Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman

2012-05-16 Thread Adam McGreggor 
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 04:31:41PM -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> That sounds good, but evidently, judging from the number of
> Debian/Ubuntu packge users who come to this list with mail delivery
> issues because they have ended up with some Postfix configuration that
> combines Mailman aliases and postfix_to_mailman.py in incompatible
> ways

They should be using Exim, and not the monstrosity that is
pkg-exim4...

( http://wiki.debian.org/DefaultMTA#Popcon_report_and_install_size )

(I have a deep dislike of Postfix, my solution to dealing with postfix
is `postconf -n > /root/postfix-perversions` and then `aptitude install
exim4-daemon-heavy`)

There does seem to be a disproportionate amount of postfix queries on
this list, yes.

> people don't look at the Debian documentation. 

But they don't. Part of this I think falls in to how apt handles
STDOUT during an installation. Imagine, if you will, installing thirty
or so packages, and each one, as it crops up, drops out a line or two;
they're not going to be seen, necessarily. Rather than "ah, you should
read your apt.log", my approach would be to amalgamate all of those to
the end -- something I think Homebrew (and most Ruby Gems I've seen)
does fantastically well.

> They look at our
> installation manual or some incompatible web HowTo and wind up with a
> mess.
> 
> I wish they all would read and comprehend the FAQ at
> .

I thought it was exim-users, or similar that would have in the
/listinfo/ page something to the effect of, "use pkg-exim4-users if
you're a Debianista" -- that seems to have gone now. I think Nigel's
on this list; am I mis-remembering?

> >ONe of the reasons why installing from source is not exactly 
> >straight-forward is that Debian has conventions for things like the user 
> >accounts used for specific things.  If you're going to compile Mailman 
> >from source on a Debian-based system, you'll need to either undermine a 
> >lot of other things, or supply the appropriate configure flags so that 
> >Mailman uses the accounts that Debian uses.

FWIW, I tend to use the Debian maintainers' versions of Exim, but have
a couple of patches that are manually applied (well, the deployment
system does them for me).

Packaged versions of software may not always be the most up-to date
version, but, for instance, IIRC, the XSS exploit was fixed-up fairly
quickly after announcement (the heads-up probably helped) -- certainly
more quickly than the time it would have taken for me to manually
apply the patch, 'properly' (rather than doing it from mutt...).

(If I wanted cutting edge, I'd use nightly/trunk from VCS... if it
wasn't bzr (never been able to get my head around it).)


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 just as effectively as by bombs."
-- Kenneth Clark
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman

2012-05-16 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull 
Jérôme writes:

 > Anyway, collaborating with the packagers to improve packages and avoid 
 > troubles in the first place is of course the best, yet time-costly.

Ah, but Mark's time is the (second-most? :-)[1] valuable resource we
have.  That's why I've more or less volunteered.

Footnotes: 
[1]  Guess what's #1!

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman

2012-05-16 Thread Jérôme 

Le 2012-05-16 09:27, Stephen J. Turnbull a écrit :


Maybe improve documents
(including our own -- our web pages should detect Debian/Ubuntu and
Red Hat/Fedora hosted browsers and display big "You probably don't
want to read this, read your distro's docs instead" warnings!)


Regarding this specific item, you shouldn't bother : there are chances 
that the mailman installation is on a server which is not the machine 
used to browse the documentation. However, you could leave this note to 
anyone : "If you installed from a distro packege, you probably don't 
want to read this, read your distro's docs instead". Which would be 
kinda like having that specific entry in the FAQ moved to the top, 
blinking bold red.


Anyway, collaborating with the packagers to improve packages and avoid 
troubles in the first place is of course the best, yet time-costly.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman

2012-05-16 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull 
Mark Sapiro writes:

 > 
 > That sounds good,

Be fair, Mark. :-)  When the distro package works, it *is* good.  And
it works most of the time AFAIK.

