Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
David: I was one of those history-challenged high school, and then college, Virgil students and I vote for the all-at-once. After college, I read Syme's Roman Revolution and Scullard's From the Gracchi to Nero, and they opened up whole new dimensions in the text of the Aeneid for me. Of course, Syme isn't something you can speed through as a quick read, though. Even a 25-page down-and-dirty summary of the history, however, would add greatly to the richness of the experience. In Latin the poetry can hypnotize without assistance; a translation may need a background of political tensions to create the same kind of excitement as the Odyssey creates. Once one understands the political environment, the Aeneid can be as interesting for what it does not say as for what it does say: an exercise in subtlety and obliqueness. Subtlety is not the first thing that comes to my mind when I think of the Odyssey; they are useful counterpoints in this regard. - Oliver Metzger - Original Message - From: David Wilson-Okamura [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 10:12 AM Subject: Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation On Virgil and Tolkien: what can be said has now been said. Back, then, to the original question, of how to teach the Aeneid in translation. Do you give the history all at once, before starting the poem, or do you let it dribble out as needed? I confess to being a dribbler, but as I have mentioned earlier, I don't think I have been teaching the poem very effectively. --- David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] East Carolina UniversityVirgil reception, discussion, documents, c --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
RE: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
At 10:28 PM 1/18/2004 -, Francis Browne wrote: I am sure that my own experience is that of many. It is delight in poetry and music that has often led me to learn about the historical background rather than historical study leading to enjoyment of a work of art. Delight in the poetry of Dante leads to exploration of Italian history and medieval philosophy ( and incidentally a different approach to the narrative skills of Virgil, Ovid, Lucan and Statius). Delight in Bach leads to a study of the Germany of his time and the Lutheran tradition. It is of course a question of emphasis . Background knowledge gained leads to deeper appreciation, but delight in the poetry remains primary and the inspiration for further study. You are right. As a teacher, I am usually most excited about the things that I am learning about the poem _right now_. Thus, it is hard for me to talk about the fall of Troy (in bk. 2) without saying something about the decline of the Republic, which comes about, in Virgil's vision, not by the deeds of one man, but by competition and by dint of little wounds inflicted over time: ac ueluti summis antiquam in montibus ornum cum ferro accisam crebrisque bipennibus instant eruere agricolae _certatim_, illa usque minatur et tremefacta comam concusso uertice nutat, _uulneribus donec paulatim euicta_ supremum congemuit traxitque iugis auulsa ruinam. (Aen. 2.626ff.) This, I am tempted to say, is what bk. 2 is really about. But when I was eighteen, I didn't know or see any of this. What moved me then were the falling star and the omen of fire and, at the end of the book, going up into the mountains. To me, then, Virgil was the great romantic poet. And I am not at all confident that, in moving from a romantic appreciation to a historical appreciation, I am somehow closer to the poet's heart. Knowing some of the history, I think I see more of the heart. But the historical chamber of that heart is not, so far as I can tell, more real than the romantic one. For us, it is more work to discern the historical chamber, and we are tempted, because it has cost us so much effort, to infer that what is secret (from us) was also sacred (for Virgil). This may be an illusion. --- David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] East Carolina UniversityVirgil reception, discussion, documents, c --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
On Virgil and Tolkien: what can be said has now been said. Back, then, to the original question, of how to teach the Aeneid in translation. Do you give the history all at once, before starting the poem, or do you let it dribble out as needed? I confess to being a dribbler, but as I have mentioned earlier, I don't think I have been teaching the poem very effectively. --- David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] East Carolina UniversityVirgil reception, discussion, documents, c --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message unsubscribe mantovano in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
