Re: [Mailman-Users] what gives?

2005-02-19 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mark Sapiro wrote:
The "hijacked browser" scenario was only suggested in the first place
because we were not understanding what you were reporting. Once we
understood that your subscribes were not being redirected, that you
were able to subscribe without any problem and that it was only after
posting that you got the confirmation from the other list, we
understood that it wasn't that kind of issue.
 

Like I mentioned before, a hijacked browser is simply not going to wait 
for you to subscribe to the mailman-users list and redirect your attempt 
to its own mailman list, period.

Glad it's all been figured out though.
-s
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Re: [Mailman-Users] what gives?

2005-02-17 Thread Mark Sapiro
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>Yes, obviously NOT a security issue.  I was simply debunking the 
>"hijacked browser" scenario and wanted to get to the bottom of it.

It seems we have gotton to the bottom of it thanks to your staying with
it and to Chuq and that is good.

The "hijacked browser" scenario was only suggested in the first place
because we were not understanding what you were reporting. Once we
understood that your subscribes were not being redirected, that you
were able to subscribe without any problem and that it was only after
posting that you got the confirmation from the other list, we
understood that it wasn't that kind of issue.

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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] what gives?

2005-02-17 Thread Larry Stone
On 2/17/05 6:54 AM, Larry Stone at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> While it's been quite a while, I also recall getting the bogus subscription
> confirmation email from that site. At the time, I had no reason to associate
> it with my subscribing to this mailman list so if it is, then as others have
> suggested, it seems to be associated with the your first posting to the list,
> not subscribing.

Interestingly, I just received another of these bogus confirms from the site
being discussed. What's really interesting is the message went to the
"larry" account in my signature, not the "lstone19" account I use for
mailing lists and is in the From: header.

-- Larry Stone
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   http://www.stonejongleux.com/
   


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Re: [Mailman-Users] what gives?

2005-02-17 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mark Sapiro wrote:
If by "firing off a confirm", you mean attempting to subscribe them to
the list which then triggers a confirmation, I think this seems likely.
 

Yes, that is what I mean.
So what do we have.
Someone is somehow watching this public list and getting addresses of
(some, all?) first time posters to this list and attempting to
subscribe those addresses to some other list.
There doesn't seem to be any security issue here. as this list is
public and anyone can subscribe to it or visit its archive. The fact
that both this list and the target list are Mailman lists may be
relevant in some way (in the mind of the perpetrator), but it doesn't
imply a Mailman issue. The annoyance factor is minimal. You get the
confirmation and ignore it. Nothing further happens.
 

Yes, now that we uncovered what was happening, it appears fairly 
innocuous. But when it happened I have to say that it was a bit 
unnerving since I obviously had just installed mailman and wondered 
"what the heck is going on".

It doesn't seem to me that there is any security issue, Mailman issue
or other issue here that we as a group can do anything about.
 

Yes, obviously NOT a security issue.  I was simply debunking the 
"hijacked browser" scenario and wanted to get to the bottom of it.

Thanks
-s
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Re: [Mailman-Users] what gives?

2005-02-17 Thread Chuq Von Rospach
On Feb 17, 2005, at 8:19 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
I'm still a bit more skeptical at this point than "no doubt", but I'm
open to the idea.
since I've already found the culprit (I hope), it's well beyond no 
doubt. it's guaranteed.

Someone is somehow watching this public list and getting addresses of
(some, all?) first time posters to this list and attempting to
subscribe those addresses to some other list.
There doesn't seem to be any security issue here.
It's a huge security issue. Someone is hijacking a mailing list and 
forcing its users to see content they didn't ask for, iwthout 
permission of the owner of the list. Now, imagine instead of a single 
confirm message, every posting got it. And that the harvesting address 
was on hotmail.com and forwarding off somewhere.

now what? how do you find it? how do you stop it?
as this list is
public and anyone can subscribe to it or visit its archive.
which doesn't give anyone a right to spam users of it. or harvest it.
You want to kill a mailing list? do what I just suggest, and every time 
someone posts to it, they get porn spam. the list'll go stone dead very 
quickly. Want to kill mailing lists in general? let it be known that 
spammers have figured out that to harvest emails, all they need do is 
subscribe to mailing lists and harvest what comes in to their 
safe-house address. And since there's no direct connection there, how 
do you stop THAT?

There are things that could be done, but few to no mailing lists do 
them. And it's a serious issue that I feel is just a matter of time...

It's a big issue, mark. it's one of people repurposing our stuff for 
their purposes, and whether we have a say in them being able to do it 
(or stopping them somehow). USENET ultimately had no control 
mechanisms. It's dead.

mail lists? very vulnerable.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] what gives?

