impression that if we do nothing, their letters will get deleted, did in fact do nothing - and the letters appeared on the list. Apparently, we are told by the folks who run the lists for us, there is a set period of quarantine, and when that expires, the letters are treated as approved. This is news to us, and we are unable to find any reference to it in any documentation. Can you help us and tell us where to find information on this? Are there any parameters we can set differently? Is there anyone out there with a similar problem and how do you handle it? many thanks in advance Charles -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] New user - Mailman question
On Aug 20, 2004, at 3:39 PM, Charles Mikecz Vamossy wrote: The problem is that non-members have apparently written postings and we, laboring under the impression that if we do nothing, their letters will get deleted, did in fact do nothing - and the letters appeared on the list. Apparently, we are told by the folks who run the lists for us, there is a set period of quarantine, and when that expires, the letters are treated as approved. This is news to us, and we are unable to find any reference to it in any documentation. News to me as well. No mailman installation I've ever dealt with has acted like this. I know of no configuration parameter that could control this, so if it's true I expect it's something added by your host. The easy way around this would be to set it to reject any moderated (and non-member) posts. -Jeff -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] New user - Mailman question
On 20 Aug 2004, at 20:39, Charles Mikecz Vamossy wrote: HI, I am a new member of the list and a list administrator responsible for two lists. Frankly I am struggling with some of the features and functions and I thought I would ask my elders for some guidance. Our lists are very simple: we distribute weekly information to members about our organization's programs. Our members sign themselves up automatically, receive a confirmation request and when they respond, they get a welcome letter. Only two people (who are also the administrators) can send postings. Letters sent by other members and non-members should be rejected automatically, with an explanation. (They can write to our organization directly...) The problem is that non-members have apparently written postings and we, laboring under the impression that if we do nothing, their letters will get deleted, did in fact do nothing - and the letters appeared on the list. Apparently, we are told by the folks who run the lists for us, there is a set period of quarantine, and when that expires, the letters are treated as approved. This is news to us, and we are unable to find any reference to it in any documentation. No version of MM since I started using it with version 2.0.3 has behaved this way so it is news to me too. Held postings will be held indefinitely with MM sender regular reminders to the list admins that there are held postings. You do not say what version of MM you are running (or rather is being run on your behalf). If it is MM 2.1.x you should be able to use the Privacy options on the web admin GUI senders filter page for the list to arrange for postings from anyone other than your nominated list posters automatically rejected or discarded. Presumably you have already set moderation on for all your subscribers. Is it possible someone with list admin access approved the postings and the explanation you have received is just trying to explain that away by positing some non-existent MM feature? Can you help us and tell us where to find information on this? Are there any parameters we can set differently? Is there anyone out there with a similar problem and how do you handle it? many thanks in advance Charles -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Fwd: [Mailman-Users] New user - Mailman question
Am I alone in taking exception to people posting to this list and then having some crap software intercepting the responses they have solicited from the list's subscribers. Begin forwarded message: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 20 August 2004 21:17:52 BST To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: [Mailman-Users] New user - Mailman question Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is an automatic reply to your email message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] This email address is protected by EarthLink spamBlocker. Your email message has been redirected to a suspect email folder for [EMAIL PROTECTED] In order for your message to be moved to this recipient's Inbox, he or she must add your email address to a list of allowed senders. Click the link below to request that [EMAIL PROTECTED] add you to this list. https://webmail.pas.earthlink.net/wam/addme? [EMAIL PROTECTED]id=1bYfPFEY3NZFjw0 -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] New user - Mailman question
On Aug 20, 2004, at 4:22 PM, Richard Barrett wrote: Am I alone in taking exception to people posting to this list and then having some crap software intercepting the responses they have solicited from the list's subscribers. Nope, I expect that's a pretty crowded room :) -Jeff -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: Fwd: [Mailman-Users] New user - Mailman question
On Fri, 2004-08-20 at 15:22, Richard Barrett wrote: Am I alone in taking exception to people posting to this list and then having some crap software intercepting the responses they have solicited from the list's subscribers. Well, if they only want to receive messages from the list itself and not from personal email addresses, I suppose it is within their right and it is their choice to do so. David -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] New user - Mailman question
Jeff Barger wrote: On Aug 20, 2004, at 4:22 PM, Richard Barrett wrote: Am I alone in taking exception to people posting to this list and then having some crap software intercepting the responses they have solicited from the list's subscribers. Nope, I expect that's a pretty crowded room :) For the record. I'm in there too. In fairness to the OP, he may not be aware of this, but I wish people could understand that autoresponders, mandatory white lists and so forth are not compatible with mailing list participation. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: Fwd: [Mailman-Users] New user - Mailman question
David Blomquist wrote: On Fri, 2004-08-20 at 15:22, Richard Barrett wrote: Am I alone in taking exception to people posting to this list and then having some crap software intercepting the responses they have solicited from the list's subscribers. Well, if they only want to receive messages from the list itself and not from personal email addresses, I suppose it is within their right and it is their choice to do so. Yes, I suppose it is their choice, and if they choose to silently trash the inevitable direct replies to their posts, I have no objection, but if they (or some crap software on their behalf) insist on informing me that my reply to their post is not accepted, then I do object. Also, I wonder if they have avoid duplicate copies turned off. If not, they won't receive either the direct reply or the reply from the list. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] New user - Mailman question
On Aug 20, 2004, at 5:32 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: David Blomquist wrote: On Fri, 2004-08-20 at 15:22, Richard Barrett wrote: Am I alone in taking exception to people posting to this list and then having some crap software intercepting the responses they have solicited from the list's subscribers. Well, if they only want to receive messages from the list itself and not from personal email addresses, I suppose it is within their right and it is their choice to do so. Yes, I suppose it is their choice, and if they choose to silently trash the inevitable direct replies to their posts, I have no objection, but if they (or some crap software on their behalf) insist on informing me that my reply to their post is not accepted, then I do object. Also, I wonder if they have avoid duplicate copies turned off. If not, they won't receive either the direct reply or the reply from the list. I've added a little snippet to FAQ entries 1.22 and 1.23 suggesting that people turn such things off. Feel free to change/correct/elaborate. -Jeff -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: [Mailman-Users] New user - Mailman question
At 02:22 PM 8/20/2004 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote: Jeff Barger wrote: On Aug 20, 2004, at 4:22 PM, Richard Barrett wrote: Am I alone in taking exception to people posting to this list and then having some crap software intercepting the responses they have solicited from the list's subscribers. Nope, I expect that's a pretty crowded room :) For the record. I'm in there too. In fairness to the OP, he may not be aware of this, but I wish people could understand that autoresponders, mandatory white lists and so forth are not compatible with mailing list participation. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan You really expect ordinary users, who sign up for a discussion list to understand autoresponders, mandatory white lists, etc??? Most have trouble just figuring out the difference between their user ID's and passwords. To reach a large number of users, the program should be simpler and intuitive (which I know requires a much better quality of development). So far my brief introduction to Mailman has been anything but... -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Re: Fwd: [Mailman-Users] New user - Mailman question
Charles Mikecz Vamossy wrote: It is also the intuitive thing to do and is also the common practice with most list management services. I write to a list - I expect my responses come from the list, especially if I sign up for a daily digest. Instead I am bombarded by hostile individual responses. Very unpleasant to be on the receiving end of list running on a Mailman server. I know know how my users feel... You can configure your list work like Yahoo Group (or like). Read http://your_server/mailman/admin/your_list/?VARHELP=general/reply_goes_to_list -- Tokio Kikuchi, tkikuchi@ is.kochi-u.ac.jp http://weather.is.kochi-u.ac.jp/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
