Re: [mailop] Bell Sympatico contact
> On Sep 26, 2019, at 12:13 AM, Matt Vernhout wrote: > > I sent a note to my contact at Bell about this. They might reach out for more > info if they need it. > > ~ > Matt Hi Matt, Thanks! I’ll pass along the DNS name of the MTA as well as my log data (date, time, etc.). - J ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Bell Sympatico contact
I sent a note to my contact at Bell about this. They might reach out for more info if they need it. ~ Matt > On Sep 25, 2019, at 18:54, J Doe via mailop wrote: > > >> On Sep 25, 2019, at 2:24 PM, J Doe via mailop wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> Is there a representative from Bell / Sympatico (Canada), on this list ? >> >> Thanks, >> >> - J > > To add some context: > > Is there a representative on this list from Bell / Sympatico that can help me > reach the postmaster(s) for @sympatico.ca e-mail ? I am seeing evidence of > an Bell / Sympatico MTA that is relaying without STARTTLS. > > Thanks, > > - J > ___ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org > https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Bell Sympatico contact
> On Sep 25, 2019, at 2:24 PM, J Doe via mailop wrote: > > Hi, > > Is there a representative from Bell / Sympatico (Canada), on this list ? > > Thanks, > > - J To add some context: Is there a representative on this list from Bell / Sympatico that can help me reach the postmaster(s) for @sympatico.ca e-mail ? I am seeing evidence of an Bell / Sympatico MTA that is relaying without STARTTLS. Thanks, - J ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Gmail - Multiple destination domains per transaction is unsupported
On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 1:23 PM Bill Cole via mailop wrote: > On 25 Sep 2019, at 5:18, Simon Lyall via mailop wrote: > > > Just had a bunch of people at a domain get unsubscribed from this > > list. > > Something is very wrong there... > > 4xx failures, even persistent ones that ultimately fail the message for > queue timeout, should not cause an instant unsub from one message > failure. Are your bounce handling settings extra-strict? > Mailman's bounce handling behavior has always been kind of overly strict, that's why it had so much trouble with DMARC rejections, for instance. And you do want your bounce handling to remove users who "always" fail with a 4xx, though when/how you do that is probably more art than science. Ditto for various 5xx errors, ie content based failures may be specific to a single message, but may also apply to every message from the list. > Appears to be some weird Google rule (which probably made sense with > > they were not the MX for 30% of all active domains) > > > > Any chance of them fixing it > > It's not broken. It's functionally identical to sites that enforce a > one-RCPT-per-DATA rule. > > The right behavior when a MX gives a 4xx response to RCPT is for the > sending MTA to continue with any remaining recipients, remove the > successful ones from the envelope, and requeue the message with the > 4xx-ed recipients later. Repeat as necessary to clear the envelope or > until you hit a maximum queue lifetime. > At one point, we only used multiple recipients on the first attempt, splitting up all of the retries into individual tasks as a work around for various things like this. YMMV. Brandon ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Gmail - Multiple destination domains per transaction is unsupported
We also heavily debated supporting PRDR, even though it never really went anywhere, as a way to handle that case, but even then you end up making things even more complicated by having to evaluate against multiple domain rules, probably in parallel, which would have meant rearchitecting the whole shebang for something most servers didn't even support. Brandon On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 11:28 AM Brandon Long wrote: > We've had that rule for probably 10y or so at this point, as to why, blame > SMTP for rcpt and data being separate. GSuite domains can define rules on > what they will/won't accept, and in order to deny such messages in the smtp > transaction and not create backscatter by bouncing them later, we have to > restrict the transaction to users in the same domain. > > And the setting isn't in mailman, it's in your MTA, most of them have a > setting to split by domain and not mx. Searching turned up instructions > for sendmail and exim, but I failed to find the postfix one, I know you can > set postfix to have max recipients of 1, but that seems like overkill. You > can also tune how quickly you retry on partial failure on some servers, > there's no reason to wait as long (or maybe at all) when some succeed and > others get a 4xx error (though, honestly it depends on which 4xx error, but > even if the others are all longer term problems, that'll just be one quick > retry to figure that out) > > Brandon > > > Brandon > > On Wed, Sep 25, 2019, 2:22 AM Simon Lyall via mailop > wrote: > >> >> Just had a bunch of people at a domain get unsubscribed from this list. >> Appears to be some weird Google rule (which probably made sense with they >> were not the MX for 30% of all active domains) >> >> Any chance of them fixing it (or failing that a quick work-around for >> mailman)? . It looks like people have been complaining about it for a few >> years though. >> >> us...@example.com >>SMTP error from remote mail server after RCPT TO:: >>host alt3.aspmx.l.google.com [108.177.97.26]: >>451-4.3.0 Multiple destination domains per transaction is unsupported. >> Please >>451 4.3.0 try again. w4si7917585pjr.54 - gsmtp: >>retry timeout exceeded >> us...@example.com >>SMTP error from remote mail server after RCPT TO:: >>host alt3.aspmx.l.google.com [108.177.97.26]: >>451-4.3.0 Multiple destination domains per transaction is unsupported. >> Please >>451 4.3.0 try again. w4si7917585pjr.54 - gsmtp: >>retry timeout exceeded >> >> >> -- >> Simon Lyall | Very Busy | Web: http://www.simonlyall.com/ >> "To stay awake all night adds a day to your life" - Stilgar >> >> >> >> ___ >> mailop mailing list >> mailop@mailop.org >> https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop >> > ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Gmail - Multiple destination domains per transaction is unsupported
