Re: VIRGIL: A. 12,839: supra ire deos

[Lilaki]

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Re: VIRGIL: A. 12,839: supra ire deos

[Leofranc Holford-Strevens]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
David Wilson-Okamura <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
>Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 01:03:49 +0200 (MET DST)
>From: Neven Jovanovic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>Aeneid 12,838-840:
>
>Hinc genus Ausonio mixtum quod sanguine surget,
>supra homines, supra ire deos pietate uidebis,
>nec gens ulla tuos aeque celebrabit honores.
>
>In reading for _rivers of blood_, I chanced across the verses 
>cited above. The problem seems to fit into the discussion of Vergil's 
>philosophic views. How would you interpret the _supra ire deos pietate_? 
>It is Juppiter who is speaking here, so it seems too easy to dismiss it 
>as mere rhetoric. 
>For the Greeks _supra ire deos_ could be hubris.

Though characters in Euripides accuse the gods of not living up to human
moral standards; and however shocking Euripides was to some people in
his own day, within a generation of his death he had become a classic.

>For the Rome of Vergil's time, it could be bitter irony.
>
Or the spirit of the Augustan religious revival? Most modern scholars
are so detached from the Great Awakenings and other revivals in
Christian religious history that (unlike authors of, say, a century ago)
they absolutely can't take one in ancient Rome seriously; I am very
sceptical of such dogmatic scepticism. I think the e'lite mood had
changed since the closing years of the Republic. If it didn't last,
well, so our own revivals didn't last. But we really must cure ourselves
of the delusion that if we couldn't say something seriously, it must be
ironic in an ancient author.

>I apologize for not translating the lines,

Why apologize?


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Leofranc Holford-Strevens
67 St Bernard's Roadusque adeone
Oxford  scire MEVM nihil est, nisi ME scire hoc sciat alter?
OX2 6EJ


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VIRGIL: A. 12,839: supra ire deos

[David Wilson-Okamura]

Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 01:03:49 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Neven Jovanovic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Aeneid 12,838-840:

Hinc genus Ausonio mixtum quod sanguine surget,
supra homines, supra ire deos pietate uidebis,
nec gens ulla tuos aeque celebrabit honores.

In reading for _rivers of blood_, I chanced across the verses 
cited above. The problem seems to fit into the discussion of Vergil's 
philosophic views. How would you interpret the _supra ire deos pietate_? 
It is Juppiter who is speaking here, so it seems too easy to dismiss it 
as mere rhetoric. 
For the Greeks _supra ire deos_ could be hubris.
For the Rome of Vergil's time, it could be bitter irony.

I apologize for not translating the lines, and for not being able to 
check the commentaries. 
Servius says nothing ad loc.
I checked for further references -- and no Roman poet 
uses the idea, at least not in this (or etymologically similar) wording.


Neven Jovanovic

Department of Classics
Zagreb University
Hrvatska / Croatia

http://www.ffzg.hr/klafil 
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