Re: [mailop] change at gmail???
> I guess what I'm trying to understand is why anyone would > base their acceptance or rejection on the 822 From: header. > It seems that this causes mailing list managers to have to > jump through hoops to rewrite the From: header in strange ways. Mostly because there are other reasons to munge the header. Failing to do so, for example, can violate SPF, DKIM, DMARC, PGP and other add-ons which rely upon specific structures within the header to operate. -S ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] change at gmail???
That has been widely discussed many times, I'd suggest starting with the DMARC FAQ here: https://dmarc.org/wiki/FAQ And yes, it has a negative impact on a number of practices, probably the worst impact to many technical folks is the effect on mailing lists. Brandon On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Geoff Mulligan wrote: > I guess what I'm trying to understand is why anyone would base their > acceptance or rejection on the 822 From: header. It seems that this causes > mailing list managers to have to jump through hoops to rewrite the From: > header in strange ways. > > Geoff > > > > On 06/15/2016 06:16 AM, Brandon Long via mailop wrote: > > So, we've been doing dmarc rejects for many years, for Yahoo.com since > they went p=reject two years ago. > > We may sometimes override the rejection, but no one should rely on that. > > I don't know of anything that has changed recently about this. > > Forwarding doesn't break with this unless you modify the mail or the > original message wasn't dkim authenticated. We've seen some recent > examples of banks going p=quarantine while only doing spf auth, which > obviously doesn't survive forwarding. > > Brandon > > On Jun 15, 2016 1:57 AM, "Jeffry Dwight" > wrote: > >> Sorry for the bad example. We don't use spaces when sending email out, >> although >> as Jon Postel would have approved, we accept them for incoming mail. >> There are a >> lot of broken MTAs out there. >> >> Jeffry >> >> --- Original Message --- >> From: >> To: mailop@mailop.org >> CC: >> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 20:23:36 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [mailop] change at gmail??? >> >> > On Tue, Jun 14, 2016, Jeffry Dwight wrote: >> >> > MAIL FROM: >> > RCPT TO: >> >> RFC 5321 SMTP October 2008 >> .. >>Since it has been a common source of errors, it is worth noting that >>spaces are not permitted on either side of the colon following FROM >>in the MAIL command or TO in the RCPT command. The syntax is exactly >>as given above. >> >> >> ___ >> mailop mailing list >> mailop@mailop.org >> https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop >> >> >> >> ___ >> mailop mailing list >> mailop@mailop.org >> https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop >> > > > ___ > mailop mailing > listmailop@mailop.orghttps://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop > > > -- > > *--* > *Â Geoff Mulligan* > *Â Chairman LoRa Alliance* > *Â Founder IPSO Alliance* > *Â Former White House Presidential Innovation Fellow* > > > > ___ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org > https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop > > ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] change at gmail???
I'd suggest reading up on DMARC. The goal of which is to allow a domain owner to prevent use of their domain name by bad guys. In this case, Yahoo wants to keep non-Yahoo servers from sending mail with a Yahoo 822 From header. Mailing lists get caught in the crossfire, but can be fixed pretty easily. (There's a whole separate argument over whether or not this is a good thing. I take the pragmatic view that regardless of opinion, it's out there and has to be dealt with, so that's what I focus on.) https://dmarc.org/ is a good place to start. Cheers, Al Iverson -- Al Iverson www.aliverson.com (312)725-0130 On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 9:12 AM, Geoff Mulligan wrote: > I guess what I'm trying to understand is why anyone would base their > acceptance or rejection on the 822 From: header. It seems that this causes > mailing list managers to have to jump through hoops to rewrite the From: > header in strange ways. > > Geoff > > > > On 06/15/2016 06:16 AM, Brandon Long via mailop wrote: > > So, we've been doing dmarc rejects for many years, for Yahoo.com since they > went p=reject two years ago. > > We may sometimes override the rejection, but no one should rely on that. > > I don't know of anything that has changed recently about this. > > Forwarding doesn't break with this unless you modify the mail or the > original message wasn't dkim authenticated. We've seen some recent examples > of banks going p=quarantine while only doing spf auth, which obviously > doesn't survive forwarding. > > Brandon > > > On Jun 15, 2016 1:57 AM, "Jeffry Dwight" wrote: >> >> Sorry for the bad example. We don't use spaces when sending email out, >> although >> as Jon Postel would have approved, we accept them for incoming mail. There >> are a >> lot of broken MTAs out there. >> >> Jeffry >> >> --- Original Message --- >> From: >> To: mailop@mailop.org >> CC: >> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 20:23:36 -0700 >> Subject: Re: [mailop] change at gmail??? >> >> > On Tue, Jun 14, 2016, Jeffry Dwight wrote: >> >> > MAIL FROM: >> > RCPT TO: >> >> RFC 5321 SMTP October 2008 >> .. >>Since it has been a common source of errors, it is worth noting that >>spaces are not permitted on either side of the colon following FROM >>in the MAIL command or TO in the RCPT command. The syntax is exactly >>as given above. >> >> >> ___ >> mailop mailing list >> mailop@mailop.org >> https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop >> >> >> >> ___ >> mailop mailing list >> mailop@mailop.org >> https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop > > > > ___ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org > https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop > > > -- > > -- > Â Geoff Mulligan > Â Chairman LoRa Alliance > Â Founder IPSO Alliance > Â Former White House Presidential Innovation Fellow > > > > ___ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org > https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop > ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] change at gmail???
I guess what I'm trying to understand is why anyone would base their
acceptance or rejection on the 822 From: header. It seems that this
causes mailing list managers to have to jump through hoops to rewrite
the From: header in strange ways.
Geoff
On 06/15/2016 06:16 AM, Brandon Long via mailop wrote:
So, we've been doing dmarc rejects for many years, for Yahoo.com since
they went p=reject two years ago.
We may sometimes override the rejection, but no one should rely on that.
I don't know of anything that has changed recently about this.
Forwarding doesn't break with this unless you modify the mail or the
original message wasn't dkim authenticated. We've seen some recent
examples of banks going p=quarantine while only doing spf auth, which
obviously doesn't survive forwarding.
Brandon
On Jun 15, 2016 1:57 AM, "Jeffry Dwight" <mailto:jeffry.dwi...@greyware.com>> wrote:
Sorry for the bad example. We don't use spaces when sending email
out, although
as Jon Postel would have approved, we accept them for incoming
mail. There are a
lot of broken MTAs out there.
Jeffry
--- Original Message ---
From: mailto:ml%2bmai...@esmtp.org>>
To: mailop@mailop.org <mailto:mailop@mailop.org>
CC:
Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 20:23:36 -0700
Subject: Re: [mailop] change at gmail???
> On Tue, Jun 14, 2016, Jeffry Dwight wrote:
> MAIL FROM:
> RCPT TO:
RFC 5321 SMTP October 2008
..
Since it has been a common source of errors, it is worth noting
that
spaces are not permitted on either side of the colon following FROM
in the MAIL command or TO in the RCPT command. The syntax is
exactly
as given above.
___
mailop mailing list
mailop@mailop.org <mailto:mailop@mailop.org>
https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
___
mailop mailing list
mailop@mailop.org <mailto:mailop@mailop.org>
https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
___
mailop mailing list
mailop@mailop.org
https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
--
*--**
**Â Geoff Mulligan**
**Â Chairman LoRa Alliance**
**Â Founder IPSO Alliance**
**Â Former White House Presidential Innovation Fellow**
*
___
mailop mailing list
mailop@mailop.org
https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] change at gmail???
So, we've been doing dmarc rejects for many years, for Yahoo.com since they went p=reject two years ago. We may sometimes override the rejection, but no one should rely on that. I don't know of anything that has changed recently about this. Forwarding doesn't break with this unless you modify the mail or the original message wasn't dkim authenticated. We've seen some recent examples of banks going p=quarantine while only doing spf auth, which obviously doesn't survive forwarding. Brandon On Jun 15, 2016 1:57 AM, "Jeffry Dwight" wrote: > Sorry for the bad example. We don't use spaces when sending email out, > although > as Jon Postel would have approved, we accept them for incoming mail. There > are a > lot of broken MTAs out there. > > Jeffry > > --- Original Message --- > From: > To: mailop@mailop.org > CC: > Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 20:23:36 -0700 > Subject: Re: [mailop] change at gmail??? > > > On Tue, Jun 14, 2016, Jeffry Dwight wrote: > > > MAIL FROM: > > RCPT TO: > > RFC 5321 SMTP October 2008 > .. >Since it has been a common source of errors, it is worth noting that >spaces are not permitted on either side of the colon following FROM >in the MAIL command or TO in the RCPT command. The syntax is exactly >as given above. > > > ___ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org > https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop > > > > ___ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org > https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop > ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] change at gmail???
