Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman
Mark Sapiro writes: rant That sounds good, Be fair, Mark. :-) When the distro package works, it *is* good. And it works most of the time AFAIK. but evidently, judging from the number of Debian/Ubuntu packge users who come to this list with mail delivery issues because they have ended up with some Postfix configuration that combines Mailman aliases and postfix_to_mailman.py in incompatible ways, people don't look at the Debian documentation. Well, that's hardly surprising. I've almost never found Debian package documentation useful. But that's usually because it's unneeded and therefore nonexistent. Still, the result is that I rarely even look for it, creature of habit (or lack thereof) that I am. Is the Debian packager here? Or maybe we (== me FVO me in sometime in the summer *if* I'm reminded) should go talk to them, and suggest improvements to the package (for example, their debconf procedures and the post- installation caveats that are displayed). Maybe improve documents (including our own -- our web pages should detect Debian/Ubuntu and Red Hat/Fedora hosted browsers and display big You probably don't want to read this, read your distro's docs instead warnings!) -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman
Le 2012-05-16 09:27, Stephen J. Turnbull a écrit : Maybe improve documents (including our own -- our web pages should detect Debian/Ubuntu and Red Hat/Fedora hosted browsers and display big You probably don't want to read this, read your distro's docs instead warnings!) Regarding this specific item, you shouldn't bother : there are chances that the mailman installation is on a server which is not the machine used to browse the documentation. However, you could leave this note to anyone : If you installed from a distro packege, you probably don't want to read this, read your distro's docs instead. Which would be kinda like having that specific entry in the FAQ moved to the top, blinking bold red. Anyway, collaborating with the packagers to improve packages and avoid troubles in the first place is of course the best, yet time-costly. -- Jérôme -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman
Jérôme writes: Anyway, collaborating with the packagers to improve packages and avoid troubles in the first place is of course the best, yet time-costly. Ah, but Mark's time is the (second-most? :-)[1] valuable resource we have. That's why I've more or less volunteered. Footnotes: [1] Guess what's #1! -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 04:31:41PM -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote: That sounds good, but evidently, judging from the number of Debian/Ubuntu packge users who come to this list with mail delivery issues because they have ended up with some Postfix configuration that combines Mailman aliases and postfix_to_mailman.py in incompatible ways They should be using Exim, and not the monstrosity that is pkg-exim4... ( http://wiki.debian.org/DefaultMTA#Popcon_report_and_install_size ) (I have a deep dislike of Postfix, my solution to dealing with postfix is `postconf -n /root/postfix-perversions` and then `aptitude install exim4-daemon-heavy`) There does seem to be a disproportionate amount of postfix queries on this list, yes. people don't look at the Debian documentation. But they don't. Part of this I think falls in to how apt handles STDOUT during an installation. Imagine, if you will, installing thirty or so packages, and each one, as it crops up, drops out a line or two; they're not going to be seen, necessarily. Rather than ah, you should read your apt.log, my approach would be to amalgamate all of those to the end -- something I think Homebrew (and most Ruby Gems I've seen) does fantastically well. They look at our installation manual or some incompatible web HowTo and wind up with a mess. I wish they all would read and comprehend the FAQ at http://wiki.list.org/x/OIDD. I thought it was exim-users, or similar that would have in the /listinfo/ page something to the effect of, use pkg-exim4-users if you're a Debianista -- that seems to have gone now. I think Nigel's on this list; am I mis-remembering? ONe of the reasons why installing from source is not exactly straight-forward is that Debian has conventions for things like the user accounts used for specific things. If you're going to compile Mailman from source on a Debian-based system, you'll need to either undermine a lot of other things, or supply the appropriate configure flags so that Mailman uses the accounts that Debian uses. FWIW, I tend to use the Debian maintainers' versions of Exim, but have a couple of patches that are manually applied (well, the deployment system does them for me). Packaged versions of software may not always be the most up-to date version, but, for instance, IIRC, the XSS exploit was fixed-up fairly quickly after announcement (the heads-up probably helped) -- certainly more quickly than the time it would have taken for me to manually apply the patch, 'properly' (rather than doing it from mutt...). (If I wanted cutting edge, I'd use nightly/trunk from VCS... if it wasn't bzr (never been able to get my head around it).) -- It is lack of confidence, more than anything else, that kills a civilisation. We can destroy ourselves by cynicism and disillusion, just as effectively as by bombs. -- Kenneth Clark -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman
