Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!)
At 1:43 AM -0500 12/9/06, John A. Martin wrote: Oops. The first sentence of mine above was intended to end with a question mark rather than an exclamation mark. Maybe that would have sounded better. That would have been somewhat better, yes. Brad I didn't say that Debian did. Alan McConnell said that Brad Mailman had been installed without pipermail: Does that mean that the Debian Package does not carry pipermail? In and of itself, no. It simply means that Alan didn't have pipermail available to him. Brad When asked what kind of whacked-out version of Mailman they Brad were running that didn't include the built-in version of Brad pipermail, he said: Brad mm 2.1.5 . But under Debian, so it has Brad experienced/endured the Debian security upgrade Brad procedures. Does that mean that the Debian Package does not carry pipermail? In and of itself, no. But it did certainly strengthen my belief that we were talking about a standard Mailman package as provided by Debian, yes. Between you and Alan you suggest something that is not true. You are an authority on this list (and elsewhere). Beginners will conclude From your statement that they should avoid using the Debian package. Whether that is good advice or not it is not justified by the line of evidence above. A lot depends on the circumstances under which you read the given messages. You took away one particular set of conclusions, and I took away a different set. But then I most definitely felt strongly attacked in your follow-on response. Excuse me if I have a tendency based upon the above to suspect a readiness to assume that Debian does bizarre things when there is no evidence supporting that assumption. You didn't see any evidence. But just because you didn't see it didn't necessarily mean that it wasn't there. And just because I saw what appeared to be such evidence, doesn't necessarily mean that I was (or was not) wrong. But the fact that I came to what we now understand to be an erroneous conclusion does not let you off the hook for the manner in which you responded. I do not know what there is offensive and no offense was intended. Your private reply was considerably more offensive than the public one, but I certainly felt what I believed to be a pretty strong current of intentionally implied offense. Of course, we all know about the vagaries of human communications, and how 99% of that is lost via mechanisms such as e-mail. And that's a sword that cuts both ways. I generally try to be precise and succinct. I think you and I may suffer the same disease here. We both seem to appreciate precision and brevity, but I believe we both have a tendency to verbosity. And through verbosity, I think we may both have a tendency to be less clear to others than we would like, or than we appear to ourselves. We both need editors. Strong ones. The kind of editor that Tom Clancy used to have, before he became really famous -- and rich. The kind of editor that would force us to fight to the death for each and every word, and only let us win the battles that we really should win. I'm not convinced that either of us is a particularly good self-editor, at least not all the time. And that may sometimes have certain negative consequences, as we have seen. If one clicks one of the buttons mentioned, one sees a URL something like http://packages.debian.org/cgi-bin/search_contents.pl?searchmode=filelistword=mailmanversion=unstablearch=i386 (for the i386 architecture) which I thought was uglier than mentioning the button to click at the URL I gave. I did that. And I didn't see Pipermail.py anywhere on that page. I'm sure that if I went through the complete list of fifty-plus pages, or had seen the all files link, and then done a find within the page, then I would have found the module in question. But that didn't happen. Since you obviously did find the file in question, and therefore you obviously had the URL to the page where that could be found, and you recognized that the URL in question was long and unwieldy, you could easily have short-circuited the whole mess by putting that through a facility like tinyurl.com. In fact, this whole business could have been stopped dead in it's tracks, by a simple response to the effect of: Uh, sorry -- I have to disagree. I don't mean to offend anyone, but Debian does provide pipermail as a standard part of the package, such as shown at http://tinyurl.com/yfrdxw, then do a find within the page for pipermail. Hope that helps. And you could shorten that down even further. If you had bothered to click on one of the list of files buttons you would have (for the i386 archetecture) seen the pipermail.py file as the 19th of 3438 files. As I said, I did that. And I did a find within
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!)
At 3:16 PM +0900 12/9/06, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: The mailman package did install a complete Mailman on several Debian systems where I use Mailman. Understood. At least, now I do. The problem is that the conversation I had with Alan up to that point had lead me to believe that we were talking about a standard Mailman installation as provided in package format by Debian, and yet Alan's configuration clearly lacked what I consider to be a pretty important core component. There's a disconnect there, but I wasn't seeing it. And the way John approached the situation in his response was ... not appreciated. This policy will occasionally result in the kind of problem we see here. It's a tradeoff. You don't like it as it manifests on Mailman-Users, and you shouldn't---all we're ever going to see here is the bugs. But all you need to say is the Mailman project distributes Mailman with the pipermail archiver included. If you don't have it, it is a packaging issue. Your vendor Debian needs to know about it, and you need to get support from them. Actually, when all is said and done, I think John did have a valid point, and we need to modify this slightly. We need to go further and tell them that this *may* be a packaging issue, and that they need to consult with their administrator or their vendor, or whomever actually installed the software or is responsible for administering the software and/or hardware, to confirm whether or not this actually is a standard version installed from a package somewhere, or if this has been customized by someone. If the former, then they would need to contact the vendor who created the package, otherwise they need to contact whomever did the customization. But someone needs to find a simpler way to explain this. In sum, I think you are doing the Mailman project a disservice by denigrating Debian. If they're really doing their users such a disservice, you (or somebody from Mailman who understands the issues) should report it as a bug. In my experience the various distros, including Debian, are responsive to upstream maintainers. I still don't feel that we should be responsible for reporting bugs to all the hundreds or thousands of distributions, open source OSes, commercial OSes, etc I don't think that is a goal that would should even attempt to chase, because I don't believe that we could possibly have the resources necessary to begin to try to achieve it. We are not the user of the Debian software in question. We should not be required to report what we consider to be bugs through their tracking system. Yes, there should be improved communication between our group and the respective parties at the various OS vendors and distributors, but that's also a two-way street -- if they're taking our code and making any modifications to it, then they should be feeding those back to us. The real irony here is that I just remembered that at least one person responsible for maintaining the Mailman package for Debian has subscribed to the mailman-developers list and has started feeding back some changes into our system, based on things they've done. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trend Micro has announced that they will cancel the stop.mail-abuse.org mail forwarding service as of 15 November 2006. If you have an old e-mail account for me at this domain, please make sure you correct that with the current address. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!)
