Re: [Mailman-Users] what constitutes spam?
Anne Wainwright writes: This clearly makes the point that spam is defined by two factors A message is Spam only if it is both Unsolicited and Bulk That's true, but as far as I can remember definitions of UCE (unsolicited commercial email) have no such restriction to bulk. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] what constitutes spam?
Anne Wainwright writes: I have sinned and stand repentant. I hate spam as much as anyone and we get plenty to deal with. Somehow the Viagra and get rich emails didn't seem to stand on the same level as a once-off invite. They don't, from the point of view of the sender or society at large. But for the recipient As an aside, I have to ask whether the 'invite' feature in Mailman has a function. Sure. As Mark points out, it confirms the intention of the user to join, which gives you the double opt-in property that gives a conservative litmus test for not spam. I think it might be a useful question to ask, how can the invite feature be made more functional? In particular, if you've written a careful email, answering an inquiry, I see nothing spammy about adding a Mailman invite to that ... if it were possible, which currently it isn't, from any mail client I know of. OTOH, you could write that email using Mailman's invite interface, but I bet you'd get tired of that real quick. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] what constitutes spam?
Hi, On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 09:33:03PM -0500, Brad Knowles wrote: On May 18, 2012, at 5:14 PM, Anne Wainwright wrote: For the record the following URL is of interest http://www.spamhaus.org/consumer/definition/ This clearly makes the point that spam is defined by two factors A message is Spam only if it is both Unsolicited and Bulk and being who they are their definition must carry some weight. In terms of their definition my mailing was not spam. Still, and I think Stephen made the point, there is also the consideration of good business practice to be considered. Actually, if you go back to Mark's message where he said: As an additional FYI in this thread, Mailman sends invitations with a Precedence: bulk header. This can only be changed by modifying code. Thanks for clarifying that, Brad, I wasn't sure what the import of Mark's messsage was. Why would this not be set to 'list' rather than 'bulk'? Just interested bestest Anne Then you will note that the message you sent does actually qualify on both counts -- it was most definitely unsolicited (by your own account), and unless you modified the source code then Mailman definitely marked those invitations as bulk. Even if Mailman hadn't marked the messages as bulk per se, if you sent out invitations to more than one person, then that could also be classified as essentially being bulk. There are features in Mailman that can be misused and abused in a wide variety of ways, and it is the responsibility of the Site Administrator(s) and the List Administrator(s) to make sure that they operate the software in an appropriate manner. For example, if you were using Mailman internally to your company and could guarantee that no one could ever get on any list unless they were an employee, then by the terms of the employment contract you might be able to do things that might otherwise be considered of a spammy nature, like requiring that all employees be subscribed to certain lists that they can't unsubscribe from, sending out invitations to join mailing lists that they did not request, etc…. We have to allow for these kinds of things because not everyone uses Mailman in the same way for the same user community. And some types of actions are appropriate for certain user communities but not for others. We can't just disable or remove features simply because they are not appropriate for a particular user community. In essence, you're asking us to protect you against yourself, and there is a limit to how much of that we can do. At least, there is a limit to how much we can do if we want to keep the software usable for other people. -- Brad Knowles b...@shub-internet.org LinkedIn Profile: http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] what constitutes spam?
On 5/18/12 6:14 PM, Anne Wainwright wrote: Hi, For the record the following URL is of interest http://www.spamhaus.org/consumer/definition/ This clearly makes the point that spam is defined by two factors A message is Spam only if it is both Unsolicited and Bulk and being who they are their definition must carry some weight. In terms of their definition my mailing was not spam. Still, and I think Stephen made the point, there is also the consideration of good business practice to be considered. over out for tonight. Anne I will point out that from the recipients point of view, a mailman invite looks to be Bulk, they have no way to know if you sent it specifically to them or to a large list. A place like spamhaus can use bulk as part of their criteria, and see if essentially the same message is sent out repeatedly, an individual recipient generally can not, so their version of the bulk criteria is does it look like a mass mailing. One way around this is rather than us the mailman invite feature, write a personal email where you invite the person to subscribe, giving the url of the subscription page as a pointer. While you can't prevent someone from pressing the This is spam button, if you have done some pre-vetting to be sure the person is likely interested, and made the message clearly personal and not bulk, will minimize the chances of them doing so. -- Richard Damon -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] what constitutes spam?