am Aeneidos cum principiis artis poeticae tomporum poetae et genuinam naturampoematis totius: recusationes a Vergilio factae cum ab Augusto iuberetur ut poema de Augustocomponeret (in Georgicis, cum Horatio comparatis); ergo lectura fiet locorum celeberrimorum Aeneidos (totus liber IV latine; pars lib. II Latine; pars lib. VI Latine; pars. lib. XI Latine (XI ut musa iocosa in lucem veniat secundum ea quae dixit s. v. "Comico Stile" doctissimus R. B. Lloyd in Enciclopedia Virgiliana et in "Humor in the Aeneid", Class. Journ. 72). In iis legendis, volo ut discipuli, ante omnia gaudeant: vere dicit nostra Helen, quom de pulchritudine loquitur! Sed in gaudendo interea perpotent "amarum/absinthi laticem" (ut ait Lucretius noster!), id est bene comprehendant Aeneidem esse creaturam tam diversam ab Iliade et Odyssea: quom scrutetur diligentissime animum humanum (feminarum praesertim, ducibus Euripide et Apollonio in lib. IV), quom doctrinam exhibeat philologorum, quom elegantiam et argutiam aliquando Alexandrinorum. Nec totum de Aeneide dici potest discipulis et hoc meo iudicio satis est ut respondeam ad unam quaestionem ab iis positam: sit Aeneis genuina an non! Interim melius de Maecenate dicemus (etsi iam diximus cum de Horatio locuti sumus), deque Dante Alighieri, deque Homero - ducibus Knauer et Klingner. Sed Vergilium volo meos discipulos meos legere ut Vergilium cognoscant: de Homero dicemus quod ad Vergilianam imitationem spectet, sed Homerum iam legimus ante, nec cum Vergilio; et idem de Dante Alighieri (qui Tolkien certe non est!): maximus et sublimis poeta, cum Vergilio aliquando comparabo (infandum, regina, iubes renovare dolorem... "Tu vuoi ch'io rinnovelli sì disperato dolor...?"; aut librum VI ex. gratia). Sed Dante, quem ego amo ita ut Vergilium,alio tempore, nec mecum legent discipuli mei. Aliter,timeam ne discipuli credant Dante iisdem temporibus vixisse quibus Homero et Dante, aut non bene sciant Aliud esse opera Homeri et Dantis, aliud Vergilii, nec extare ullum epicum heroa, nisi quem poeta recreat temporibus moribusque suis aptum, ullum epicum stilum nisi quem tempora et artis poeticae progressio volunt. Et reveraquamdiffert vergilianus heros ab homericis! Saepissime quod nos "anti-eroe" vocamus iste videtur (nec heros vocatur qui coniugem in flammis linquit, qui a femina ab undis tractus denuo eam linquit...et hi novi mores Apollonii sunt!); et certe mores et animum exhibetquam "mutatos ab illis"! Astu et fraus Ulixis certe in Aenea non sunt... Grates tibi plurimas ago, quoniam - quamquam tam bellicosus seditiosusque fuissem - mihi scripsisti. Dic mihi, quaeso, magis urbane loquens, si inter nos hoc Foro liceat loqui. Vale From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 10:12:19 -0500 On Virgil and Tolkien: what can be said has now been said. Back, then, to the original question, of how to teach the Aeneid in translation. Do you give the history all at once, before starting the poem, or do you let it dribble out as needed? I confess to being a dribbler, but as I have mentioned earlier, I don't think I have been teaching the poem very effectively. --- David Wilson-Okamurahttp://virgil.org[EMAIL PROTECTED] East Carolina UniversityVirgil reception, discussion, documents, c --- --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub Expand your wine savvy and get some great new recipes at MSN Wine. --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
RE: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
Wilson Okamura scripsit: I teach and write at a large public university in eastern North Carolina (not to be confused, I am afraid, with the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, which is a much better school). As for Tolkien and Virgil, I do not take offense at your words. My courses are usually offered in the English department. This content of this particular course is defined very loosely. I have chosen books that (a) are worth teaching and (b) cohere together as a group. We think of Tolkien as a scholar of Old English, but the man also knew his classics. This is clear from his lectures and letters. But it also comes out in his fiction. Have you ever noticed, for instance, that there are no birds in the Dead Marshes? The point is made two or three times in the text, even though it has no bearing on the plot. Why? Because Frodo and Sam are on their way to Mordor, and Tolkien wants us to think of