Re: list corner case
Either C or E works for me, but I'll settle with A as a lousy compromise seeing it already appears to have the popular vote. +1 for C, for what it's worth. -- Andrea Censi PhD student, Control Dynamical Systems, Caltech http://www.cds.caltech.edu/~andrea/ Life is too important to be taken seriously (Oscar Wilde) ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: Markdown Extra Spec: Parsing Section
On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 8:59 PM, Michel Fortin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Basically, parsing is defined as three consecutive passes: parsing document elements, parsing block elements and parsing span elements. Looks good so far. The most delicate part is still to come (defining indentation for lists, and (X)(HT)ML fragments in the text flow). -- Andrea Censi PhD student, Control Dynamical Systems, Caltech http://www.cds.caltech.edu/~andrea/ Life is too important to be taken seriously (Oscar Wilde) ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: Markdown doesn't always generate XHTML
On Sat, Mar 15, 2008 at 3:49 AM, Ulf Ochsenfahrt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Waylan Limberg wrote:
Regarding the security issues, I understand your concerns, but there
are some situations were all document authors are trusted
(authenticated) users and have a legitimate need for that feature. We
can't cut them off for everyone else. However, I know that
Python-Markdown has an option to not allow any html in a document
(this safe_mode can be set to either replace with a customizable
message, remove completely, or escape the html). Of course, to stay in
line with the Markdown standard, it is off by default, but very easy
to turn on in your code. Other implementations may offer a similar
option.
Yes, there are situations where all document authors are trusted
(authentication isn't trust though), but the fact remains that this
makes markdown completely unusable for anything else. And worse, people
are not made aware of this fact. I only encountered this by coincidence,
because one of my users entered what looked like html tags into the forum.
In summary:
Markdown wasn't designed to handle this situation. Some implementations
provide a 'safe mode' which aims to filter the code either before or
after markdown conversion.
Markdownj (Java, which I've been using) doesn't provide such an option.
Markdown.pl doesn't provide such an option.
Nanoki tries to, and fails (see related mail by Michel Fortin) on:
script !--
alert(Hello world!)
/script
PHP Markdown has something like this, and it has to be enabled in the
source (?). It fails when no_markup=true and no_entities=false on:
scriptalert('hallo');/script
Python markdown has such an option and it appears to work for simple
tests. Looking at the code, python markdown apparently creates an XML
document tree and serializes it, making sure that the generated code is
always valid XML (that's a very good design choice if I may say so).
I havn't tried Pandoc, which was also mentioned by John MacFarlane.
Thanks for the summary.
For completeness, Maruku's output is:
pre class='markdown-html-error'HTML parse error:
lt;script lt;!--
alert(quot;Hello world!quot;)
lt;/script lt;gt;/pre
You see, Maruku is used inside Jacques Distler's math-enabled branch
of Instiki [1] which outputs well-formed XHTML + MathML + SVG. You
can't really leave anything to chance. If there is only one error
somewhere, the document does not validate and therefore it does not
render.
Maruku's treatment of raw XML is that it requires it to be well-formed
XML, with some user-friendly exceptions inspired by HTML (user doesn't
have to close br,img, etc.).
If it isn't well formed, it triggers an error (nicely displayed on
stderr, or intercepted by API). Parsing goes on, but for convenience
it outputs the error in the document (see above; can be hidden by
CSS).
Jacques also did some work on sanitizing the XHTML document, but this
logically happens after Maruku.
