Re: [Mailman-Users] Issue with text to Mailman list serve

[Mark Sapiro]

Darren G Pifer wrote:
>
>Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>
>> Thanks, but that by itself doesn't tell me much. It does tell me that
>> Mailman recast the message as multipart mixed, but I already knew
>> that. I need to see the MIME structure of the entire message including
>> all the sub-part headers, but even in the absence of that, focus on
>> the following:
>>
>>   
>I think I finally attached the raw message for you.  Hopefully you can glean
>the information you need from it.


My comments about this are below. Note to list - the attached message
was removed by content filtering, but I received it in my direct copy.
I have summarized the saliant points in my reply.


>> Is the non-working list the only one with a msg_header as well as a
>> msg_footer? If that is the case, try removing the msg_header
>> completely and see if that helps.
>>
>>   
>Did that.  This apparently resolved the issue as the admin owner is happy. 
>However, I am not totally convinced that it is a mail client issue.  I 
>am seeing 4 parts
>in my Thunderbird mail client:
>
>plain text (header)
>plain text (body)
>html (body)
>plain text (footer)


What you are seeing is consistent with the attached message.


>Why would mailman be sending plain text and html attachments? When the
>header is removed, my Thunderbird mail client shows the email message
>as plain text and one attachment, the footer.


Did the message below come directly to you from the list or was it
forwarded to you.  If it came directly from the list, I don't
understand it. Note that the second through fourth parts all have
headers of the form

Content-Type: text/plain; name="ATT1.c"
Content-Description: ATT1.c
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="ATT1.c"; size=1175;
creation-date="Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:50:12 GMT";
modification-date="Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:50:12 GMT"

Mailman did not create these headers. What appears to be going on is
that this message is received from the list and opened in an MUA that
identifies the first part as the message body and the remaining 3
parts as attachments. The message is then forwarded from that MUA
resulting in the message you attached.

In particular, the last part is the list's msg_footer, and it has part
headers:

Content-Type: text/plain; name="ATT3.c"
Content-Description: ATT3.c
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="ATT3.c"; size=218;
creation-date="Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:50:12 GMT";
modification-date="Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:50:12 GMT"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64


Mailman would have created that "attachment" with only the headers

Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: xxx

with the possible addition of a charset parameter on the Content-Type:
header, and most likely 7bit or 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding:.

All the other headers and the name= parameter were added after the
message left Mailman.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Issue with text to Mailman list serve

[Darren G Pifer]

Hi Mark,

Mark Sapiro wrote:

Darren G Pifer wrote:
  
I asked our Exchange administrator to get the message headers.  Here is 
that information:



Thanks, but that by itself doesn't tell me much. It does tell me that
Mailman recast the message as multipart mixed, but I already knew
that. I need to see the MIME structure of the entire message including
all the sub-part headers, but even in the absence of that, focus on
the following:

  

I think I finally attached the raw message for you.  Hopefully you can glean
the information you need from it.

Is the non-working list the only one with a msg_header as well as a
msg_footer? If that is the case, try removing the msg_header
completely and see if that helps.

  
Did that.  This apparently resolved the issue as the admin owner is happy. 
However, I am not totally convinced that it is a mail client issue.  I 
am seeing 4 parts

in my Thunderbird mail client:

plain text (header)
plain text (body)
html (body)
plain text (footer)

Why would mailman be sending plain text and html attachments? When the
header is removed, my Thunderbird mail client shows the email message
as plain text and one attachment, the footer.

Darren
ODU


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Issue with text to Mailman list serve

[Mark Sapiro]

Darren G Pifer wrote:
>I asked our Exchange administrator to get the message headers.  Here is 
>that information:


Thanks, but that by itself doesn't tell me much. It does tell me that
Mailman recast the message as multipart mixed, but I already knew
that. I need to see the MIME structure of the entire message including
all the sub-part headers, but even in the absence of that, focus on
the following:

Is the non-working list the only one with a msg_header as well as a
msg_footer? If that is the case, try removing the msg_header
completely and see if that helps.

If that is not the case, does this Mailman instance have any
modifications to allow editing a post from the admindb interface prior
to approval?

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Issue with text to Mailman list serve

[Darren G Pifer]

Mark Sapiro wrote:

Darren G Pifer wrote:
  


What is the raw message with all headers?
   In Tbird, select the message and then File->Save As->File or just
ctrl-S, and give it a name with a .txt extension. Then you can attach
that .txt file to a list post.

