VIRGIL: Aeneid Jokes
Many thanks to Neven for Nicholas Modrussiensiensis; but if I may expand on my own dissertation, where I had occasion to comment on 'facetiis' at Gellius 2. 23. 3 'ita Graecarum, quas aemulari nequiuerunt, facetiis atque luminibus obsolescunt' [i.e. Roman comedies are not a patch on the Greek originals]: To the English reader _facetus_ is a 'faux ami': it implied not schoolboyishness but polished elegance; not always even humour; cf. Quintilian 6.3.20: "Facetum quoque non tantum citca ridicula opinor consistere; neque enim diceret Horatius facetum carminis genus concessum esse Vergilio. Decoris hanc magis et excultae cuiusdam elegantiae appellationem puto. Ideoque in epistulis Cicero haec Bruti refert uerba: "ne illi sunt pedes faceti ac +deliciis ingredienti mollius+ [text corrupt, but reference is to mincing gait]." Quod conuenit cum illo Horatiano "molle atque facetum". It is allied to _urbanitas_; cf. Catullus 36. 19 'pleni ruris et inficetiarum', 22. 14 'idem infaceto est infacetior rure'. To be sure a sense of humour is not excluded (see Fordyce on Catullus 43. 8), but 'hoc etiam animaduertendum est, non esse omnia ridicula faceta' (Cicero, _De oratore_ 2. 251). In Horace, if 'facetum' is to be translated 'witty', let it be in the eighteenth-century sense rather than the twentieth. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: VERGIL: ekphrasis in Book VI
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Clare Studwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >I brought up this question about a week ago about the ekphrasis in Book VI >(lines 20-36) of Vergil's Aeneid. Unfortunately I received NO responses. If >you have any opinion on the role of this ekphrasis on the temple doors which >Daedalus created, please let me know. > >Thanks. Clare I had been meaning to find a moment to think about the passage, but for the time being: a journey through the air counterpoises one to the underworld; and the ekphrasis before this major episode recalls that before another, in Carthage. Quite inadequate, but perhaps it will stimulate someone else, like the crystal that seeds a supersaturated solution into precipitating. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: VERGIL: ekphrasis in Book VI
Daedalus is like Aeneas: they have both crossed the seas to get to Cumae and suffered loss on the way. Daedalus is like Vergil: they both depict 'error' and pity 'magnum reginae amorem'. The doors at the start of book 6 are related to the gates at the end. There is a new book by Michael Punam called 'Vergil's Epic Designs' (YaleUP 1998); it has a chapter on Daedalus. Damien Nelis. -- >From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: VIRGIL: VERGIL: ekphrasis in Book VI >Date: Mon, Mar 8, 1999, 10:02 > >In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Clare >Studwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >>I brought up this question about a week ago about the ekphrasis in Book VI >>(lines 20-36) of Vergil's Aeneid. Unfortunately I received NO responses. If >>you have any opinion on the role of this ekphrasis on the temple doors which >>Daedalus created, please let me know. >> >>Thanks. Clare > >I had been meaning to find a moment to think about the passage, but for >the time being: a journey through the air counterpoises one to the >underworld; and the ekphrasis before this major episode recalls that >before another, in Carthage. Quite inadequate, but perhaps it will >stimulate someone else, like the crystal that seeds a supersaturated >solution into precipitating. > >Leofranc Holford-Strevens >*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* > >Leofranc Holford-Strevens >67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone >Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? >OX2 6EJ > >tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 >email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) > >*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* >--- >To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. >Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message >"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You >can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: discussion group policies
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 16:34:42 -0500 (EST) From: "James M. Pfundstein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> If you want to know what you're in for before you join, there are archives of the CLASSICS-L list (along with some others) at http://omega.cohums.ohio-state.edu:8080/hyper-lists/ Maria Pantelia's awesome site "Electronic Resources for Classicists" has a page devoted to on-line discussion groups: http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~tlg/index/listservs.html JMP --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Aeneid Jokes
Aeneid 6.413 "ingentem Aenean" prompted Austin to write: "Virgil smiles at the thought of the big solid man taken on board the flimsy craft, a most unghostly passenger." I remember also finding a good deal of amusement in the funeral games of Book 5, which I read in Dryden's translation. Simon Cauchi, Freelance Editor and Indexer Hamilton, New Zealand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
RE: VIRGIL: Aeneid Jokes