Brad Knowles wrote: The problem is that the conversation I had with Alan up to that point had lead me to believe that we were talking about a standard Mailman installation as provided in package format by Debian, and yet Alan's configuration clearly lacked what I consider to be a pretty important core component. As I tried to indicate in another post, there are possibilities other than a defect/lack in the Debian package that can cause what Alan observed. To elaborate a bit on http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2006-December/054908.html, there are mm_cfg.py settings that can affect archiving in a particular installation. ARCHIVE_TO_MBOX = -1 disables archiving completely ARCHIVE_TO_MBOX = 1 disables pipermail leaving only .mbox archiving DEFAULT_ARCHIVE = No sets archive to No as the default for a new list, which setting might be overlooked by an inexperienced list owner. There are other settings that could cause pipermail archiving to fail or be bypassed for a particular installation. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!)
On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 06:04:55PM -0500, Barry Warsaw wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Dec 7, 2006, at 5:22 PM, Paul Tomblin wrote: I've just spent two days manipulating a bunch of mbox files into archives. Let me tell you how it goes: [Screams of pain omitted] Have I mentioned recently how long I've been looking for a volunteer to help make all this not suck? ;} Pipermail is just one of those things that people either live with or ditch. Neither of you gentlemen is cheering me up! The horrible news: the mailman that I admin is run on my ISP. The chance that the PatriotNet people will reboot to get my archive in order is . . . not great, to say the least. The less bad news: there are no archives existing on this list. PatriotNet has just installed mailman(actually about two months ago) and only one person(me) is AFAIK yelling for archives. Alan, hoping for cheerier information -- Alan McConnell : http://patriot.net/users/alan The intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy. Impeachment proceedings should be started immediately. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!)
On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 06:23:40PM -0600, Brad Knowles wrote: At 4:57 PM -0500 12/7/06, Alan McConnell wrote: Meanwhile, I am adminning(sp?), through my ISP, a new but quite active E-list. But their mailman install is incomplete; they haven't put in Pipermail(about which I know _nothing_). Uh, what version of Mailman is that? I thought that Mailman had fully integrated Pipermail along with the base code, for many years now? Are they running Mailman 1.x or something? mm 2.1.5 . But under Debian, so it has experienced/endured the Debian security upgrade procedures. and massage these messages and then ship them off to the new very skilful tech staff that my ISP is allegedly hiring, and they will be able to slip this collection adroitly into place. And it will be as if archiving was always in place . . . So long as you save the messages in mbox format, and you have access to the command-line, you can always use the arch tool to import the old messages into the new archives. The instructions for doing this kind of stuff are in the FAQ. But if you don't have direct command-line access to the server, then you'll be dependant on the staff that do. And from what you've described, that's really the crux of the problem you're already faced with. You are exactly right. It is, like so many other thingsg, a political problem. PatriotNet is a small ISP; its founder died, the widow sold to another, totally incompetent, company . . . but now it has passed to yet another company, which is known to have Linux/Unix competent people, and which makes good noises in re tech support. Since you say mbox format and since my MUA is mutt, set up to use mbox, I think/hope/believe I am OK . . . but time will tell. Many thanks to you and to the others who have chimed in. This E-list is wonderful; run the way a help list should be IMHO. Best wishes, Alan -- Alan McConnell : http://patriot.net/users/alan There are many good Impeachment sites; one of the best is: www.waifllc.org -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!)
At 7:52 AM -0500 12/8/06, Alan McConnell quoted me: Uh, what version of Mailman is that? I thought that Mailman had fully integrated Pipermail along with the base code, for many years now? Are they running Mailman 1.x or something? mm 2.1.5 . But under Debian, so it has experienced/endured the Debian security upgrade procedures. Okay, now that is one of the most bizarre things I've heard of in a very long time. I cannot comprehend how they could possibly ship a version of Mailman 2.1.x that does not automatically include the bundled Pipermail component. Congratulations -- I've been in this business long enough that I don't get too many surprises like this anymore. Yet, Mailman has recently provided me these kinds of surprises twice in the last couple of weeks or so. There should definitely be some sort of prize that you win as a result of your experience. You are exactly right. It is, like so many other thingsg, a political problem. PatriotNet is a small ISP; its founder died, the widow sold to another, totally incompetent, company . . . but now it has passed to yet another company, which is known to have Linux/Unix competent people, and which makes good noises in re tech support. Ahh. PatriotNet. I had heard good things about them years ago, but it's been a while since I've seen that name. Interesting to see what has since happened to that company. Since you say mbox format and since my MUA is mutt, set up to use mbox, I think/hope/believe I am OK . . . but time will tell. In terms of the mbox format itself, you should be fine. I'm seriously thinking of switching back to mutt myself (after being away for so many years), because Qualcomm/Eudora have decided to kill the product as a separate program and the next major version is going to be based on the Thunderbird platform. Of course, if I wanted Thunderbird, I'd be using Thunderbird. I have over 6GB of archives in Eudora's slightly modified version of mbox archives, and I'm not looking forward to what I'm going to have to do in order to move to a different program. I may take a look at what happens with Eudora after the change, I might go ahead and switch to real Thunderbird, or I might switch to a different program altogether -- which would almost certainly be mutt. I haven't decided yet. But regardless of what happens to me, you should definitely be fine with mutt. I think your issue is going to be the level of support that you get from the people who have yet to be brought in to help manage the systems, and whether or not they have the level of clue and talent required to be able to properly import your mailboxes for the archives. As far as that goes, about all I can do is to wish you luck, and then we all wait to see what happens. Many thanks to you and to the others who have chimed in. This E-list is wonderful; run the way a help list should be IMHO. I'm pretty much always glad to help, if I can -- as permitted by time and available resources. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trend Micro has announced that they will cancel the stop.mail-abuse.org mail forwarding service as of 15 November 2006. If you have an old e-mail account for me at this domain, please make sure you correct that with the current address. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!)