... On 5/19/2012 10:46 AM, Richard Damon wrote: I will point out that from the recipients point of view, a mailman invite looks to be Bulk, they have no way to know if you sent it specifically to them or to a large list. ... One way around this is rather than us the mailman invite feature, write a personal email where you invite the person to subscribe, giving the url of the subscription page as a pointer. Even tho I'm with a cPanel instal by serious dumb luck I having been doing exactly that for over a decade since I started my 1st List which was actually begged for ;-) by a bunch of folks on another Public List which did/does not allow attachments. I have no clue as to why I didn't just Mass Subscribe. I sent out Personal Invites with the Subscribe URL. Something about the Mass Sub. just didn't feel right. While you can't prevent someone from pressing the This is spam button, I have just about reached the breaking point and maybe one (1) more and I'm gonna ban AOL (Yahoo not far behind these days) users. if you have done some pre-vetting to be sure the person is likely interested, and made the message clearly personal and not bulk, will minimize the chances of them doing so. Absolutely agreed, Richard ! ! Thank you for posting something in this thread that applies to MM Users such as myself who ARE stuck behind cPanel :-[ :-) ! ! Ed Please visit MY site at: www.justbrits.com PS: Anyone interested in a slow ( 3- 4 /day) Joke List by MM, please drop me a note :-) ! ! Ooops, and/or a small Political List (Poly Sci101). -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] what constitutes spam?
On 5/19/2012 2:13 AM, Anne Wainwright wrote: Why would this not be set to 'list' rather than 'bulk'? List posts are sent with Precedence: list. Notices from Mailman, e.g. held message notices to an admin, invitations and welcome messages to users, password reminders, etc. are all sent with Precedence: bulk. Prior to Mailman 2.1, everything was sent with Precedence: bulk, even list posts. Comments in the Mailman 1.0 code say # semi-controversial: some don't want this included at all, others # want the value to be `list'. RFC 2076 (Feb 1997) says the Precedence: header is non-standard, controversial, discouraged. See the RFC http://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2076.txt for the precise definition of these terms. We probably shouldn't be adding it at all, but as to why, other than the above code comment, some things are sent with Precedence: bulk you'd have to ask John Viega or someone with more knowledge of the history than I have. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] what constitutes spam?
On May 19, 2012, at 4:13 AM, Anne Wainwright wrote: Thanks for clarifying that, Brad, I wasn't sure what the import of Mark's messsage was. Why would this not be set to 'list' rather than 'bulk'? According to RFC 2076, the Precedence: header is Non-standard, controversial, discouraged. RFC 3834 says: - A responder MAY refuse to send a response to a subject message which contains any header or content which makes it appear to the responder that a response would not be appropriate. For instance, if the subject message contained a Precedence header field [I4.RFC2076] with a value of list the responder might guess that the traffic had arrived from a mailing list, and would not respond if the response were only intended for personal messages. For similar reasons, a responder MAY ignore any subject message with a List-* field [I5.RFC2369]. (Because Precedence is not a standard header field, and its use and interpretation vary widely in the wild, no particular responder behavior in the presence of Precedence is recommended by this specification.) and: 3.1.8. Precedence field A response MAY include a Precedence field [I4.RFC2076] in order to discourage responses from some kinds of responders which predate this specification. The field-body of the Precedence field MAY consist of the text junk, list, bulk, or other text deemed appropriate by the responder. Because the Precedence field is non-standard and its interpretation varies widely, the use of Precedence is not specifically recommended by this specification, nor does this specification recommend any particular value for that field. Historically, the Precedence: header has generally only had one standard value that I know of, if it was used at all -- and that value is bulk. The original intent of this header (and this setting) was to help automated systems that receive mail messages to determine whether or not a message was originated by a human being or was perhaps automatically generated or handled through a mailing list -- at the time, there was no such negative connotation to the word bulk and no one would have distinguished between bulk mail and mail sent through a list. Over the years, things have changed, but the usage of this particular header has only gotten murkier. Mailman is one of the few programs on the Internet that has been fairly consistent in the way it has handled this header. Of course, Mailman is only handling one end of the conversation, and it can't control what people on the other end do with the header. If we change the way Mailman works in this regard, we might break existing programs. If we don't change the way Mailman works in this regard, people on the other end might not understand what is really intended. -- Brad Knowles b...@shub-internet.org LinkedIn Profile: http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] what constitutes spam?
