Re: [mailop] Partial issues forwarding mails to gmail.com

[Ángel via mailop]

On 2022-11-24 at 17:20 +0100, Martin Flygenring via mailop wrote:
> Is anyone else seeing similar issues when forwarding mails from 
> gmail.com, back to other addresses at gmail.com?

Yes, it seems nitpicky again.
I recently received a report of one of those failing. Which are a pain
to figure out if it's actually an error in the forwarding server, that
might be unexpectedly breaking the DKIM signature... or not at all.

Gmail seems to have periods which are fine, and then some months when
they reject a lot more.
I can't but think that Black Friday is probably related. PErhaps they
are receiving more spam that usual, which makes their filters to be
more aggressive; or perhaps we are even receiving more spam that gets
forwarded to them.

Regards


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Re: [mailop] Partial issues forwarding mails to gmail.com

[Ángel via mailop]

On 2022-11-24 at 15:28 -0800, Michael Peddemors wrote:
> Every modern email client can check multiple email accounts.
> The day when remote forwarding was a necessity has now passed, and
> now with things like SPF and other email tests, forwarding simply
> breaks..

When trying to get some user in the past to do that, I have been told
that the mail client they want to use is... Gmail.
One which doesn't support fetching mail from an IMAP account.

(Also, with no clear explanation on why only that "client" serves their
workflow [1], so it's not as if we could replace it by adding an extra
feature, even if we had the means to d that)


1- https://xkcd.com/1172/


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Re: [mailop] Partial issues forwarding mails to gmail.com

[Ángel via mailop]

On 2022-11-25 at 00:10 -0500, Dave Anderson wrote:
> And even when it's possible it's not always desirable. An
> organization 
> I'm involved with has many @ email aliases
> which forward to the person(s) responsible for those functions. This
> is convenient for people who need to communicate with us since they
> don't have to hunt for the responsible person(s) and their email
> address(es), and is convenient for us since we can easily change the
> forwarding when who is responsible for a function changes.
> 
>   Dave

Forwarding is not the problem. The problem is that the forwardee's
server is not aware of the forwarded, and treats it as first-party
email.
I'd say that forwarding such as the one you describe is done internally
every day at lots of organisations. And it doesn't cause any problem,
since the original and final server are "the same" (in the same
organizational domain) and there is a trust relationship.

However, if they are handled by distinct organisations, say 
j...@freebsd.org to j...@example.net, jdoe should get example.net
configured so that freebsd,org MTA is treated as a trusted hop [whenreceiving 
email for j...@example.net].

When people configure forwarding only at the sending side, the setup is
incomplete, and the result may or may not work (or, as it oten happens,
work only sometimes), since from example.net point of view, the freebsd
MTA is "spoofing everything".

Now, one reason it's not done is that the end users don't know they
should do anything at that side, but another is that most of them use
provders which don't offer such option at all (and generally even
freemails for which they don't have any support),

So it's a semi-broken setup.


(Yes, ARC is presented as a solution, and it could avoid it if the
sealer was trusted, but you would still need to have a way to trust it,
which is largely similar to getting it  configured based on source IP,
or a forwarding DKIM selector)


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Re: [mailop] Partial issues forwarding mails to gmail.com

[Dave Anderson via mailop]

And even when it's possible it's not always desirable. An organization 
I'm involved with has many @ email aliases which 
forward to the person(s) responsible for those functions. This is 
convenient for people who need to communicate with us since they don't 
have to hunt for the responsible person(s) and their email address(es), 
and is convenient for us since we can easily change the forwarding when 
who is responsible for a function changes.

Dave

On Fri, 25 Nov 2022, Philip Paeps via mailop wrote:

> On 2022-11-25 07:28:03 (+0800), Michael Peddemors via mailop wrote:
>> Of course, one thing not mentioned on this thread..
>>
>> Simply stop allowing remote forwarding..
>>
>> Every modern email client can check multiple email accounts.
>> The day when remote forwarding was a necessity has now passed, and now 
>> with things like SPF and other email tests, forwarding simply breaks..
>>
>> Stop allowing remote forwarding, and reduce support ;)
>>
>> Not so tongue in cheek.. Local forwarding is one thing, remote 
>> forwarding for end users.. not so much.
>>
>> And, you would be surprised how many customer might just prefer using 
>> your email services to Gmail's.
>
> This is not always possible.
>
> Wearing my postmas...@freebsd.org hat: we don't want to store users' 
> mail.  We also don't want to decide for our users who should be storing 
> their email.  So we give them a choice to forward it to their mailbox 
> provider of choice.
>
> I realise we're not a representative use case but I'm sure we're not 
> alone.
>
> There are legitimate use cases for remote forwarding.
>
> Philip
>
>

-- 
Dave Anderson

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Re: [mailop] Partial issues forwarding mails to gmail.com

[Philip Paeps via mailop]

On 2022-11-25 07:28:03 (+0800), Michael Peddemors via mailop wrote:

Of course, one thing not mentioned on this thread..