On Thu, 7 Dec 2006, Barry Warsaw wrote: Have I mentioned recently how long I've been looking for a volunteer to help make all this not suck? ;} Pipermail is just one of those things that people either live with or ditch. I've used Hypermail for probably a decade to archive Majordomo lists. It makes web archives from mbox files natively. == Chris Candreva -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!)
Mark Sapiro wrote: Paul Tomblin wrote: Quoting Barry Warsaw ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): It already does escape From lines in the body of the message. It does this by way of the email package's Generator class, which is instantiated with mangle_from_=True. Must be a newer version than the one in Debian stable. I grepped for mangle in /var/lib/mailman/Mailman/*, and didn't find it. The parameter does appear in /usr/lib/python2.3/email/Generator.py, but since I don't know python I don't know how to pass it to it. I'm guessing it has something to do with changing the g = Generator(fp) and g = Generator(outfp) lines in Mailman/ListAdmin.py or more likely the g = Generator(self.fp) line in Mailman/Mailbox.py? Is it as simple as changing that last one to g = Generator(self.fp,mangle_from_=True)? Yes it is. And I think Barry may have misspoken as I don't think that change is in the SVN trunk or Release_2_1-maint branch. According to the docs for email.Generator, mangle_from defaults to True and has since at least python 2.3. So setting it shouldn't be needed AFAICS. In that case, shouldn't any message that reaches mailman with an unescaped From_ line in the body already be handled properly? It seems like something else must be borked. That or all of the messages in a list mbox that contain unescaped From_ lines got there from really old versions of Mailman/python. -- ToddOpenPGP - KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp == You know an odd feeling? Sitting on the toilet eating a chocolate candy bar. -- George Carlin, Napalm Silly Putty pgp0YagKhc7uk.pgp Description: PGP signature -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!)
Quoting Todd Zullinger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Mark Sapiro wrote: Paul Tomblin wrote: Quoting Barry Warsaw ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): It already does escape From lines in the body of the message. It does this by way of the email package's Generator class, which is instantiated with mangle_from_=True. According to the docs for email.Generator, mangle_from defaults to True and has since at least python 2.3. So setting it shouldn't be needed AFAICS. Oh right, now I get it. I told you I didn't know Python, but I should have been able to figure that def __init__(self, outfp, mangle_from_=True, maxheaderlen=78): meant that it defaulted to True in Generator.py so didn't need to be changed in Mailman. In that case, shouldn't any message that reaches mailman with an unescaped From_ line in the body already be handled properly? It seems like something else must be borked. That or all of the messages in a list mbox that contain unescaped From_ lines got there from really old versions of Mailman/python. That is distinctly possible. The archives in question go back to 1998. I didn't keep track of when the *last* unescaped From_ line was put in the archives. -- Paul Tomblin [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://blog.xcski.com/ It could have been raining flaming bulldozers, and those idiots would have been standing out there smoking, going 'hey, look at that John Deere burn!' -- Texan AMD security guard -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!)
Brad == Brad Knowles Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!) Fri, 8 Dec 2006 08:52:26 -0600 Brad At 7:52 AM -0500 12/8/06, Alan McConnell quoted me: Uh, what version of Mailman is that? I thought that Mailman had fully integrated Pipermail along with the base code, for many years now? Are they running Mailman 1.x or something? mm 2.1.5 . But under Debian, so it has experienced/endured the Debian security upgrade procedures. Brad Okay, now that is one of the most bizarre things I've heard Brad of in a very long time. I cannot comprehend how they could Brad possibly ship a version of Mailman 2.1.x that does not Brad automatically include the bundled Pipermail component. Brad Congratulations -- I've been in this business long enough Brad that I don't get too many surprises like this anymore. Yet, Brad Mailman has recently provided me these kinds of surprises Brad twice in the last couple of weeks or so. Brad There should definitely be some sort of prize that you win Brad as a result of your experience. See http://packages.debian.org/unstable/mail/mailman for a description of the Debian Mailman package that integrates ... archiving Further down that page under the heading Download mailman click on one of the list of files buttons and see among other things: usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py jam pgpMEZkVN4gX6.pgp Description: PGP signature -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!)