On 25 Sep 2019, at 5:18, Simon Lyall via mailop wrote: Just had a bunch of people at a domain get unsubscribed from this list. Something is very wrong there... 4xx failures, even persistent ones that ultimately fail the message for queue timeout, should not cause an instant unsub from one message failure. Are your bounce handling settings extra-strict? Appears to be some weird Google rule (which probably made sense with they were not the MX for 30% of all active domains) Any chance of them fixing it It's not broken. It's functionally identical to sites that enforce a one-RCPT-per-DATA rule. The right behavior when a MX gives a 4xx response to RCPT is for the sending MTA to continue with any remaining recipients, remove the successful ones from the envelope, and requeue the message with the 4xx-ed recipients later. Repeat as necessary to clear the envelope or until you hit a maximum queue lifetime. (or failing that a quick work-around for mailman)? Enable VERP? It's not actually Mailman at fault. Mailman hands mail to a friendly MTA for working out delivery details. Most MTAs split RCPTs by domain, but Exim is always a fun exception to "most MTAs." Enabling VERP forces each copy of a message to be sent with a single recipient, because the envelope sender is unique per-recipient. No MTA shenanigans can undo that. -- Bill Cole b...@scconsult.com or billc...@apache.org (AKA @grumpybozo and many *@billmail.scconsult.com addresses) ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Gmail - Multiple destination domains per transaction is unsupported {dkim-fail}
> I don't quite get this. Your outbound MTA is grouping separate domains > together into one queue based on MX? There are various ways to do it, but the basic idea is to reuse connections and even transactions based on different domains translating to a common set of MXes, for some defintion of "common". Variations include doing it for all messages, for specific MX lists, for domains who MX lists contain a specific subset MX list, by MX IP, etc. Some people swear by these mechanisms. Others swear at them. > Or is it trying to relay some other mail through Google when at least > one recipient is hosted on a Google MX? That would be very broken, and AFAIK nobody does that. Ned ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Gmail - Multiple destination domains per transaction is unsupported
On 2019-09-25 at 21:18 +1200, Simon Lyall via mailop wrote: > Just had a bunch of people at a domain get unsubscribed from this list. > Appears to be some weird Google rule (which probably made sense with they > were not the MX for 30% of all active domains) > > Any chance of them fixing it (or failing that a quick work-around for > mailman)? . It looks like people have been complaining about it for a few > years though. Looks like you're on Exim. Google doing this for Google Apps for your Domain, so that different domains can have different spam policies, is why I run with "no_multi_domain" on my SMTP Transport. We might want to make that the default in future. Informed feedback welcome. -Phil ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Gmail - Multiple destination domains per transaction is unsupported
On 25 Sep 2019, at 2:18, Simon Lyall via mailop wrote: Just had a bunch of people at a domain get unsubscribed from this list. Appears to be some weird Google rule (which probably made sense with they were not the MX for 30% of all active domains) I've seen similar behavior for large ISPs, where email to specific recipients reside on different clusters. They will take the first RFC2821.TO and 451 subsequent receivers on different clusters. The reason for this is related with different per-user filtering / delivery processing that is separate from the SMTP transaction. Observe this and note whether the message is eventually delivered to all recipients. Likely it will – one recipient per queue run. If this is the case and you want quicker delivery, you'll have to configure your MTA to use a separate SMTP session per recipient. Any chance of them fixing it (or failing that a quick work-around for mailman)? . It looks like people have been complaining about it for a few years though. This is an implementation compromise that is very unlikely to go away. Of course I don't speak for Google :-) There's really not much more they can do to improve on this given all their constraints. Best regards -lem ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Gmail - Multiple destination domains per transaction is unsupported
