Re: [Mailman-Users] slightly OT: on not becoming a spam source
On 5/29/08 11:37 PM, Jim Popovitch at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 12:18 AM, David Newman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmmm. I must be missing something, as the system is still associating each Message-ID with all 250 list subscribers. VERP has nothing to do with Message-ID, and everything to do with Return-Path and Sender: ;-) With VERP and personalization, the Return-Path, instead of being [EMAIL PROTECTED] becomes [EMAIL PROTECTED]. I think you said you're using Postfix in which case you need recipient_delimiter = + in your main.cf so it knows about the plus signs in the return paths. When you then get the AOL TOS e-mail, you can figure out who the list recipient was as while AOL redacts the AOL recipient, they don't touch the Return-Path. As you have observed, the original message-ID is still preserved. -- Larry Stone [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.stonejongleux.com/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] slightly OT: on not becoming a spam source
On 5/30/08 4:35 AM, Larry Stone wrote: On 5/29/08 11:37 PM, Jim Popovitch at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 12:18 AM, David Newman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmmm. I must be missing something, as the system is still associating each Message-ID with all 250 list subscribers. VERP has nothing to do with Message-ID, and everything to do with Return-Path and Sender: ;-) With VERP and personalization, the Return-Path, instead of being [EMAIL PROTECTED] becomes [EMAIL PROTECTED]. I think you said you're using Postfix in which case you need recipient_delimiter = + in your main.cf so it knows about the plus signs in the return paths. ACK. Yes, that's in main.cf. When you then get the AOL TOS e-mail, you can figure out who the list recipient was as while AOL redacts the AOL recipient, they don't touch the Return-Path. I wish this were true, but it appears AOL gets to the Return-Path too: Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] So neither Return-ID nor Message-ID identifies who's complaining. But...this might be something. The next message header contains an ESMTP ID that corresponds with exactly one AOL user in maillog: Received: from rly-mh07.mx.aol.com (rly-mh07.mail.aol.com [172.21.166.143]) by air-mh02.mail.aol.com (v121.4) with ESMTP id MAILINMH024-be4483f8d3acf; Fri, 30 May 2008 01:14:45 -0400 Received: from mail.somedomain.com (mail.somedomain.com [666.666.666.666]) by rly-mh07.mx.aol.com (v121.5) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINMH074-be4483f8d3acf; Fri, 30 May 2008 01:14:35 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.somedomain.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B55685B31C0 for redacted; Thu, 29 May 2008 22:14:34 - (UTC) [EMAIL PROTECTED]:log# grep -i B55685B31C0 /var/log/maillog May 29 22:14:34 mail postfix/smtpd[25785]: B55685B31C0: client=localhost[127.0.0.1] May 29 22:14:34 mail postfix/cleanup[21262]: B55685B31C0: message-id=[EMAIL PROTECTED] May 29 22:14:34 mail postfix/qmgr[23040]: B55685B31C0: from=[EMAIL PROTECTED], size=13344, nrcpt=1 (queue active) Given the above, is [EMAIL PROTECTED] the subscriber that's complaining? Or is it just a coincidence that that AOL user got listed first? many thanks dn -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] slightly OT: on not becoming a spam source
On Fri, 30 May 2008, David Newman wrote: When you then get the AOL TOS e-mail, you can figure out who the list recipient was as while AOL redacts the AOL recipient, they don't touch the Return-Path. I wish this were true, but it appears AOL gets to the Return-Path too: Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hmmm. I had one as recently as 5/15 and Return-Path was not touched nor some of the other places the address appears. It is frustrating that AOL wants to stop the unwanted e-mail but tries to make it difficult to figure out who is complaining. Date: Thu, 15 May 2008 20:02:11 EDT From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Client TOS Notification Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: from rly-yc03.mail.aol.com (rly-yc03.mail.aol.com [172.18.205.146]) by air-yc04.mail.aol.com (v121.4) with ESMTP id MAILINYC44-1c4478a76c82e5; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 15:38:43 -0500 Received: from albion.stonejongleux.com (albion.stonejongleux.com [66.92.131.28]) by rly-yc03.mail.aol.com (v121.4) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINYC32-1c4478a76c82e5; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 15:38:33 -0500 Received: from albion.stonejongleux.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by albion.stonejongleux.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34DAC2A5C24F for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:38:32 -0600 (CST) X-Original-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: from [192.168.1.72] (unknown [192.168.1.72]) by albion.stonejongleux.