Re: [mailop] Best mailbox provider for personal domain?

[Chris Woods via mailop]

On Sat, 9 Apr 2022, 21:38 Mark E. Jeftovic via mailop, 
wrote:

> Hi Tara,
>
> We bundle 3 and 5 IMAP boxes with standard and pro dns packages (domain
> reg + DNS + email) for $35/year and $55/year
>
> And yes, we support + addressing.
>
> We've also implemented SRS on your email forwarders.
>
> - mark
> On 2022-04-09 12:26 PM, Tara Natanson via mailop wrote:
>
> Thank you all for your responses.   I am happy to pay some, but
> switching to google workspace with what I need would be 36$/month so
> looking for a cheaper option than that.  Yes Google says there is a no-cost
> option available but I did look into it and it won't work.
>
> Biggest problem I'm having is that no one states in their advertising or
> FAQs if they support "+" addressing.
>
> Is anyone using the following services and can confirm if they support
> "+" addressing or not?
> Dreamhost
>  ZOHO
> FASTMAIL -
> iCloud-
>
> Tara
>
> On Sat, Apr 9, 2022 at 9:50 AM Byron Lunz  wrote:
>
>> Announcements about this from Google say that a "no cost option" will
>> soon be announced, so it probably makes sense to wait a bit longer to see
>> what that is. It *might* be a recommendation to move your domain to Google
>> Domains, where you can get up to 100 email addresses forwarded to your
>> free Gmail address. 
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 8, 2022 at 6:43 AM Tara Natanson via mailop <
>> mailop@mailop.org> wrote:
>>
>>> A while back there was a thread about the best place to host small biz
>>> domain email but I'm looking for something even smaller.
>>>
>>> I've got my personal domain hosted on gmail.  It's been there for more
>>> than 10 years and was grandfathered into their free hosting tier.  In June
>>> GMAIL is doing away with this plan and going to charge 5$/address per
>>> domain per month.  I've got dozens of addresses setup so this really isn't
>>> a good/affordable option anymore.
>>>
>>> Where would you recommend hosting your domain so that you can pop/imap,
>>> use "+" addressing, isn't spammer friendly, and basically works similar to
>>> gmail? I no longer have a website setup, so mail is the only thing I care
>>> about. I'm fine with a solution that has me setting up a new gmail account
>>> and just popping the mail to there, but what are folks using these days?
>>> (assuming I have no desire to run my own server)
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance for any recommendations!
>>>
>>> Tara Natanson
>>>
>>
Hello Tara,

I've used Dreamhost for 15 years for family and a few friends' personal
email and web sites. DH accounts support inbound plus addressing - just
tested sending from gmail to one of my accounts.

Dreamhost now do ingress and egress mail filtering via Mailchannels MXes
(in my experience it occasionally catches a handful of false positives,
worth checking the spam folder periodically but it's made a decent positive
improvement to spam reaching inboxes. They also proactively monitor for any
mailbox compromise or outbound spam through accounts.

I recently recommitted on a three year plan as I blagged a decent price.
Current introductory pricing for new customers is pretty good. I've hosted
with them since 2007 and their service has been pretty solid throughout
without price hikes.

Their tech support is much better than it used to be - they started to
scale up around 2009/2010 and struggled with some growing pains, but they
dealt with it and shared hosting service has been good for years. (see
dreamhoststatus.com) They've implemented some nice security improvements
behind the scenes and still offer things like SSH which can be useful.
Their mail hosting was also migrated to bigger, newer infrastructure a
while back which improved performance.

Support is ticket-based unless you pay for premium support, but they're
actually helpful and responsive after a ticket is assigned to someone. I've
very rarely needed to contact support over the last 15 odd years. Obviously
all their hosting is in the US which may have GDPR/data export implications
for commercial use.

Shameless referral link: https://www.dreamhost.com/r.cgi?264181 though feel
free to go direct.

I host other personal and business services with various providers,
including Mythic Beasts who have always provided gold standard service. But
that's for VPSes I still have to manage and maintain. Compared to a
specialist dedi/VPS provider, Dreamhost shared won't win site speed awards,
but it's perfectly fine and they do offer optimisations and one-click
installers for popular stuff. Certainly for my email needs, DH has always
provided what I wanted.

I generally use afraid.org premium account for external DNS, keeping an eye
on any occasional changes they might make to hosting or mail infrastructure
(as they will sometimes update default records automatically on the
assumption you are hosting DNS for your domains on their NS). DH will still
notify in advance if critical things like MX or IMAP access is changing,
which itself is a rare occurrence. 

[mailop] Uber users database leaked or user devices compromised?