2005-02-17 Thread Chuq Von Rospach
The fact that at least 4 people from this list have already responded
that they too have gotten that same mailman confirm email from that
domain/list at about the time, as they recall, that they first
subscribed here and made their first post leaves no doubt at this 
point
that there is a connection.

OK...that's easy enough, and doesn't require compromising anything.  
It just
requires subscribing an innocuous address to the list(s), and keeping 
track
of posted message senders.
Yup. The secret nightmare of any list admin -- that someone harvests a 
list by subscribing to it and then processing the postings.

In fact -- I believe I found the address. It has been removed, and the 
site banned from resubscribing. I tend to think this wasn't an 
intentional harvesting, actually, but it doesn't matter. My guess is 
their admin subscribed ot the list when they were setting up the site, 
and when they went production with their spam, set things up to that 
all incoming mail got forwarded to their spam lists. An intentional 
harvesting wouldn't be so easy to find.

But I think it's fixed, and I'm glad folks kept harping on this to make 
us go look for it. This kind of list harvest is something I've worried 
about for years, because it's basically impossible to find if they set 
it up right. Here's hoping I'm right and it was by accident.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] what gives?

2005-02-17 Thread Mark Sapiro
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>The fact that at least 4 people from this list have already responded 
>that they too have gotten that same mailman confirm email from that 
>domain/list at about the time, as they recall, that they first 
>subscribed here and made their first post leaves no doubt at this point 
>that there is a connection.


I'm still a bit more skeptical at this point than "no doubt", but I'm
open to the idea.


>Again, I think they are simply identifying 
>first time posters to this list (and possibly other lists) and then 
>firing off a confirm email to them, probably in order to advertise their 
>site rather than to get anyone to join their mailing list.

If by "firing off a confirm", you mean attempting to subscribe them to
the list which then triggers a confirmation, I think this seems likely.

So what do we have.

Someone is somehow watching this public list and getting addresses of
(some, all?) first time posters to this list and attempting to
subscribe those addresses to some other list.

There doesn't seem to be any security issue here. as this list is
public and anyone can subscribe to it or visit its archive. The fact
that both this list and the target list are Mailman lists may be
relevant in some way (in the mind of the perpetrator), but it doesn't
imply a Mailman issue. The annoyance factor is minimal. You get the
confirmation and ignore it. Nothing further happens.

The fact is when you post to a public forum such as this one, you are
publishing your e-mail address to the world and you have no control
over what's done with it. If you don't like it, don't post or post
from an anonymous, disposable address.

It doesn't seem to me that there is any security issue, Mailman issue
or other issue here that we as a group can do anything about.

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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] what gives?

2005-02-17 Thread John W. Baxter
On 2/17/2005 4:34, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> John W. Baxter wrote:
> 
>> I subscribed a different address (by email, as is my habit when I have a
>> list message handy).
>> 
>> I confirmed a half hour ago...no spurious confirmations from other lists yet
>> (if that changes, I'll let you know).  I have now unsubscribed.
>> 
>>  --John
>> 
>>  
>> 
> 
> John,
> 
> The fact that at least 4 people from this list have already responded
> that they too have gotten that same mailman confirm email from that
> domain/list at about the time, as they recall, that they first
> subscribed here and made their first post leaves no doubt at this point
> that there is a connection. Again, I think they are simply identifying
> first time posters to this list (and possibly other lists) and then
> firing off a confirm email to them, probably in order to advertise their
> site rather than to get anyone to join their mailing list.

OK...that's easy enough, and doesn't require compromising anything.  It just
requires subscribing an innocuous address to the list(s), and keeping track
of posted message senders.

> 
> But in any event, your test would not have worked since it is apparently
> only when a new subscriber makes his first post, not when he subscribes,
> that triggers the confirm email from them.

OK...that wasn't the recipe which was suggested by your initial message,
which said the bogus confirm came shortly after you confirmed...no mention
of posting a message too.

There's also the fact that my provider's anti-spam mechanisms could well
have kept the bogus message out even had it been attempted.

  --John

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Re: [Mailman-Users] what gives?

2005-02-17 Thread Larry Stone
On 2/17/05 12:44 AM, Gerhard Killesreiter at
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> I just want to state that I also got a subscription confirmation request
> from that porn list. I /think/ it might have been after my
> (re-)subscription to this list, but I can't check this since I deleted
> the subscription request from this and the other list.

While it's been quite a while, I also recall getting the bogus subscription
confirmation email from that site. At the time, I had no reason to associate
it with my subscribing to this mailman list so if it is, then as others have
suggested, it seems to be associated with the your first posting to the
list, not subscribing.