 > but evidently, judging from the number of Debian/Ubuntu packge
 > users who come to this list with mail delivery issues because they
 > have ended up with some Postfix configuration that combines Mailman
 > aliases and postfix_to_mailman.py in incompatible ways, people
 > don't look at the Debian documentation.

Well, that's hardly surprising.  I've almost never found Debian
package documentation useful.  But that's usually because it's
unneeded and therefore nonexistent.  Still, the result is that I
rarely even look for it, creature of habit (or lack thereof) that I
am.

Is the Debian packager here?

Or maybe we (== me FVO me in "sometime in the summer *if* I'm
reminded") should go talk to them, and suggest improvements to the
package (for example, their debconf procedures and the post-
installation caveats that are displayed).  Maybe improve documents
(including our own -- our web pages should detect Debian/Ubuntu and
Red Hat/Fedora hosted browsers and display big "You probably don't
want to read this, read your distro's docs instead" warnings!)

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman

2012-05-15 Thread David 
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 7:31 PM, Mark Sapiro  wrote:

> Geoff Shang wrote:
> >
> >I've done several Mailman installs under Debian and Ubuntu and have had
> >minimal problems.  The key in my opinion is to look at the installation
> >guide and make sure you actually do everything that's listed there that's
> >appropriate.  It's easy enough to assume that a lot of what you need to do
> >regarding setup will be done for you when you install a package, but this
> >isn't really the case with Mailman (by necessity).
>
>
> 
> That sounds good, but evidently, judging from the number of
> Debian/Ubuntu packge users who come to this list with mail delivery
> issues because they have ended up with some Postfix configuration that
> combines Mailman aliases and postfix_to_mailman.py in incompatible
> ways, people don't look at the Debian documentation. They look at our
> installation manual or some incompatible web HowTo and wind up with a
> mess.
>
> I wish they all would read and comprehend the FAQ at
> .
>
> And, while I'm wishing, sometimes I wish I were less compulsive about
> this and could just refer them to that FAQ and forget about it.
> 
>


I'm one member of the list who is extremely grateful for your compulsion.
In my opinion, your help on this list is an invaluable asset to the Mailman
community. Without your compulsive help, the Mailman user community would
be tremendously disadvantaged compared to its current status.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman

2012-05-15 Thread Mark Sapiro 
Geoff Shang wrote:
>
>I've done several Mailman installs under Debian and Ubuntu and have had 
>minimal problems.  The key in my opinion is to look at the installation 
>guide and make sure you actually do everything that's listed there that's 
>appropriate.  It's easy enough to assume that a lot of what you need to do 
>regarding setup will be done for you when you install a package, but this 
>isn't really the case with Mailman (by necessity).



That sounds good, but evidently, judging from the number of
Debian/Ubuntu packge users who come to this list with mail delivery
issues because they have ended up with some Postfix configuration that
combines Mailman aliases and postfix_to_mailman.py in incompatible
ways, people don't look at the Debian documentation. They look at our
installation manual or some incompatible web HowTo and wind up with a
mess.

I wish they all would read and comprehend the FAQ at
.

And, while I'm wishing, sometimes I wish I were less compulsive about
this and could just refer them to that FAQ and forget about it.



>ONe of the reasons why installing from source is not exactly 
>straight-forward is that Debian has conventions for things like the user 
>accounts used for specific things.  If you're going to compile Mailman 
>from source on a Debian-based system, you'll need to either undermine a 
>lot of other things, or supply the appropriate configure flags so that 
>Mailman uses the accounts that Debian uses.


Which, along with postfix_to_mailman.py, is a large part of why people
should heed the above FAQ.


>There were some other bits and pieces specific to the multiple hosts 
>aspect of it.  IN particular, there was a patch I was applying to add the 
>domain as a suffix so that the same list name could be used across 
>domains.  I'm not sure if that patch is now the virtual hosts branch or if 
>it's something else.


If the patches are those referred to at
,
the branch at  is
based on those but includes several updates and fixes.

If they are from , they
are someone elses work.