[1]: http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/instiki/show/HomePage
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Re: on the philosophical aspects of a specification
Maybe what is needed is some kind of syntax checker to run the source through to point out to users where there are errors and/or confusing markup. This could be a separate function from markdown itself, like markdown-lint, or a separate output option of markdown. A separate function would keep the markdown parser smaller. A syntax checker would also help users identify what the problem is when they get unexpected results. Maruku, which uses a parser, does warn[^1] the user if something strange is read (unclosed */**, not valid XML, unclosed ![...], etc.). Some users wrote me that they really liked such feature because it helped them to write proper documents. [^1]: via stderr for command-line maruku; via a callback when maruku is used as a library. -- Andrea Censi PhD student, Control Dynamical Systems, Caltech http://www.cds.caltech.edu/~andrea/ Life is too important to be taken seriously (Oscar Wilde) ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: on the philosophical aspects of a specification
I think what is trying to be said here is that in creating the spec you can't lose the original focus of what Markdown is all about. Users (such as myself) don't really care that much about how the html is generated (breaks and explicit paragraphing are the domain of the parser). What we care about is that the original intent of our written source is maintained. It is very easy when creating a formal spec to lose track of the original intent and thus the usefulness of the tool. If I need to track exactly how many spaces I am allowed to use at the beginning of the line for certain implied formatting (like lists) then I am losing focus from the content I am writing, which is the exact opposite of what Markdown was created for. I don't understand this line of reasoning that already came up on the list. As a user, don't you want that the same input correspond to the same output using a different Markdown interpreter? For example, you compose your blog post offline and preview it using Maruku, and then you post it to your Movable Type blog that uses Markdown.pl. You really want that the HTML generated is the same. This is possible only if we agree on an unambiguous specification. If Markdown ends up diverging by creating too many rigid rules then users such as myself will just end up finding another tool. Now, that a specification be unambiguous doesn't imply that the rules are rigid from the point of view of the user. I think this is the misunderstanding for many people; I hope we can get past it. My $.02 CDN ($.02014US :) Oh, my opinion counts more (0.02 EUR = $0.03 ). No, wait, now I get paid in dollars :-( -- Andrea Censi PhD student, Control Dynamical Systems, Caltech http://www.cds.caltech.edu/~andrea/ Life is too important to be taken seriously (Oscar Wilde) ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: evolving the spec (was: forking Markdown.pl?)
On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 3:04 PM, Yuri Takhteyev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since Joe called for procedural suggestion, here is what I think we should do: 1. ... 2. ... Yuri's suggestion looks reasonable to me. -- Andrea Censi PhD student, Control Dynamical Systems, Caltech http://www.cds.caltech.edu/~andrea/ Life is too important to be taken seriously (Oscar Wilde) ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: forking Markdown.pl?
Hum, while it's difficult to spec Markdown because its author doesn't seem so much interested, I think creating a spec for Markdown Extra is possible. I could host it on my website, alongside PHP Markdown Extra, and I could change PHP Markdown Extra to fit that spec. If you do write a spec for Markdown Extra, I'll make sure Maruku conforms to it. Anyway, a spec for Markdown Extra would contain a spec for Markdown as well, wouldn't it? -- Andrea Censi PhD student, Control Dynamical Systems, Caltech http://www.cds.caltech.edu/~andrea/ Life is too important to be taken seriously (Oscar Wilde) ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: Markdown RFC?
On Feb 18, 2008 2:31 PM, Petite Abeille [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Has anyone considered writing a formal specification for Markdown? Yes, it's called Markdown.pl g. In a nutshell: given that Markdown.pl (and straight ports of it) do processing using multiple passes of regex/replace, you cannot find a syntax that captures Markdown.pl's behavior exactly. In my own Maruku, which uses a parser, I still have to figure out all the subtleties in handling nested lists. I kind of gave up, because I did not see the point in emulating all border cases (and bugs) in Markdown.pl. -- Andrea Censi PhD student, Control Dynamical Systems, Caltech http://www.cds.caltech.edu/~andrea/ Life is too important to be taken seriously (Oscar Wilde) ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: Benchmarks with TextMate's manual
On 8/27/07, Michel Fortin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The following benchmarks have been obtained using the TextMate manual as the input source: http://macromates.com/textmate/manual/source.tbz ... Now, the interesting part of the test: combining all the documents together and parsing them in one shot (352 Ko). With PHP Markdown it takes 29 seconds; with Markdown.pl 1.0.1 it takes 71 seconds. Beside the obvious speed difference between PHP Markdown and Markdown.pl (probably due to what I mentioned above), this test shows that neither PHP Markdown or Markdown.pl scale well for big documents. Maruku takes 8 seconds for parsing (on my PowerBook G4 1.5GHz). (please note that Ruby, per se, is much slower than Perl) I guess that if you plot [time for parsing] versus [length of the document], you get a curve which grows more than linearly for Markdown.pl and PHP Markdown. This is the same behaviour that I observed in Bluecloth (straight port of Markdown.pl in Ruby) -- if I remember well, time was O(length^2). By comparison, Maruku, and other real parsers, takes O(length). At the time, I concluded that it was due to a naive implementation of regexp substitution in Ruby. But I don't know much about regexps in the end, and know even less about Perl and PHP, so I'll shut up and ask you: what do you think this scaling problem is due to? I'll let you draw your own conclusions. That we need a real grammar! and real parsers! -- Andrea Censi Life is too important to be taken seriously (Oscar Wilde) Web: http://www.dis.uniroma1.it/~censi ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: Markdown extensions
Richard Taytor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
### element attributes (the attribute list)
example: `{#id .class name=value}`
More or less like this:
http://maruku.rubyforge.org/proposal.html
Note that this is already implemented in Maruku.