Paul Tomblin wrote: Oh right, now I get it. I told you I didn't know Python, but I should have been able to figure that def __init__(self, outfp, mangle_from_=True, maxheaderlen=78): meant that it defaulted to True in Generator.py so didn't need to be changed in Mailman. :-) I actually trusted the docs (which I probably shouldn't do). But you're right, the __init__ line confirms the default setting for mangle_from. In that case, shouldn't any message that reaches mailman with an unescaped From_ line in the body already be handled properly? It seems like something else must be borked. That or all of the messages in a list mbox that contain unescaped From_ lines got there from really old versions of Mailman/python. That is distinctly possible. The archives in question go back to 1998. I didn't keep track of when the *last* unescaped From_ line was put in the archives. It still sucks that you have to muck around with the mboxes to get pipermail to archive them properly. I feel your pain. I am currently trying to get another lists archives into better shape and have run into the same issue. I'm seriously lacking in the skill to fix pipermail or I'd take Barry up on trying to fix it. -- ToddOpenPGP - KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp == An idea is not responsible for the people who believe in it. -- Anonymous pgpKLGsxj1cPw.pgp Description: PGP signature -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Dec 8, 2006, at 11:10 AM, Paul Tomblin wrote: In that case, shouldn't any message that reaches mailman with an unescaped From_ line in the body already be handled properly? It seems like something else must be borked. That or all of the messages in a list mbox that contain unescaped From_ lines got there from really old versions of Mailman/python. That is distinctly possible. The archives in question go back to 1998. I didn't keep track of when the *last* unescaped From_ line was put in the archives. Sorry, I should have been clearer that the /default/ behavior of the generator is to mangle From_ lines. So it's true that nothing in Mailman should need to be changed. However, it's also true that in the distant past, there were some bugs in the mbox implementation which would cause broken mbox files to be written. A quick scan through the svn logs jogs my memory: r6341 on 2003-04-17 was added to fix a message separation bug. I don't know how long that bug was lurking, but the fix puts it just before the 2.1.2 release according to the NEWS file. I'll bet that it existed from 2.1 final (Dec 2002) until 2.1.2 (Apr 2003), the latter which was probably released specifically to fix this problem! Note that this bug had no effect on the archiving of new messages on the fly. Those always got archived correctly. But the message was appended to the mbox file incorrectly which meant that if you regenerated your archives, you'd be screwed. This was what bin/ cleanarch was intended to fix. BTW, one less ambitious way to participate here to help fix things would be to improve bin/cleanarch. At the very least, you should be able to run that script and get an mbox file that bin/arch can use to DTRT. It would also be nice if bin/arch was able to compensate for running out of memory, possibly by changing it to fork a sub-process to do the actual archiving with the parent process pre-chunking the workload for the child. Anyway, I'm cc'ing mailman-developers. Further discussion of how to improve matters should be conducted on that list (and mailman-users should be removed). - -Barry -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) iQCVAwUBRXmlMHEjvBPtnXfVAQIFYAP/W2LEOrKhqrB6sDniHKADAV5iMuLm19zu nUkvrJpOumD78+tRDa1DCQG8RaCSAZ7bNkTA2VwIUgcX1I4+9d7ylklonQSiRJzB xbg+OBD5+x5q+Cdo9qX1dhlGWTdmrSReN0CLRx6408JX8qtXhIh+3S0f3tG44bYE lB76OX4HPXo= =nhI8 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!)
Brad Knowles wrote: At 7:52 AM -0500 12/8/06, Alan McConnell quoted me: Uh, what version of Mailman is that? I thought that Mailman had fully integrated Pipermail along with the base code, for many years now? Are they running Mailman 1.x or something? mm 2.1.5 . But under Debian, so it has experienced/endured the Debian security upgrade procedures. Okay, now that is one of the most bizarre things I've heard of in a very long time. I cannot comprehend how they could possibly ship a version of Mailman 2.1.x that does not automatically include the bundled Pipermail component. But the hosting service could set ARCHIVE_TO_MBOX = 1 in mm_cfg.py to disable pipermail archiving and archive only to the .mbox file. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!)
At 11:43 AM -0500 12/8/06, John A. Martin wrote: See http://packages.debian.org/unstable/mail/mailman for a description of the Debian Mailman package that integrates archiving Further down that page under the heading Download mailman click on one of the list of files buttons and see among other things: usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py I've never claimed to be a Debian expert, and if they're mucking about with packages that include certain features by default in order to remove those features, then there's not much I can do to help the poor souls that are stuck with that kind of stuff. However, no amount of your expecting me to do fact-checking with the way that Debian is building their highly modified packaged versions of our software is going to change that. It's physically impossible to keep up with how every single vendor is choosing to ship our software. As far as I'm concerned, Debian is now further in the doghouse with me with regards to Mailman than most any other vendor, with the possible exception of cPanel. Even Apple ships a relatively plain-jane version of Mailman 2.1.5 with their MacOS X Server platform, even if they do have their own proprietary management system that they tack on. Now, if you want to side with the Debian folks on this, you're welcome to do that. But no one in that camp is going to be getting any sympathy from me. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trend Micro has announced that they will cancel the stop.mail-abuse.org mail forwarding service as of 15 November 2006. If you have an old e-mail account for me at this domain, please make sure you correct that with the current address. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!)
Quoting Brad Knowles ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
At 11:43 AM -0500 12/8/06, John A. Martin wrote:
See http://packages.debian.org/unstable/mail/mailman for a
description of the Debian Mailman package that integrates
archiving Further down that page under the heading
Download mailman click on one of the list of files buttons and see
among other things: usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py
I've never claimed to be a Debian expert, and if they're mucking
about with packages that include certain features by default in order
to remove those features, then there's not much I can do to help the
poor souls that are stuck with that kind of stuff.
I don't know what John is experiencing, but I'm using Mailman installed
from Debian Stable, and have been for a couple of years, and it's always
had pipermail.
--
Paul Tomblin [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://blog.xcski.com/
What we obtain too cheap we esteem too lightly; it is dearness only that
gives everything its value. - Thomas Paine.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!)
Paul == Paul Tomblin
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!)
Fri, 8 Dec 2006 20:04:51 -0500
Alan == Alan McConnell
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!)
Fri, 8 Dec 2006 07:52:33 -0500
Paul Quoting Brad Knowles ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
At 11:43 AM -0500 12/8/06, John A. Martin wrote:
See http://packages.debian.org/unstable/mail/mailman for a
description of the Debian Mailman package that integrates
archiving Further down that page under the
heading Download mailman click on one of the list of
files buttons and see among other things:
usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py
I've never claimed to be a Debian expert, and if they're
mucking about with packages that include certain features by
default in order to remove those features,
What makes you, Brad, think that Debian removes pipermail when shown
where it can be seen by anybody that it is included! What mucking
about or other removal of features are you, or someone else, referring
to?
then there's not much I can do to help the poor souls that are
stuck with that kind of stuff.