Hi, I'd like to make the case for considering the Debian etc Mailman instead of rolling your own. I've done several Mailman installs under Debian and Ubuntu and have had minimal problems. The key in my opinion is to look at the installation guide and make sure you actually do everything that's listed there that's appropriate. It's easy enough to assume that a lot of what you need to do regarding setup will be done for you when you install a package, but this isn't really the case with Mailman (by necessity). ONe of the reasons why installing from source is not exactly straight-forward is that Debian has conventions for things like the user accounts used for specific things. If you're going to compile Mailman from source on a Debian-based system, you'll need to either undermine a lot of other things, or supply the appropriate configure flags so that Mailman uses the accounts that Debian uses. I had to do a number of Mailman instals on a Ubuntu box in 2009. This is the command line I came up with: ./configure --with-username=list --with-groupname=list \ --with-mail-gid=list --with-cgi-gid=www-data These flags were a product of looking at the Debian package sources and several rounds with the various bits of the system where it complained about user mismatches. Since I was doing multiple installs for multiple virtual hosts (see other thread on this), I also added: --prefix=/usr/local/mailman/example.com/ --with-mailhost=example.com --with-urlhost=www.example.com I also wrote the following in my file of notes at the time (since I was going to have to do this multiple times): You might want to umask 002 before running make. after make install: cd $prefix bin/check_perms then chown www-data archives/private chmod o-x archives/private (Do stuff specific to your webserver and MTA setup) Run bin/genailiases from $prefix Try check-perms again after genaliases ---CUT here --- There were some other bits and pieces specific to the multiple hosts aspect of it. IN particular, there was a patch I was applying to add the domain as a suffix so that the same list name could be used across domains. I'm not sure if that patch is now the virtual hosts branch or if it's something else. All this was a product of many days of slavery and lots of helpful advice from this list, which you can read at the following threads (don't know why they split): http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2009-October/067354.html http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2009-October/067363.html http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2009-October/067364.html Hope all of this is of some use to someone. Geoff. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 4:36 PM, Geoff Shang ge...@quitelikely.com wrote: Hi, I'd like to make the case for considering the Debian etc Mailman instead of rolling your own. I've done several Mailman installs under Debian and Ubuntu and have had minimal problems. I can't claim a lot of experience, but I did install Mailman on at least 3 Ubuntu servers recently and on the basis of that limited experience, I agree with you. In Ubuntu 12.04 installing the Mailman deb package was very straightforward and is working without any problems (after I ran bin/check_perms and manually fixed anything the script didn't fix). -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman
Geoff Shang wrote: I've done several Mailman installs under Debian and Ubuntu and have had minimal problems. The key in my opinion is to look at the installation guide and make sure you actually do everything that's listed there that's appropriate. It's easy enough to assume that a lot of what you need to do regarding setup will be done for you when you install a package, but this isn't really the case with Mailman (by necessity). rant That sounds good, but evidently, judging from the number of Debian/Ubuntu packge users who come to this list with mail delivery issues because they have ended up with some Postfix configuration that combines Mailman aliases and postfix_to_mailman.py in incompatible ways, people don't look at the Debian documentation. They look at our installation manual or some incompatible web HowTo and wind up with a mess. I wish they all would read and comprehend the FAQ at http://wiki.list.org/x/OIDD. And, while I'm wishing, sometimes I wish I were less compulsive about this and could just refer them to that FAQ and forget about it. /rant ONe of the reasons why installing from source is not exactly straight-forward is that Debian has conventions for things like the user accounts used for specific things. If you're going to compile Mailman from source on a Debian-based system, you'll need to either undermine a lot of other things, or supply the appropriate configure flags so that Mailman uses the accounts that Debian uses. Which, along with postfix_to_mailman.py, is a large part of why people should heed the above FAQ. There were some other bits and pieces specific to the multiple hosts aspect of it. IN particular, there was a patch I was applying to add the domain as a suffix so that the same list name could be used across domains. I'm not sure if that patch is now the virtual hosts branch or if it's something else. If the patches are those referred to at http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2006-March/018629.html, the branch at https://code.launchpad.net/~msapiro/mailman/vhost is based on those but includes several updates and fixes. If they are from https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/558126, they are someone elses work. All this was a product of many days of slavery and lots of helpful advice from this list, which you can read at the following threads (don't know why they split): http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2009-October/067354.html http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2009-October/067363.html http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2009-October/067364.html You actually missed one: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2009-October/067350.html The reason the thread is split is you were initially moderated. Your replies to my posts were Cc'd to me, and my replies to those reached the list before your replies were approved and reached the list. Pipermail threading sometimes fails if the referenced message (In-Reply-To: or References:) is not in the Pipermail archive at the time the referencing message is archived. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 7:31 PM, Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.net wrote: Geoff Shang wrote: I've done several Mailman installs under Debian and Ubuntu and have had minimal problems. The key in my opinion is to look at the installation guide and make sure you actually do everything that's listed there that's appropriate. It's easy enough to assume that a lot of what you need to do regarding setup will be done for you when you install a package, but this isn't really the case with Mailman (by necessity). rant That sounds good, but evidently, judging from the number of Debian/Ubuntu packge users who come to this list with mail delivery issues because they have ended up with some Postfix configuration that combines Mailman aliases and postfix_to_mailman.py in incompatible ways, people don't look at the Debian documentation. They look at our installation manual or some incompatible web HowTo and wind up with a mess. I wish they all would read and comprehend the FAQ at http://wiki.list.org/x/OIDD. And, while I'm wishing, sometimes I wish I were less compulsive about this and could just refer them to that FAQ and forget about it. /rant I'm one member of the list who is extremely grateful for your compulsion. In my opinion, your help on this list is an invaluable asset to the Mailman community. Without your compulsive help, the Mailman user community would be tremendously disadvantaged compared to its current status. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman
Lindsay Haisley writes: It's probably just as easy to bypass the precompiled Ubuntu package and work straight from the Mailman distribution. If I have issues, which are ususally creative problems with Python, I'd much rather work with the Mailman devs than with Canonical :-) We do like to hear we're easy to work with! The distros (and that includes even Gentoo and Arch, to some degree) do have their place, but it's not in the specialized mission-critical components of the system. Depending on your application, you may want to apply that even to the kernel and libc, but most of the time there's a long list of highly complex and widely used components (kernel, libc, Apache, ...) that the distros do quite well enough, and you rarely if ever run into issues (whether software bugs or admin PEBKAC). But when you do run into issues, whether a need for customization or a bug, it help a lot to be using something as close to upstream's recommended configuration as possible. That's why many projects (not just Mailman) recommend building from source. (Yeah, I know you know this, Lindsay. It's worth repeating occasionally, though. This automatically-triggered recording was brought to you by the FLUFL's Fluffy Support Brigade and the Mailman Devs. :-) -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman
On Tue, 2012-05-15 at 11:54 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: But when you do run into issues, whether a need for customization or a bug, it help a lot to be using something as close to upstream's recommended configuration as possible. That's why many projects (not just Mailman) recommend building from source. (Yeah, I know you know this, Lindsay. It's worth repeating occasionally, though. This automatically-triggered recording was brought to you by the FLUFL's Fluffy Support Brigade and the Mailman Devs. :-) Heh!! Yeah, the Mailman developers seem to be a very focused and friendly bunch. Brad Knowles is a friend of mine here in Austin, as we're both members of Austin's Unix professional society. There's also the fact that I've bent Mailman to my will in a couple of departments, forcing it to deal intelligently with PHP and Namazu. As you point out, it's always easiest to start as far upstream as possible when one does this sort of thing. I've moved away from Gentoo for my servers. It's just too much hassle and takes too long to deal with building from source for _everything_, so I let Canonical handle the big stuff and use Ubuntu server on my newest server, and Linux Mint on my favorite desktop. I'm 70 years old. I just don't have the bandwidth, or the time, to learn everything I need to know to keep up with all the dirty details of the ever increasing complexity of a modern Linux installation. -- Lindsay Haisley | The only unchanging certainty FMP Computer Services |is the certainty of change 512-259-1190 | http://www.fmp.com| - Ancient wisdom, all cultures -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman
I just installed, and just as promptly un-installed mailman on Ubuntu server 10.04.4 LTS. The offered pacakge version of mailman for this release, which I used, is 2.1.13-1. I have a few questions which perhaps someone could answer, if anyone knows the thinking behind Canonical's (and the package maintainer's) motives/reasons for what was done. The most awkward change, for me, is the elimination altogether of the mailman user. Mailman native scripts and utilities apparently get run as root, which as always brings up a whole kettle of security questions. On top of that, I've written a script package to parse and automatically unsubscribe list subscribers based on AOL's Email feedback reports for all the lists I host, using, among other things, mailman's python library and the withlist utility. These scripts depend on the existence of a non-privileged Mailman user account with a home dir of /usr/lib/mailman. Yes, I could hack the scripts to make things work, but I'm in the process of a major server move between Linux platforms from different distributions and my time is budgeted. Why was this done? It looks as if I'm going to have to install mailman from source on Ubuntu. I believe the Gentoo download, installed on my older servers, hewed much more closely to the methods and design of the Mailman devs, but I'm wondering what I'm missing here, or if the change was just due to lazy package design on Canonical's part. -- Lindsay Haisley | Real programmers use butterflies FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | - xkcd http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman
