Re: [MlMt] quoted-printable

[Daniel Torrecillas]

;, "Cproject", "archive:" );
 "d" = ( "setTag:", "Dproject", "archive:" );
 "e" = ( "setTag:", "Eproject", "archive:" );

Fredrik


--

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 10:44:46 +0100
From: "Benny Kjær Nielsen" <mailingl...@freron.com>
To: "MailMate Users" <mailmate@lists.freron.com>
Subject: Re: [MlMt] double sent mail outlook.com
Message-ID: <96e2ae84-93ce-4f02-b940-76161d0ec...@freron.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"

On 5 Feb 2018, at 7:48, Angelo Machils wrote:

Sorry about the late response.

No, it's on the server that I see the second copy of the sent email. 
A

little later it also shows up in MailMate.


Ok, that does sound like Outlook is saving emails sent with SMTP.


I can't find any setting in outlook.com to that effect, and even if
there were such a setting, it would be not of a lot of use. Because
when I have to use the webmail, the sent mail would not be saved.


No, the setting I'm looking for is something like: “Don't save 
copies

in IMAP account when email clients use SMTP.” Most often, SMTP and
IMAP are completely separate things and this wouldn't be an issue at
all. It is the client's responsibility to save sent messages. Some 
email
servers are now “smarter”, but it's badly standardized and not 
quite
clear how an email client should behave. Since Gmail does this then 
one
could argue that it's now the norm, but I don't consider Gmail 
standard

in any way ;-)

(What webmail does is irrelevant since webmail is its own client and 
it

should naturally always save sent messages.)

Technically, I believe the underlying bandwidth optimization problem 
is

better solved by [this RFC](https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4468), but
MailMate doesn't support this extension and I'm actually not sure if 
or

how many SMTP servers support it.


Isn't there a settings in MailMate where I can turn off saving sent
mails per account?


No, and it's partly because I'm unsure how to implement it without
risking losing sent messages. I would prefer a solution which ensures
that MailMate doesn't delete it until it has found and downloaded the
copy saved by the server. This includes verifying that it's an 
identical
copy, for example, Gmail some times rewrites headers and I'll be 
blamed

for that if MailMate doesn't somehow record what it really sent.

In other words, I would prefer a feature like “Detect and delete
duplicates” (for Sent Messages) rather than “Don't save sent
messages”, but in practice the first is just a safer variant of the
latter.

But the answer is still: No, MailMate does not currently have the
feature you are looking for.

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On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 10:40 AM, Benny Kjær Nielsen
<mailingl...@freron.com>
wrote:


On 4 Feb 2018, at 9:43, Angelo Machils wrote:

When I sent an email through my Hotmail account, it turns out that 
on

the

server for every sent mail, there is a second copy. MailMate
doesn’t show
this second copy in the Sent folder, but I just found out that on
the
web-app for outlook.com, every sent mail has a second copy.

Can I change this behaviour somewhere?



If it's because the server saves a copy in the mailbox for sent
messages
then there might be a server setting to prevent this.

Since you cannot see both copies in webmail then I also suspect that
there
is a synchronization issue. Check that the mailbox for sent messages
is
online when you look at it under SOURCES in the mailbox list. (It's
not
online if it's greyed out.)

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Message: 4
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 10:49:03 +0100
From: "Benny Kjær Nielsen" <mailingl...@freron.com>
To: "MailMate Users" <mailmate@lists.freron.com>
Subject: Re: [MlMt] Old email not shown in smart mailboxes
Message-ID: <f50dcedd-4563-4a62-914b-de31ecf20...@freron.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"

On 6 Feb 2018, at 11:47, Wojciech Ogrodowczyk wrote:

I wanted to clarify a bit more the case when sending you the file, 
but

I realised that the messages disappearing from the smart mailboxes is
just a symptom. The real issue is that all of those smart mailboxes
are based on tags and I've just checked that those tags disappear 
from

older messages.

Do you have an idea how I could further debug this issue? Whether it
might be something in MailMate configuration, or rather my email
provider's (Mailbox.org) fault?