The first recourse when having trouble with a Debian package should
not be to the upstream but to the Debian maintainers, usually via a
Debian Bug report.
Paul I don't know what John is experiencing,
I am experiencing dismay at the innuendo followed by disinformation
with respect to the Debian Mailman package.
Paul but I'm using Mailman installed from Debian Stable, and have
Paul been for a couple of years, and it's always had pipermail.
Yes. AFICT the absence of pipermail from the Debian Mailman is a
fantasy held only by Brad Knowles as the explanation for difficulties
experienced by a user who remarked as follows:
Alan mm 2.1.5 . But under Debian, so it has
Alan experienced/endured the Debian security upgrade
Alan procedures.
jam
pgpETWwqkMUPs.pgp
Description: PGP signature
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!)
At 10:17 PM -0500 12/8/06, John A. Martin wrote: I've never claimed to be a Debian expert, and if they're mucking about with packages that include certain features by default in order to remove those features, What makes you, Brad, think that Debian removes pipermail when shown where it can be seen by anybody that it is included! What mucking about or other removal of features are you, or someone else, referring to? I didn't say that Debian did. Alan McConnell said that Mailman had been installed without pipermail: Meanwhile, I am adminning(sp?), through my ISP, a new but quite active E-list. But their mailman install is incomplete; they haven't put in Pipermail (about which I know _nothing_). When asked what kind of whacked-out version of Mailman they were running that didn't include the built-in version of pipermail, he said: mm 2.1.5 . But under Debian, so it has experienced/endured the Debian security upgrade procedures. To which my reply was: Okay, now that is one of the most bizarre things I've heard of in a very long time. I cannot comprehend how they could possibly ship a version of Mailman 2.1.x that does not automatically include the bundled Pipermail component. This lead to your mildly offensive reply, where you publicly said: See http://packages.debian.org/unstable/mail/mailman for a description of the Debian Mailman package that integrates archiving Further down that page under the heading Download mailman click on one of the list of files buttons and see among other things: usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py Yet nowhere on that page do I find any reference to pipermail. If you had wanted to provide proof that Debian provides pipermail as part of the package, you should have been much less obtuse and offensive with your language, and much more explicit in the URL you provided. Based on what I saw on that page, and the rude behaviour I was seeing from you, I concluded that Debian had actually done precisely what I had previously commented on to Alan, and led to my response: I've never claimed to be a Debian expert, and if they're mucking about with packages that include certain features by default in order to remove those features, then there's not much I can do to help the poor souls that are stuck with that kind of stuff. However, no amount of your expecting me to do fact-checking with the way that Debian is building their highly modified packaged versions of our software is going to change that. It's physically impossible to keep up with how every single vendor is choosing to ship our software. Note that I do not, at any time, make an outright claim that Debian was stripping pipermail from the Mailman package that they were providing -- I said ... if they're mucking about with packages that include certain features by default to remove those features Obviously the subtle difference in this statement was completely lost on you. The first recourse when having trouble with a Debian package should not be to the upstream but to the Debian maintainers, usually via a Debian Bug report. I don't think it's appropriate for us to be filing bug reports on these sorts of things with package maintainers of a given platform. If the users of those packages wish to file bug reports, I would fully support that. If the package maintainers wish to come back to us and file bug reports against our code in our bug tracking system, I welcome that. But no one here has the time to go tracking down every single bloody bizarre behaviour that may or may not be a result of something strange that a package maintainer decided to do, and then to track them down and sit on them until they fix their bug. That is, unless you're volunteering to do that, of course. If so, then please just go ahead and do so, and quit making worse a situation that is already pretty bad to begin with. Paul I don't know what John is experiencing, I am experiencing dismay at the innuendo followed by disinformation with respect to the Debian Mailman package. If you want clarity in a discussion, it would really help if you would actually provide some measure of clarity in your own postings. If I've made a mistake, and that fact is pointed out to me in a reasonably neutral and constructive way, I generally accept and even welcome the correction and genuinely work towards a good resolution to the problem. However, if your first reaction is obtuse and offensive bluster with baseball bats, then you damn well better be prepared for the kind of reaction you're going to receive. Paul but I'm using Mailman installed from Debian Stable, and have Paul been for a couple of years, and it's always had pipermail. Yes.
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!)
Brad Knowles writes: I've never claimed to be a Debian expert, and if they're mucking about with packages that include certain features by default in order to remove those features, then there's not much I can do to help the poor souls that are stuck with that kind of stuff. That's not what they do. Debian splits packages into components for ease of maintenance of the package infrastructure. Users are expected to select virtual packages that cause a collection of components to be installed. By design, the package named mailman is either a complete virtual package, or a single package that contains all of Mailman. A package named after the upstream package is intended to install all of it. It works. The mailman package did install a complete Mailman on several Debian systems where I use Mailman. This is not the same as cPanel, which *does* deliberately inhibit capabilities that Mailman admins need. This is a situation where the user misjudges what the bug is, and reports to the wrong channel. It's not terribly nice of Debian to risk your time on their ability to create robust, non-buggy virtual packages, but it is the result of providing a service that the Mailman project does not, and should not. This policy will occasionally result in the kind of problem we see here. It's a tradeoff. You don't like it as it manifests on Mailman-Users, and you shouldn't---all we're ever going to see here is the bugs. But all you need to say is the Mailman project distributes Mailman with the pipermail archiver included. If you don't have it, it is a packaging issue. Your vendor Debian needs to know about it, and you need to get support from them. In sum, I think you are doing the Mailman project a disservice by denigrating Debian. If they're really doing their users such a disservice, you (or somebody from Mailman who understands the issues) should report it as a bug. In my experience the various distros, including Debian, are responsive to upstream maintainers. Regards, -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!)
