Re: VIRGIL: Caesar novelised
Memo Subjecte: VIRGIL: Caesar novelised1/3/00 08:47 For those of us who came in late, can someone please explain the name "Mantovani?" George (Little Latin, less Greek) Heidekat On 12/23/99, Charles Skallerud wrote: The whole series is nicely abridged on tape for those who may not have time to read all of it. There is also an unabridged version of one or two volumes. Charles Skallerud - Original Message - From: M W Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, December 23, 1999 7:14 AM Subject: VIRGIL: Caesar novelised > For a train journey recently I bought a copy of 'Caesar' by Colleen > McCullough, well known for 'The Thorn Birds'. I thought that it was a > rather creditable and very well researched presentation of part of the > history on which V comments, so I commend it to you! The general line is > the Sallustian one in which there must be some truth, describing an > aristocracy corrupted by greed and the availability of imperial loot, with > the gossipy elements of Cicero's letters played up to give the characters > life. V's sense of Pompey and Caesar as genuinely 'concordes animae' is > endorsed. Vercingetorix, the rebellious Gaul, tries to persuade Caesar > that the Romans need a king: so Caesar is presented as an > imperialist, originally enlightened, eventually forcing on his own people > the very values which he had at first considered barbaric. I'd think that > this view underplays the 'civilised' monarchism of the Greeks, which must > have influenced both Caesar and V, as Cairns points out in 'V's Augustan > Epic'. At any rate, McCullough's novel reminded me of how many strong and > vivid characters, real source material for a great epic, were involved in > the Fall of the Republic. I've missed taking part in Mantovano discussion > for a month or two: we've had a tough term at Durham University. May I > wish everyone a pleasant Year 2000? - Martin Hughes > > --- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub > --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Caesar novelised
George (Little Latin, less Greek) Heidekat schrieb: > Memo Subjecte: VIRGIL: Caesar novelised1/3/00 08:47 > For those of us who came in late, can someone please explain the name > "Mantovani?" for those of us who come in now, can you please explain where you found the name "Mantovani"? Mantova is Maro's birthplace, "Mantua me genuit..." grusz, hansz --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Re: Maro's birthplace
Memo Subjecte: Maro's birthplace 1/3/00 10:06 Danke. On 1/3/00, hans.uma.zimmermann wrote: George (Little Latin, less Greek) Heidekat schrieb: > Memo Subjecte: VIRGIL: Caesar novelised1/3/00 08:47 > For those of us who came in late, can someone please explain the name > "Mantovani?" for those of us who come in now, can you please explain where you found the name "Mantovani"? Mantova is Maro's birthplace, "Mantua me genuit..." grusz, hansz --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Aeneid 4.11
I've been scratching my head over the use of "quem" in line 11 of Aeneid 4. The passage: "Anna soror, quae me suspensam insomnia terrent! Quis novus hic nostris successit sedibus hospes, 10 quem sese ore ferens, quam forti pectore et armis!" I'm taking "quae" in line 9 as an interrogative adjective in an exclamation; "Quis" as interrogative pronoun with exclamatory force; "quam" as an exclamatory; the "quem" I don't see...Why accusative? Is it another interrogative adjective? Translations seem to have it go with "ore", but it's not registering...Any comments would be sincerely appreciated. JF --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Aeneid 4.11
James E. Ferguson schrieb: > I've been scratching my head over the use of "quem" in line 11 of Aeneid 4. > The passage: > > "Anna soror, quae me suspensam insomnia terrent! > Quis novus hic nostris successit sedibus hospes, 10 > quem sese ore ferens, quam forti pectore et armis!" > > I'm taking "quae" in line 9 as an interrogative adjective in an > exclamation; "Quis" as interrogative pronoun with exclamatory force; > "quam" as an exclamatory; the "quem" isn't it parallel in its function to the other interrogative pronouns; also exclamatory? I think, it is a praedicativum, congruent with the (reflexive) object "sese": "as what kind of man (akk., as whom) he is showing himself with his face?", - (excuse my English, in German: "Als was für einen Mann stellt er sich durch sein Gesicht dar, als was für einen Menschen zeigt er sich durch seinen Blick" - ) It is interesting, that Maro takes a praedicative object, not the praedicative subject in this case: so it is more the result at the end of "se ferre", a result that moves Dido, a kind of the hero's action and behaviour, impressing Dido's view. grusz, hansz http://home.t-online.de/home/03581413454/ekloga4.htm I don't see...Why accusative? Is it > another interrogative adjective? Translations seem to have it go with > "ore", but it's not registering...Any comments would be sincerely > appreciated. > > JF > > > --- > To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. > Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message > "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You > can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: Aeneid 4.11