This was a joke that had already been made in Aristophanes' Frogs with reference to Heracles crossing the Styx on Charon's boat. More humour in Vergil "invitus, regina, tuo de litore cessi" (Bk 6) reference to Catullus' Lock of Berenice "invitus, regina, tuo de cervice cessi", a singularly incongruous intertextualism at a singularly inapposite moment. -Original Message- From: Simon Cauchi [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 08, 1999 6:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:VIRGIL: Aeneid Jokes Aeneid 6.413 "ingentem Aenean" prompted Austin to write: "Virgil smiles at the thought of the big solid man taken on board the flimsy craft, a most unghostly passenger." I remember also finding a good deal of amusement in the funeral games of Book 5, which I read in Dryden's translation. Simon Cauchi, Freelance Editor and Indexer Hamilton, New Zealand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: VERGIL: ekphrasis in Book VI
The two similarities (Daedalus-Aeneas/Daedalus-Virgil) are linked by the lines 'ipse ratem nocturnis rexit in undis' (of Aeneas, V 868) and 'ipse dolos tecti ambagesque resolvit, caeca regens filo vestigia' (of Daedalus, VI, 29). The hero and the artist/poet 'take personal charge' in situations of great danger. The poet accepts grave responsibilities: but does he, when we encounter the Gates which lead from the dream which he creates and which correspond to Daedalus' great doors, finally 'resolve the ambiguities?'. - Martin Hughes On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, D P Nelis wrote: > Daedalus is like Aeneas: they have both crossed the seas to get to Cumae and > suffered loss on the way. > Daedalus is like Vergil: they both depict 'error' and pity 'magnum reginae > amorem'. > The doors at the start of book 6 are related to the gates at the end. > There is a new book by Michael Punam called 'Vergil's Epic Designs' (YaleUP > 1998); it has a chapter on Daedalus. > Damien Nelis. > > -- > >From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: Re: VIRGIL: VERGIL: ekphrasis in Book VI > >Date: Mon, Mar 8, 1999, 10:02 > > > > >In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Clare > >Studwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes > >>I brought up this question about a week ago about the ekphrasis in Book VI > >>(lines 20-36) of Vergil's Aeneid. Unfortunately I received NO responses. > >>If > >>you have any opinion on the role of this ekphrasis on the temple doors > >>which > >>Daedalus created, please let me know. > >> > >>Thanks. Clare > > > >I had been meaning to find a moment to think about the passage, but for > >the time being: a journey through the air counterpoises one to the > >underworld; and the ekphrasis before this major episode recalls that > >before another, in Carthage. Quite inadequate, but perhaps it will > >stimulate someone else, like the crystal that seeds a supersaturated > >solution into precipitating. > > > >Leofranc Holford-Strevens > >*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* > > > >Leofranc Holford-Strevens > >67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone > >Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? > >OX2 6EJ > > > >tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 > >email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) > > > >*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* > >--- > >To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > >Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > >"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > >can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > > > --- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
RE: VIRGIL: VERGIL: ekphrasis in Book VI
I've also been struck by this passage but never been able to come to a suitable explanation. Looking at the passage again, the language reminds me of Georgics IV "labor...et inextricabilis error" (quite a curious phrasing) "magnum reginae sed enim miseratus amorem"; Daedalus in the labyrinth is a similar situation to Aeneas in the Underworld but also Orpheus in the Underworld (even more so, in the retracing steps); this passage finishes with a sacrifice similar to the one at the end of the Georgics. Is there a Hellenistic treatment of the Daedalus story? We seem to be very much in Hellenistic / Alexandrian territory here, with the daughters of Cecrops (21), Ariadne (23) and Pasiphae (24). Daedalus = Vergil? V. interesting. What does Michael Punam have to say about this passage? The observation about the doors relating to the ivory gates is a good one and must be right. Maybe this passage casts some light on the meaning of the ivory gates. This is a great topic - I'm surprised no-one replied to Clare earlier. And while we're at it, does anyone have any views on the 64 million dollar question i.e. the golden bough and the ivory gates? I remember being quite taken with West's article where the golden bough reflected the "aureos ramos" of Plato's poetry in Meleager's garland. In that context, it's notable that "poluchromatos" (cp. "discolor" 6.204) is a Greek hapax legomenon, according to a Hellenistic lexicographer, appearing in ... you guessed it ... Plato. More questions than answers! I apologise. Adrian -Original Message- From: D P Nelis [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 08, 1999 10:32 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:Re: VIRGIL: VERGIL: ekphrasis in Book VI Daedalus is like Aeneas: they have both crossed the