Not all servers have great support for IMAP keywords (which are used 
for

the implementation of tags). Worst-case they should work locally, but
they wo

Re: [MlMt] Does MailMate mirror everything back to the server?

[Max Rydahl Andersen]

Max Rydahl Andersen wrote:
Just mentioning the above as the powers of imap are varied but I 
think you'll

find it beats any POP3 setup.


I'm trying to keep an open mind.  Just because I've done things one 
way for 25

years doesn't mean it's best (usually the opposite).

I tried IMAP a couple of years ago, and I just wasn't happy having to 
go onto
the server to get copies of emails I needed to look at again.  
MailMate would
allow me to find it on my hard drive, but then why do I need a copy 
sitting up
on the server?  This is obviously a philosophical question about 
approach to

email.


backup ?

for me I find it comforting I can drop my laptop into a metalcruncher 
and still

get to all my email.

Also used it a few times being able to use my phone or any webbrowser to 
check email

without having to have a fully loaded and configured laptop.

The need to access from more than one machine is a possibility in the 
future.
Maybe I could try to keep only emails from the last month or year on 
the
server and within MailMate.  Older stuff that I still want I could 
offload to
my main computer.  Elsewhere on this list, people have discussed 
archiving
emails.  DevonThink, EagleFiler, and Foxtrot were mentioned.  I could 
look

into some sort of approach using one of those.


I still haven't gotten anywhere near limits so i just let gmail contain 
it all ;)


/max
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Re: [MlMt] Does MailMate mirror everything back to the server?

[Ron Britton]

Max Rydahl Andersen wrote:
> Just mentioning the above as the powers of imap are varied but I think you'll
> find it beats any POP3 setup.

I'm trying to keep an open mind.  Just because I've done things one way for 25
years doesn't mean it's best (usually the opposite).

I tried IMAP a couple of years ago, and I just wasn't happy having to go onto
the server to get copies of emails I needed to look at again.  MailMate would
allow me to find it on my hard drive, but then why do I need a copy sitting up
on the server?  This is obviously a philosophical question about approach to
email.

The need to access from more than one machine is a possibility in the future. 
Maybe I could try to keep only emails from the last month or year on the
server and within MailMate.  Older stuff that I still want I could offload to
my main computer.  Elsewhere on this list, people have discussed archiving
emails.  DevonThink, EagleFiler, and Foxtrot were mentioned.  I could look
into some sort of approach using one of those.

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Re: [MlMt] Does MailMate mirror everything back to the server?

[Steven M. Bellovin]

On 20 Feb 2018, at 1:13, Ron Britton wrote:


IMAP is better if you have more than one device.


I know that's the standard use case, but it doesn't apply to me.  The 
only
reason I'm considering IMAP, is because MailMate has some features I 
want.


I have many hundreds of email addresses.  It's how I control spam.  It 
looks
like MailMate won't choke on that.  MM is also the only true 
power-user's mail
client that I've found.  It has a lot of flexibility and 
customizability.
That's all appealing, but it seems like the way I use email is more 
compatible

with the POP3 philosophy.


Yup.



you can always run dovecot or some such on your laptop; you'll
then be speaking IMAP locally.


I looked into that.  It seems complicated and prone to failure.  I'm 
technical
enough.  I know I could get it running, but that's a hassle.  
Something could
go wrong at an inopportune time.  I'd prefer to leave dovecot and mail 
servers

to the experts.


It's less of an issue than you might think. You're not trying to receive
email from the outside, which takes care of most of the security and 
spam

issues. If the local server crashes, it all show up as "disconnected" to
MailMate, but you'll still be able to look at the the cached copies of
messages in MailMate, move new ones there, etc.; when the server comes 
back

up, everything will resynchronize. Other than the initial headache of
the setup, the real problem is disk space: you'll have two copies of 
every
such message, one in dovecot and one in MailMate. The rest should just 
work.


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Re: [MlMt] Does MailMate mirror everything back to the server?

[Robert Goldman]

On 20 Feb 2018, at 0:13, Ron Britton wrote:


IMAP is better if you have more than one device.


I know that's the standard use case, but it doesn't apply to me.  The 
only
reason I'm considering IMAP, is because MailMate has some features I 
want.