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E2312A5C1F1 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Sun, 13 Jan 2008 14:38:27 -0600 (CST) ... Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Errors-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-AOL-IP: 66.92.131.28 X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: listenair ; SPF_helo : n X-AOL-SCOLL-AUTHENTICATION: listenair ; SPF_822_from : + X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) So neither Return-ID nor Message-ID identifies who's complaining. But...this might be something. The next message header contains an ESMTP ID that corresponds with exactly one AOL user in maillog: Received: from rly-mh07.mx.aol.com (rly-mh07.mail.aol.com [172.21.166.143]) by air-mh02.mail.aol.com (v121.4) with ESMTP id MAILINMH024-be4483f8d3acf; Fri, 30 May 2008 01:14:45 -0400 Received: from mail.somedomain.com (mail.somedomain.com [666.666.666.666]) by rly-mh07.mx.aol.com (v121.5) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINMH074-be4483f8d3acf; Fri, 30 May 2008 01:14:35 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.somedomain.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B55685B31C0 for redacted; Thu, 29 May 2008 22:14:34 - (UTC) [EMAIL PROTECTED]:log# grep -i B55685B31C0 /var/log/maillog May 29 22:14:34 mail postfix/smtpd[25785]: B55685B31C0: client=localhost[127.0.0.1] May 29 22:14:34 mail postfix/cleanup[21262]: B55685B31C0: message-id=[EMAIL PROTECTED] May 29 22:14:34 mail postfix/qmgr[23040]: B55685B31C0: from=[EMAIL PROTECTED], size=13344, nrcpt=1 (queue active) Given the above, is [EMAIL PROTECTED] the subscriber that's complaining? Or is it just a coincidence that that AOL user got listed first? I think so. With personalization on, Mailman is generating a separate e-mail for each user which passes through Postfix as separate messages with a unique ID in Postfix. Without personalization, Mailman could pass as few as one message to the MTA and let the MTA split it into all the destinations. With personalization, the message for each user comes to the MTA as a separate message. One of the tradeoffs of personalization is the increased workload for Mailman and the MTA. -- Larry Stone [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] slightly OT: on not becoming a spam source
On 5/30/08 8:40 AM, Larry Stone wrote: On Fri, 30 May 2008, David Newman wrote: When you then get the AOL TOS e-mail, you can figure out who the list recipient was as while AOL redacts the AOL recipient, they don't touch the Return-Path. I wish this were true, but it appears AOL gets to the Return-Path too: Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hmmm. I had one as recently as 5/15 and Return-Path was not touched nor some of the other places the address appears. It is frustrating that AOL wants to stop the unwanted e-mail but tries to make it difficult to figure out who is complaining. Indeed. I got my case escalated, and at first the AOL postmaster was responsive, but I haven't heard back since pointing this out a few days ago. Given the above, is [EMAIL PROTECTED] the subscriber that's complaining? Or is it just a coincidence that that AOL user got listed first? I think so. With personalization on, Mailman is generating a separate e-mail for each user which passes through Postfix as separate messages with a unique ID in Postfix. Without personalization, Mailman could pass as few as one message to the MTA and let the MTA split it into all the destinations. With personalization, the message for each user comes to the MTA as a separate message. One of the tradeoffs of personalization is the increased workload for Mailman and the MTA. Initially I thought the changes I made to mailman would result in a unique Message-ID per recipient, but this does not appear to be the case. For future reference, are these the only mailman change needed to get unique ESMTP IDs? 1. in mm_cfg.py, add OWNERS_CAN_ENABLE_PERSONALIZATION = Yes 2. enable personalization for the list in the Web UI If so, that may be good enough to catch who's complaining. thanks much dn -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] slightly OT: on not becoming a spam source
David Newman wrote: Given the above, is [EMAIL PROTECTED] the subscriber that's complaining? Or is it just a coincidence that that AOL user got listed first? Since you're now sending just one message for each recipient, you will get unique queue ids assigned by your MTA for each and every message, and most MTAs will record those in the Received: headers. You seem to have found what looks like a unique queue id from postfix, and that should lead you to one and only one message. You might also get unique message-ids if you're doing Full Personalization, but that shouldn't be necessary in this case. -- Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] Member of the Python.org Postmaster Team Co-Moderator of the mailman-users and mailman-developers mailing lists -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] slightly OT: on not becoming a spam source