seas to get to Cumae and suffered loss on the way. Daedalus is like Vergil: they both depict 'error' and pity 'magnum reginae amorem'. The doors at the start of book 6 are related to the gates at the end. There is a new book by Michael Punam called 'Vergil's Epic Designs' (YaleUP 1998); it has a chapter on Daedalus. Damien Nelis. -- >From: Leofranc Holford-Strevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: VIRGIL: VERGIL: ekphrasis in Book VI >Date: Mon, Mar 8, 1999, 10:02 > >In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Clare >Studwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >>I brought up this question about a week ago about the ekphrasis in Book VI >>(lines 20-36) of Vergil's Aeneid. Unfortunately I received NO responses. If >>you have any opinion on the role of this ekphrasis on the temple doors which >>Daedalus created, please let me know. >> >>Thanks. Clare > >I had been meaning to find a moment to think about the passage, but for >the time being: a journey through the air counterpoises one to the >underworld; and the ekphrasis before this major episode recalls that >before another, in Carthage. Quite inadequate, but perhaps it will >stimulate someone else, like the crystal that seeds a supersaturated >solution into precipitating. > >Leofranc Holford-Strevens >*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* > >Leofranc Holford-Strevens >67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone >Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? >OX2 6EJ > >tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 >email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) > >*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* >--- >To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. >Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message >"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You >can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Aeneid Jokes
On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Leofranc Holford-Strevens wrote (in part): > > To the English reader _facetus_ is a 'faux ami': it implied not > schoolboyishness but polished elegance; not always even humour; cf. > Quintilian 6.3.20: "Facetum quoque non tantum citca ridicula opinor > consistere; neque enim diceret Horatius facetum carminis genus concessum > esse Vergilio. Decoris hanc magis et excultae cuiusdam elegantiae > appellationem puto. Ideoque in epistulis Cicero haec Bruti refert uerba: > "ne illi sunt pedes faceti ac +deliciis ingredienti mollius+ [text > corrupt, but reference is to mincing gait]." Quod conuenit cum illo > Horatiano "molle atque facetum". It is allied to _urbanitas_; cf. > Catullus 36. 19 'pleni ruris et inficetiarum', 22. 14 'idem infaceto est > infacetior rure'. To be sure a sense of humour is not excluded (see > Fordyce on Catullus 43. 8), but 'hoc etiam animaduertendum est, non esse > omnia ridicula faceta' (Cicero, _De oratore_ 2. 251). > > In Horace, if 'facetum' is to be translated 'witty', let it be in the > eighteenth-century sense rather than the twentieth. I'd be glad to hear more on this, but I'm not sure the evidence you've cited satisfies me. The fact that not all birds are chickens does not mean that chickens are not birds. And the Quintilian quote is from a longer passage where he is talking about various types of humor. In this view, when Quintilian contrasts "facetus" with "ridiculus" he is contrasting two different types of humor, as opposed to contrasting what is humorous with what is non humorous, e.g. "iocum vero id accipimus quod est contrarium serio" (Quintilian, I.O., 6.3.21). JMP --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: VERGIL: ekphrasis in Book VI
Daedalus = Virgil? Both are cunning creators, manipulators of their respective materials with the purpose of causing unusual effects. Both are practitioners of the art of techne. Virgil must have enjoyed making the comparison with himself -- > From: Adrian Pay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' > Subject: RE: VIRGIL: VERGIL: ekphrasis in Book VI > Date: Monday, March 08, 1999 9:20 PM > > I've also been struck by this passage but never been able to come to a > suitable explanation. Looking at the passage again, the language reminds me > of Georgics IV "labor...et inextricabilis error" (quite a curious phrasing) > "magnum reginae sed enim miseratus amorem"; Daedalus in the labyrinth is a > similar situation to Aeneas in the Underworld but also Orpheus in the > Underworld (even more so, in the retracing steps); this passage finishes > with a sacrifice similar to the one at the end of the Georgics. > > Is there a Hellenistic treatment of the Daedalus story? We seem to be very > much in Hellenistic / Alexandrian territory here, with the daughters of > Cecrops (21), Ariadne (23) and Pasiphae (24). > > Daedalus = Vergil? V. interesting. > > What does Michael Punam have to say about this passage? The observation > about the doors relating to the ivory gates is a good one and must be > right. Maybe this passage casts some light on the meaning of the ivory > gates. > > This is a great topic - I'm surprised no-one replied to Clare earlier. > > And while we're at it, does anyone have any views on the 64 million dollar > question i.e. the golden bough and the ivory gates? I remember being quite > taken with West's article where the golden bough reflected the "aureos > ramos" of Plato's poetry in Meleager's garland. In that context, it's > notable that "poluchromatos" (cp. "discolor" 6.204) is a Greek hapax > legomenon, according to a Hellenistic lexicographer, appearing in ... you > guessed it ... Plato. > > More questions than answers! I apologise. > > Adrian > --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: REPLY REQUIRED: The Classics Pages Subscription Verify (fwd)