Lindsay Haisley wrote: I just installed, and just as promptly un-installed mailman on Ubuntu server 10.04.4 LTS. The offered pacakge version of mailman for this release, which I used, is 2.1.13-1. The Ubuntu packages are based on Debian. I have a few questions which perhaps someone could answer, if anyone knows the thinking behind Canonical's (and the package maintainer's) motives/reasons for what was done. The most awkward change, for me, is the elimination altogether of the mailman user. Mailman native scripts and utilities apparently get run as root, which as always brings up a whole kettle of security questions. They don't eliminate the Mailman user. They just call it 'list' rather than 'mailman'. On top of that, I've written a script package to parse and automatically unsubscribe list subscribers based on AOL's Email feedback reports for all the lists I host, using, among other things, mailman's python library and the withlist utility. These scripts depend on the existence of a non-privileged Mailman user account with a home dir of /usr/lib/mailman. I think 'list' satisfies this. Yes, I could hack the scripts to make things work, but I'm in the process of a major server move between Linux platforms from different distributions and my time is budgeted. Why was this done? Ask Debian and see the FAQ at http://wiki.list.org/x/OIDD. It looks as if I'm going to have to install mailman from source on Ubuntu. I believe the Gentoo download, installed on my older servers, hewed much more closely to the methods and design of the Mailman devs, but I'm wondering what I'm missing here, or if the change was just due to lazy package design on Canonical's part. Don't blame Canonical for Debian's decisions. Personally, I would always install from source on Debian/Ubuntu. Even though I run Ubuntu on some of my machines, I am not a fan of The Debian Way. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman
On May 11, 2012, at 02:15 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote: I just installed, and just as promptly un-installed mailman on Ubuntu server 10.04.4 LTS. The offered pacakge version of mailman for this release, which I used, is 2.1.13-1. I have a few questions which perhaps someone could answer, if anyone knows the thinking behind Canonical's (and the package maintainer's) motives/reasons for what was done. Unfortunately I can't provide any insight into the rationale, since (perhaps ironically ;) I don't participate in the maintenance of the Mailman package. I would just like to point out a few things that might be useful: - Canonical, or for that matter Ubuntu, isn't responsible for this change, since it comes straight from Debian. AFAICT, we carry no Ubuntu-specific deltas to the Debian package. I.e. it's a straight sync from Debian in Precise (12.04 LTS). AFAICT, Lucid (10.04.4 LTS) carries a couple of additional security updates, but this doesn't seem like the kind of change that would be made in a security update. - Probably the best way to get authoritative answers is to contact the Debian Mailman packaging team: pkg-mailman-hack...@lists.alioth.debian.org I don't know whether anyone from that team is on this list, or mailman-developers. Cheers, -Barry -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman
On Fri, 2012-05-11 at 12:30 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote: They don't eliminate the Mailman user. They just call it 'list' rather than 'mailman'. Actually, it's barely the same thing. It appears that qrunner gets run as user 'list' out of the mailman init script, but all other Mailman components are owned by root, group list, albeit all the executables have group execute enabled. I've twisted Mailman 2 in a number of ways, including integrating the namazu list search tool with it for my servers. I'll probably install it from source, as I've done previously, and run with it that way. It may make for more maintenance work later, but the initial installation will probably be easier, and it's only one of very many pieces on a new server which need to be hammered into shape. Thanks. -- Lindsay Haisley | Humor will get you through times of no humor FMP Computer Services | better than no humor will get you through 512-259-1190 | times of humor. http://www.fmp.com|- Butch Hancock -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 12:37:20PM -0700, Barry Warsaw wrote: - Probably the best way to get authoritative answers is to contact the Debian Mailman packaging team: pkg-mailman-hack...@lists.alioth.debian.org I don't know whether anyone from that team is on this list, or mailman-developers. I have been on that spam-infested-thanks-Debian-for-open-for-all list for some time, but I've still not pulled my finger out and joined the maintainers' team for Mailman... I believe at least one of the regular committers may be on one of the Mailman-*@python.org lists, as well as pkg-mailman-hackers. -- Bernard: I don't think Sir Humphrey understands economics, Prime Minister; he did read Classics, you know. Hacker: What about Sir Frank? He's head of the Treasury! Bernard: Well I'm afraid he's at an even greater disadvantage in understanding economics: he's an economist. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman
On 5/11/2012 2:30 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote: Lindsay Haisley wrote: I just installed, and just as promptly un-installed mailman on Ubuntu server 10.04.4 LTS. The offered pacakge version of mailman for this release, which I used, is 2.1.13-1. The Ubuntu packages are based on Debian. I have a few questions which perhaps someone could answer, if anyone knows the thinking behind Canonical's (and the package maintainer's) motives/reasons for what was done. The most awkward change, for me, is the elimination altogether of the mailman user. Mailman native scripts and utilities apparently get run as root, which as always brings up a whole kettle of security questions. They don't eliminate the Mailman user. They just call it 'list' rather than 'mailman'. On top of that, I've written a script package to parse and automatically unsubscribe list subscribers based on AOL's Email feedback reports for all the lists I host, using, among other things, mailman's python library and the withlist utility. These scripts depend on the existence of a non-privileged Mailman user account with a home dir of /usr/lib/mailman. I think 'list' satisfies this. Yes, I could hack the scripts to make things work, but I'm in the process of a major server move between Linux platforms from different distributions and my time is budgeted. Why was this done? Ask Debian and see the FAQ athttp://wiki.list.org/x/OIDD. It looks as if I'm going to have to install mailman from source on Ubuntu. I believe the Gentoo download, installed on my older servers, hewed much more closely to the methods and design of the Mailman devs, but I'm wondering what I'm missing here, or if the change was just due to lazy package design on Canonical's part. Don't blame Canonical for Debian's decisions. Personally, I would always install from source on Debian/Ubuntu. Even though I run Ubuntu on some of my machines, I am not a fan of The Debian Way. When I was running Mailman on an Ubuntu system, I looked at the Debian source changes, and I decided that most were not documented. I had no idea what they did. I decided to take the Ubuntu package and the SourceForge source and create my own package. It took me a while to do the initial package, but after that it was easy. I think that Mark has previously posted to this list that many of the Debian patches are not needed. There is one that is wrong - it deletes a library that is sometimes needed. If I needed assistance on Mailman, I could post to this list and get a quick response. --Barry Finkel -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman
Lindsay Haisley wrote: Actually, it's barely the same thing. It appears that qrunner gets run as user 'list' out of the mailman init script, but all other Mailman components are owned by root, group list, albeit all the executables have group execute enabled. So they're group 'list' and SETGID. Other than the name, how is that different from group 'mailman' and SETGID? The fact that they're owned by root is irrelevant. None assume any identity from the owner when run. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Lindsay Haisley fmouse-mail...@fmp.comwrote: On Fri, 2012-05-11 at 12:30 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote: They don't eliminate the Mailman user. They just call it 'list' rather than 'mailman'. Actually, it's barely the same thing. It appears that qrunner gets run as user 'list' out of the mailman init script, but all other Mailman components are owned by root, group list, albeit all the executables have group execute enabled. run /usr/lib/mailman/bin/check_perms the -f option will fix all those permissions. It will remove root as owner on all Mailman files. Mailman will still run just find on Ubuntu with the proper permissions set by this script. I'm told this isn't limited to Ubuntu, but that many other distros need to have the check_perms script run after any new install or upgrades. You may have to run the script more than once. If you want to fix the perms on the symlinks, you'll have to fix those manually with the - h option on chgrp. When you finish, check_perms will return no errors, you'll have all the permissions you want, and Mailman will run fine. I just went through all this. See the list archives for a whole thread with my questions on this topic. Everything is resolved now. I'm on Ubuntu 12.04. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman
On Fri, 2012-05-11 at 21:26 -0400, David wrote: On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Lindsay Haisley fmouse-mail...@fmp.com wrote: On Fri, 2012-05-11 at 12:30 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote: They don't eliminate the Mailman user. They just call it 'list' rather than 'mailman'. Actually, it's barely the same thing. It appears that qrunner gets run as user 'list' out of the mailman init script, but all other Mailman components are owned by root, group list, albeit all the executables have group execute enabled. run /usr/lib/mailman/bin/check_perms the -f option will fix all those permissions. It will remove root as owner on all Mailman files. Mailman will still run just find on Ubuntu with the proper permissions set by this script. I'm told this isn't limited to Ubuntu, but that many other distros need to have the check_perms script run after any new install or upgrades. You may have to run the script more than once. If you want to fix the perms on the symlinks, you'll have to fix those manually with the - h option on chgrp. When you finish, check_perms will return no errors, you'll have all the permissions you want, and Mailman will run fine. I just went through all this. See the list archives for a whole thread with my questions on this topic. Everything is resolved now. I'm on Ubuntu 12.04. Thanks, David. It's probably just as easy to bypass the precompiled Ubuntu package and work straight from the Mailman distribution. If I have issues, which are ususally creative problems with Python, I'd much rather work with the Mailman devs than with Canonical :-) -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