David Newman writes: Initially I thought the changes I made to mailman would result in a unique Message-ID per recipient, but this does not appear to be the case. Yeah, somebody actually said that, but they really meant the Return-Path. Changing Message-ID on regular posts would violate RFC 2822. Message-ID ids the content, not the medium, and is an author header: intermediate senders like Mailman must not touch it. There is a Resent-Message-ID that Mailman can set, but I don't know if that would get returned by AOL. Something has to be done to throw some of the burden back on these ISPs. I wonder if something along the lines of a monthly message like To our valued AOL subscribers: Because AOL's [privacy policy] has the inadvertant side effect of [making it impossible to determine who wants out], while their [unwanted mail policy] means that failure to address these complaints causes AOL to [refuse our mail to you], we have adopted a policy of [continuous opt-in]. Your address will be automatically be set to no-mail in our database at TIME-DATE-ONE-WEEK-FROM-NOW. To continue receiving our notices, please visit [your personal page] and renew your subscription at any time. You may wish to check the [archives of past messages] in case you missed any. [Yes, keep sending me NAME-OF-LIST.] Sincerely yours, Da Management might make the point. (The brackets [] show location of links to pages whose intended content should be clear.) To make this minimally annoying to the subscriber, there could be one-click links, and the resubscription interval could be per-user-configurable (with the default being every 15 minutes for AOLusers to ensure that they don't receive any unwanted postswink). Obviously this isn't going to work very well if you have a newsletter that is primarily of benefit to you for advertising etc, while the clients put marginal value on it. So it's just an idle daydream There might be something to the continuous opt-in idea with appropriate support from Mailman, though, as that would provide evidence that the user is being a jerk by hitting the spam button, when they could just let the subscription lapse. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] slightly OT: on not becoming a spam source
On May 30, 2008, at 11:00 AM, David Newman wrote: On 5/30/08 4:35 AM, Larry Stone wrote: On 5/29/08 11:37 PM, Jim Popovitch at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 12:18 AM, David Newman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmmm. I must be missing something, as the system is still associating each Message-ID with all 250 list subscribers. VERP has nothing to do with Message-ID, and everything to do with Return-Path and Sender: ;-) With VERP and personalization, the Return-Path, instead of being [EMAIL PROTECTED] becomes [EMAIL PROTECTED]. I think you said you're using Postfix in which case you need recipient_delimiter = + in your main.cf so it knows about the plus signs in the return paths. ACK. Yes, that's in main.cf. When you then get the AOL TOS e-mail, you can figure out who the list recipient was as while AOL redacts the AOL recipient, they don't touch the Return-Path. I wish this were true, but it appears AOL gets to the Return-Path too: Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] So neither Return-ID nor Message-ID identifies who's complaining. But...this might be something. The next message header contains an ESMTP ID that corresponds with exactly one AOL user in maillog: Received: from rly-mh07.mx.aol.com (rly-mh07.mail.aol.com [172.21.166.143]) by air-mh02.mail.aol.com (v121.4) with ESMTP id MAILINMH024-be4483f8d3acf; Fri, 30 May 2008 01:14:45 -0400 Received: from mail.somedomain.com (mail.somedomain.com [666.666.666.666]) by rly-mh07.mx.aol.com (v121.5) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINMH074-be4483f8d3acf; Fri, 30 May 2008 01:14:35 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.somedomain.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B55685B31C0 for redacted; Thu, 29 May 2008 22:14:34 - (UTC) [EMAIL PROTECTED]:log# grep -i B55685B31C0 /var/log/maillog May 29 22:14:34 mail postfix/smtpd[25785]: B55685B31C0: client=localhost[127.0.0.1] May 29 22:14:34 mail postfix/cleanup[21262]: B55685B31C0: message- id=[EMAIL PROTECTED] May 29 22:14:34 mail postfix/qmgr[23040]: B55685B31C0: from=[EMAIL PROTECTED] , size=13344, nrcpt=1 (queue active) Given the above, is [EMAIL PROTECTED] the subscriber that's complaining? Or is it just a coincidence that that AOL user got listed first? Ostensibly, AOL does this to prevent listwashing, but it's not exactly helpful. I think AOL strips out a lot of the message headers in the TOS reports, so you don't get all of the Received headers and message- ids. How I dealt with it is that I made a custom footer in the VERP configuration that says something like: This e-mail was delivered to