Re: [mailop] So how do you actually manage to send mails to outlook/hotmail?
Marcus, I'd be willing to offer up my server for use as an SMTP relay, after getting a bit of understanding of the current mail stream and its reputation. I'm running a server doing very similar things to yours, and I generally don't have any Microsoft issues (today, anyway). Combining good mail streams together is a potential mitigation against future issues, as well. Feel free to reach out, if you are interested and would like to discuss. Cheers, Al Iverson On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 12:12 PM Christof Meerwald via mailop wrote: > > On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 07:39:31PM +0200, Marcus Hoffmann via mailop wrote: > > for context, I run a small mailserver, used by mainly me and a couple of > > friends and famely. I also run a few webservices which sometimes send > > transactional emails to people who sign up there. (Mainly a weblate instance > > with around 150 or so users). > > I used to be in a similar situation in that I am using a VPS as a > private email server which happened to be in a bad network > neighbourhood, so any emails to Microsoft got blocked. > > I eventually managed to got the sending IP unblocked by providing > proof that I am in full control of the sending IP address (and have > nothing to do with any other IP addresses in the network > neighbourhood) - basically I was asked to send them an invoice from my > VPS provider sowing the IP address. Now emails to Microsoft seem to > get to the Inbox. > > Maybe I was actually lucky that emails got completely blocked - I > guess the case of emails being marked as spam are harder to argue than > an outright block. > > > Christof > > -- > > http://cmeerw.org sip:cmeerw at cmeerw.org > mailto:cmeerw at cmeerw.org xmpp:cmeerw at cmeerw.org > ___ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org > https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop -- Al Iverson // Wombatmail // Chicago Deliverability: https://spamresource.com DNS Tools: https://xnnd.com ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] So how do you actually manage to send mails to outlook/hotmail?
Am 11.07.21 um 19:39 schrieb Marcus Hoffmann via mailop: ... > > Original sending IP: 176.9.145.28 > New sender: 5.45.96.14 As others have already noted, Hetzner has a somewhat bad reputation. From my experience, this may somewhat be explained by their intransparent and subjectively ineffective abuse policies and implementation. Due to them being a german hoster and the mailservers under my management being located in Germany and having german users, I'm very reluctant to outright block them, but if they were in another country I'd be very inclined to do so. As it is generally not very effective to request more effective abuse management from the position of an abuse reporter, it would probably be something you as a customer (maybe in coordination with other Hetzner customers) could do. I know this is sadly a matter of being too big to be blocked, Microsoft (and to a lesser extent, Google) definitively belong into the same category and should themselves be blocked for inadequate abuse handling but still they can enforce their somewhat arbitrary rules on senders wanting to send their customers mail due to their sheer size. I would certainly love to have something that would force these (as well as Hetzner, OVH, DigitalOcean, etc.) to bring their abuse handling performance to a level matching the volume of e-mail sent by their users. Cheers, Hans-Martin ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] So how do you actually manage to send mails to outlook/hotmail?
On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 07:39:31PM +0200, Marcus Hoffmann via mailop wrote: > for context, I run a small mailserver, used by mainly me and a couple of > friends and famely. I also run a few webservices which sometimes send > transactional emails to people who sign up there. (Mainly a weblate instance > with around 150 or so users). I used to be in a similar situation in that I am using a VPS as a private email server which happened to be in a bad network neighbourhood, so any emails to Microsoft got blocked. I eventually managed to got the sending IP unblocked by providing proof that I am in full control of the sending IP address (and have nothing to do with any other IP addresses in the network neighbourhood) - basically I was asked to send them an invoice from my VPS provider sowing the IP address. Now emails to Microsoft seem to get to the Inbox. Maybe I was actually lucky that emails got completely blocked - I guess the case of emails being marked as spam are harder to argue than an outright block. Christof -- http://cmeerw.org sip:cmeerw at cmeerw.org mailto:cmeerw at cmeerw.org xmpp:cmeerw at cmeerw.org ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] So how do you actually manage to send mails to outlook/hotmail?