Hi, Have been offline for a goodly while hence tardy response to the thread that I started. comments lower down, but thanks to Brad, Richard, Mark, Stephen for their input. On Fri, May 04, 2012 at 12:33:24AM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 4:39 PM, Anne Wainwright anothera...@fables.co.za wrote: I recently sent an invite to an unknown third party. Normally I agree with Brad Knowles on this kind of thing, but this time I can't go 100%. People regularly do make contacts with third parties that they have not previously met, with the intent of arranging mutually beneficial activities. Heck, if you think about it, that's what you're doing every time you make a first post to a mailing list. There is nothing wrong with that in general, and there is nothing (morally) wrong with that when done by email, to recipients carefully selected for high probability of getting some interest. (From this point of view, double opt in is just a useful, fail-safe litmus test for recipient interest, not the moral imperative some seem to think it is.) Obviously you think your mailing has passed that test. That said, it's bad business IMO (except in cases like a double opt-in mailing list where every person has explicitly indicated interest in receiving list posts). What *you* think isn't what really matters. When done by mutual acquaintance, by phone, or even by form letter, there are significant costs to making such contacts, especially when you do the phoning yourself. You must really value the recipient to go to such expense, even if small. There are no such costs to email, which means that using email as a medium puts you in company with some real scum, who send out unsolicited email indiscriminately, sometimes laden with malware or phishing URLs. It's unfair, I suppose, but I'm not surprised if you get classed with the scum on the basis of the only information the recipient has about you as a businessperson: an email that they didn't ask for. There's another problem. The ISPs are a pretty quick-on-the-trigger bunch, too, as a couple of posters have noted. But if you're not running a double opt-in list, you're not going to be able to get them to change your minds about your list. Everything I know about them, they'd rather lose half their clients' mail than get a complaint about spam. And their customers are not well-informed enough to doubt the ISPs when they blame somebody else for any problems with mail. Except spam -- it's obvious to the customer that the spam is bogus, why is it so hard for the ISP? You see their incentive, I suppose, and it works against legitimate businesses unless they follow the ISPs' rules. I conclude that for an honest business, anything is a better way than email to make first contact with a third party who doesn't know you. I have sinned and stand repentant. I hate spam as much as anyone and we get plenty to deal with. Somehow the Viagra and get rich emails didn't seem to stand on the same level as a once-off invite. But as pointed out clearly an unasked for email from an unknown party is just that. In the light of the spam that we receive, which varies from worldwide mass mailings (viagra supplies from pharmacies in the USA, say) to lesser attempts (local suppliers of this that product or service) there is no fuzzy line where the definition of spam rests, and much against my normal judgement where I see things in shades of grey, I am forced to make this a black and white decision on the basis of the definitions of spam made in the replies. So will make sure that this doesn't occur again and will make clear the distinction to other staff handling these issues. As an aside, I have to ask whether the 'invite' feature in Mailman has a function. If one has to have been in existing contact such that you can ask them if they would not object to an invite then one is in fact at the point where you can ask them point blank if you can subscribe them. Typically someone may query whether we have a specific book title, or whether one listed on an online catalogue is still available. The usual drill if this is unavailable is to say so and then recommend that they join our mailing list for which we will send details (an 'invite') on the basis that it may show up on a future catalogue. I do not see this as sending spam. Maybe you differ? I guess this may be considered a bit off-topic, comments welcome direct if you feel this is so. bestest Anne Regards, Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/anotheranne%40fables.co.za
Re: [Mailman-Users] what constitutes spam?