the underworld. Cf. Aen. 6.237ff: Clarissime, Wilson-Okamura, ingenio acutissimo praedite, gratias plurimas tibi ago quia non solum efficis ut pertinentiam loci Vergilii cum Tolkenii opere cognoscam ( revera recta pertinentia ista et doctissime a te esplicata), sed etiam quia Tolkenii opus melius nunc comprehendam, cum adhuc oderim . Aliud est enim Tolkien apud Britannicos et Americanos aliud apud Italicos. Apud Italos enim Tolkien celeberrimus factus est postquam rerum potiti sunt ii quos nos Fascisti vocamus (Berlusconi et alii ) et Tolkenii operis isti «Fascisti» amant maxime illud «Super man» qui iis videtur inveniri posse in aliquibus fabularum Tolkenii personis. Tolkien «as a scholar of Old English qui also knew his classics non novum nobis, sed hoc non satis ut ipse cum Vergilio misceatur: cavendum est ne nobis, in alligandis tot scriptorum tam et tempore et spatio dissimilium locis, accidat idem quod Habinnae in Petronio (Satyricon, LVIII), cum Encolpius exclamat, postquam Habinna declamavit Aen. V,1: «nullus sonus unquam acidior percussit aures meas; nam praeter errantis barbariae aut adiectum aut deminutum clamorem, miscebat Atellanicos versus, ut tunc primum me Vergilus offenderit». Verum est, insignis Wilson-Okamura, quod dixit Jacobus Le Goff, cum affirmavit scientiam antiquitatis principium habere in ea quae est praesens conscientia aetatis nostrae et praecipue cum dixit Americanos non satis profunda sentire principia antiquitatis eorum: abhinc ergo istud miscere Vergilio scriptores recentes? Si cum Europaeis communis Antiquitas putanda est Americanorum, certe vobis Tolkien satis antiquus apparebit, quia satis Europaeus, praesertim cum idem sit vir doctus Britannicarum antiquitatum? Et quomodo discipuli Caesarem vel Augustum cognoscent si cum fabulis scriptis ab Auctore XX saeculi et ad Mediam Tempestatem Britannicam afferentibus Aeneis legitur? Revera et in Italia quoque recentissimis temporibus, relictis Historiae Philologiaeque regulis et instrumentis, ista consuetudo vestra vecta est miscendorum variarum aetatum et variorum locorum scriptorum, alligatis per argumenta locis eorum ( ex. gratia: qui de amore scripserunt simul leguntur, vel qui de bello). Et iisdem recentissimis temporibus pervenit in Italiam usus Americanus eorum instrumentorum docendi qui apud vos «tests» vocantur, ita ut Schola non regnum ratiocinandi et sentiendi appareat sed unus ex iis spectaculis in quibus fiunt ea quae «quiz» vocantur. Sed sane, non totum in iis generalibus consuetudinibus hauritur ingenium tuum; et revera cum de linqua loqueris splendidis argumentis mihi persuades ut tibi credam nullum extare periculum discipulis tuis. Historiae profunditas confusa autem tribus rebus aqua sustinetur praesentis aevi: monumentis qui e terra eminent; religione et moribus; lingua praecipue. Si linguam perscrutas semper ita ut facis nec Vergilius disiunctus est a Tolkienio neque a nobis. Lingua enim tamquam latere constructa pervenit ad nos laterem ad laterem adponendo, neque ordine certo, sed omnibus una superficie iacentibus: cum lateres istos scrutamur historiae restituimus quod suum est et historia in praesentem adfluit, tamquam Mercurius divinum regnum et humanum vivorum et mortuorum efficiebat ut communicarent. Et ab eo enim Graeci «hermeneutiké» creaverunt , quae ars est praecipue nostra. Vale. From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 11:45:05 -0500 attach1 Personalizza MSN Messenger con sfondi e foto. E' divertente! --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
RE: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
Clarissime, nuper scripsisti aliqua de scholis et translationibus et pigris studentibus quaue ego libenter legi . Sed pericula non comprehendam neque te iuvare potero, nisi sciam utrum in Universitate studiorum aliqua an schola superiori (hig school) sis Magister. Illud meum pericula ad Humanitatis scientiam attinet, praesertim cum iam pluribus annis in celeberrimo libello Reynholds et Wilson autumaverunt iuvenes nescire latinam linguam (illi Viri Docti de Anglis studentibus haec adfirmaverunt!). Ergo, si in Universitate Magister es Latinae linguae, pericula maxima video ad humanitatis omnia studia spectantia. Sin autem in Scholis secundariis seu superioribus (quas vos Angli - nisi fallor - 'High Schools vocatis') minima sunt pericula, praesertim si Vergilius legitur cum Homero ut dicis. Sed sane Vergilius cum Tolkien ridiculum mihi videtur. At discipuli tui legunt Robert Graves? Absit iniuria verbis meis. Nescio utrum philologorum opus an totius humanae scientiae tibi proposuisti aut proposuit tibi structura Americanorum