[Daniele Nicolodi via mailop]

Hello,

this is maybe off-topic but maybe not so match as the only symptom so 
far are some unexpected emails. I have two users receiving "verification 
code" emails to login into their Uber accounts. Both users report to not 
have initiated any activity that may explain receiving these emails. The 
emails look legitimate.


I would think these are login attempts done with a database of email 
addresses and password leaked from whatever website and I would move on. 
However, both email addresses were the messages have been received are 
unique to the the Uber accounts. They are easily guessable (a local part 
address extension is added to published email addresses) but it is 
unlikely that someone reusing password databases would go through the 
trouble of actually trying to guess the local part extension.


The only explanation I have is that either the user devices have been 
compromised somehow or that an Uber users database (possibly with only 
email addresses) has been hacked/leaked.


Has anyone seen something that can hint to the second possibility?

Thank you.

Cheers,
Dan
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Re: [mailop] subaddresses, was Best mailbox provider for personal domain?

[Rob McEwen via mailop]

On 4/9/2022 4:15 PM, John Levine wrote:

We call that VERP, putting a per-recipient bounce address on bulk mail
so you can tell which recipients are bouncing. It works great, not for
any nefarious purpose, but because (as you are surely aware) bounces
and rejection messages are stupendously inconsistent, so VERP is by
far the best way to figure out which address is bad so you can stop
sending it mail. This is normal list management.

I agree there are lousy mailers who do listwashing, but VERP doesn't
have much to do with it.



John,

I did NOT meant to imply that VERP is either inherently bad nor most 
misused. Sorry if my message came across that way! For most most 
legit/well-known ESPs and for most of the legit organizations who are 
hosting their own email on their own mail servers - I think VERP is 
mostly good and used properly. I just strongly suspect that the many of 
the times that someone is looking for this feature in a shared/large 
domain-mail-hosting system - for a "personal domain" - in that case, 
this feature is probably more often than not going to be for nefarious 
purposes, even if there are some good exceptions to that. Spammers (and 
unethical ESP upstarts!) both LOVE and GREATLY NEED to "piggy back" on 
the good reputations of large systems, and so they try to do that as 
much as they can get away with it. If they can do that AND get this 
feature - that's a service that these types would especially desire! 
(But, in contrast, the type of person who would be an exception to this 
might be someone who would be involved in the mailop mailing list... so 
I'm guessing/assuming... that the originator of this thread... is innocent.)


--
Rob McEwen, invaluement

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Re: [mailop] Best mailbox provider for personal domain?

[Mark E. Jeftovic via mailop]

Hi Tara,

We bundle 3 and 5 IMAP boxes with standard and pro dns packages (domain
reg + DNS + email) for $35/year and $55/year

And yes, we support + addressing.

We've also implemented SRS on your email forwarders.

- mark

On 2022-04-09 12:26 PM, Tara Natanson via mailop wrote:
> Thank you all for your responses.   I am happy to pay some, but
> switching to google workspace with what I need would be 36$/month so
> looking for a cheaper option than that.  Yes Google says there is a
> no-cost option available but I did look into it and it won't work.  
>
> Biggest problem I'm having is that no one states in their advertising
> or FAQs if they support "+" addressing.  
>
> Is anyone using the following services and can confirm if they
> support  "+" addressing or not? 
> Dreamhost  
>  ZOHO 
> FASTMAIL - 
> iCloud-  
>
> Tara 
>
> On Sat, Apr 9, 2022 at 9:50 AM Byron Lunz  > wrote:
>
> Announcements about this from Google say that a "no cost option"
> will soon be announced, so it probably makes sense to wait a bit
> longer to see what that is. It *might* be a recommendation to move
> your domain to Google Domains, where you can get up to 100 email
> addresses forwarded to your free Gmail address.
> 
>
> On Fri, Apr 8, 2022 at 6:43 AM Tara Natanson via mailop
> mailto:mailop@mailop.org>> wrote:
>
> A while back there was a thread about the best place to host
> small biz domain email but I'm looking for something even
> smaller. 
>
> I've got my personal domain hosted on gmail.  It's been there
> for more than 10 years and was grandfathered into their free
> hosting tier.  In June GMAIL is doing away with this plan and
> going to charge 5$/address per domain per month.  I've got
> dozens of addresses setup so this really isn't a
> good/affordable option anymore. 
>
> Where would you recommend hosting your domain so that you can
> pop/imap, use "+" addressing, isn't spammer friendly, and
> basically works similar to gmail? I no longer have a website
> setup, so mail is the only thing I care about. I'm fine with a
> solution that has me setting up a new gmail account and just
> popping the mail to there, but what are folks using these
> days?  (assuming I have no desire to run my own server) 
>
> Thanks in advance for any recommendations!
>
> Tara Natanson
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> 
>
>
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-- 
Mark E. Jeftovic 
Co-founder & CEO easyDNS Technologies Inc.
+1-(416)-535-8672 ext 225

/"Never expect a thing you do not want,
and never desire a thing you do not expect."
-- Bob Proctor /
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Re: [mailop] subaddresses, was Best mailbox provider for personal domain?