On Mon, 2021-07-12 at 00:11 +0200, Marcus Hoffmann via mailop wrote: > > Someone suggested routing emails to MS and google domains through Amazon > SES. Would that actually make things better? I'd suggest a more end-user friendly relay, like Duocircle or Dynu's relay service, who don't mess with your envelope sender address, but yes it would help. ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] So how do you actually manage to send mails to outlook/hotmail?
Hi Marcus I had a similar issue some time ago. Google uses some 'Domain Reputation' Woodoo. I used to operate an automated spam feedback loop from my spamtrap, under a specific hostname in my domain. One only used for those reports. Unfortunately, it looks like some 'abuse contact addresses' as reported by RIPE or abusix.org which use Gmail, flagged my reports as spam, pulling down the reputation not only of that single host and IP address, but of the whole 1st level domain it was attached to. And because this was a privately used domain with a handfull of email traffic per day, those few emails never made enough traffic for google to improve the reputation. Solution was: * Stopped that Feedback Loop so that would not keep pulling down the reputation of some rogue abuse contact flagged them as spam. * Send a couple of emails to some friends google email addresses and asked them specifically via other channel, to flag those emails as non spam. This fixed the Google reputation of my domain in a week or so. I guess there is not much more you can do. I attempted to contact the google abuse desk to discuss the issue and persuade them of the advantage to exempt ARF X-ARF and other messages types usually used to send spam evidence or logfiles from their spam-checking and also maybe detect if one of their email addresses is published as abuse contact @ RIPE or abusix.org and handle incoming emails accordingly. But as always ab...@google.com is /dev/null Mit freundlichen Grüssen -Benoît Panizzon- -- I m p r o W a r e A G-Leiter Commerce Kunden __ Zurlindenstrasse 29 Tel +41 61 826 93 00 CH-4133 PrattelnFax +41 61 826 93 01 Schweiz Web http://www.imp.ch __ ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] So how do you actually manage to send mails to outlook/hotmail?
On 2021-07-12 06:11:35 (+0800), Marcus Hoffmann via mailop wrote: On 11.07.21 23:27, John Levine wrote: Netcup isn't fabulous, but it's better than Hetzner. So, what would be even better then? (Netcup was just the next best available option here in DE. And well, the cheapest.) I've had very good experience with a VPS from Mythic Beasts in the UK. They also offer services in Amsterdam if you prefer to be hosted in Europe rather than on the island off the west coast. Their service works well and their support staff are amazing. Someone suggested routing emails to MS and google domains through Amazon SES. Would that actually make things better? It's worth a try. You still have to do a lot of work monitoring it. For a setup with a handful to a dozen users ... you have to wonder if it's worth it. Anecdata: after helping the last of my paying email customers (and my parents!) migrate to Fastmail, I moved my own email to them a couple of months ago too. I do not miss having conversations with people about email from my server being filed as spam. Google and Microsoft have become large enough that they can get away with simply not caring about small operations with a few dozen users. They could drop all the email from low-volume senders outright and it would make no difference at all. This centralisation is bad for everybody. There is no point in tiny operators tilting at the windmill though. The windmill doesn't even notice. To keep these large internet conglomerates at least slightly honest, we need more, somewhat larger, email businesses like Fastmail. If enough of them poach enough users from Google and Microsoft, maybe there can be space for smaller operators to thrive again too. I'm not holding my breath though. (Note: I have no stake in Fastmail or Mythic Beasts. I am merely a happy paying customer.) Philip -- Philip Paeps Senior Reality Engineer Alternative Enterprises ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] So how do you actually manage to send mails to outlook/hotmail?