Sorry for the bad example. We don't use spaces when sending email out, although as Jon Postel would have approved, we accept them for incoming mail. There are a lot of broken MTAs out there. Jeffry --- Original Message --- From: To: mailop@mailop.org CC: Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 20:23:36 -0700 Subject: Re: [mailop] change at gmail??? > On Tue, Jun 14, 2016, Jeffry Dwight wrote: > MAIL FROM: > RCPT TO: RFC 5321 SMTP October 2008 .. Since it has been a common source of errors, it is worth noting that spaces are not permitted on either side of the colon following FROM in the MAIL command or TO in the RCPT command. The syntax is exactly as given above. ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] change at gmail???
On Tue, Jun 14, 2016, Jeffry Dwight wrote: > MAIL FROM: > RCPT TO: RFC 5321 SMTP October 2008 ... Since it has been a common source of errors, it is worth noting that spaces are not permitted on either side of the colon following FROM in the MAIL command or TO in the RCPT command. The syntax is exactly as given above. ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] change at gmail???
Hi, Geoff. Yes, at some time in the recent past, GMail started inspecting the header FROM: field as well as the envelope sender. I noticed it myself just a couple of weeks ago, when I was revamping our sender-rewriting-scheme code. I now put the SRS address into the headers as well as the envelope, and use the Reply-To: header to direct replies. I extract the decoration (if any) from the original email and create something like MAIL FROM: RCPT TO: From: "Joe Blow" Reply-To: joeb...@example.com Resent-From: originalrecipi...@example.com To: whatever the original said for the headers. It's messy, but it works. The only real drawback is that some users get confused by the SRS email address, and/or have filters in place that auto-direct incoming mail to specified folders. However, since GMail no longer accepts forwards done that way, the filters are toast. It's Hobson's Choice: Either embrace SRS and violate the RFCs (create a new email entirely), or stop trying to forward. I haven't seen rejections from the other big providers yet, but I suppose they'll all fall in line eventually. Jeffry Dwight --- Original Message --- From: Geoff Mulligan To: mailop@mailop.org CC: Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2016 14:41:50 -0600 Subject: [mailop] change at gmail??? > I noticed a change at gmail in just the past few hours... Previously mail that my mailing list software sent to gmail with an envelop sender set to list-boun...@mydomain.com and the From: field being From: u...@yahoo.com worked just fine. Now these messages are bounced with a DMARC error. Am I just confused or did something at google change? Does mailing list software need to rewrite the From field also now? Geoff ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
[mailop] change at gmail???
I noticed a change at gmail in just the past few hours... Previously mail that my mailing list software sent to gmail with an envelop sender set to list-boun...@mydomain.com and the From: field being From: u...@yahoo.com worked just fine. Now these messages are bounced with a DMARC error. Am I just confused or did something at google change? Does mailing list software need to rewrite the From field also now? Geoff ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] change at gmail???
Yep, though this is not that new. See http://www.spamresource.com/2015/02/dmarc-mailing-lists-roundup.html and http://www.spamresource.com/2014/04/run-email-discussion-list-heres-how-to.html and lots of other examples. Welcome to a DMARC world. Regards, Al Iverson -- Al Iverson www.aliverson.com (312)725-0130 On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 3:41 PM, Geoff Mulligan wrote: > I noticed a change at gmail in just the past few hours... > > Previously mail that my mailing list software sent to gmail with an envelop > sender set to list-boun...@mydomain.com and the From: field being From: > u...@yahoo.com worked just fine. > > Now these messages are bounced with a DMARC error. > > Am I just confused or did something at google change? > > Does mailing list software need to rewrite the From field also now? > > Geoff > > > ___ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org > https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