>All this was a product of many days of slavery and lots of helpful advice 
>from this list, which you can read at the following threads (don't know 
>why they split):
>
>http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2009-October/067354.html
>http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2009-October/067363.html
>http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2009-October/067364.html


You actually missed one:



The reason the thread is split is you were initially moderated. Your
replies to my posts were Cc'd to me, and my replies to those reached
the list before your replies were approved and reached the list.
Pipermail threading sometimes fails if the referenced message
(In-Reply-To: or References:) is not in the Pipermail archive at the
time the referencing message is archived.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman

2012-05-15 Thread David 
On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 4:36 PM, Geoff Shang  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'd like to make the case for considering the Debian etc Mailman instead
> of rolling your own.
>
> I've done several Mailman installs under Debian and Ubuntu and have had
> minimal problems.


I can't claim a lot of experience, but I did install Mailman on at least 3
Ubuntu servers recently and on the basis of that limited experience, I
agree with you. In Ubuntu 12.04 installing the Mailman deb package was very
straightforward and is working without any problems (after I ran
bin/check_perms and manually fixed anything the script didn't fix).
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman

2012-05-15 Thread Geoff Shang 

Hi,

I'd like to make the case for considering the Debian etc Mailman instead 
of rolling your own.


I've done several Mailman installs under Debian and Ubuntu and have had 
minimal problems.  The key in my opinion is to look at the installation 
guide and make sure you actually do everything that's listed there that's 
appropriate.  It's easy enough to assume that a lot of what you need to do 
regarding setup will be done for you when you install a package, but this 
isn't really the case with Mailman (by necessity).


ONe of the reasons why installing from source is not exactly 
straight-forward is that Debian has conventions for things like the user 
accounts used for specific things.  If you're going to compile Mailman 
from source on a Debian-based system, you'll need to either undermine a 
lot of other things, or supply the appropriate configure flags so that 
Mailman uses the accounts that Debian uses.


I had to do a number of Mailman instals on a Ubuntu box in 2009.  This is 
the command line I came up with:


./configure --with-username=list --with-groupname=list \
--with-mail-gid=list --with-cgi-gid=www-data

These flags were a product of looking at the Debian package sources and 
several rounds with the various bits of the system where it complained 
about user mismatches.


Since I was doing multiple installs for multiple virtual hosts (see other 
thread on this), I also added:


--prefix=/usr/local/mailman/example.com/ --with-mailhost=example.com
--with-urlhost=www.example.com

I also wrote the following in my file of notes at the time (since I was 
going to have to do this multiple times):


You might want to umask 002 before running make.

after make install:

cd $prefix
bin/check_perms

then
chown www-data archives/private
chmod o-x archives/private

(Do stuff specific to your webserver and MTA setup)

Run bin/genailiases from $prefix

Try check-perms again after genaliases

---CUT here ---

There were some other bits and pieces specific to the multiple hosts 
aspect of it.  IN particular, there was a patch I was applying to add the 
domain as a suffix so that the same list name could be used across 
domains.  I'm not sure if that patch is now the virtual hosts branch or if 
it's something else.


All this was a product of many days of slavery and lots of helpful advice 
from this list, which you can read at the following threads (don't know 
why they split):


http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2009-October/067354.html
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2009-October/067363.html
http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2009-October/067364.html

Hope all of this is of some use to someone.

Geoff.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman

2012-05-14 Thread Lindsay Haisley 
On Tue, 2012-05-15 at 11:54 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> But when you do run into issues, whether a need for customization or a
> bug, it help a lot to be using something as close to upstream's
> recommended configuration as possible.  That's why many projects (not
> just Mailman) recommend building from source.
> 
> (Yeah, I know you know this, Lindsay.  It's worth repeating
> occasionally, though.  "This automatically-triggered recording was
> brought to you by the FLUFL's Fluffy Support Brigade and the Mailman
> Devs." :-)

Heh!!  Yeah, the Mailman developers seem to be a very focused and
friendly bunch.  Brad Knowles is a friend of mine here in Austin, as
we're both members of Austin's Unix professional society.