foobar at aol.com I suppose that it would be better if you could somehow stick that in to a hash that only you could decipher, especially if AOL decides at some point to strip all e-mail addresses out of the messages, but it's better than nothing. That shows up in the TOS messages, I stuff them all into a mailbox and then have a script that grabs the addresses from the footer and unsubscribes those addresses. I also got some good advice I think from someone on this list to put a gentle reminder at the top of each message with the unsub links etc right there. It says something like You are receiving this message because you subscribed to the blah blah newsletter on the example.com website. Also, maybe you are already doing this, but a gentle reminder for you that may help with these AOL reports, you should absolutely require people to confirm their subscription and not just add them to the mailing list, even if they provided their e-mail address some other way for example filled out a comment card at an event. If people can't be bothered to confirm their subscription, then they can't be bothered to follow the instructions to unsubscribe either and will just click the Report Spam button when they no longer wish to receive the newsletter. Things used to be different, but now days failing to confirm subscriptions can get you blacklisted, and even your website taken offline. That actually happened to someone who ignored my insistence that they should require confirmations, arguing that it would be too difficult for their newsletter subscribers. many thanks dn -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jonathan%40nerds.net Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives:
Re: [Mailman-Users] slightly OT: on not becoming a spam source
Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: Yeah, somebody actually said that, but they really meant the Return-Path. Changing Message-ID on regular posts would violate RFC 2822. Message-ID ids the content, not the medium, and is an author header: intermediate senders like Mailman must not touch it. IIRC, when you enable Full Personalization, enough changes are made to the message that it ends up being considered a completely new message, and therefore a new message-id is created. Same for list anonymization. Certainly, when you turn on personalization, you can enable certain values to be used in the footer of each message being sent out that will tell you the original e-mail address that it was addressed to, and if the redacting covers only the headers and not the footer, then you might see that. But either way, even you turn on just regular personalization and don't make any modifications to the message, you will get unique queue-ids that you can work with and compare against data in your logs. -- Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] Member of the Python.org Postmaster Team Co-Moderator of the mailman-users and mailman-developers mailing lists -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] slightly OT: on not becoming a spam source
On 5/30/08 3:28 PM, Brad Knowles wrote: Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: Yeah, somebody actually said that, but they really meant the Return-Path. Changing Message-ID on regular posts would violate RFC 2822. Message-ID ids the content, not the medium, and is an author header: intermediate senders like Mailman must not touch it. IIRC, when you enable Full Personalization, enough changes are made to the message that it ends up being considered a completely new message, and therefore a new message-id is created. Same for list anonymization. That didn't happen, at least with my setup. grep'ing on the Message-ID provided by AOL still returned the email addresses of all list subscribers. Certainly, when you turn on personalization, you can enable certain values to be used in the footer of each message being sent out that will tell you the original e-mail address that it was addressed to, and if the redacting covers only the headers and not the footer, then you might see that. But either way, even you turn on just regular personalization and don't make any modifications to the message, you will get unique queue-ids that you can work with and compare against data in your logs. Yes, that appears to have worked. At least so far after I unsubscribed the problem user, posts to this particular list have not resulted in spam reports from AOL. dn -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] slightly OT: on not becoming a spam source