[John Levine via mailop]

It appears that Rob McEwen via mailop  said:
>The main nefarious reason is someone wanting to send marketing messages 
>(OFTEN spamming!) from a large mail hosting service mailbox - and then 
>the "+" feature (used in either the SMTP envelope FROM or in a 
>"Reply-To" header) greatly improves the ability to track bounces and 
>unsubscribes and other abuse - ...

We call that VERP, putting a per-recipient bounce address on bulk mail
so you can tell which recipients are bouncing. It works great, not for
any nefarious purpose, but because (as you are surely aware) bounces
and rejection messages are stupendously inconsistent, so VERP is by
far the best way to figure out which address is bad so you can stop
sending it mail. This is normal list management.

I agree there are lousy mailers who do listwashing, but VERP doesn't
have much to do with it.

R's,
John

PS: Gmail allows general plus addresses, Yahoo allows a limited
number, can't think of any other significant commercial mail system
that allows either.

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Re: [mailop] Best mailbox provider for personal domain?

[Dave Crocker via mailop]

I tested it, before posting my note saying they supported it.

d/

On 4/9/2022 9:26 AM, Tara Natanson via mailop wrote:

FASTMAIL -

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Re: [mailop] Best mailbox provider for personal domain?

[Rob McEwen via mailop]

On 4/9/2022 12:26 PM, Tara Natanson via mailop wrote:
Biggest problem I'm having is that no one states in their advertising 
or FAQs if they support "+" addressing



There are innocent reasons to desire that "+" feature...

...and there are nefarious reasons for desiring it.

Innocent reasons include wanting to be able to track who shared your 
address with 3rd parties and/or being able to create rules to sort your 
email replies into folders, etc.


The main nefarious reason is someone wanting to send marketing messages 
(OFTEN spamming!) from a large mail hosting service mailbox - and then 
the "+" feature (used in either the SMTP envelope FROM or in a 
"Reply-To" header) greatly improves the ability to track bounces and 
unsubscribes and other abuse - often with a goal of getting rid of the 
worst complainers, but not actually reducing the spamming in any 
significant way. Using such a mail hosting service for spamming enables 
a spammer to benefit from that services' good reputation and "too big to 
block" size - whereas such a spammer trying to create their own isolated 
mail server - doesn't have that benefit and is at a great disadvantage 
when little-to-none of their outbound messages are actually desired and 
have proper permissions.


These types mailboxes for personal domains, even if under a "business" 
plan, are not intended to replace the services of an ESP, or to 
facilitate spamming - and sadly - for every 1 example of an innocent 
person wanting this feature for innocent reasons - there's likely 100+ 
spammers wanting that feature to help facilitate spamming. For this 
reason, it's possible that some of these services you mentioned DO have 
that feature, but chose to stop mentioning it in order to hopefully not 
attract the bad guys to their services!


When a service attracts a disproportionately larger amount of spammers 
to their mail hosting platform - it's typical for all the innocent users 
of that platform to have their deliverability suffer - even when shared 
sending-IPs are NOT listed on any major DNSBLs. And the work needed to 
stop that only increases the overhead costs of the service, which 
increases prices. So for multiple reasons, this isn't a victimless type 
of abuse.


I'm NOT claiming that YOU are trying to use this for spamming - just 
trying to raise awareness of some of the issues surrounding this feature 
and why some either don't offer it - or don't mention having it, even if 
it's technically offered.


-- Rob McEwen, invaluement
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Re: [mailop] Best mailbox provider for personal domain?

[Christof Meerwald via mailop]

On Sat, Apr 09, 2022 at 12:26:16PM -0400, Tara Natanson via mailop wrote:
> Thank you all for your responses.   I am happy to pay some, but
> switching to google workspace with what I need would be 36$/month so
> looking for a cheaper option than that.  Yes Google says there is a no-cost
> option available but I did look into it and it won't work.
> 
> Biggest problem I'm having is that no one states in their advertising or
> FAQs if they support "+" addressing.

Maybe https://www.infomaniak.com/en/hosting/service-mail/prices would
be another option.