On Mon, 12 Jul 2021, Marcus Hoffmann wrote: (Others at Hetzner seem to do fine. I really do not get the whole rating IP neighborhoods thing, but let's not get into that again. I can't change it anyway.) I can only speak for myself, but I have all of Hetzner's IPs routed into the spam trap, and I poke holes on the rare occasion that one of my users reports missing mail they care about. I suppose that if you send enough mail that the recepients notice they are missing, you can get exceptions added. Seems like a lot of work. Netcup isn't fabulous, but it's better than Hetzner. So, what would be even better then? (Netcup was just the next best available option here in DE. And well, the cheapest.) Someone suggested routing emails to MS and google domains through Amazon SES. Would that actually make things better? It might, Amazon does some fairly sophisticated filtering. But if your mail from Netcup works, you might as well stick with that. Regards, John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] So how do you actually manage to send mails to outlook/hotmail?
On 11.07.21 23:27, John Levine wrote: It appears that Marcus Hoffmann via mailop said: I spent the whole weekend (again) trying to get mails from my server not to be marked as spam by Google and Microsoft. You're at Hetzner, so it's a losing battle. You're in a bad neighborhood. So I've heard on this list before, yes. (Others at Hetzner seem to do fine. I really do not get the whole rating IP neighborhoods thing, but let's not get into that again. I can't change it anyway.) After trying about everything under the sun I ended up switching the sending IP from the one I have had sole control over in the last 5 or so years to a newly rented VPS. This seemed to dramatically improve google opinion of me. (The old IP never sent spam in the last 5 years, it is not and never was (in that timeframe) listed on any blocklist). Netcup isn't fabulous, but it's better than Hetzner. So, what would be even better then? (Netcup was just the next best available option here in DE. And well, the cheapest.) Someone suggested routing emails to MS and google domains through Amazon SES. Would that actually make things better? Marcus R's, John Original sending IP: 176.9.145.28 New sender: 5.45.96.14 ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] So how do you actually manage to send mails to outlook/hotmail?
Am 11.07.21 um 19:39 schrieb Marcus Hoffmann via mailop: > Which leads me to the question: What on earth would I need to do to be able > to send emails to MS controlled > mailservers which people will actually read? One does not simply send mails to outlook/hotmail Sorry, could not resist. Hoping I'll be forgiven eventually. Cheers, Hans-Martin ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] So how do you actually manage to send mails to outlook/hotmail?
It appears that Marcus Hoffmann via mailop said: >I spent the whole weekend (again) trying to get mails from my server not >to be marked as spam by Google and Microsoft. You're at Hetzner, so it's a losing battle. You're in a bad neighborhood. >After trying about everything under the sun I ended up switching the >sending IP from the one I have had sole control over in the last 5 or so >years to a newly rented VPS. This seemed to dramatically improve google >opinion of me. (The old IP never sent spam in the last 5 years, it is >not and never was (in that timeframe) listed on any blocklist). Netcup isn't fabulous, but it's better than Hetzner. R's, John >Original sending IP: 176.9.145.28 >New sender: 5.45.96.14 ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] So how do you actually manage to send mails to outlook/hotmail?
> If your correspondent opens a ticket with MS and says "I want to get email from Marcus and it goes into spam and I don't think it should", they may put mitigation in for you. It has less effect if you are the one opening the ticket though. What ticket form would these people need to fill out? I'm curious about this aspect. On Sun, Jul 11, 2021 at 1:10 PM Mike Reed via mailop wrote: > Hi Marcus, > > Is this mail ending up in spam folders or never appearing to your > correspondents at all? > > It helps a lot if you can get your correspondents to mark the emails from > you as "not spam" in their apps. You might learn some additional > information if you can get some to send back the headers. > > If your correspondent opens a ticket with MS and says "I want to get email > from Marcus and it goes into spam and I don't think it should", they may > put mitigation in for you. It has less effect if you are the one opening > the ticket though. > > Best of luck, > Mike > ___ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org > https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop > ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] So how do you actually manage to send mails to outlook/hotmail?
Hi Marcus, Is this mail ending up in spam folders or never appearing to your correspondents at all? It helps a lot if you can get your correspondents to mark the emails from you as "not spam" in their apps. You might learn some additional information if you can get some to send back the headers. If your correspondent opens a ticket with MS and says "I want to get email from Marcus and it goes into spam and I don't think it should", they may put mitigation in for you. It has less effect if you are the one opening the ticket though. Best of luck, Mike ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