Brad == Brad Knowles Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!) Fri, 8 Dec 2006 22:28:19 -0600 Brad At 10:17 PM -0500 12/8/06, John A. Martin wrote: I've never claimed to be a Debian expert, and if they're mucking about with packages that include certain features by default in order to remove those features, What makes you, Brad, think that Debian removes pipermail when shown where it can be seen by anybody that it is included! What mucking about or other removal of features are you, or someone else, referring to? Oops. The first sentence of mine above was intended to end with a question mark rather than an exclamation mark. Maybe that would have sounded better. Brad I didn't say that Debian did. Alan McConnell said that Brad Mailman had been installed without pipermail: Does that mean that the Debian Package does not carry pipermail? Brad Meanwhile, I am adminning(sp?), through my ISP, a new Brad but quite active E-list. But their mailman install is Brad incomplete; they haven't put in Pipermail (about which Brad I know _nothing_). Brad When asked what kind of whacked-out version of Mailman they Brad were running that didn't include the built-in version of Brad pipermail, he said: Brad mm 2.1.5 . But under Debian, so it has Brad experienced/endured the Debian security upgrade Brad procedures. Does that mean that the Debian Package does not carry pipermail? Brad To which my reply was: Brad Okay, now that is one of the most bizarre things I've Brad heard of in a very long time. I cannot comprehend how Brad they could possibly ship a version of Mailman 2.1.x Brad that does not automatically include the bundled Brad Pipermail component. Between you and Alan you suggest something that is not true. You are an authority on this list (and elsewhere). Beginners will conclude From your statement that they should avoid using the Debian package. Whether that is good advice or not it is not justified by the line of evidence above. Excuse me if I have a tendency based upon the above to suspect a readiness to assume that Debian does bizarre things when there is no evidence supporting that assumption. Brad This lead to your mildly offensive reply, where you publicly Brad said: Brad See http://packages.debian.org/unstable/mail/mailman Brad for a description of the Debian Mailman package that Brad integrates archiving Further down that Brad page under the heading Download mailman click on one Brad of the list of files buttons and see among other Brad things: Brad usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py I do not know what there is offensive and no offense was intended. I generally try to be precise and succinct. If one clicks one of the buttons mentioned, one sees a URL something like http://packages.debian.org/cgi-bin/search_contents.pl?searchmode=filelistword=mailmanversion=unstablearch=i386 (for the i386 architecture) which I thought was uglier than mentioning the button to click at the URL I gave. Brad Yet nowhere on that page do I find any reference to Brad pipermail. If you had wanted to provide proof that Debian Brad provides pipermail as part of the package, you should have Brad been much less obtuse and offensive with your language, and Brad much more explicit in the URL you provided. If you had bothered to click on one of the list of files buttons you would have (for the i386 archetecture) seen the pipermail.py file as the 19th of 3438 files. The first recourse when having trouble with a Debian package should not be to the upstream but to the Debian maintainers, usually via a Debian Bug report. Brad I don't think it's appropriate for us to be filing bug Brad reports on these sorts of things with package maintainers of Brad a given platform. If the users of those packages wish to Brad file bug reports, I would fully support that. If the Brad package maintainers wish to come back to us and file bug Brad reports against our code in our bug tracking system, I Brad welcome that. I agree with what you say in the paragraph above and would have thought that went without saying. However when packaging issues arise I think it would be good to suggest that users of various distributions should consult whatever support the distribution offers. For the Debian Mailman package, which does not have a related Debian mailing list, the Debian user should usually file a Debian Bug report. Presumably the one having trouble with a Debian package is a Debian user not the us which I take to mean you and the Mailman community as a whole. I've said enough. My enthusiasm is well restrained when it is necessary to craft each sentence
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages
Kory Wheatley wrote: I'm running Mailman 2.1.6 is there a script you can run to automatically remove all archive messages from a list? I'm not sure what you mean by automatically. You can remove all messages from a list's pipermail archive by bin/arch --wipe listname /dev/null -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages
Quoting Mark Sapiro ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Kory Wheatley wrote: I'm running Mailman 2.1.6 is there a script you can run to automatically remove all archive messages from a list? I'm not sure what you mean by automatically. You can remove all messages from a list's pipermail archive by bin/arch --wipe listname /dev/null What, rm -rf not good enough for you? -- Paul Tomblin [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://blog.xcski.com/ 10 ways to stop users mistaking you for a normal person (4): When booting a workstation, shout out all console output 1/2 a second before it appears. Do this with your eyes closed and fists clenched. -- Steve Mitchell -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages
Paul Tomblin wrote: Quoting Mark Sapiro ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): [...] You can remove all messages from a list's pipermail archive by bin/arch --wipe listname /dev/null What, rm -rf not good enough for you? :-) You do have to know the location of the list archives with rm whereas with bin/arch you don't. And if you put a typo into bin/arch it can at worst wipe out the archives of the wrong list, not large chunks of your file system. -- ToddOpenPGP - KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp == What do Atheists scream during sex? 'Ohhh, chemical chance, chemical chance' -- Bill Hicks pgpbI47HvJSbY.pgp Description: PGP signature -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages
At 3:37 PM -0500 12/7/06, Todd Zullinger wrote: You do have to know the location of the list archives with rm whereas with bin/arch you don't. And if you put a typo into bin/arch it can at worst wipe out the archives of the wrong list, not large chunks of your file system. Everyone raise your hand if you have accidentally done the command: # rm -rf / path/to/file/structure/you/really/want/to/delete Or, managed to do the right command on the wrong machine (where you've connected to one system, then from there to another, etc...). /me raises both hands There's lots of other stupid sysadmin tricks. Trust me, I've learned the hard way. Tools like bin/arch are much safer, albeit also slower. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trend Micro has announced that they will cancel the stop.mail-abuse.org mail forwarding service as of 15 November 2006. If you have an old e-mail account for me at this domain, please make sure you correct that with the current address. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages
Quoting Brad Knowles ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Tools like bin/arch are much safer, albeit also slower. I've lost more files to badly written programs than to PEBKAC errors. So I'd be more inclined to trust rm than arch. -- Paul Tomblin [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://blog.xcski.com/ This also tells they understand our language. They are just not willing to speak to us using it. Who knew they were French? - Babylon 5 -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages
Brad Knowles wrote: Everyone raise your hand if you have accidentally done the command: # rm -rf / path/to/file/structure/you/really/want/to/delete Or rm -rf /path/to/somethingstar and typed it rm -rf /path/to/something star Those pesky spaces - always raising havoc... And that darned command shell - tell it something so obviously wrong and it goes ahead and does it anyway, every time. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages
Paul Tomblin wrote: I've lost more files to badly written programs than to PEBKAC errors. So I'd be more inclined to trust rm than arch. This thread is fun, but just to be clear, I responded the way I did to the OP because the OP was not at all clear about what was wanted, so I gave an answer that would not remove the list.mbox file in case it was still wanted and would not remove structure that might be required to continue archiving new posts. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!)