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, James E. Ferguson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes >I've been scratching my head over the use of "quem" in line 11 of Aeneid 4. >The passage: > >"Anna soror, quae me suspensam insomnia terrent! >Quis novus hic nostris successit sedibus hospes, 10 >quem sese ore ferens, quam forti pectore et armis!" > >I'm taking "quae" in line 9 as an interrogative adjective in an >exclamation; "Quis" as interrogative pronoun with exclamatory force; >"quam" as an exclamatory; the "quem" I don't see...Why accusative? Predicative in agreement with 'sese': literally, 'as what a man bearing himself in countenance', i.e. (as Tamburlaine says of Theridamas) 'With what a majesty he rears his looks'; I should thought that unlike the others it is a pure exclamation parallel to 'quam forti pectore et armis'. Leofranc Holford-Strevens *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* Leofranc Holford-Strevens 67 St Bernard's Road usque adeone Oxford scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter? OX2 6EJ tel. +44 (0)1865 552808(home)/267865(work) fax +44 (0)1865 512237 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) *_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_*_* --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
VIRGIL: Aenied 6.146 & 6.210-11: si te fata vocant.
Hello All, I have a question concerning two passages in Bk. 6 of the Aeneid. At 6.125-155, Aeneas is told by the prophetess that, in order to descend into the underworld, he must do two things: he must give proper burial to Misenus, and he must tear a branch from the golden bough as an offering for Proserpina. It is Aeneas' execution of the second of these two tasks which concerns me. At 6.146-8, it is declared by the prophetess that one of two outcomes will result from any attempt to tear a branch from the bough: if Aeneas is truly called by the Fates, the branch will come easily and of it's own accord, otherwise no amount of stength or steel will separate branch from bough: '...namque ipse volens facilisque sequetur, si te fata vocant; aliter non viribus ullis vincere nec duro poteris convellere ferro.'(146-8) However, when Aeneas plucks the branch from the bough, it resists: 'corripit Aeneas extemplo avidusque refringit cunctantem...' (210-211) Why is this, and what does this mean when Aeneas is so insistantly called by the Fates throughout the poem? (I apologise in case this is a point which has drawn a lot of commentary, and if anyone could direct me to comments which they feel throw helpful light on the episode, I would appreciate it.) I know that R.D. Williams (1972) dismissed the contradiction by suggesting that the resistance described would be natural in the action of removing a branch from a plant with a pliant stem, but this answer seems to value biological exactitude over the talismanic function of the bough. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Cheers, P.A. Roche From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue Jan 11 13:07:40 2000 >From mantovano-returns Mon Jan 10 16:14:37 2000 Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id QAA15132; Mon, 10 Jan 2000 16:14:37 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: wilsoninet.com: Host musi46.musi.macalester.edu [141.140.43.46] claimed to be oldm113-13116 Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2000 16:32:01 -0600 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: VIRGIL: Aeneid 4.11 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-UIDL: de3e68e2f497de6a6bdfd8f75a5e1b5c << message forwarded by listowner, David Wilson-Okamura >> From: "Paul O. Wendland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 16:47:23 -0600 > I've been scratching my head over the use of "quem" in line 11 of > Aeneid 4. > The passage: > > "Anna soror, quae me suspensam insomnia terrent! > Quis novus hic nostris successit sedibus hospes, 10 > quem sese ore ferens, quam forti pectore et armis!" Quem: accusative of interrogative pronoun quis, quid: m/f sg. (or perhaps as interr. adj. with 'vir' understood). in apposition to sese. "Bearing himself in his expression as whom?" (or "Bearing himself in his expression as what sort of man?") ore ferre acc. to Oxford is idiomatic "to exhibit or display in one's features or expression" Seems a difficult expression to me, too, though its sense isn't hard to scan. Must be something like, "How extraordinarily dignified he looks!" Paul Wendland --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