I have many hundreds of email addresses.  It's how I control spam.  It 
looks
like MailMate won't choke on that.  MM is also the only true 
power-user's mail
client that I've found.  It has a lot of flexibility and 
customizability.
That's all appealing, but it seems like the way I use email is more 
compatible

with the POP3 philosophy.


you can always run dovecot or some such on your laptop; you'll
then be speaking IMAP locally.


I looked into that.  It seems complicated and prone to failure.  I'm 
technical
enough.  I know I could get it running, but that's a hassle.  
Something could
go wrong at an inopportune time.  I'd prefer to leave dovecot and mail 
servers

to the experts.


isync is an imap mirror local client that doesn't involve having to set 
up dovecot locally.  If you look for instructions for users of the 
"mutt" email client, you will find lots about it.



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Re: [MlMt] Force compose in tab

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 20 Feb 2018, at 12:48, Alain Israel wrote:

I have this setting ON (in the Finder preferences; in the System 
preferences, there does not seem to be a Prefer tabs setting in the 
Dock pane), but the new messages still open in a separate window.


It's in the Dock pane of the System Preferences. Here's an image and 
some of the neighboring settings:


![](cid:71255605-7F54-4364-ACF7-F08666EF22B2@freron.com "Screen Shot 
2018-02-20 at 13.44.49.png")


I hope that helps.

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Re: [MlMt] Force compose in tab

[Alain Israel]

On 16 Feb 2018, at 9:38, Ian Petersen wrote:

Is it possible to force Mailmate compose messages in tabs instead of 
a separate window ?


Hmm, my mailmate always opens the compose window in a tab - which I 
find rather annoying actually. I’ve discovered that it opens the 
compose window in a tab when the application is full screen, but it 
opens in a separate window if the app is not full screen.


Note the “Prefer tabs...” setting in the Dock pane of the System 
Preferences.


--
Benny


I have this setting ON (in the Finder preferences; in the System 
preferences, there does not seem to be a Prefer tabs setting in the Dock 
pane), but the new messages still open in a separate window.


Alain


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Re: [MlMt] Involuntary database rebuilding = bug

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 20 Feb 2018, at 7:13, Roger Bohn wrote:

HOWEVER, when I select “Do nothing,” I get stuck in an infinite 
loop. When MM restarts, I get the same choices. There is NO WAY TO 
AVOID REBUILDING. This is clearly a bug. Why give a choice if it 
cannot be used?


The option is to “do nothing after relaunching MailMate”. There is 
no option to just keep on running MailMate. When MailMate is in an 
inconsistent state then that would be very risky. It could result, e.g., 
in the loss of emails. At the very least, it would likely quickly result 
in a crash.


I appreciate MM trying to maintain the integrity of my data, but this 
is a case where I am willing to lose a few messages in order to avoid 
the risk of a rebuilding.


Unfortunately there is no way for MailMate to know if the problem 
involves a few messages or all of your messages.



What should I do if this happens again?


I'm afraid you'll have to do the rebuild.

But please note what the error message is and what happened before 
MailMate got into this state. Anything which might be relevant. I'm very 
rarely contacted when users do a rebuild and I know almost nothing about 
what can trigger it. I only know that restoring MailMate from a backup 
can result in a corrupted database, because MailMate cannot control in 
what order the files were copied to the backup.


“Regular” crashes should, at least in theory, not result in a 
corrupted database, because in that case MailMate knows how to roll back 
to the most recent consistent state on disk.


(I haven't had a database corruption event myself for quite a few 
years.)


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Re: [MlMt] Force compose in tab

[Compass Luca Cignacco]

Thank you! I didn’t notice!

On 20 Feb 2018, at 11:49, Benny Kjær Nielsen wrote:


On 16 Feb 2018, at 9:38, Ian Petersen wrote:

Is it possible to force Mailmate compose messages in tabs instead of 
a separate window ?


Hmm, my mailmate always opens the compose window in a tab - which I 
find rather annoying actually. I’ve discovered that it opens the 
compose window in a tab when the application is full screen, but it 
opens in a separate window if the app is not full screen.