On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 03:37:41PM -0500, Todd Zullinger wrote: What, rm -rf not good enough for you? G Yeah, yeah. Meanwhile, I am adminning(sp?), through my ISP, a new but quite active E-list. But their mailman install is incomplete; they haven't put in Pipermail(about which I know _nothing_). I'm saving all the messages -- mbox format -- and have the hope that when the Pipermail archiving program is installed, I will be able to collect, collate, shuffle, and massage these messages and then ship them off to the new very skilful tech staff that my ISP is allegedly hiring, and they will be able to slip this collection adroitly into place. And it will be as if archiving was always in place . . . Can this be done? or am I dreaming wild dreams? Best wishes, Alan -- Alan McConnell : http://patriot.net/users/alan The intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy. Impeachment proceedings should be started immediately. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!)
I just checked my blog, and found I message a step: Quoting Paul Tomblin ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): I've just spent two days manipulating a bunch of mbox files into archives. Let me tell you how it goes: 1. Blow away the html archives. You may prefer to use that arch command we were just discussing, but I used rm -rf /var/lib/mailman/archives/private/listname 2. Stop mailman's qrunners using /etc/init.d/mailman stop 3. Run bin/arch on the huge mbox file. 3a. Discover that bin/arch is dying on lines in the mbox where somebody's broken MUA was putting in a Content-Type: header with a charset of .chrsc. Use sed to change that to us-ascii. Delete the html archives again and start bin/arch again. 4. Discover that bin/arch is consuming all the memory and swap on the system, and your system has ground to a halt. -- Paul Tomblin [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://blog.xcski.com/ I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things. -- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Dec 7, 2006, at 5:22 PM, Paul Tomblin wrote: I've just spent two days manipulating a bunch of mbox files into archives. Let me tell you how it goes: [Screams of pain omitted] Have I mentioned recently how long I've been looking for a volunteer to help make all this not suck? ;} Pipermail is just one of those things that people either live with or ditch. - -Barry -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) iQCVAwUBRXieF3EjvBPtnXfVAQJBhQQAizP4wyVUW5elAghpRvNPbs/nPqwF/0NY 3J5dT8xwNCU2RPMPTA++3HjYZiWnkpkqpZHEMYjAdzLzQErhPPFwsJeXlslpmZMt Lt6e20JzdzVo3s1mZoWRiOmSCxibB8sDpoikqSOiCaCjYwOzkWGZO3/eVkqgRsyL +RVqWL7/IqA= =07al -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!)
Quoting Paul Tomblin ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): 8. Discover that the mbox file had a bunch of un-escaped From lines that confused bin/arch and so you have a bunch of half-articles in today's archive page that shouldn't be there. Run bin/cleanarch to fix them, blow away the html archives, and then resplit the mbox file and run bin/arch on the splits. Speaking of which, is there any way to modify Mailman so that when it puts a mail message in the mbox, it pre-escapes the ^From lines in the message? Mailman knows the message boundaries at that point, so it would be nice if it were to put it in a format that bin/arch can handle. -- Paul Tomblin [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://blog.xcski.com/ Every fleeting thought you've ever had in your life, no matter how bizarre, is someone's lifelong obsession. And he has a website. -- Skif's Internet Theorem -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!)