### div
How about this:
http://maruku.rubyforge.org/div.html
I will implement it shortly.
### span
### alternative headings (two kinds)
I have no opinion on these two yet.
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Re: Revisiting mime-types and file extensions
Excellent, thank you very much; using fragment identifiers for versions works for me. Andrea, would you be happy with http://maruku.org/syntax http://maruku.org/syntax#0.5 as profiles? OK for me. It's better with a final slash: http://maruku.org/syntax/#ver so that it's easier to serve a document (rubyforge.org does not support multiviews). -- Andrea Censi Life is too important to be taken seriously (Oscar Wilde) Web: http://www.dis.uniroma1.it/~censi ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: S5 slide show system
On 2/2/07, Daniel Winterstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Has anyone tried using Markdown to generate S5 slide-shows? I think this would be a pretty neat system. I'm thinking a level-1 header could be the slideshow title, and level-2 headers could define individual slides. Any thoughts? It's definitely on the TODO list for Maruku. -- Andrea Censi Life is too important to be taken seriously (Oscar Wilde) Web: http://www.dis.uniroma1.it/~censi ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Proposal for meta-data (third revision)
Hello again!
This is the revised revised revised proposal:
http://maruku.rubyforge.org/proposal.md
http://maruku.rubyforge.org/proposal.html
http://maruku.rubyforge.org/proposal.pdf
The main change was to use an opening string of brace+colon {: to
not lock-up the precious { forever, so that in the future one could
think of using the braces also for other purposes.
Changes were:
* Changed the syntax for compatibility with a future extension mechanism.
The first character in the curly braces must be a colon, optionally
followed by a space:
{: ref .class #id}
The old syntax was `{ref .class #id}`.
For ALDs, the new syntax is:
{:ref_id: key=val .class #id }
instead of:
{ref_id}: key=val .class #id
Converters that don't use this syntax may just ignore everything
which is in curly braces and starts with :.
For regexp-based interpreters, this is the regular expression to
get rid of this stuff: `/\{:(\\\}|[^\}])*\}/`. Just do a
`gsub` with the empty
string, and you are done.
* IAL can be put both *before* and *after* the element.
There is no ambiguity as a blank line is needed between elements:
Paragraph 1
{:par2}
Paragraph 2
is equivalent to:
Paragraph 1
Paragraph 2
{:par2}
* Simplified rules for escaping.
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Re: Revised 2005 proposal for meta-data
On 1/1/07, Ian Barland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FWIW, you can simplify this slightly by getting rid of the might be escaped list -- just decree *any* (punctuation) character might be escaped (using a backslash)[^1]. OK Almost for free, this lets people quote a space (\ would be marked down to nbsp;), as well as quote a newline: a backslash at the end of a line would translate naturally to br/. This rule simpler for both markdown-users and markdown-implementers. After an initial rejection[^1], I agree on both of these. In particular, as an indicator of a linebreak, it would be better than the 2 spaces, because it provides the user with visual feedback. [^1] a \ at the end of the line makes me think of the exact opposite of a linebreak (in C, for example, the \ at the end of the line joins the line with the next). [1] Even further, you could allow non-punctuation to be escaped. In a sense, this is the most consinstent way of escaping. If the rule holds for every context in the document, than the algorithm for interpreting the document is very very simple: 1 - first pass: substitute every escaped sequence with placeholders representing the literal 2 - do regexp/parsing ignoring the escapes 3 - substitute the placeholders Though it might surprise users who write a back\slash only to have markdown seem to mysteriously erase that character. I think this is not so common. If you want to talk about backslashes, you talk about code, and you probably will be using `\`. The summary of all this discussion is: 1) Everywhere all characters can be escaped (except in code blocks) a) \ represents a non-breaking space b) \newline represents a linebreak 2) Inside quoted values, you MUST escape `` 3) Inside 'quoted values', you MUST escape `'` I would tend to drop the special case [text](url titlewithquotes) as it is ambiguous. The first pass of processing the document simply becomes: until eof c = getc if c == '\' push literal(getc) else if c == backtick ` count the number of backticks possibly, eat one space threat as literals everything until closing backtics else push literal(getc) end end -- Andrea Censi Life is too important to be taken seriously (Oscar Wilde) Web: http://www.dis.uniroma1.it/~censi ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Revised - Revised 2005 proposal for meta-data
Happy new year! This is the revised revised proposal: http://maruku.rubyforge.org/proposal.md http://maruku.rubyforge.org/proposal.html http://maruku.rubyforge.org/proposal.pdf I wait for comments. -- Andrea Censi Life is too important to be taken seriously (Oscar Wilde) Web: http://www.dis.uniroma1.it/~censi ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: Leading blank lines in codeblocks ignored?