There's also the fact that I've bent Mailman to my will in a couple of
departments, forcing it to deal intelligently with PHP and Namazu.  As
you point out, it's always easiest to start as far upstream as possible
when one does this sort of thing.

I've moved away from Gentoo for my servers.  It's just too much hassle
and takes too long to deal with building from source for _everything_,
so I let Canonical handle the big stuff and use Ubuntu server on my
newest server, and Linux Mint on my favorite desktop.  I'm 70 years old.
I just don't have the bandwidth, or the time, to learn everything I need
to know to keep up with all the dirty details of the ever increasing
complexity of a modern Linux installation.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman

2012-05-14 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull 
Lindsay Haisley writes:

 > It's probably just as easy to bypass the precompiled Ubuntu package and
 > work straight from the Mailman distribution.  If I have issues, which
 > are ususally creative problems with Python, I'd much rather work with
 > the Mailman devs than with Canonical :-)

We do like to hear we're easy to work with!

"The distros" (and that includes even Gentoo and Arch, to some degree)
do have their place, but it's not in the specialized mission-critical
components of the system.  Depending on your application, you may want
to apply that even to the kernel and libc, but most of the time
there's a long list of highly complex and widely used components
(kernel, libc, Apache, ...) that the distros do quite well enough, and
you rarely if ever run into issues (whether software bugs or admin
PEBKAC).

But when you do run into issues, whether a need for customization or a
bug, it help a lot to be using something as close to upstream's
recommended configuration as possible.  That's why many projects (not
just Mailman) recommend building from source.

(Yeah, I know you know this, Lindsay.  It's worth repeating
occasionally, though.  "This automatically-triggered recording was
brought to you by the FLUFL's Fluffy Support Brigade and the Mailman
Devs." :-)
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman

2012-05-11 Thread Lindsay Haisley 
On Fri, 2012-05-11 at 21:26 -0400, David wrote:
> On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Lindsay Haisley
>  wrote:
> On Fri, 2012-05-11 at 12:30 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> > They don't eliminate the Mailman user. They just call it
> 'list' rather
> > than 'mailman'.
> 
> 
> Actually, it's barely the same thing.  It appears that qrunner
> gets run
> as user 'list' out of the mailman init script, but all other
> Mailman
> components are owned by root, group list, albeit all the
> executables
> have group execute enabled.
> 
> run /usr/lib/mailman/bin/check_perms
> 
> the -f option will fix all those permissions. It will remove root as
> owner on all Mailman files. Mailman will still run just find on Ubuntu
> with the proper permissions set by this script. I'm told this isn't
> limited to Ubuntu, but that many other distros need to have the
> check_perms script run after any new install or upgrades.
> 
> You may have to run the script more than once. If you want to fix the
> perms on the symlinks, you'll have to fix those manually with the "-
> h" option on chgrp. When you finish, check_perms will return no
> errors, you'll have all the permissions you want, and Mailman will run
> fine. I just went through all this. See the list archives for a whole
> thread with my questions on this topic. Everything is resolved now.
> I'm on Ubuntu 12.04.
> 
Thanks, David.

It's probably just as easy to bypass the precompiled Ubuntu package and
work straight from the Mailman distribution.  If I have issues, which
are ususally creative problems with Python, I'd much rather work with
the Mailman devs than with Canonical :-)


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman

2012-05-11 Thread David 
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 4:03 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:

> On Fri, 2012-05-11 at 12:30 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> > They don't eliminate the Mailman user. They just call it 'list' rather
> > than 'mailman'.
>
> Actually, it's barely the same thing.  It appears that qrunner gets run
> as user 'list' out of the mailman init script, but all other Mailman
> components are owned by root, group list, albeit all the executables
> have group execute enabled.
>

run /usr/lib/mailman/bin/check_perms

the -f option will fix all those permissions. It will remove root as owner
on all Mailman files. Mailman will still run just find on Ubuntu with the
proper permissions set by this script. I'm told this isn't limited to
Ubuntu, but that many other distros need to have the check_perms script run
after any new install or upgrades.