Hi, For the record the following URL is of interest http://www.spamhaus.org/consumer/definition/ This clearly makes the point that spam is defined by two factors A message is Spam only if it is both Unsolicited and Bulk and being who they are their definition must carry some weight. In terms of their definition my mailing was not spam. Still, and I think Stephen made the point, there is also the consideration of good business practice to be considered. over out for tonight. Anne On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 09:39:44AM +0200, Anne Wainwright wrote: Hi, I recently sent an invite to an unknown third party. The invite came from my mailman list, we gave full particulars of who and where we are. We specifically advise that they are not at this stage subscribed to anything and will have to follow the detailed instructions (ie confirm) if they want to join the list. The third party is in the same trade as us, and deals with the same specialities, a third party customer had given me their address in good faith. This week my ISP contacts me with an upstream request from the national backbone provider to in effect desist from sending spam. Looking at the email returned, it was to an @yahoo address, spamcop seems to have detected spam on the basis of it being a mailman message, I am not certain that it was not initiated by the recipient but the official complaint originated from yahoo it seems (who should surely know better). Subject: [196.26.208.190] Yahoo Abuse Report - FW:confirm 3a35c56b531368da533112d96a9cb24c17cf6961 As I said in my reply, this is hardly spam, I did not send it out to half a million addresses purchased on a cd. This makes a mockery of genuine spam prevention efforts when one email from a genuine address can be allowed to cause this. It I don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill, but what can I do about this. Is this a common occurence? Are invites from mailman now considered fair game for spam detection software and humans alike? bestest Anne -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/anotheranne%40fables.co.za -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] what constitutes spam?
Anne Wainwright wrote: As an aside, I have to ask whether the 'invite' feature in Mailman has a function. If one has to have been in existing contact such that you can ask them if they would not object to an invite then one is in fact at the point where you can ask them point blank if you can subscribe them. My cycling club has a general discussion list for which subscription requires approval because it's limited to club members. If a new or renewing member checks the I want to join the club's email list box on the application form, we send an invitation. This avoids the problem of subscribing the wrong person or an invalid address to the list because of typos or unreadable handwriting (yes, we still accept snail-mailed forms with checks, although it's not our preferred method). Even when a club member emails the list owners asking to join the list, we sometimes send an invitation rather than just subscribing if we think there's a possibility the email was spoofed. I'm sure there are other use cases where invitations rather than direct subscriptions are appropriate/prudent. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] what constitutes spam?
On May 18, 2012, at 5:14 PM, Anne Wainwright wrote: For the record the following URL is of interest http://www.spamhaus.org/consumer/definition/ This clearly makes the point that spam is defined by two factors A message is Spam only if it is both Unsolicited and Bulk and being who they are their definition must carry some weight. In terms of their definition my mailing was not spam. Still, and I think Stephen made the point, there is also the consideration of good business practice to be considered. Actually, if you go back to Mark's message where he said: As an additional FYI in this thread, Mailman sends invitations with a Precedence: bulk header. This can only be changed by modifying code. Then you will note that the message you sent does actually qualify on both counts -- it was most definitely unsolicited (by your own account), and unless you modified the source code then Mailman definitely marked those invitations as bulk. Even if Mailman hadn't marked the messages as bulk per se, if you sent out invitations to more than one person, then that could also be classified as essentially being bulk. There are features in Mailman that can be misused and abused in a wide variety of ways, and it is the responsibility of the Site Administrator(s) and the List Administrator(s) to make sure that they operate the software in an appropriate manner. For example, if you were using Mailman internally to your company and could guarantee that no one could ever get on any list unless they were an employee, then by the terms of the employment contract you might be able to do things that might otherwise be considered of a spammy nature, like requiring that all employees be subscribed to certain lists that they can't unsubscribe from, sending out invitations to join mailing lists that they did not request, etc…. We have to allow for these kinds of things because not everyone uses Mailman in the same way for the same user community. And some types of actions are appropriate for certain user communities but not for others. We can't just disable or remove features simply because they are not appropriate for a particular user community. In essence, you're asking us to protect you against yourself, and there is a limit to how much of that we can do. At least, there is a limit to how much we can do if we want to keep the software usable for other people. -- Brad Knowles b...@shub-internet.org LinkedIn Profile: http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] what constitutes spam?