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Re: VIRGIL: Aeneid Jokes
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, James M. Pfundstein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >On Mon, 8 Mar 1999, Leofranc Holford-Strevens wrote (in part): > >> >> To the English reader _facetus_ is a 'faux ami': it implied not >> schoolboyishness but polished elegance; not always even humour; cf. >> Quintilian 6.3.20: "Facetum quoque non tantum citca ridicula opinor >> consistere; neque enim diceret Horatius facetum carminis genus concessum >> esse Vergilio. Decoris hanc magis et excultae cuiusdam elegantiae >> appellationem puto. Ideoque in epistulis Cicero haec Bruti refert uerba: >> "ne illi sunt pedes faceti ac +deliciis ingredienti mollius+ [text >> corrupt, but reference is to mincing gait]." Quod conuenit cum illo >> Horatiano "molle atque facetum". It is allied to _urbanitas_; cf. >> Catullus 36. 19 'pleni ruris et inficetiarum', 22. 14 'idem infaceto est >> infacetior rure'. To be sure a sense of humour is not excluded (see >> Fordyce on Catullus 43. 8), but 'hoc etiam animaduertendum est, non esse >> omnia ridicula faceta' (Cicero, _De oratore_ 2. 251). >> >> In Horace, if 'facetum' is to be translated 'witty', let it be in the >> eighteenth-century sense rather than the twentieth. > >I'd be glad to hear more on this, but I'm not sure the evidence you've >cited satisfies me. The fact that not all birds are chickens does not mean >that chickens are not birds. And the Quintilian quote is from a longer >passage where he is talking about various types of humor. In this view, >when Quintilian contrasts "facetus" with "ridiculus" he is contrasting two >different types of humor, as opposed to contrasting what is humorous with >what is non humorous, e.g. "iocum vero id accipimus quod est contrarium >serio" (Quintilian, I.O., 6.3.21). > >JMP > My point was that _facetus_ is not 'facetious', and not always 'humorous'; no one has humorous or witty feet, and if it's jokes you want, Latin comedy can beat Menander any day. I was not saying that humour is excluded; there is indeed, as has been observed, not a little humour in the funeral games for Anchises, though of a somewhat Dingley- Dellish nature (Statius, who knew these things from the inside, sets him to rights in _Thebaid_ 6 just as he sets Horace to rights on Pindaric metre in _Silvae_ 5.3_). LAH-S *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
RE: VIRGIL: Aeneid Jokes
>More humour in Vergil "invitus, regina, tuo de litore cessi" (Bk 6) >reference to Catullus' Lock of Berenice "invitus, regina, tuo de cervice >cessi", a singularly incongruous intertextualism at a singularly inapposite >moment. I have always thought "invitus, regina" to be as bad as W. S. Gilbert's "a thing of shreds and patches". But a closer analogy would be if The Yeoman of the Guard were an Elizabethan operetta and Hamlet a 19th cent. tragedy, so that we would find fault with Shakespeare's line rather than Gilbert's. Or rather, as Fletcher puts it better, the sense of incongruity is "much as we should feel if we came upon a line from Pope's Rape of the Lock in Keats' Hyperion". I don't think Virgil intended the line to be humorous, though. Despite the source from which it is taken, the effect is pathetic (I mean, pathos is the intended effect). Isn't it? Aeneas does express a sense of desperation in this speech, and there's always something a bit ridiculous about any male -- let alone an epic hero -- making excuses and vowing he had no choice in the matter. But I suspect there is a bimillennial cultural gulf here (as in so much else to do with the Aeneid), and that interpretation is necessarily uncertain. Simon Cauchi, Freelance Editor and Indexer Hamilton, New Zealand <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
RE: VIRGIL: VERGIL: ekphrasis in Book VI
>
>And while we're at it, does anyone have any views on the 64 million dollar
>question i.e. the golden bough and the ivory gates? I remember being quite
>taken with West's article where the golden bough reflected the "aureos
>ramos" of Plato's poetry in Meleager's garland. In that context, it's
>notable that "poluchromatos" (cp. "discolor" 6.204) is a Greek hapax
>legomenon, according to a Hellenistic lexicographer, appearing in ... you
>guessed it ... Plato.
>
As regards the problem of the ivory gates, I wish to draw attention to an
article written by myself and a colleague ("A Note on Aeneid 6.893-8", in:
Eranos 94, 1996, pp 21-28), where we demonstrate that there are good
reasons to assume that that passage cannot have been written for that
context originally. So the passage with the ivory gates does not primarily
require interpretation, but raises a more fundamental question, namely the
soundness of the received text.
Docent Arne Jönsson
Klassiska institutionen
Sölvegatan 2
S-223 62 LUND
Sweden
Tel: + 46 (0)46 222 34 23
Fax: + 46 (0)46 222 42 27
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