We've had that rule for probably 10y or so at this point, as to why, blame SMTP for rcpt and data being separate. GSuite domains can define rules on what they will/won't accept, and in order to deny such messages in the smtp transaction and not create backscatter by bouncing them later, we have to restrict the transaction to users in the same domain. And the setting isn't in mailman, it's in your MTA, most of them have a setting to split by domain and not mx. Searching turned up instructions for sendmail and exim, but I failed to find the postfix one, I know you can set postfix to have max recipients of 1, but that seems like overkill. You can also tune how quickly you retry on partial failure on some servers, there's no reason to wait as long (or maybe at all) when some succeed and others get a 4xx error (though, honestly it depends on which 4xx error, but even if the others are all longer term problems, that'll just be one quick retry to figure that out) Brandon Brandon On Wed, Sep 25, 2019, 2:22 AM Simon Lyall via mailop wrote: > > Just had a bunch of people at a domain get unsubscribed from this list. > Appears to be some weird Google rule (which probably made sense with they > were not the MX for 30% of all active domains) > > Any chance of them fixing it (or failing that a quick work-around for > mailman)? . It looks like people have been complaining about it for a few > years though. > > us...@example.com >SMTP error from remote mail server after RCPT TO:: >host alt3.aspmx.l.google.com [108.177.97.26]: >451-4.3.0 Multiple destination domains per transaction is unsupported. > Please >451 4.3.0 try again. w4si7917585pjr.54 - gsmtp: >retry timeout exceeded > us...@example.com >SMTP error from remote mail server after RCPT TO:: >host alt3.aspmx.l.google.com [108.177.97.26]: >451-4.3.0 Multiple destination domains per transaction is unsupported. > Please >451 4.3.0 try again. w4si7917585pjr.54 - gsmtp: >retry timeout exceeded > > > -- > Simon Lyall | Very Busy | Web: http://www.simonlyall.com/ > "To stay awake all night adds a day to your life" - Stilgar > > > > ___ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org > https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop > ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
[mailop] Bell Sympatico contact
Hi, Is there a representative from Bell / Sympatico (Canada), on this list ? Thanks, - J ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Gmail - Multiple destination domains per transaction is unsupported
I don't quite get this. Your outbound MTA is grouping separate domains together into one queue based on MX? Or is it trying to relay some other mail through Google when at least one recipient is hosted on a Google MX? Cheers, Al Iverson On Wed, Sep 25, 2019 at 4:27 AM Simon Lyall via mailop wrote: > > > Just had a bunch of people at a domain get unsubscribed from this list. > Appears to be some weird Google rule (which probably made sense with they > were not the MX for 30% of all active domains) > > Any chance of them fixing it (or failing that a quick work-around for > mailman)? . It looks like people have been complaining about it for a few > years though. > > us...@example.com >SMTP error from remote mail server after RCPT TO:: >host alt3.aspmx.l.google.com [108.177.97.26]: >451-4.3.0 Multiple destination domains per transaction is unsupported. > Please >451 4.3.0 try again. w4si7917585pjr.54 - gsmtp: >retry timeout exceeded > us...@example.com >SMTP error from remote mail server after RCPT TO:: >host alt3.aspmx.l.google.com [108.177.97.26]: >451-4.3.0 Multiple destination domains per transaction is unsupported. > Please >451 4.3.0 try again. w4si7917585pjr.54 - gsmtp: >retry timeout exceeded > > > -- > Simon Lyall | Very Busy | Web: http://www.simonlyall.com/ > "To stay awake all night adds a day to your life" - Stilgar > > > > ___ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org > https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop -- al iverson // wombatmail // chicago http://www.aliverson.com http://www.spamresource.com ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
[mailop] Microsoft Sender Support Request form is down
This form seems to be erroring out: https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkID=614866 Multiple folks seeing it here. Others, are you seeing it too? Microsoft, heads up. Getting this error upon submission: We're sorry, but something went wrong on our end. Please try again later Cheers, Al Iverson -- al iverson // wombatmail // chicago http://www.aliverson.com http://www.spamresource.com ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
[mailop] Gmail - Multiple destination domains per transaction is unsupported
Just had a bunch of people at a domain get unsubscribed from this list. Appears to be some weird Google rule (which probably made sense with they were not the MX for 30% of all active domains) Any chance of them fixing it (or failing that a quick work-around for mailman)? . It looks like people have been complaining about it for a few years though. us...@example.com SMTP error from remote mail server after RCPT TO:: host alt3.aspmx.l.google.com [108.177.97.26]: 451-4.3.0 Multiple destination domains per transaction is unsupported. Please 451 4.3.0 try again. w4si7917585pjr.54 - gsmtp: retry timeout exceeded us...@example.com SMTP error from remote mail server after RCPT TO:: host alt3.aspmx.l.google.com [108.177.97.26]: 451-4.3.0 Multiple destination domains per transaction is unsupported. Please 451 4.3.0 try again. w4si7917585pjr.54 - gsmtp: retry timeout exceeded -- Simon Lyall | Very Busy | Web: http://www.simonlyall.com/ "To stay awake all night adds a day to your life" - Stilgar ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