Simply stop allowing remote forwarding..

Every modern email client can check multiple email accounts.
The day when remote forwarding was a necessity has now passed, and now 
with things like SPF and other email tests, forwarding simply breaks..


Stop allowing remote forwarding, and reduce support ;)

Not so tongue in cheek.. Local forwarding is one thing, remote 
forwarding for end users.. not so much.


And, you would be surprised how many customer might just prefer using 
your email services to Gmail's.


This is not always possible.

Wearing my postmas...@freebsd.org hat: we don't want to store users' 
mail.  We also don't want to decide for our users who should be storing 
their email.  So we give them a choice to forward it to their mailbox 
provider of choice.


I realise we're not a representative use case but I'm sure we're not 
alone.


There are legitimate use cases for remote forwarding.

Philip

--
Philip Paeps
Senior Reality Engineer
Alternative Enterprises
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Re: [mailop] Partial issues forwarding mails to gmail.com

[Michael Peddemors via mailop]

Of course, one thing not mentioned on this thread..

Simply stop allowing remote forwarding..

Every modern email client can check multiple email accounts.
The day when remote forwarding was a necessity has now passed, and now 
with things like SPF and other email tests, forwarding simply breaks..


Stop allowing remote forwarding, and reduce support ;)

Not so tongue in cheek.. Local forwarding is one thing, remote 
forwarding for end users.. not so much.


And, you would be surprised how many customer might just prefer using 
your email services to Gmail's.


On 2022-11-24 11:53, Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop wrote:

Am 24.11.22 um 17:20 schrieb Martin Flygenring via mailop:
... [Google says] Our system has detected an unusual rate of 
unsolicited mail originating from your IP address.

...
Now, the interesting part is that for almost 98% of the mails 
currently in queue, Google is the original sender of the email.


I don't see a contradiction here. Google is a massive sender of spam, so 
it would only be normal to classify their email as unsolicited...


Cheers (somewhat tongue-in-cheek),
Hans-Martin

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Visit us at http://www.linuxmagic.com @linuxmagic
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Re: [mailop] Partial issues forwarding mails to gmail.com

[Antoine Minoux via mailop]

Hey Martin,

Just my two cents from running a service dedicated to email forwarding;
We've been getting a lot of help from the community recently, so I thought
I'd contribute as well.

We're often seeing this type of error, and I agree with what Jarland has
said previously. Gmail only flags the specific IP of the relays you are
using to deliver emails, which explains why only a few emails get picked up
out of millions sent per month. I'd do a few things:


   1. Find the IP addresses that are constantly getting rejected. I bet you
   have 2 or 3 IPs that soft-bounce 100% of emails.

   2. Try to investigate when it started happening (i.e. getting the first
   4.2.1 messages) and see if there was something you forwarded that Gmail
   could have picked up as obviously malicious or spammy. That's subjective,
   but sometimes it'll just be evident.

   3. Retire the blocked IPs temporarily (we've found that waiting at least
   a week and restarting slowly works well), or at least prevent them from
   delivering to Gmail. It also doesn't hurt to fill Google's Bulk Sender
   contact form
   ,
although
   it's quite an opaque process, and you won't ever get an answer - even if
   they take action.


Hope that helps,
Antoine

On Thu, Nov 24, 2022 at 8:57 PM Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop <
mailop@mailop.org> wrote:

> Am 24.11.22 um 17:20 schrieb Martin Flygenring via mailop:
> > ... [Google says] Our system has detected an unusual rate of unsolicited
> mail originating from your IP address.
> > ...
> > Now, the interesting part is that for almost 98% of the mails currently
> in queue, Google is the original sender of the
> > email.
>
> I don't see a contradiction here. Google is a massive sender of spam, so
> it would only be normal to classify their email
> as unsolicited...
>
> Cheers (somewhat tongue-in-cheek),
> Hans-Martin
>
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Re: [mailop] Partial issues forwarding mails to gmail.com

[Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop]

Am 24.11.22 um 17:20 schrieb Martin Flygenring via mailop:

... [Google says] Our system has detected an unusual rate of unsolicited mail 
originating from your IP address.
...
Now, the interesting part is that for almost 98% of the mails currently in queue, Google is the original sender of the 
email.


I don't see a contradiction here. Google is a massive sender of spam, so it would only be normal to classify their email 
as unsolicited...


Cheers (somewhat tongue-in-cheek),
Hans-Martin

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Re: [mailop] Partial issues forwarding mails to gmail.com

[Jarland Donnell via mailop]

I have noticed that one of the most consistently rejected emails when 
forwarded to Gmail, is an email from Google. I just rotate outbound IPs 
on that message using ZoneMTA and it'll get through. Waiting for an IP 
to clear a rate limit with Gmail just seems like bad business at this 
point.