You may have to run the script more than once. If you want to fix the perms
on the symlinks, you'll have to fix those manually with the "- h" option on
chgrp. When you finish, check_perms will return no errors, you'll have all
the permissions you want, and Mailman will run fine. I just went through
all this. See the list archives for a whole thread with my questions on
this topic. Everything is resolved now. I'm on Ubuntu 12.04.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman

2012-05-11 Thread Mark Sapiro 
Lindsay Haisley wrote:
>
>Actually, it's barely the same thing.  It appears that qrunner gets run
>as user 'list' out of the mailman init script, but all other Mailman
>components are owned by root, group list, albeit all the executables
>have group execute enabled.


So they're group 'list' and SETGID. Other than the name, how is that
different from group 'mailman' and SETGID?

The fact that they're owned by root is irrelevant. None assume any
identity from the owner when run.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman

2012-05-11 Thread Barry S, Finkel 

On 5/11/2012 2:30 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

Lindsay Haisley wrote:


I just installed, and just as promptly un-installed mailman on Ubuntu
server 10.04.4 LTS.  The offered pacakge version of mailman for this
release, which I used, is 2.1.13-1.


The Ubuntu packages are based on Debian.



I have a few questions which perhaps someone could answer, if anyone
knows the thinking behind Canonical's (and the package maintainer's)
motives/reasons for what was done.

The most awkward change, for me, is the elimination altogether of the
mailman user.  Mailman native scripts and utilities apparently get run
as root, which as always brings up a whole kettle of security questions.


They don't eliminate the Mailman user. They just call it 'list' rather
than 'mailman'.



On top of that, I've written a script package to parse and automatically
unsubscribe list subscribers based on AOL's "Email feedback reports" for
all the lists I host, using, among other things, mailman's python
library and the withlist utility.  These scripts depend on the existence
of a non-privileged Mailman user account with a home dir
of /usr/lib/mailman.


I think 'list' satisfies this.



Yes, I could hack the scripts to make things work,
but I'm in the process of a major server move between Linux platforms

>from different distributions and my time is budgeted.

Why was this done?


Ask Debian and see the FAQ at.



It looks as if I'm going to have to install mailman from source on
Ubuntu.  I believe the Gentoo download, installed on my older servers,
hewed much more closely to the methods and design of the Mailman devs,
but I'm wondering what I'm missing here, or if the change was just due
to lazy package design on Canonical's part.


Don't blame Canonical for Debian's decisions.

Personally, I would always install from source on Debian/Ubuntu. Even
though I run Ubuntu on some of my machines, I am not a fan of "The
Debian Way".

When I was running Mailman on an Ubuntu system, I looked at the Debian 
source

changes, and I decided that most were not documented.  I had no idea what
they did.  I decided to take the Ubuntu package and the SourceForge source
and create my own package.  It took me a while to do the initial package,
but after that it was easy.  I think that Mark has previously posted to
this list that many of the Debian patches are not needed.  There is one that
is wrong - it deletes a library that is sometimes needed.  If I needed
assistance on Mailman, I could post to this list and get a quick response.
--Barry Finkel
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman

2012-05-11 Thread Adam McGreggor 
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 12:37:20PM -0700, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>  - Probably the best way to get authoritative answers is to contact the Debian
>Mailman packaging team:
> 
>pkg-mailman-hack...@lists.alioth.debian.org
> 
>I don't know whether anyone from that team is on this list, or
>mailman-developers.

I have been on that spam-infested-thanks-Debian-for-open-for-all list
for some time, but I've still not pulled my finger out and joined the
maintainers' team for Mailman...

I believe at least one of the regular committers may be on one of the
Mailman-*@python.org lists, as well as pkg-mailman-hackers.

-- 
"Bernard: I don't think Sir Humphrey understands economics, 
 Prime Minister; he did read Classics, you know."
"Hacker: What about Sir Frank? He's head of the Treasury!"
"Bernard: Well I'm afraid he's at an even greater disadvantage in 
 understanding economics: he's an economist."
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman

2012-05-11 Thread Lindsay Haisley 
On Fri, 2012-05-11 at 12:30 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> They don't eliminate the Mailman user. They just call it 'list' rather
> than 'mailman'.