On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 4:39 PM, Anne Wainwright anothera...@fables.co.za wrote: I recently sent an invite to an unknown third party. Normally I agree with Brad Knowles on this kind of thing, but this time I can't go 100%. People regularly do make contacts with third parties that they have not previously met, with the intent of arranging mutually beneficial activities. Heck, if you think about it, that's what you're doing every time you make a first post to a mailing list. There is nothing wrong with that in general, and there is nothing (morally) wrong with that when done by email, to recipients carefully selected for high probability of getting some interest. (From this point of view, double opt in is just a useful, fail-safe litmus test for recipient interest, not the moral imperative some seem to think it is.) Obviously you think your mailing has passed that test. That said, it's bad business IMO (except in cases like a double opt-in mailing list where every person has explicitly indicated interest in receiving list posts). What *you* think isn't what really matters. When done by mutual acquaintance, by phone, or even by form letter, there are significant costs to making such contacts, especially when you do the phoning yourself. You must really value the recipient to go to such expense, even if small. There are no such costs to email, which means that using email as a medium puts you in company with some real scum, who send out unsolicited email indiscriminately, sometimes laden with malware or phishing URLs. It's unfair, I suppose, but I'm not surprised if you get classed with the scum on the basis of the only information the recipient has about you as a businessperson: an email that they didn't ask for. There's another problem. The ISPs are a pretty quick-on-the-trigger bunch, too, as a couple of posters have noted. But if you're not running a double opt-in list, you're not going to be able to get them to change your minds about your list. Everything I know about them, they'd rather lose half their clients' mail than get a complaint about spam. And their customers are not well-informed enough to doubt the ISPs when they blame somebody else for any problems with mail. Except spam -- it's obvious to the customer that the spam is bogus, why is it so hard for the ISP? You see their incentive, I suppose, and it works against legitimate businesses unless they follow the ISPs' rules. I conclude that for an honest business, anything is a better way than email to make first contact with a third party who doesn't know you. Regards, Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] what constitutes spam?
Hi, I recently sent an invite to an unknown third party. The invite came from my mailman list, we gave full particulars of who and where we are. We specifically advise that they are not at this stage subscribed to anything and will have to follow the detailed instructions (ie confirm) if they want to join the list. The third party is in the same trade as us, and deals with the same specialities, a third party customer had given me their address in good faith. This week my ISP contacts me with an upstream request from the national backbone provider to in effect desist from sending spam. Looking at the email returned, it was to an @yahoo address, spamcop seems to have detected spam on the basis of it being a mailman message, I am not certain that it was not initiated by the recipient but the official complaint originated from yahoo it seems (who should surely know better). Subject: [196.26.208.190] Yahoo Abuse Report - FW:confirm 3a35c56b531368da533112d96a9cb24c17cf6961 As I said in my reply, this is hardly spam, I did not send it out to half a million addresses purchased on a cd. This makes a mockery of genuine spam prevention efforts when one email from a genuine address can be allowed to cause this. It I don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill, but what can I do about this. Is this a common occurence? Are invites from mailman now considered fair game for spam detection software and humans alike? bestest Anne -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] what constitutes spam?
