Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails [slightly OT]
On 13/6/2016 19:14, Brandon Long via mailop wrote: I would argue something differently: many email users (and postal mail, for that matter), have an expectation that email is mostly but not 100% reliable, due to spam false positives or just the lack of delivery notification. People can then choose to not respond to a message and later claim they never got it, and folks are not surprised. I'm not saying that as mail operators we should encourage this, but we should understand user expectations. Ie, if we decided suddenly to turn on delivery notification requesting/responding for all Gmail users, that would be a huge change to user's expectations, and probably wouldn't go over very well. It's easy to see why turning on read notifications would be problemmatic, but I think most users would be equally surprised by delivery notifications. And this is quite different from several other messaging systems that people routinely use where delivery and read notifications are standard, along with typing and prescence notifications. Brandon I see your point about user expectations varying. Of course, users want to have all mail accounted for but also simultaneously want to be protected from spam and not to be "annoyed" by having to do administrative work. I still believe we have a choice that does not involve just giving up. However, I'm not in agreement that users actually expect internet mail to be occasionally lost. I have serviced thousands of users and none of them told me they expect mail to dissappear. Maybe you have actual metrics that I don't and the trend changes at scale? I think the parallels between actual IRL post and internet mail have a limit, and this is part of it. As for delivery notifications, sure, I would not see a point in forcing them on people. I was not suggesting we force delivery notifications on everyone, I was referring to not swallowing up mails without a bounce of some sort. Even time-delayed. Or even a compromise solution, like having a special folder for those mails, putting then into Junk, Deleted, etc. I believe we've actually made a choice as an internet society to get to this point, bastardising what mail is. I guess some would call it progress, but I don't. --GM ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails [slightly OT]
I would argue something differently: many email users (and postal mail, for that matter), have an expectation that email is mostly but not 100% reliable, due to spam false positives or just the lack of delivery notification. People can then choose to not respond to a message and later claim they never got it, and folks are not surprised. I'm not saying that as mail operators we should encourage this, but we should understand user expectations. Ie, if we decided suddenly to turn on delivery notification requesting/responding for all Gmail users, that would be a huge change to user's expectations, and probably wouldn't go over very well. It's easy to see why turning on read notifications would be problemmatic, but I think most users would be equally surprised by delivery notifications. And this is quite different from several other messaging systems that people routinely use where delivery and read notifications are standard, along with typing and prescence notifications. Brandon On Thu, Jun 9, 2016 at 8:08 AM, G. Miliotis wrote: > On 9/6/2016 17:46, Renaud Allard via mailop wrote: > >> Actually, many small operators also silently discard email. Whether it's >> by incompetence, or voluntarily doesn't matter much. It's just less >> visible than hotmail. >> > > Undoubtedly, but they can't use the scaling-is-hard argument as a free > pass. We should all be accountable if we break mail, big or small. > > In addition, you can prectically ignore a small mail operator but not the > big players. > > > --GM > > > ___ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org > https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop > ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails [slightly OT]
On 9/6/2016 17:46, Renaud Allard via mailop wrote: Actually, many small operators also silently discard email. Whether it's by incompetence, or voluntarily doesn't matter much. It's just less visible than hotmail. Undoubtedly, but they can't use the scaling-is-hard argument as a free pass. We should all be accountable if we break mail, big or small. In addition, you can prectically ignore a small mail operator but not the big players. --GM ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails [slightly OT]
On 06/09/2016 04:33 PM, G. Miliotis wrote: > On 9/6/2016 16:13, Michael Wise via mailop wrote: >> The discussion is on-going. > > This is at least one good thing about this whole deal. I think your > suggestion about deleted items (marked as such somehow) would be a good > compromise. > While it's better, the junk folder is still the best solution. Do you often search in your deleted folder for something you haven't deleted? > FWIW, personally, I find it all an interesting social mental exercise. > Apparently it's more important for huge mail operators to continue to > exist and grow, rather than keep mail working as everyone expects it to. > I'm seeing big players who have cornered the mail "market" that can't > operate properly cause of their growth and their inability to solve the > scaling problems. I don't see why we NEED to compromise the thing we do, > just cause of the way we currently do it. We, as a society, chose to > support the centralization of these services directly or indirectly. So, > now we simply don't have mail anymore. We have "mostly mail". > Actually, many small operators also silently discard email. Whether it's by incompetence, or voluntarily doesn't matter much. It's just less visible than hotmail. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails [slightly OT]
On 9/6/2016 16:13, Michael Wise via mailop wrote: The discussion is on-going. This is at least one good thing about this whole deal. I think your suggestion about deleted items (marked as such somehow) would be a good compromise. FWIW, personally, I find it all an interesting social mental exercise. Apparently it's more important for huge mail operators to continue to exist and grow, rather than keep mail working as everyone expects it to. I'm seeing big players who have cornered the mail "market" that can't operate properly cause of their growth and their inability to solve the scaling problems. I don't see why we NEED to compromise the thing we do, just cause of the way we currently do it. We, as a society, chose to support the centralization of these services directly or indirectly. So, now we simply don't have mail anymore. We have "mostly mail". Of course, those who actually know what's going on and those who care, can still go to smaller operators but their messages may be dropped by the big boys anyway. I guess our internet's workings reflect our real life's workings. --GM ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