  
  
I see that my attachments did not come across so I have attached the raw 
message

removing only some private information.  The owner forwarded to me a copy of
the email sent to the list.

I asked our Exchange administrator to get the message headers.  Here is 
that information:


Received: from malden.server1.odu.edu (128.82.96.118) by PARAKEET.ts.odu.edu

(192.168.96.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.311.2; Thu, 15 Jan 2009

11:50:12 -0500

Received: from malden.server1.odu.edu (localhost.localdomain 
[127.0.0.1]) by


malden.server1.odu.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n0FGo1O1020182

   (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 
verify=NOT) for


; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:50:12 -0500

Received: (from def...@localhost)   by malden.server1.odu.edu

(8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id n0FGmUJa019787for nou...@odu.edu; 
Thu, 15 Jan


2009 11:48:30 -0500

Received: from malden.server1.odu.edu (malden.server1.odu.edu 
[128.82.96.118])


   by malden.server1.odu.edu (envelope-sender

) (MIMEDefang) with ESMTP id

n0FGmOCp019564; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:48:30 -0500 (EST)

X-Mailman-Handler: $Id: mm-handler,v 1.2 2005/09/06 14:19:26 root Exp $

Received: from jarvis.server1.odu.edu (jarvis.server1.odu.edu 
[128.82.96.116])


   by malden.server1.odu.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id   
n0FGfRF2017255


   (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 
verify=NOT) for


; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:41:27 -0500

Received: from macaw.ts.odu.edu (macaw.ts.odu.edu [192.168.96.21]) by

jarvis.server1.odu.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n0FGfRKn006790

   (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5 bits=128 
verify=NOT) for


; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:41:27 -0500

Received: from MUFASA.ts.odu.edu ([192.168.96.25]) by macaw.ts.odu.edu

   ([192.168.96.21]) with mapi; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:41:27 -0500

To: "'womenscen...@list.odu.edu'" 

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:41:26 -0500

Thread-Topic: MPOWER Peer Education Training

Thread-Index: Acl3MBuMFudt3DTYR1OHocyl2DC6Og==

Message-ID: <650eea523bf3974982d019528e8f14aa41797b1...@mufasa.ts.odu.edu>

Accept-Language: en-US

Content-Language: en-US

X-MS-Has-Attach:

X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:

acceptlanguage: en-US

MIME-Version: 1.0

X-Spam-Score: undef - DOMAIN Whitelisted (Domain list.odu.edu is 
whitelisted)


X-CanItPRO-Stream:  nouser

X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 128.82.96.118

X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 128.82.96.118

X-Scanned-By: CanIt (www . roaringpenguin . com) on 128.82.96.104

X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:48:23 -0500

From: 

Subject: [ODU Women's Center] MPOWER Peer Education Training

X-BeenThere: womenscen...@list.odu.edu

X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9

Precedence: list

Reply-To: womenscen...@list.odu.edu

List-Id: 

List-Unsubscribe: ,

   

List-Post: 

List-Help: 

List-Subscribe: ,

   

Content-Type: multipart/mixed;

   boundary="===0531434121029220416=="

Sender: 

Errors-To: womenscenter-boun...@list.odu.edu

X-Canit-Stats-ID: 111486436 - aacdcfad7cef

Return-Path: womenscenter-boun...@list.odu.edu

Thanks, but the forwarded message doesn't help much. It appears to be a
forward from MS Outlook of the received message. What I would need to
see is the raw message. I don't know how to get that from Outlook. In
Outlook Express, you can right-click the message in the message list
pane and then select Properties->Details->Message Source and then
select and copy the entire message source and paste it into notepad,
but I have no idea if this would work in Outlook.

What I can see is the part that says "Womens_Center" looks like
msg_header so that both msg_header and msg_footer are added and the
result should look like

multipart/mixed
text/plain
multipart/alternative
text/plain
text/html
text/plain

It is possible that this is in fact the structure of the message and
Outlook thinks that the first text/plain part is the message body and
everything else is an attachment, in which case, it's realy an Outlook
issue, but that wouldn't explain why the other lists are OK unless
they don't have msg_header.
  