I am only using their free email account as IMAP storage, but have
just tested that they do support "+" addressing (and they even mention
it in
https://www.infomaniak.com/en/hosting/service-mail/characteristics )


Christof

-- 

https://cmeerw.org sip:cmeerw at cmeerw.org
mailto:cmeerw at cmeerw.org   xmpp:cmeerw at cmeerw.org
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Re: [mailop] Best mailbox provider for personal domain?

[Byron Lunz via mailop]

Announcements about this from Google say that a "no cost option" will soon
be announced, so it probably makes sense to wait a bit longer to see what
that is. It *might* be a recommendation to move your domain to Google
Domains, where you can get up to 100 email addresses forwarded to your free
Gmail address. 

On Fri, Apr 8, 2022 at 6:43 AM Tara Natanson via mailop 
wrote:

> A while back there was a thread about the best place to host small biz
> domain email but I'm looking for something even smaller.
>
> I've got my personal domain hosted on gmail.  It's been there for more
> than 10 years and was grandfathered into their free hosting tier.  In June
> GMAIL is doing away with this plan and going to charge 5$/address per
> domain per month.  I've got dozens of addresses setup so this really isn't
> a good/affordable option anymore.
>
> Where would you recommend hosting your domain so that you can pop/imap,
> use "+" addressing, isn't spammer friendly, and basically works similar to
> gmail? I no longer have a website setup, so mail is the only thing I care
> about. I'm fine with a solution that has me setting up a new gmail account
> and just popping the mail to there, but what are folks using these days?
> (assuming I have no desire to run my own server)
>
> Thanks in advance for any recommendations!
>
> Tara Natanson
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Re: [mailop] Best mailbox provider for personal domain?

[Tara Natanson via mailop]

Thank you all for your responses.   I am happy to pay some, but
switching to google workspace with what I need would be 36$/month so
looking for a cheaper option than that.  Yes Google says there is a no-cost
option available but I did look into it and it won't work.

Biggest problem I'm having is that no one states in their advertising or
FAQs if they support "+" addressing.

Is anyone using the following services and can confirm if they support  "+"
addressing or not?
Dreamhost
 ZOHO
FASTMAIL -
iCloud-

Tara

On Sat, Apr 9, 2022 at 9:50 AM Byron Lunz  wrote:

> Announcements about this from Google say that a "no cost option" will soon
> be announced, so it probably makes sense to wait a bit longer to see what
> that is. It *might* be a recommendation to move your domain to Google
> Domains, where you can get up to 100 email addresses forwarded to your
> free Gmail address. 
>
> On Fri, Apr 8, 2022 at 6:43 AM Tara Natanson via mailop 
> wrote:
>
>> A while back there was a thread about the best place to host small biz
>> domain email but I'm looking for something even smaller.
>>
>> I've got my personal domain hosted on gmail.  It's been there for more
>> than 10 years and was grandfathered into their free hosting tier.  In June
>> GMAIL is doing away with this plan and going to charge 5$/address per
>> domain per month.  I've got dozens of addresses setup so this really isn't
>> a good/affordable option anymore.
>>
>> Where would you recommend hosting your domain so that you can pop/imap,
>> use "+" addressing, isn't spammer friendly, and basically works similar to
>> gmail? I no longer have a website setup, so mail is the only thing I care
>> about. I'm fine with a solution that has me setting up a new gmail account
>> and just popping the mail to there, but what are folks using these days?
>> (assuming I have no desire to run my own server)
>>
>> Thanks in advance for any recommendations!
>>
>> Tara Natanson
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>>
>
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Re: [mailop] Best mailbox provider for personal domain?

[Maarten Oelering via mailop]

What about iCloud+ with 50GB for $1/€1. I see it supports up to 5 custom 
domains.

Maarten

> On 9 Apr 2022, at 08:40, Byung-Hee HWANG via mailop  wrote:
> 
> Tara Natanson via mailop  writes:
> 
>> (...thanks...)
>> (assuming I have no desire to run my own server) 
>> 
>> Thanks in advance for any recommendations!
> 
> In this Earth, there is no free chagre for my own domain. Still Google
> Workspace will be good value for money.
> 
>> Tara Natanson
> 
> Sincerely, Byung-Hee
> 
> -- 
> ^고맙습니다 _白衣從軍_ 감사합니다_^))//
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Re: [mailop] Best mailbox provider for personal domain?

[Byung-Hee HWANG via mailop]

Tara Natanson via mailop  writes:

> (...thanks...)
> (assuming I have no desire to run my own server) 
>
> Thanks in advance for any recommendations!

In this Earth, there is no free chagre for my own domain. Still Google
Workspace will be good value for money.

> Tara Natanson

Sincerely, Byung-Hee

-- 
^고맙습니다 _白衣從軍_ 감사합니다_^))//
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