On 5/28/08 8:43 PM, Larry Stone wrote: On 5/28/08 9:26 PM, David Newman at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Another is to enable VERP for your outgoing messages, this allows you to track the message ID to the individual user. That sounds very promising, thanks. Trying it now... I have all my lists VERPed for just that reason. Once I figure out who it is, they get unsubscribed with extreme prejudice (meaning they also get banned from the mail server). But you should be aware that will increase your outgoing mail load. Nothing I do is high enough frequency for that to be an issue but it can be for some people. Most of my lists are announcement lists. In fact, for some of them, the recipients aren't even aware it's a mailing list. I (as a side job) assign soccer referees for local leagues. Rather than sending out announcements to my referees with a long BCC: list, I add them to a private mailman list with VERP so they receive them with them as the To: recipient. That also lets me know who to remove when they decide that the easiest way to let me know that they're no longer interested in being notified of available games is to do a report as spam. :-( OK, I've enabled VERP but I'm no closer to isolating who's complaining in AOL-land. Possibly this is some VERP config error on my part. I added the following to mm_cfg.py and rebooted: VERP_PASSWORD_REMINDERS = Yes VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES = Yes VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = Yes VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = 1 The next AOL feedback report contained a unique Message-ID, as always. grep'ing for that ID in /usr/local/mailman/logs tells me only that the message was delivered to 250 recipients in 65 seconds. grep'ing for that ID in /var/log/maillog produces a lot more output -- in fact, still one entry per mailing list subscriber. I've pasted one example below (addresses redacted); there are 250 of these in maillog. So, back to the original question: How to associate one message-ID with one subscriber? Many thanks dn May 29 10:01:22 mail amavis[24936]: (24936-17) Passed CLEAN, LOCAL [127.0.0.1] [ 207.178.164.26] [EMAIL PROTECTED] - [EMAIL PROTECTED], Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED], mail_id : KdgO9YwQBfML, Hits: -2.403, size: 18328, queued_as: 482E25B31D5, 12089 ms May 29 10:01:22 mail postfix/cleanup[26083]: 913255B31D7: message-id=627766.373 [EMAIL PROTECTED] May 29 10:01:22 mail postfix/cleanup[31531]: BE4745B31D8: message-id=627766.373 [EMAIL PROTECTED] May 29 10:01:22 mail postfix/cleanup[26083]: D9C2E5B31D9: message-id=627766.373 [EMAIL PROTECTED] May 29 10:01:23 mail postfix/cleanup[31531]: 47F645B31DA: message-id=627766.373 [EMAIL PROTECTED] May 29 10:01:23 mail postfix/cleanup[26083]: 6E0D65B31DB: message-id=627766.373 [EMAIL PROTECTED] May 29 10:01:23 mail postfix/cleanup[31531]: 876B85B31DC: message-id=627766.373 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] slightly OT: on not becoming a spam source
David Newman wrote: OK, I've enabled VERP but I'm no closer to isolating who's complaining in AOL-land. Possibly this is some VERP config error on my part. I added the following to mm_cfg.py and rebooted: VERP_PASSWORD_REMINDERS = Yes VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES = Yes VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = Yes VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = 1 The next AOL feedback report contained a unique Message-ID, as always. Did you go back to the list configuration and turn on personalization? -- Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] Member of the Python.org Postmaster Team Co-Moderator of the mailman-users and mailman-developers mailing lists -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] slightly OT: on not becoming a spam source
On 5/29/08 11:40 AM, Brad Knowles wrote: David Newman wrote: OK, I've enabled VERP but I'm no closer to isolating who's complaining in AOL-land. Possibly this is some VERP config error on my part. I added the following to mm_cfg.py and rebooted: VERP_PASSWORD_REMINDERS = Yes VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES = Yes VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = Yes VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = 1 The next AOL feedback report contained a unique Message-ID, as always. Did you go back to the list configuration and turn on personalization? Er, no, I haven't. Where do I set that in the Web UI? thanks dn -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] slightly OT: on not becoming a spam source
David Newman wrote: On 5/29/08 11:40 AM, Brad Knowles wrote: David Newman wrote: OK, I've enabled VERP but I'm no closer to isolating who's complaining in AOL-land. Possibly this is some VERP config error on my part. I added the following to mm_cfg.py and rebooted: VERP_PASSWORD_REMINDERS = Yes VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES = Yes VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = Yes VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = 1 The next AOL feedback report contained a unique Message-ID, as always. Did you go back to the list configuration and turn on personalization? Er, no, I haven't. Where do I set that in the Web UI? End original message. - Should be in the list general options. I am not sure, but you may have to do a Mailman restart to enable it. Dragon ~~~ Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus) ~~~ -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] slightly OT: on not becoming a spam source