The other 2 lists do not have message headers.  The issue appears to be an
issue with Outlook, in combination with the message header from the list.
The Exchange administrator showed me what it looks

Re: [Mailman-Users] Issue with text to Mailman list serve

[Mark Sapiro]

Darren G Pifer wrote:
>
>Mark Sapiro wrote:
>>
>> What Mailman version is this?
>>
>>   
>2.1.9


OK.


>> What are the list's content filtering settings?
>>   
>Should Mailman filter the content of list traffic according to the 
>settings below?  No


So content filtering is off and not involved.

>
>The Content Filtering settings are the same across all 3 lists the admin 
>owns but only this one is it working
>incorrectly.


OK.
>> What is the raw message with all headers?
>>In Tbird, select the message and then File->Save As->File or just
>> ctrl-S, and give it a name with a .txt extension. Then you can attach
>> that .txt file to a list post.
>>
>>   
>I see that my attachments did not come across so I have attached the raw 
>message
>removing only some private information.  The owner forwarded to me a copy of
>the email sent to the list.


Thanks, but the forwarded message doesn't help much. It appears to be a
forward from MS Outlook of the received message. What I would need to
see is the raw message. I don't know how to get that from Outlook. In
Outlook Express, you can right-click the message in the message list
pane and then select Properties->Details->Message Source and then
select and copy the entire message source and paste it into notepad,
but I have no idea if this would work in Outlook.

What I can see is the part that says "Womens_Center" looks like
msg_header so that both msg_header and msg_footer are added and the
result should look like

multipart/mixed
text/plain
multipart/alternative
text/plain
text/html
text/plain

It is possible that this is in fact the structure of the message and
Outlook thinks that the first text/plain part is the message body and
everything else is an attachment, in which case, it's realy an Outlook
issue, but that wouldn't explain why the other lists are OK unless
they don't have msg_header.

I do have another idea. You said the difference here is the message is
held for moderation and approved. Does this Mailman instance have some
kind of patch that enables editing held messages before approval? If
so, I think that's where the problem lies.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Issue with text to Mailman list serve

[Darren G Pifer]

Mark Sapiro wrote:

Darren G Pifer wrote:

  
I have attached the files you requested, as sent to me by the list 
administrator.



It appears to me what is happening is the list server is sending the 
email with
3 attachments but displays as 4 parts:  there is the message header, the 
text
version of the email, then an HTML version of the email, followed by the 
message
footer. I see like a line separator between each part. (I use the 
Thunderbird mail
client).  This does not seem like normal behavior.  If anything, there 
should

be a minimum of 3 parts, not 4.

Let me know if there is any else you need from me.





The actual attachments didn't get to the list, but they are as Darren
describes.

It appears that the original message to the list is
multipart/alternative with test/plain and text/html alternative parts.
The three message parts in addition to the headers are the text/plain
part, the text/html part and the msg_footer.

Something is wrong with what is happening to this message. Normally, if
a message with structure

multipart/alternative
text/plain
text/html

is sent to a list and content filtering doesn't remove eather
alternative or collapse alternatives, the msg_footer will be added as
a separate part and the final message will look like

multipart/mixed
multipart/alternative
text/plain
text/html
text/plain

I.e. it will be converted to a multipart mixed message with two parts -
part 1 being the original message parts and part 2 being the footer.
In your case, it appears that the final message structure is

multipart/mixed
text/plain
text/html
text/plain

instead.

What Mailman version is this?

  

2.1.9


What are the list's content filtering settings?
  
Should Mailman filter the content of list traffic according to the 
settings below?  No
Remove message attachments that don't have a matching content type. 
Leave this field blank to skip this filter test.


multipart/mixed
multipart/alternative
text/plain

Should Mailman collapse multipart/alternative to its first part 
content?   Yes


Should Mailman convert text/html parts to plain text? This conversion 
happens after MIME attachments have been stripped.   Yes


Action to take when a message matches the content filtering rules.
Discard


The Content Filtering settings are the same across all 3 lists the admin 
owns but only this one is it working

incorrectly.

What is the raw message with all headers?
   In Tbird, select the message and then File->Save As->File or just
ctrl-S, and give it a name with a .txt extension. Then you can attach
that .txt file to a list post.

  
I see that my attachments did not come across so I have attached the raw 
message

removing only some private information.  The owner forwarded to me a copy of
the email sent to the list.