On 12/31/06, John Gruber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andrea Censi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 12/29/06 at 10:49 PM: Markdown.pl ignores the leading blank line in the code block. Is this intended behaviour? Yes. Is there any way in Markdown to indicate a code-block with a leading blank line? -- Andrea Censi Life is too important to be taken seriously (Oscar Wilde) Web: http://www.dis.uniroma1.it/~censi ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: Escaping inside code blocks?
On 12/31/06, John Gruber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Unless I'm forgetting something, the documentation is wrong. Or, more specifically, it is outdated. The idea is that there are no escapes in code spans. Just like with code blocks, the contents are treated literally. That means the only character you have to worry about escaping is '`' itself, and instead of escaping it with a backslash or something, the rule is just that you increase the number of backticks used as the code span delimiters such that if the contents of the code span contains N consecutive backticks, you use N+1 backticks to delimit the span. Question 2: What is the Markdown syntax for representing: 1) an inline code span whose string is ` (only a backtick) `` ` `` So the spaces around the single ` disappear? -- Andrea Censi Life is too important to be taken seriously (Oscar Wilde) Web: http://www.dis.uniroma1.it/~censi ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: Revised 2005 proposal for meta-data
On 12/31/06, Michel Fortin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Le 2006-12-31 à 5:01, Andrea Censi a écrit : Ideally the list of characters that MIGHT be escaped should be the same in every part of the document, while some characters MUST be escaped in certain parts. Well, that's what I had in mind too. Unfortunately, there is an exception to be done for backward compatibility: [alt text](/url/ Title with quotes inside) -- Andrea Censi Life is too important to be taken seriously (Oscar Wilde) Web: http://www.dis.uniroma1.it/~censi ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: Revised 2005 proposal for meta-data
Unfortunately, there is an exception to be done for backward compatibility: [alt text](/url/ Title with quotes inside) Unless there's a misunderstanding somewhere, this is not an exception at all: you MIGHT escape the quotes in the title if you want, it's only that you don't really have to. I was thinking that: in the quotes you MUST escape the , and you MAY escape the others. A side effect of this is that there's no way to include the string ) within a title attribute inside an inline-style link, nor can you add some space between the quote and the closing parenthesis to avoid the problem. Exactly. So, in the interest of clarity, here's the core problem: If one allows unescaped in quoted values, this causes ambiguities: [alt text](/url/ Title with ) quote and parens inside ) there are 2 ways to interpret this fragment. Such things should not happen. Or consider also: [alt text](/url/ Title with ) [alt text](/url/ quote and parens inside ) how to interpret this? The grammar is ambiguous. I don't know much about parsing, but can you actually build a parser for this grammar? (any CS person out there?) IMHO it was not a good idea to allow such construct. The standard pattern in many languages is to allow single and double quotes, so if you have a title with many single quotes, you use the double quotes, and viceversa: bah 'bah' bah = bah \'bah\' bah = 'bah \'bah\' bah' 'bah bah bah' = 'bah \bah\ bah' = bah \bah\ bah This should be enough for all needs. p.s. Happy new year! -- Andrea Censi Life is too important to be taken seriously (Oscar Wilde) Web: http://www.dis.uniroma1.it/~censi ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Escaping inside code blocks?