Note the “Prefer tabs...” setting in the Dock pane of the System 
Preferences.


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Re: [MlMt] Force compose in tab

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 16 Feb 2018, at 9:38, Ian Petersen wrote:

Is it possible to force Mailmate compose messages in tabs instead of 
a separate window ?


Hmm, my mailmate always opens the compose window in a tab - which I 
find rather annoying actually. I’ve discovered that it opens the 
compose window in a tab when the application is full screen, but it 
opens in a separate window if the app is not full screen.


Note the “Prefer tabs...” setting in the Dock pane of the System 
Preferences.


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Re: [MlMt] Preserving tags

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 13 Feb 2018, at 0:16, Rick Holzgrafe wrote:

This means that we need a way to preserve our archived mail. That’s 
easy enough—EagleFiler will do it, or we could just make a Finder 
copy of our cache folders. But these mechanisms do not preserve the 
tags (even though both EagleFiler and the Finder do support tagging), 
so we will lose all of our carefully-built-up organization.


Is there any way to preserve not just the mail, but also the tags that 
we have applied in Mailmate? I have explored the Application Support > 
Mailmate folder, but as far as I can tell the tag info is not stored 
there, except for a handy list of all the tag names.


It's unfortunately not easily accessed. Ideally, MailMate would map its 
IMAP-based tags to file system tags, but I simply haven't had the time 
to implement that. This would also preserve the tags if simply 
exporting/dragging emails to a disk folder.


As far as I know, we won’t be able to simply transfer our mail from 
our own server to a hosted server.


Moving emails between IMAP servers preserves tags as long as the 
destination server supports IMAP keywords.


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Re: [MlMt] Inconsistent message thread display

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 10 Feb 2018, at 20:02, Topher Buck wrote:


| From | To | Subject | Date   | Msg ID |
|--||-|||
| X| Y  | foo bar | 2018-02-06 | 5597   |
| Y| X  | Re: foo bar | 2018-02-07 | 6414   |
| X| Y  | Re: foo bar | 2018-02-08 | 6137   |
| X| Y  | Re: foo bar | 2018-02-09 | 6321   |

[...]

I don’t understand why View > “Organize by Thread” does not 
group all four messages together in the same way that clicking the 
“Thread” toolbar button does. Can anyone explain that behavior? As 
you can see, I have included the message IDs here, and I note that 
they do not increase monotonically in chronological order (as I would 
have predicted). That suggests that message ID could play some role 
and that MM assigns message IDs in some fashion that isn’t obvious 
to me.


The “Msg ID” is just an internal value which MailMate uses as an 
index. Every new message seen by MailMate gets a “Msg ID” in 
increasing order starting from 1.


Threading is based on the `Message-ID` header and the `In-Reply-To`. 
These are the headers you should be looking for if trying to understand 
how MailMate has threaded the emails (and to determine if it's 
incorrect).


It also seems like Benny’s statement, “[MailMate uses very strict 
threading. It only shows two messages as related if they are 
parent-child.](https://www.mail-archive.com/mailmate@lists.freron.com/msg01927.html)” 
may apply here, though neither my message ID hypothesis nor “very 
strict threading” explain the discrepancy in the two options for 
viewing message threads.


If it's not a bug then “strict threading” should be the explanation.

On a related note, I would like to register another vote in favor of 
Scott’s [Feature request - highlighting related messages in a 
thread](https://www.mail-archive.com/mailmate@lists.freron.com/msg02687.html).


Your vote is noted :)

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Re: [MlMt] quoted-printable

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 7 Feb 2018, at 18:59, Daniel Torrecillas wrote:


Sorry, I meant to preface my question with this:

I don't mean to make noise and I absolutely don't want to propose a 
change to the default behavior. **I believe in the designed way and 
it's adherence to the relevant standards.**


Thanks for that :)

I only looked into this issue when someone that reads my email 
*exclusively* on their iPhone with Mail.app complained about the 
seemingly arbitrary line breaks.


I just tried reviewing some of the emails on this mailing list on my 
iPhone and I don't see any arbitrary line breaks. Are you absolutely 
sure about this?