At 01:53 PM 5/29/2008, David Newman wrote: On 5/29/08 11:40 AM, Brad Knowles wrote: David Newman wrote: OK, I've enabled VERP but I'm no closer to isolating who's complaining in AOL-land. Possibly this is some VERP config error on my part. I added the following to mm_cfg.py and rebooted: VERP_PASSWORD_REMINDERS = Yes VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES = Yes VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = Yes VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = 1 The next AOL feedback report contained a unique Message-ID, as always. Did you go back to the list configuration and turn on personalization? Er, no, I haven't. Where do I set that in the Web UI? thanks dn DA: It is under Nondigest Options. Dave -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/dandrews%40visi.com Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp David Andrews and white cane Harry. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] slightly OT: on not becoming a spam source
On 5/29/08 12:09 PM, David Andrews wrote: Did you go back to the list configuration and turn on personalization? Er, no, I haven't. Where do I set that in the Web UI? thanks dn DA: It is under Nondigest Options. Sorry for being dense, but where? These are the only choices I see under nondigest options: nondigestable msg_header msg_footer scrub_nondigest and under sibling lists: regular_exclude_lists regular_include_lists dn -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] slightly OT: on not becoming a spam source
It is between the first and second choices you listed. Since it isn't there, I would guess you need to stop and restart Mailman so the configuration file is reprocessed. Dave At 03:02 PM 5/29/2008, David Newman wrote: On 5/29/08 12:09 PM, David Andrews wrote: Did you go back to the list configuration and turn on personalization? Er, no, I haven't. Where do I set that in the Web UI? thanks dn DA: It is under Nondigest Options. Sorry for being dense, but where? These are the only choices I see under nondigest options: nondigestable msg_header msg_footer scrub_nondigest and under sibling lists: regular_exclude_lists regular_include_lists dn -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/dandrews%40visi.com Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp David Andrews and white cane Harry. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] slightly OT: on not becoming a spam source
On Thu, 29 May 2008, David Newman wrote: Possibly this is some VERP config error on my part. I added the following to mm_cfg.py and rebooted: VERP_PASSWORD_REMINDERS = Yes VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES = Yes VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = Yes VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = 1 You also need OWNERS_CAN_ENABLE_PERSONALIZATION = Yes Once you do that, the personalization option will appear on the appropriate admin page. You will probably need to restart httpd for it to appear. I doubt restarting the qrunners will be needed. -- Larry Stone [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] slightly OT: on not becoming a spam source
On 5/29/08 1:46 PM, Larry Stone wrote: On Thu, 29 May 2008, David Newman wrote: Possibly this is some VERP config error on my part. I added the following to mm_cfg.py and rebooted: VERP_PASSWORD_REMINDERS = Yes VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES = Yes VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = Yes VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = 1 You also need OWNERS_CAN_ENABLE_PERSONALIZATION = Yes Once you do that, the personalization option will appear on the appropriate admin page. You will probably need to restart httpd for it to appear. I doubt restarting the qrunners will be needed. Hmmm. I must be missing something, as the system is still associating each Message-ID with all 250 list subscribers. This is in mm_cfg.py: VERP_PASSWORD_REMINDERS = Yes VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES = Yes VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = Yes VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = 1 OWNERS_CAN_ENABLE_PERSONALIZATION = Yes and under Non-digest options, peronsalize is set to Full Personaliztion and I restarted mailman, apache, and postfix after all this. What else might be missing? many thanks dn -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] slightly OT: on not becoming a spam source
On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 12:18 AM, David Newman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmmm. I must be missing something, as the system is still associating each Message-ID with all 250 list subscribers. VERP has nothing to do with Message-ID, and everything to do with Return-Path and Sender: ;-) -Jim P. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