cuccirulorum studiorum. Et sane mihi hoc ridiculum videtur cum ego in interpretando Vergilio cum meis discipulis utar, multo cum gaudio eorum, disciplinis interpretandi Americanis: multum amo Harold Bloom (quem italice translatum lego) et lecturas reader-oriented. Sed ego magister sum Latinae Linguaenec Litterarum totius orbis et discipuli mei translationes quasi cotidianas Latinorum Scriptorum perficiunt . Certe tibi consilium vellem dare sive in universitate sive in Schola sis magister: quaestio in vice lectionum persolvitur. Et primum: legant discipuli tui aliquem simplicissimum compendium Aeneidos (si non invenis, scribas tu ipse); deinde legant Angle translatum opus (melius si partes magis amabiles nec totum: exempli gratia liber II, et IV); denique latine legant minimas partes poematis: quae res difficiles in iis partibus sint explica iis antequam legant (si in machina quae computer vocatur immittis textum ,ista machinula generabit indicem alphabeticum omnium vocabulorum (Word hoc facit) et inde nomina locorum, et facta, et nomina personarum, et res precipue Latinas potes breviter iis esplicare. Sed hoc facile est factu si Latine leges cum discipulis tuis selectas et pulchraspartes poematis. Vale Vincentius Crupi From: David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 13:12:17 -0500 attach1 Nuovo MSN Messenger 6.1: con sfondi, foto e giochi. Provalo subito! --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
I agree whole heartedly with what you have written. Primarily, I feel the first method on understanding any of the ancient narratives, if first to understand the nature of humanity. That in itself is a huge undertaking; but rather to understand the social situations of ancient times first in general terms and then to delve slowly on the intricacies that made ancient society whether it be Greek or Roman what it was and why Virgil or for that fact even Homer embarked on using stories to capture the ancient minds. Yes, I believe historically we as moderns havesome idea of what happened; whether it be accurate or not. But do we take these readings as being historically sound.No even as the poems are read today they are not read for their historical accuracy, but for absolute pleasure and enrichment of the soul. Toni
Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
I have always been fond of Frank Copley's translation of the Aeneid but Robert Fitzgerald's is what we use in AP Latin IV at Watterson HS. - Original Message - From: Larry Swain To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 1:38 PM Subject: RE: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation It sounds like we teach a similar class. I haven't,though have thought about, using the Aeneid in acourse on epic literature from the ancient world tothe modern, but I've been afraid that it would be tooheavy for a lower division course. So I'm curiousabout your experience with it that you hint at below.On another note, those who teach or would teach theAeneid in translation, which translation(s) would yourecommend?L. J. Swain--- alexander bril [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is a poem that I know rather well, and I have been writing about the reception of the Aeneid for several years. Over the course of the last five years, I have taught the poem four times, and will do so again in about a month. I confess, however, that I am consistently dissatisfied with what happens when I bring this book into the classroom. Lately I have been teaching the poem in translation, alongside of the Odyssey, Beowulf, and the Lord of the Rings. The Aeneid is the second book we read, and it always feels like a struggle. [alexander wrote this:] W. Anderson in his *Art of the Aeneid* wrote: 'It is the common experience of teachers dealing with humanities courses or courses in Greek and Roman literature that the Aeneid fails to impress the average student, to a large degree because of the inadequacy of all translations... Vergil placed insuperable problems in the way of translators: his style, an essential aspect of the total epic, has not been, and probably cannot be translated. Unlike Homer, Vergil did not produce a poem which would be a "good story" in itself. Anyone can enjoy the Odyssey, for example, whether presented in Victorian prose or in racy modern verse; its power does not depend so heavily on the techniques of oral composition. When Vergil wrote the Aeneid, the different times and his own special talents demanded a thoroughly conscious exploitation of every relevant stylistic technique. The art of the Aeneid, therefore, involves many technical