On 4/26/12 3:39 AM, Anne Wainwright wrote: Hi, I recently sent an invite to an unknown third party. The invite came from my mailman list, we gave full particulars of who and where we are. We specifically advise that they are not at this stage subscribed to anything and will have to follow the detailed instructions (ie confirm) if they want to join the list. The third party is in the same trade as us, and deals with the same specialities, a third party customer had given me their address in good faith. This week my ISP contacts me with an upstream request from the national backbone provider to in effect desist from sending spam. Looking at the email returned, it was to an @yahoo address, spamcop seems to have detected spam on the basis of it being a mailman message, I am not certain that it was not initiated by the recipient but the official complaint originated from yahoo it seems (who should surely know better). Subject: [196.26.208.190] Yahoo Abuse Report - FW:confirm 3a35c56b531368da533112d96a9cb24c17cf6961 As I said in my reply, this is hardly spam, I did not send it out to half a million addresses purchased on a cd. This makes a mockery of genuine spam prevention efforts when one email from a genuine address can be allowed to cause this. It I don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill, but what can I do about this. Is this a common occurence? Are invites from mailman now considered fair game for spam detection software and humans alike? bestest Anne From your first sentence sent an invite to an unknown third party sounds to me like a reasonable definition of spam. Generally invites are used when the person has done some positive action that makes you believe they might like the mailing and shows a willingness to have contact with you, something like registering on your website. Another person giving you their email address is normally NOT good enough of a reason for you to send them the invite. Protocol would be for that third party to contact the prospect directly (if they really did think that your list might be worthwhile for them) and point them to that list. One key factor here is that YOU are an unknown to the person you sent the invite to, and one should NEVER follow a link or reply to an email from an unknown. This sort of spam report tends to come because the person receiving the message has themselves hit the this is spam button, and them pressing it is a reasonable sign that you had over stepped the bounds by sending them the message. It is also quite possible that Yahoo has received multiple complaints (the one being quoted being an example), and this is what has prompted them to contact your ISP with the complaint. -- Richard Damon -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] what constitutes spam?
On Thu, 26 Apr 2012 09:39:44 +0200 Anne Wainwright anothera...@fables.co.za wrote: Hello Anne, As I said in my reply, this is hardly spam, I did not send it out to You sent out an Unsolicited Commercial Email (UCE) which, to most people, constitutes SPAM. Whether you sent it to one person or one million is irrelevant. -- Regards _ / ) The blindingly obvious is / _)radnever immediately apparent The public gets what the public wants Going Underground - The Jam signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] what constitutes spam?
On Apr 26, 2012, at 2:39 AM, Anne Wainwright wrote: As I said in my reply, this is hardly spam, I did not send it out to half a million addresses purchased on a cd. This makes a mockery of genuine spam prevention efforts when one email from a genuine address can be allowed to cause this. It I don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill, but what can I do about this. Is this a common occurence? Are invites from mailman now considered fair game for spam detection software and humans alike? Okay, so first off, you did send the message unsolicited. That is generally considered to be one of the most basic hallmarks of spam -- the recipient got something that they never asked for. If you had a prior direct business relationship with that recipient, and they had expressed interest in being on your mailing list at some point in time in the past, then you could potentially claim that the message was not spam. Outside of that scenario, you fail test #1 -- go straight to jail, do not pass Go, do not collect $200. That said, there are a lot of clueless Yahoo! customers, many of whom have actively asked to be on mailing lists that are hosted on python.org using Mailman, and yet they still do stupid stuff like clicking on the THIS IS SPAM button when the message in question was a regular message from the list that was posted as part of a discussion that they themselves were participating in -- clearly not spam. If I were actively involved in the day-to-day operations of the python.org mail system, given the amount of complaints like this that we continue to get from Yahoo! on a daily basis, I would be strongly inclined to simply ban all subscriptions from addresses at yahoo.com -- just like many mailing list administrators used to do for aol.com. Yahoo is just too poorly administered, there are way too many clueless users, and the company doesn't begin to bother to educate their users as to when they should not click the THIS IS SPAM button. However, the fact that Yahoo! is hopelessly clueless does not absolve you of the crime that you freely admit that you are guilty of. If you wish to persist in your spammy ways, then we can make sure that your address gets unsubscribed from this list, and that your domain gets banned from sending e-mail to python.org. -- Brad Knowles b...@shub-internet.org LinkedIn Profile: http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] what constitutes spam?
As an additional FYI in this thread, Mailman sends invitations with a Precedence: bulk header. This can only be changed by modifying code. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