[Mailman-Users] slightly OT: on not becoming a spam source
One or more AOL subscribers is reporting posts to one of our mailing lists as spam. Every time there's a post to this list, both we and our upstream provider get a feedback report from AOL. This report provides the message-ID for the offending email, but not the recipient's address. AOL claims I should be able to find the offended recipient(s) with just the message-ID, but I do not believe they are correct about that. grep'ing for the message-ID in maillog returns *all* of the ~250 recipients for each post. I would like to find which AOL user(s) are complaining and unsubscribe them. One method would be to write a script that sends an individual email containing a unique ID to each subscriber, and see if AOL sends feedback complaint(s) for those. Questions: 1. In putting together a script, do I need to include this header: Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (mylist and example.org are fact-free examples) 2. Is there some better way of isolating a given recipient if all I have from a spam report is a single message-ID? This is on OpenBSD 4.2 running postfix 2.4.3 and mailman 2.1.10. Many thanks! dn -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] slightly OT: on not becoming a spam source
Quoting David Newman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): One or more AOL subscribers is reporting posts to one of our mailing lists as spam. Every time there's a post to this list, both we and our upstream provider get a feedback report from AOL. This report provides the message-ID for the offending email, but not the recipient's address. AOL claims I should be able to find the offended recipient(s) with just the message-ID, but I do not believe they are correct about that. grep'ing for the message-ID in maillog returns *all* of the ~250 recipients for each post. Well, how many of those 250 use AOL email addresses? That'll narrow it down. I would like to find which AOL user(s) are complaining and unsubscribe them. One method would be to write a script that sends an individual email containing a unique ID to each subscriber, and see if AOL sends feedback complaint(s) for those. This is probably one way. Another is to enable VERP for your outgoing messages, this allows you to track the message ID to the individual user. dd -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] slightly OT: on not becoming a spam source
On 5/28/08 7:09 PM, Dave Dewey wrote: Quoting David Newman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): One or more AOL subscribers is reporting posts to one of our mailing lists as spam. Every time there's a post to this list, both we and our upstream provider get a feedback report from AOL. This report provides the message-ID for the offending email, but not the recipient's address. AOL claims I should be able to find the offended recipient(s) with just the message-ID, but I do not believe they are correct about that. grep'ing for the message-ID in maillog returns *all* of the ~250 recipients for each post. Well, how many of those 250 use AOL email addresses? That'll narrow it down. Only around 15 percent are @aol.com addresses but unfortunately AOL has other domains such as @netscape.com, @bigfoot.com, and possibly others, all of which get handled by the AOL postmaster. I don't have an exhaustive list; while it's mostly likely some user in @aol.com-land, I can't say for sure. This is probably one way. Another is to enable VERP for your outgoing messages, this allows you to track the message ID to the individual user. That sounds very promising, thanks. Trying it now... dn -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] slightly OT: on not becoming a spam source
On 5/28/08 9:26 PM, David Newman at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Another is to enable VERP for your outgoing messages, this allows you to track the message ID to the individual user. That sounds very promising, thanks. Trying it now... I have all my lists VERPed for just that reason. Once I figure out who it is, they get unsubscribed with extreme prejudice (meaning they also get banned from the mail server). But you should be aware that will increase your outgoing mail load. Nothing I do is high enough frequency for that to be an issue but it can be for some people. Most of my lists are announcement lists. In fact, for some of them, the recipients aren't even aware it's a mailing list. I (as a side job) assign soccer referees for local leagues. Rather than sending out announcements to my referees with a long BCC: list, I add them to a private mailman list with VERP so they receive them with them as the To: recipient. That also lets me know who to remove when they decide that the easiest way to let me know that they're no longer interested in being notified of available games is to do a report as spam. :-( -- Larry Stone [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.stonejongleux.com/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