Regards, Darren
ODU
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Issue with text to Mailman list serve

[Mark Sapiro]

Darren G Pifer wrote:

>I have attached the files you requested, as sent to me by the list 
>administrator.



>It appears to me what is happening is the list server is sending the 
>email with
>3 attachments but displays as 4 parts:  there is the message header, the 
>text
>version of the email, then an HTML version of the email, followed by the 
>message
>footer. I see like a line separator between each part. (I use the 
>Thunderbird mail
>client).  This does not seem like normal behavior.  If anything, there 
>should
>be a minimum of 3 parts, not 4.
>
>Let me know if there is any else you need from me.



The actual attachments didn't get to the list, but they are as Darren
describes.

It appears that the original message to the list is
multipart/alternative with test/plain and text/html alternative parts.
The three message parts in addition to the headers are the text/plain
part, the text/html part and the msg_footer.

Something is wrong with what is happening to this message. Normally, if
a message with structure

multipart/alternative
text/plain
text/html

is sent to a list and content filtering doesn't remove eather
alternative or collapse alternatives, the msg_footer will be added as
a separate part and the final message will look like

multipart/mixed
multipart/alternative
text/plain
text/html
text/plain

I.e. it will be converted to a multipart mixed message with two parts -
part 1 being the original message parts and part 2 being the footer.
In your case, it appears that the final message structure is

multipart/mixed
text/plain
text/html
text/plain

instead.

What Mailman version is this?

What are the list's content filtering settings?

What is the raw message with all headers?
   In Tbird, select the message and then File->Save As->File or just
ctrl-S, and give it a name with a .txt extension. Then you can attach
that .txt file to a list post.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

--
Mailman-Users mailing list
Mailman-Users@python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Issue with text to Mailman list serve

[Darren G Pifer]

Mark Sapiro wrote:

Here is her description of the issue.  She is sending
text to her listserve which is a moderated list.  She approves the
message but as a member of the list, the email is received with 3
attachments:  ATT1.c,  ATT2.htm, and ATT3.c.  The
administrator has 2 other lists and when she sends text, she receives
them as text.  She would like email sent as text to be received as text.

You could try deleting all list-specific headers and footers and re-creating 
them, this time making sure that you don't put in any non-ASCII characters. 
 Or maybe you've got ASCII characters in there, but there are non-ASCII 
characters in the submitted message, such as accented characters in 
someone's name or signature?


Other than that, I have no idea how this kind of thing would happen.
  

Re-creating the headers and footers did not resolve the issue.

The .htm extension on the middle "attachment" which I assume is the
message body indicates she is not sending a text/plain message but
rather a text/html message, and content filtering is not removing the
html part or converting it to plain text. The other "attachments" are
probably the msg_header and msg_footer as Brad suggests. The FAQ Brad
references is the relevant one. The difference between lists may be
that this is the only one that adds msg_header and msg_footer.

I may not have this exactly right, but the only way to know for sure is
to see a raw message from the list or at least the content of the
three "attachments"
  
I have attached the files you requested, as sent to me by the list 
administrator.
It appears to me what is happening is the list server is sending the 
email with
3 attachments but displays as 4 parts:  there is the message header, the 
text
version of the email, then an HTML version of the email, followed by the 
message
footer. I see like a line separator between each part. (I use the 
Thunderbird mail
client).  This does not seem like normal behavior.  If anything, there 
should

be a minimum of 3 parts, not 4.

Let me know if there is any else you need from me.

Regards, Darren
ODU
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Issue with text to Mailman list serve

[Darren G Pifer]

Mark Sapiro wrote:

Brad Knowles wrote:

  

One of our list serve administrators is experiencing an issue with one of
her listserves.
  


If it's a Listserv(r) list, why are you posting here :)

(Listserv(r) is a registered trademark[1] owned by the developer of a
particular email list management product, and it shouldn't be used
generically.)
  

Yea, it is incorrect to use listserve but it is common amongst our users so
I have assimilated to use the same terminology :(   It is a Mailman list.


Here is her description of the issue.  She is sending
text to her listserve which is a moderated list.  She approves the
message but as a member of the list, the email is received with 3
attachments:  ATT1.c,  ATT2.htm, and ATT3.c.  The
administrator has 2 other lists and when she sends text, she receives
them as text.  She would like email sent as text to be received as text.
  