FWIW, web browser is Safari (Macintosh).

-- Larry Stone
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   http://www.stonejongleux.com/
   


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Re: [Mailman-Users] what gives?

2005-02-17 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]
John W. Baxter wrote:
I subscribed a different address (by email, as is my habit when I have a
list message handy).
I confirmed a half hour ago...no spurious confirmations from other lists yet
(if that changes, I'll let you know).  I have now unsubscribed.
 --John
 

John,
The fact that at least 4 people from this list have already responded 
that they too have gotten that same mailman confirm email from that 
domain/list at about the time, as they recall, that they first 
subscribed here and made their first post leaves no doubt at this point 
that there is a connection. Again, I think they are simply identifying 
first time posters to this list (and possibly other lists) and then 
firing off a confirm email to them, probably in order to advertise their 
site rather than to get anyone to join their mailing list.

But in any event, your test would not have worked since it is apparently 
only when a new subscriber makes his first post, not when he subscribes, 
that triggers the confirm email from them.

-s
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Re: [Mailman-Users] what gives?

2005-02-16 Thread Gerhard Killesreiter


On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, Mark Sapiro wrote:

> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> >I AM running firefox.
> >
> >Reread my post, please. Are you saying that someone (or program)
> >hijacked my web browser and patiently waits for me to subscribe to this
> >mailing list or any other mailman mailing list in order to then send me
> >a confirm mailman email for their list?! Like I said, I have subscribed
> >to this list twice, two weeks apart. Each time I did, I received a
> >mailman confirm email for THEIR list within 24 hours after I first
> >posted to the list.
>
>
> Are you saying that your subscription to this list went as expected
> including the confirmation e-mail and then only after you posted you
> got a confirmation request from the other list?

I just want to state that I also got a subscription confirmation request
from that porn list. I /think/ it might have been after my
(re-)subscription to this list, but I can't check this since I deleted
the subscription request from this and the other list.

I am using firefox on unix.

Cheers,
Gerhard

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Re: [Mailman-Users] what gives?

2005-02-16 Thread John W. Baxter
On 2/16/2005 16:04, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> This is the second time now that I've subscribed to the mailman list
> and, shortly thereafter, have received a "confirm" subscription mailman
> email for the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list.

I subscribed a different address (by email, as is my habit when I have a
list message handy).

I confirmed a half hour ago...no spurious confirmations from other lists yet
(if that changes, I'll let you know).  I have now unsubscribed.

  --John

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Re: [Mailman-Users] what gives?

2005-02-16 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dave Dewey wrote:
For what it's worth, I have received the exact same
spanish-language-porno-confirmation email.  However, it was some months
after my initial subscription; doesn't mean it was or wasn't tied to my
being a member of this list, but at least there are two of us that have
received it.
 

Thanks for the input. Yes, but how soon after your very first post to 
the list was it? Obviously they wait for new subscribers to post for the 
first time since there is no way to directly get the email address of 
new subscribers since the member list is private (or so I would think it 
is).

There is no doubt that this factoria list is linked somehow to actions I 
took with regard to this list. Like I said, I subscribe anew two times, 
two weeks apart with completely different email addresses including 
domains and ip adresses and soon after my very first post EACH time, I 
got a confirm email from them and it was clearly from the mailman 
program. That combined with the fact that I have never subscribed to a 
mailing list before nor have I ever installed mailman leaves no doubt in 
mind.

It should be an easy thing to duplicate.
-s
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Re: [Mailman-Users] what gives?

2005-02-16 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mark Sapiro wrote:
Are you saying that your subscription to this list went as expected
including the confirmation e-mail and then only after you posted you
got a confirmation request from the other list?
 

Yes, my subscription to this list went as expected, including the 
confirmation email. Then, relatively shortly after my first post to this 
list, which btw, is done by my email client, thunderbird, I got a 
confirmation email (in mailman format) for their list.


What I think is that these people are subscribed to this list and when 
someone posts to this list for the first time, they then subscribe them 
to their list and out goes a confirm email from them.
   

That's an interesting theory, but it still could be a coincidence. If
your theory is correct, why just attempt to subscribe you. why not
subscribe you without confirmation required? And, why not subscribe me
too?
Then again, maybe there's someone picking on you?
 

Sure it could be a coincidence, but it is very probable given the facts. 
I simply cannot believe that someone has comprised my box or hijacked my 
browser waiting for me to subscribe and post to this mailman list so 
that they can then send me a confirm for their list. There are lots 
better ways to show someone your site than that. I have never installed 
mailman nor joined a mailman list before doing so twice, two weeks 
apart. I simply can't imagine that that is not related in any way to me 
receiving a confirm mailman email for their list within 24 hours after 
posting to this list for the first time (two weeks apart). Come on.