skills which Vergil, starting from the experiments of his predecessors, developed to near-perfection...' There is much food for thought in these words. If one accepts them, how is one to escape the feeling that teaching Vergilian epic in translation is rather a waste of time? Granted that teaching any text in translation inevitably leads to a certain degree of dissatisfaction on the part of both teacher and students, how much more is this the case with the Aeneid, which, as Anderson argues, depends little on the story for its claim to greatness? But if one MUST teach the Aeneid in translation, I think the only way to go about doing this is to concentrate on a few parts only -- preferably the more dramatic parts. I suggest that it will help students to appreciate something of the Aeneid's greatness if one can by means of these few selected sections illustrate -- along the lines set out by the great Vergilian scholar Heinze -- some of the salient features of Vergil's consummate epic technique, especially his handling of the mythological and literary traditions of his predecessors, his judicious composition (unity, sequence of scenes, organisation etc.), his subtle exploitation of dramatic and emotive elements, his intellectualisation of simplistic traditional characters and plot situations etc. Much of this illustration can be done with little or no reference to language and style, the two stumbling blocks for many Latin-less students which stand in the way of their more profound appreciation of the text. Like Heinze, one can easily show how Vergil's accounts, for the purposes of epic, far surpass analogous accounts in Quintus, Apollodorus, Tryphiodorus etc. This method also has the virtue of circumventing the need to give crash courses on ancient geography and history, the benefit of which must be weighed against the time constraints imposed on the text-in-translation course. Only a detailed study of a few selected passages (given the time constraints of teaching a course within one year in which other texts are also studied) can, in my view, leave students with something approaching true appreciation of the Aeneid's greatness. Anything more rapid or superficial, will only result in something like those idiotic 2 week pan-European tours for the culturally-illiterate epicurean swine brigade. Those who've been on them, can say they've been there (to Europe) and they've seen the sights, but none of them can tell you anyth
Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation
Your point is taken. When I first read the Aeneid it was in Latin, but we also read and English version alongside for comparison and so forth. We used the Penguin Classics version and as students of Latin, some of the students found that version to be insufficient; I imagine this was of course in comparison to the Latin itself. The "best translation" is something that I consider very subjective and I think that the key to teaching the epic in translation would have to be oral reading, in the manner of a Roman "lector." This I think will demand a listening and close reading of the text which the instructor could direct accordingly. I have sympathy for the students that find trouble with the Aeneid, I thought it made horrible reading in translation and think that all who read it must first read it in its latin so that they will not have any aversion to reading it again or to the memory of having read it once for class. I hope the teachers in the forum dealing with the matter find successful methods. a humble student send his regards, runako taylor From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VIRGIL: teaching Aeneid in translation Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 08:38:57 EST All that said, most students have not studied latin. In order to embark on such a journey, the reading of two texts; latin and english would be quite a vigorous task not to mention a very ambitious text. My suggestion would be to get the BEST english translation for for Virgil's Aenid, once the text is understood, then the student (if he so desires) can venture into the latin text (equipped of course with a classical latin dictionary) and take it from there. Although as you say the latin version is most rich, few students have studied classical latin; and I feel just reading the best english translation could work just as well. Toni MSN Search, le moteur de recherche qui pense comme vous ! Cliquez-ici --- To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply. Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message "unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