I am doing unit-tests for Maruku and every once in a while I run into some doubts. I am posting a lot to the list, but all of these messages should be in-topic (tell me if not). Consider the input: --- `There is a literal backtick (\`) here.` `There is a literal backtick (\\`) here.` ``There is a literal backtick (`) here.`` --- The documentation says that line 2 and 3 are equivalent. (http://maruku.rubyforge.org/markdown_syntax.html#code) But this is Markdown.pl's result: --- pcodeThere is a literal backtick (\/code) here.`/p pcodeThere is a literal backtick (\\/code) here.`/p pcodeThere is a literal backtick (`) here./code/p --- Question 1: How do you do escaping in code blocks in your implementation? Question 2: How should I do escaping in my implementation? Question 2: What is the Markdown syntax for representing: 1) an inline code span whose string is ` (only a backtick) 2) an inline code span whose string is \ (only a backslash) ? -- Andrea Censi Life is too important to be taken seriously (Oscar Wilde) Web: http://www.dis.uniroma1.it/~censi ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Doubt about standard syntax
I have a doubt about the standard syntax (actually, it's the only test that maruku doesn't pass yet). Lists MUST be preceded by an empty line? So the following are only 4 paragraphs, without list items, right? --- Paragraph and no space: * ciao Paragraph and 1 space: * ciao Paragraph and 3 spaces: * ciao Paragraph and 4 spaces: * ciao --- In other words, a paragraph, once started, eats everything until a blank line? -- Andrea Censi Life is too important to be taken seriously (Oscar Wilde) Web: http://www.dis.uniroma1.it/~censi ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: Doubt about standard syntax
On 12/29/06, Robert Ullrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is true, but I find that you can override the paragraph gobble by adding three spaces after a line. Are you talking about a specific implementation, or the syntax in general? Which implementation? -- Andrea Censi Life is too important to be taken seriously (Oscar Wilde) Web: http://www.dis.uniroma1.it/~censi ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Re: Maruku: a better Markdown interpreter for Ruby.
On 12/28/06, John Gruber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andrea Censi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 12/27/06 at 7:11 PM: In particular, what do you think of this (proposed) syntax for adding meta-data to span-level elements? http://maruku.rubyforge.org/maruku.html#future 8.1. A syntax for specifying meta-data for span-level elements Your use of braces here is very likely to conflict with future extensions to Markdown itself. About this, Michel Fortin referred to an old thread (2005) about meta-data syntax. I resurrected it and tried to summarize: http://maruku.rubyforge.org/markdown_extra2.html http://maruku.rubyforge.org/markdown_extra2.md Any comment after so long time? 8.2. Comments. Why not just use HTML comments? For one thing, if I have to write a one-line comment: !-- Please, Mark, have a look at the following list -- I need no less than 7 characters. Practically every language except xml allows a delimiter comment newline syntax. For hiding a lot of text, I concede that the !-- -- syntax is sufficient, but is really overkill for short comments -- Andrea Censi Life is too important to be taken seriously (Oscar Wilde) Web: http://www.dis.uniroma1.it/~censi ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
Maruku: a better Markdown interpreter for Ruby.
Hello to all! Maruku is a Markdown interpreter written in Ruby. It is released under the GPL. Maruku implements the original Markdown syntax and all the improvements in PHP Markdown Extra. Moreover, it implements some ideas from MultiMarkdown, and adds a syntax for specifying metadata for block elements. Unlike Bluecloth, Maruku creates an in-memory representation of the document tree, and this makes it very easy to export to other formats. Out of the box, Maruku offers export to HTML and to Latex/PDF. There is syntax highlighting for code blocks via the `syntax` library for HTML, and via the `listings` package for Latex. Here there are some examples: http://maruku.rubyforge.org/maruku.md http://maruku.rubyforge.org/maruku.html http://maruku.rubyforge.org/maruku.pdf http://maruku.rubyforge.org/markdown_syntax.md http://maruku.rubyforge.org/markdown_syntax.html http://maruku.rubyforge.org/markdown_syntax.pdf Download instructions at http://maruku.rubyforge.org/maruku.html#download In general it should suffice to do: $ gem install maruku This is my first time to release a gem, so let me know of any problem you encounter while installing. Try it with $ maruku file.md # converts to html $ marutex file.md # converts to tex and invokes pdflatex Any feedback is appreciated. In particular, what do you think of this (proposed) syntax for adding meta-data to span-level elements? http://maruku.rubyforge.org/maruku.html#future Have a nice day! -- Andrea Censi Life is too important to be taken seriously (Oscar Wilde) Web: http://www.dis.uniroma1.it/~censi ___ Markdown-Discuss mailing list Markdown-Discuss@six.pairlist.net http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/markdown-discuss