As far as someone picking on me, that is again unlikely. The first time 
I subscribed and then posted to this (two weeks ago) list, I did so 
using a totally different username and domain and came from a different 
ip address.

As for why they don't subscribe me, perhaps they simply want me to click 
and visit their site. After all, considering what I think the site does, 
I hardly see the benefit of a mailing list :-)

-s
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Re: [Mailman-Users] what gives?

2005-02-16 Thread Mark Sapiro
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>I AM running firefox.
>
>Reread my post, please. Are you saying that someone (or program) 
>hijacked my web browser and patiently waits for me to subscribe to this 
>mailing list or any other mailman mailing list in order to then send me 
>a confirm mailman email for their list?! Like I said, I have subscribed 
>to this list twice, two weeks apart. Each time I did, I received a 
>mailman confirm email for THEIR list within 24 hours after I first 
>posted to the list.


Are you saying that your subscription to this list went as expected
including the confirmation e-mail and then only after you posted you
got a confirmation request from the other list?


>What I think is that these people are subscribed to this list and when 
>someone posts to this list for the first time, they then subscribe them 
>to their list and out goes a confirm email from them.

That's an interesting theory, but it still could be a coincidence. If
your theory is correct, why just attempt to subscribe you. why not
subscribe you without confirmation required? And, why not subscribe me
too?

Then again, maybe there's someone picking on you?

--
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] what gives?

2005-02-16 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Chuq Von Rospach wrote:
sure it can. it's a porn site. you running IE on windows, right?
try installing firefox on the same machine and see what happens.

I AM running firefox.
Reread my post, please. Are you saying that someone (or program) 
hijacked my web browser and patiently waits for me to subscribe to this 
mailing list or any other mailman mailing list in order to then send me 
a confirm mailman email for their list?! Like I said, I have subscribed 
to this list twice, two weeks apart. Each time I did, I received a 
mailman confirm email for THEIR list within 24 hours after I first 
posted to the list.

What I think is that these people are subscribed to this list and when 
someone posts to this list for the first time, they then subscribe them 
to their list and out goes a confirm email from them.

Try it yourself. Subscribe to this list with a new email address and 
then post something.

-s
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Re: [Mailman-Users] what gives?

2005-02-16 Thread Chuq Von Rospach
sure it can. it's a porn site. you running IE on windows, right?
try installing firefox on the same machine and see what happens.
On Feb 16, 2005, at 4:58 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
There is no way this can be due to a hijacked browser.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] what gives?

2005-02-16 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mark Sapiro wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 

This is the second time now that I've subscribed to the mailman list 
and, shortly thereafter, have received a "confirm" subscription mailman 
email for the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list.
   


I just submitted a subscribe request for another of my addresses on the
web page at http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users.
This request took me to the results page at
http://mail.python.org/mailman/subscribe/mailman-users and I then
received a normal confirmation e-mail from
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
In other words, everything worked as expected.
Maybe your browser has been hijacked.
 

Well, someone might want to look into this. The first time I subscribed 
under a different email address about 2 weeks ago when I first installed 
mailman. 10 minutes after I subscribed to this list, I received a 
"confirm" mailman email in spanish for the factoria list. I thought 
"that's odd", but I thought it was some sample confirm email from the 
installation and so I forgot about it.

Then yesterday (two weeks after I first subscribed under a different 
email address), I subscribed again to this list and today I get another 
confirm mailman email in spanish for this factoria list.

There is no way this can be due to a hijacked browser. They are somehow 
able to identify who has subscribed to this list and then send that 
email a confirm email for their list.

I did find this: 
http://lists.indymedia.org/pipermail/listwork/2004-December/1217-q1.html

-S

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Re: [Mailman-Users] what gives?

2005-02-16 Thread Mark Sapiro
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>This is the second time now that I've subscribed to the mailman list 
>and, shortly thereafter, have received a "confirm" subscription mailman 
>email for the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list.


I just submitted a subscribe request for another of my addresses on the
web page at http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users.
This request took me to the results page at
http://mail.python.org/mailman/subscribe/mailman-users and I then
received a normal confirmation e-mail from
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

In other words, everything worked as expected.

Maybe your browser has been hijacked.

--
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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[Mailman-Users] what gives?

2005-02-16 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]
This is the second time now that I've subscribed to the mailman list 
and, shortly thereafter, have received a "confirm" subscription mailman 
email for the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list.

What is up?
Thanks
-sea
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