Quoting Barry Warsaw ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): [Screams of pain omitted] Have I mentioned recently how long I've been looking for a volunteer to help make all this not suck? ;} Pipermail is just one of those things that people either live with or ditch. I suppose it would be a good excuse to learn python. But on the other hand, I've been seriously considering moving to mhonarc. -- Paul Tomblin [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://blog.xcski.com/ Man in the tower, this is the man in the bird, I'm ready to go, so give me the word. Man in the bird, this is the man in the tower, you sound funny, delay's an hour. - Rod Machado -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Dec 7, 2006, at 6:35 PM, Paul Tomblin wrote: Quoting Paul Tomblin ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): 8. Discover that the mbox file had a bunch of un-escaped From lines that confused bin/arch and so you have a bunch of half-articles in today's archive page that shouldn't be there. Run bin/cleanarch to fix them, blow away the html archives, and then resplit the mbox file and run bin/ arch on the splits. Speaking of which, is there any way to modify Mailman so that when it puts a mail message in the mbox, it pre-escapes the ^From lines in the message? Mailman knows the message boundaries at that point, so it would be nice if it were to put it in a format that bin/arch can handle. It already does escape From lines in the body of the message. It does this by way of the email package's Generator class, which is instantiated with mangle_from_=True. - -Barry -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) iQCVAwUBRXit1HEjvBPtnXfVAQI0vgP+I41D12kcFj93xX6VdvVjE1hT1n2NrkUC GDg6iuc2hlWmY88jnCzxT/nF3mdhzswI8poPlbzcdpJUmQiZaRf0rhdgAiVqeCx2 89LUgE9bSVXphkhYnKfGAtWrefnmcDL2vXmS+afFGEXdQoZ0AU2ooxKFsW20H8Aq QM3gMnlZcrE= =KiEr -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Dec 7, 2006, at 6:37 PM, Paul Tomblin wrote: Quoting Barry Warsaw ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): [Screams of pain omitted] Have I mentioned recently how long I've been looking for a volunteer to help make all this not suck? ;} Pipermail is just one of those things that people either live with or ditch. I suppose it would be a good excuse to learn python. But on the other hand, I've been seriously considering moving to mhonarc. And now you see why Pipermail never gets much better. ;) I'm not blaming you personally of course, it's just that I think when people feel enough pain from Pipermail, rather than try to scratch that itch, they'd rather spend the time integrating a better archiver. I've always said that Pipermail is bundled solely to make it easy for people to have a complete solution out of the box. I don't have much interest in bundling some other (non-Python) archiver with the source distro, although I'd have no problems with downstream packagers doing that if they wanted to. - -Barry -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) iQCVAwUBRXiuy3EjvBPtnXfVAQLaBgP/cx/uEpTyG2/eVVoOTGE/NmDmwjV6bNMe npWM5IDpQHQRMBXxEpnP82PYyQSTAmLWUOHrlMuUkTTRtisIQnGkTilEqDLa1f48 eNNFjFaxq3M0TegoBNSgslx7XNU7k1mdAcxee/6G8+5fytH/gbJmY2EmEZZtl7zo T23PuNWAo1s= =QVlR -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!)
At 4:57 PM -0500 12/7/06, Alan McConnell wrote: Meanwhile, I am adminning(sp?), through my ISP, a new but quite active E-list. But their mailman install is incomplete; they haven't put in Pipermail(about which I know _nothing_). Uh, what version of Mailman is that? I thought that Mailman had fully integrated Pipermail along with the base code, for many years now? Are they running Mailman 1.x or something? I'm saving all the messages -- mbox format -- and have the hope that when the Pipermail archiving program is installed, I will be able to collect, collate, shuffle, and massage these messages and then ship them off to the new very skilful tech staff that my ISP is allegedly hiring, and they will be able to slip this collection adroitly into place. And it will be as if archiving was always in place . . . So long as you save the messages in mbox format, and you have access to the command-line, you can always use the arch tool to import the old messages into the new archives. The instructions for doing this kind of stuff are in the FAQ. But if you don't have direct command-line access to the server, then you'll be dependant on the staff that do. And from what you've described, that's really the crux of the problem you're already faced with. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trend Micro has announced that they will cancel the stop.mail-abuse.org mail forwarding service as of 15 November 2006. If you have an old e-mail account for me at this domain, please make sure you correct that with the current address. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!)
At 5:22 PM -0500 12/7/06, Paul Tomblin wrote: 6. Discover an awk script in the mailman archives that will split the mbox archive into managable chunks. Fix it so that it splits them into 500 message chunks instead of the 80 message chunks it defaults to. There's also the formmail tool from the procmail package. That's probably more robust than the awk script you mention, takes up less memory, is faster, etc Of course, it also requires that you download and install at least that part of procmail, so it requires more work. 7. Run bin/arch on all the chunks one at a time. Yeah, you want to run that tool on the chunks in order, otherwise I think that the message number generation scheme will at least get ugly, if not confused. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trend Micro has announced that they will cancel the stop.mail-abuse.org mail forwarding service as of 15 November 2006. If you have an old e-mail account for me at this domain, please make sure you correct that with the current address. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!)
Quoting Barry Warsaw ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): On Dec 7, 2006, at 6:35 PM, Paul Tomblin wrote: Speaking of which, is there any way to modify Mailman so that when it puts a mail message in the mbox, it pre-escapes the ^From lines in the message? Mailman knows the message boundaries at that point, so it would be nice if it were to put it in a format that bin/arch can handle. It already does escape From lines in the body of the message. It does this by way of the email package's Generator class, which is instantiated with mangle_from_=True. Must be a newer version than the one in Debian stable. I grepped for mangle in /var/lib/mailman/Mailman/*, and didn't find it. The parameter does appear in /usr/lib/python2.3/email/Generator.py, but since I don't know python I don't know how to pass it to it. I'm guessing it has something to do with changing the g = Generator(fp) and g = Generator(outfp) lines in Mailman/ListAdmin.py or more likely the g = Generator(self.fp) line in Mailman/Mailbox.py? Is it as simple as changing that last one to g = Generator(self.fp,mangle_from_=True)? -- Paul Tomblin [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://blog.xcski.com/ Do you have a point, or are you saving it for a special occasion? -- David P. Murphy -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman archive messages(not rm, but install!)
Paul Tomblin wrote: Quoting Barry Warsaw ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): It already does escape From lines in the body of the message. It does this by way of the email package's Generator class, which is instantiated with mangle_from_=True. Must be a newer version than the one in Debian stable. I grepped for mangle in /var/lib/mailman/Mailman/*, and didn't find it. The parameter does appear in /usr/lib/python2.3/email/Generator.py, but since I don't know python I don't know how to pass it to it. I'm guessing it has something to do with changing the g = Generator(fp) and g = Generator(outfp) lines in Mailman/ListAdmin.py or more likely the g = Generator(self.fp) line in Mailman/Mailbox.py? Is it as simple as changing that last one to g = Generator(self.fp,mangle_from_=True)? Yes it is. And I think Barry may have misspoken as I don't think that change is in the SVN trunk or Release_2_1-maint branch. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