To please them, I would consider composing `quoted-printable` or 
`base64` email only to them, if given the option in MailMate.


Ok, I'll consider a hidden preference to disable format-flowed, but I'd 
like you to first investigate the problem a bit more. Maybe something 
else triggers the arbitrary line breaks, for example, maybe your 
correspondent has an IMAP service which some times rewrites emails. 
Perhaps he could do something similar to “Message > Forward as 
Attachment”  in order for you to make sure the email hasn't changed in 
transmission.


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Re: [MlMt] option to automatically jump to first unread message of thread

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 6 Feb 2018, at 17:25, Eric Sharakan wrote:

Hi, I often deal with long-running email threads at work.  I have 
Organize by Thread enabled for my work Inbox, and as I'm going through 
my unread messages in the morning, when I get to an old thread with 
new correspondence, I'm taken to the beginning of the thread rather 
than the first unread message.  Is there a preference to change that 
behavior?


I already have a smart mailbox that includes only unread messages, but 
I don't like using it, as I prefer to have the option to review 
previously read messages in case I need the additional context.  I 
also know there's a hotkey I can use to jump to the next unread 
message, but was just wondering if perhaps there was a preference to 
make that be the default behavior.


I'm not sure how that would work if you're not asking for “next 
unread”. How are you selecting this thread?


What you really need is probably a different threading mode (which has 
been on my todo forever) which allows you to display the newest message 
at the top of the thread.


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Re: [MlMt] How to edit recipients

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 6 Feb 2018, at 14:19, Randall Gellens wrote:

When composing a new message, MailMate shows each recipient as an 
entity.  Is it possible to edit a recipient?


Double-click or hit space when it's selected brings you into edit mode.

For example, if there is a typo in one?  Similarly, what is the best 
way of selecting a recipient to delete or move to another field?


Use the keyboard or the mouse to select 1 or more recipients and then 
use copy/paste or drag'n'drop.


On a more esoteric note, it would be nice if MM could normalize 
recipients names that are in annoying Outlook format, e.g., change

“Bozo, Fred” 
To
Fred Bozo 


MailMate cannot do this automatically. It's extremely hard (impossible?) 
to correctly identify the various parts of a “name”. Also, you have 
to assume that if your correspondent uses this format then it's probably 
what they prefer to see when they get a reply.


MailMate could display the names differently (without altering them when 
replying/forwarding), but I really mean it when I write that it's 
extremely hard to do this reliably :) As as simple example, someone 
might use this: "PhD Nielsen, Benny" and it would become "Benny PhD 
Nielsen".


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Re: [MlMt] Old email not shown in smart mailboxes

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 6 Feb 2018, at 11:47, Wojciech Ogrodowczyk wrote:

I wanted to clarify a bit more the case when sending you the file, but 
I realised that the messages disappearing from the smart mailboxes is 
just a symptom. The real issue is that all of those smart mailboxes 
are based on tags and I've just checked that those tags disappear from 
older messages.


Do you have an idea how I could further debug this issue? Whether it 
might be something in MailMate configuration, or rather my email 
provider's (Mailbox.org) fault?


Not all servers have great support for IMAP keywords (which are used for 
the implementation of tags). Worst-case they should work locally, but 
they won't synchronize to the server.


To debug this then it's best if you can come up with a series of steps 
to reproduce one or more problems. Then do the following:


* Open the Activity Viewer (⌥⌘0).
* Do the steps needed to reproduce an issue.
* Use “Help ▸ Send Server Logs” -- and tell me what you were 
trying to do.


Then I can probably see if MailMate does something unexpected.

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Re: [MlMt] double sent mail outlook.com

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 5 Feb 2018, at 7:48, Angelo Machils wrote:

Sorry about the late response.

No, it's on the server that I see the second copy of the sent email. A 
little later it also shows up in MailMate.


Ok, that does sound like Outlook is saving emails sent with SMTP.

I can't find any setting in outlook.com to that effect, and even if 
there were such a setting, it would be not of a lot of use. Because 
when I have to use the webmail, the sent mail would not be saved.