The only time I've heard of anything like this is when there are different 
character sets being used in some of the headers or footers (sometimes space 
characters), thus causing the different parts of the message to be put in 
different MIME body parts (as described in FAQ 4.39 at 
).


You could try deleting all list-specific headers and footers and re-creating 
them, this time making sure that you don't put in any non-ASCII characters. 
 Or maybe you've got ASCII characters in there, but there are non-ASCII 
characters in the submitted message, such as accented characters in 
someone's name or signature?


Other than that, I have no idea how this kind of thing would happen.



The .htm extension on the middle "attachment" which I assume is the
message body indicates she is not sending a text/plain message but
rather a text/html message, and content filtering is not removing the
html part or converting it to plain text. The other "attachments" are
probably the msg_header and msg_footer as Brad suggests. The FAQ Brad
references is the relevant one. The difference between lists may be
that this is the only one that adds msg_header and msg_footer.
  
As Brad wrote, I found some non-ascii characters in the introduction 
description
from the general options for the list so I removed them.  I asked the 
list admin to send
another message to the list.  BTW, I asked the admin to add me as a 
member so I can

see what is happening.

I may not have this exactly right, but the only way to know for sure is
to see a raw message from the list or at least the content of the
three "attachments"
  
If this does not resolve the issue, I will add the attachments in my 
next email to

the group.

Thanks, Darren
ODU
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Issue with text to Mailman list serve

[Mark Sapiro]

Brad Knowles wrote:

>Darren G Pifer wrote:
>
>> One of our list serve administrators is experiencing an issue with one of
>> her listserves.


If it's a Listserv(r) list, why are you posting here :)

(Listserv(r) is a registered trademark[1] owned by the developer of a
particular email list management product, and it shouldn't be used
generically.)



>> Here is her description of the issue.  She is sending
>> text to her listserve which is a moderated list.  She approves the
>> message but as a member of the list, the email is received with 3
>> attachments:  ATT1.c,  ATT2.htm, and ATT3.c.  The
>> administrator has 2 other lists and when she sends text, she receives
>> them as text.  She would like email sent as text to be received as text.
>
>The only time I've heard of anything like this is when there are different 
>character sets being used in some of the headers or footers (sometimes space 
>characters), thus causing the different parts of the message to be put in 
>different MIME body parts (as described in FAQ 4.39 at 
>).
>
>You could try deleting all list-specific headers and footers and re-creating 
>them, this time making sure that you don't put in any non-ASCII characters. 
>  Or maybe you've got ASCII characters in there, but there are non-ASCII 
>characters in the submitted message, such as accented characters in 
>someone's name or signature?
>
>Other than that, I have no idea how this kind of thing would happen.


The .htm extension on the middle "attachment" which I assume is the
message body indicates she is not sending a text/plain message but
rather a text/html message, and content filtering is not removing the
html part or converting it to plain text. The other "attachments" are
probably the msg_header and msg_footer as Brad suggests. The FAQ Brad
references is the relevant one. The difference between lists may be
that this is the only one that adds msg_header and msg_footer.

I may not have this exactly right, but the only way to know for sure is
to see a raw message from the list or at least the content of the
three "attachments"

[1] 

-- 
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Issue with text to Mailman list serve

[Brad Knowles]

Darren G Pifer wrote:


One of our list serve administrators is experiencing an issue with one of
her listserves. Here is her description of the issue.  She is sending
text to her listserve which is a moderated list.  She approves the
message but as a member of the list, the email is received with 3
attachments:  ATT1.c,  ATT2.htm, and ATT3.c.  The
administrator has 2 other lists and when she sends text, she receives
them as text.  She would like email sent as text to be received as text.


The only time I've heard of anything like this is when there are different 
character sets being used in some of the headers or footers (sometimes space 
characters), thus causing the different parts of the message to be put in 
different MIME body parts (as described in FAQ 4.39 at 
).


You could try deleting all list-specific headers and footers and re-creating 
them, this time making sure that you don't put in any non-ASCII characters. 
 Or maybe you've got ASCII characters in there, but there are non-ASCII 
characters in the submitted message, such as accented characters in 
someone's name or signature?


Other than that, I have no idea how this kind of thing would happen.

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