Actually, it's barely the same thing.  It appears that qrunner gets run
as user 'list' out of the mailman init script, but all other Mailman
components are owned by root, group list, albeit all the executables
have group execute enabled.

I've twisted Mailman 2 in a number of ways, including integrating the
namazu list search tool with it for my servers.  I'll probably install
it from source, as I've done previously, and run with it that way.  It
may make for more maintenance work later, but the initial installation
will probably be easier, and it's only one of very many pieces on a new
server which need to be hammered into shape.

Thanks.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley   |  "Humor will get you through times of no humor
FMP Computer Services |  better than no humor will get you through
512-259-1190  | times of humor."
http://www.fmp.com|- Butch Hancock

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman

2012-05-11 Thread Barry Warsaw 
On May 11, 2012, at 02:15 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:

>I just installed, and just as promptly un-installed mailman on Ubuntu
>server 10.04.4 LTS.  The offered pacakge version of mailman for this
>release, which I used, is 2.1.13-1.
>
>I have a few questions which perhaps someone could answer, if anyone
>knows the thinking behind Canonical's (and the package maintainer's)
>motives/reasons for what was done.

Unfortunately I can't provide any insight into the rationale, since (perhaps
ironically ;) I don't participate in the maintenance of the Mailman package.
I would just like to point out a few things that might be useful:

 - Canonical, or for that matter Ubuntu, isn't responsible for this change,
   since it comes straight from Debian.  AFAICT, we carry no Ubuntu-specific
   deltas to the Debian package. I.e. it's a straight sync from Debian in
   Precise (12.04 LTS).  AFAICT, Lucid (10.04.4 LTS) carries a couple of
   additional security updates, but this doesn't seem like the kind of change
   that would be made in a security update.

 - Probably the best way to get authoritative answers is to contact the Debian
   Mailman packaging team:

   pkg-mailman-hack...@lists.alioth.debian.org

   I don't know whether anyone from that team is on this list, or
   mailman-developers.

Cheers,
-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman

2012-05-11 Thread Mark Sapiro 
Lindsay Haisley wrote:

>I just installed, and just as promptly un-installed mailman on Ubuntu
>server 10.04.4 LTS.  The offered pacakge version of mailman for this
>release, which I used, is 2.1.13-1.


The Ubuntu packages are based on Debian.


>I have a few questions which perhaps someone could answer, if anyone
>knows the thinking behind Canonical's (and the package maintainer's)
>motives/reasons for what was done.
>
>The most awkward change, for me, is the elimination altogether of the
>mailman user.  Mailman native scripts and utilities apparently get run
>as root, which as always brings up a whole kettle of security questions.


They don't eliminate the Mailman user. They just call it 'list' rather
than 'mailman'.


>On top of that, I've written a script package to parse and automatically
>unsubscribe list subscribers based on AOL's "Email feedback reports" for
>all the lists I host, using, among other things, mailman's python
>library and the withlist utility.  These scripts depend on the existence
>of a non-privileged Mailman user account with a home dir
>of /usr/lib/mailman.


I think 'list' satisfies this.


>Yes, I could hack the scripts to make things work,
>but I'm in the process of a major server move between Linux platforms
>from different distributions and my time is budgeted.
>
>Why was this done?


Ask Debian and see the FAQ at .


>It looks as if I'm going to have to install mailman from source on
>Ubuntu.  I believe the Gentoo download, installed on my older servers,
>hewed much more closely to the methods and design of the Mailman devs,
>but I'm wondering what I'm missing here, or if the change was just due
>to lazy package design on Canonical's part.


Don't blame Canonical for Debian's decisions.

Personally, I would always install from source on Debian/Ubuntu. Even
though I run Ubuntu on some of my machines, I am not a fan of "The
Debian Way".

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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