No, the setting I'm looking for is something like: “Don't save copies 
in IMAP account when email clients use SMTP.” Most often, SMTP and 
IMAP are completely separate things and this wouldn't be an issue at 
all. It is the client's responsibility to save sent messages. Some email 
servers are now “smarter”, but it's badly standardized and not quite 
clear how an email client should behave. Since Gmail does this then one 
could argue that it's now the norm, but I don't consider Gmail standard 
in any way ;-)


(What webmail does is irrelevant since webmail is its own client and it 
should naturally always save sent messages.)


Technically, I believe the underlying bandwidth optimization problem is 
better solved by [this RFC](https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4468), but 
MailMate doesn't support this extension and I'm actually not sure if or 
how many SMTP servers support it.


Isn't there a settings in MailMate where I can turn off saving sent 
mails per account?


No, and it's partly because I'm unsure how to implement it without 
risking losing sent messages. I would prefer a solution which ensures 
that MailMate doesn't delete it until it has found and downloaded the 
copy saved by the server. This includes verifying that it's an identical 
copy, for example, Gmail some times rewrites headers and I'll be blamed 
for that if MailMate doesn't somehow record what it really sent.


In other words, I would prefer a feature like “Detect and delete 
duplicates” (for Sent Messages) rather than “Don't save sent 
messages”, but in practice the first is just a safer variant of the 
latter.


But the answer is still: No, MailMate does not currently have the 
feature you are looking for.


--
Benny
https://freron.com/become_a_mailmate_patron/

On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 10:40 AM, Benny Kjær Nielsen 


wrote:


On 4 Feb 2018, at 9:43, Angelo Machils wrote:

When I sent an email through my Hotmail account, it turns out that on 
the
server for every sent mail, there is a second copy. MailMate 
doesn’t show
this second copy in the Sent folder, but I just found out that on 
the

web-app for outlook.com, every sent mail has a second copy.

Can I change this behaviour somewhere?



If it's because the server saves a copy in the mailbox for sent 
messages

then there might be a server setting to prevent this.

Since you cannot see both copies in webmail then I also suspect that 
there
is a synchronization issue. Check that the mailbox for sent messages 
is
online when you look at it under SOURCES in the mailbox list. (It's 
not

online if it's greyed out.)
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Re: [MlMt] newbie

[Fredrik Jonsson]

Brad & Michele Worthington 2018-02-20 3:15 wrote:

The messages don’t arrive with any specific subject lines or from 
address so setting up smart boxes doesn’t seem feasible. I want to 
read them, deal with them and move them to say 2018 a, or March b 
folder for example.


I would suggest:

* Set up tags for each project.
* Set up a smart folder for each project/tag.
* Set up custom keybindings for each project/tag that tag the mail and 
archive it.


This way everything arrives in to your inbox. You read the mail and then 
press the key(s) you mapped for that project/tag.


This will tag the mail and archive it, removing it from the inbox. When 
you are done the inbox is empty and all the mail can be viewed it the 
correct project (smart) folder.


If you don't have to many projects you could bind the actions to a 
single key of your choice, like this:


"a" = ( "setTag:", "Aproject", "archive:" );
"b" = ( "setTag:", "Bproject", "archive:" );
"c" = ( "setTag:", "Cproject", "archive:" );
"d" = ( "setTag:", "Dproject", "archive:" );
"e" = ( "setTag:", "Eproject", "archive:" );

Fredrik
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Re: [MlMt] Does MailMate mirror everything back to the server?

[Fredrik Jonsson]

Ron Britton 2018-02-20 4:42 wrote:


If I were to use MailMate, where would my emails reside?


On the server with a local cache in MailMate on your computer.

The local cache will stay in sync with the server. If you delete mail on 
the server MailMate will delete it locally as well.



What if I want to keep the server empty?


Then IMAP and MailMate is not for you.

But I would reconsider that if I was you. Providers like Runbox (Norway) 
and Fastmail (Australia) have gotten good grades here on this list.


* 
* 

If I was not running my own server I would most likely go with Runbox 
since I'm in Sweden.


Fredrik
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