On 2022-11-24 10:20, Martin Flygenring via mailop wrote:

Hello all

For the past few weeks, we've noticed increasing queues on our 
MX-servers when forwarding some emails to our users alternate 
addresses, if that forwarding address is a gmail.com address. Most of 
the mails go through without issues, but some end up getting deferred 
with the error message:
    421 4.7.28 [185.164.14.118 15] Our system has detected an unusual 
rate of unsolicited mail originating from your IP address. To protect 
our users from spam, mail sent from your IP address has been 
temporarily rate limited. Please visit 
https://support.google.com/mail/?p=UnsolicitedRateLimitError to review 
our Bulk Email Senders Guidelines. 
bj3-20020a170902850300b001895e356f00si917651plb.152 - gsmtp (in reply 
to EOD command)


Now, the interesting part is that for almost 98% of the mails currently 
in queue, Google is the original sender of the email.


Total mails deferred/in queue due to the above message, at the time of 
writing: 2696

Top 3 original sender:
   2582 gmail.com
 38 google.com
 22 calendar-server.bounces.google.com

For reference, we currently have 2.8m registered domains, meaning we 
send millions of mails towards gmail on a monthly basis.
So while it is a very small amount of mails that end up in this state, 
we are still puzzled about why. Especially when so many of the original 
senders are gmail-addresses or other Google addresses.


I have been looking through our queues, and most often it looks like 
very legit mails that gmail just doesn't want to accept. For example:

- Friends talking about a christmas lunch/dinner
- Someone who's heating at home isn't working
- Some friends talking about a LEGO build they're doing together
- Building management meetings
- Someone that's sad they can't join a presentation because they're on 
vacation

.. and so on. Very innocent stuff.

We use SRS when forwarding, and every forward that users set up 
requires verification by the forward recipient, by them clicking a link 
to confirm they want to accept these forwards.


Looking at our graphs, between Oct 25th and Nov 7th we had 16 mails get 
deferred/bounce because of the above error message. Since Nov 8th, 
we're looking at somewhere between 250 and 1000 mails pr. day. 
Sometimes the mail eventually goes through with delay, but there are 
some that never make it through.


Is anyone else seeing similar issues when forwarding mails from 
gmail.com, back to other addresses at gmail.com?

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[mailop] Partial issues forwarding mails to gmail.com

[Martin Flygenring via mailop]

Hello all

For the past few weeks, we've noticed increasing queues on our 
MX-servers when forwarding some emails to our users alternate addresses, 
if that forwarding address is a gmail.com address. Most of the mails go 
through without issues, but some end up getting deferred with the error 
message:
    421 4.7.28 [185.164.14.118 15] Our system has detected an unusual 
rate of unsolicited mail originating from your IP address. To protect 
our users from spam, mail sent from your IP address has been temporarily 
rate limited. Please visit 
https://support.google.com/mail/?p=UnsolicitedRateLimitError to review 
our Bulk Email Senders Guidelines. 
bj3-20020a170902850300b001895e356f00si917651plb.152 - gsmtp (in reply to 
EOD command)


Now, the interesting part is that for almost 98% of the mails currently 
in queue, Google is the original sender of the email.


Total mails deferred/in queue due to the above message, at the time of 
writing: 2696

Top 3 original sender:
   2582 gmail.com
 38 google.com
 22 calendar-server.bounces.google.com

For reference, we currently have 2.8m registered domains, meaning we 
send millions of mails towards gmail on a monthly basis.
So while it is a very small amount of mails that end up in this state, 
we are still puzzled about why. Especially when so many of the original 
senders are gmail-addresses or other Google addresses.


I have been looking through our queues, and most often it looks like 
very legit mails that gmail just doesn't want to accept. For example:

- Friends talking about a christmas lunch/dinner
- Someone who's heating at home isn't working
- Some friends talking about a LEGO build they're doing together
- Building management meetings
- Someone that's sad they can't join a presentation because they're on 
vacation

.. and so on. Very innocent stuff.

We use SRS when forwarding, and every forward that users set up requires 
verification by the forward recipient, by them clicking a link to 
confirm they want to accept these forwards.


Looking at our graphs, between Oct 25th and Nov 7th we had 16 mails get 
deferred/bounce because of the above error message. Since Nov 8th, we're 
looking at somewhere between 250 and 1000 mails pr. day. Sometimes the 
mail eventually goes through with delay, but there are some that never 
make it through.


Is anyone else seeing similar issues when forwarding mails from 
gmail.com, back to other addresses at gmail.com?



--
Martin Flygenring (maf)
Systems Engineer, One.com

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