Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[Tom Davies]

WoooHooo :))

Seems like a LOT of very positive work has been done with excellent results!  I 
think a lot of people deserve credit for making this work so smoothly and fast. 
 

http://www.libreoffice.org.br
Looks good.  The seagulls are not the same as OpenOffices but familiar enough 
that people identify with them while getting used to the change over to TDF and 
LO.
Congrats and good work all!
Regards from
Tom :)





From: Florian Effenberger 
To: marketing@libreoffice.org
Sent: Mon, 23 May, 2011 17:28:20
Subject: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

Hi,

just a quick update from my side on a few topics. Sorry that I am quite late, 
but the last days have been insanely busy for me.

So:
Nearly all Brazilian domain names now point to the TDF/LibO sites, and I would 
like to thank, amongst many, Claudio and Olivier for their support in these 
matters. Despite all that has been said, having the TDF domains redirected 
worked without a big discussion, so thank you again for that.

In addition, pt-br.libreoffice.org shows the TDF mailing lists. Again, thank 
you 
very much for that, that is really appreciated. Should you need more technical 
options, or more lists, let me know.

The domain name that does currently not point to the LibO site is 
www.libreoffice.org.br, but at least mid-term, to me it would be *VERY* 
important that it is also hosted inside the TDF infrastructure. I see that 
there 
is a lot of content from the past years, and I surely do not want you to remove 
that content, as it seems to be widely used.

However, what I do not understand is why it has to be served with the 
LibreOffice domain name. You cannot be using that domain name longer than eight 
months, as before, there was no LibreOffice. So, why not offer it with another 
domain name, and handing over libreoffice.org.br to the TDF infrastructure? I 
am 
happy to have it show a temporary information pointing to the new site, and we 
can also talk about a timeframe during that the domain still points to the 
site. 
However, after some weeks, it should also point to pt-br.libreoffice.org.

Regarding the legal requirements in Brazil: For .org.br, our ISP can *not* 
provide a trustee service, whereas for the other .br domain names, it can. So, 
as said, I am happy to arrange a trustee contact if needed with any of the 
Brazilian NGOs and make the content of the contract public. There's nothing to 
hide, and I can only emphasize this:

I want to work with the Brazilian community at large, not taking sides, but 
rather working united, speaking out with one voice. And I have a feeling we're 
coming closer to that.

Thanks to everyone who contributed.

Florian

-- Florian Effenberger 
Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff

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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Hello Claudio,

2011/5/12 Claudio F Filho 

> Hi
>
> Em 11-05-2011 09:28, Paulo de Souza Lima escreveu:
>
> > 2011/5/11 Charles-H. Schulz
> >
> >> I hope you understand the difference better now. Also, I would like, >>
> as another general comment, to remind you and everyone that Claudio
> >> is also part of the core team of TDF. I am surprised that he hasn't
> >> been more active on this particular topic. That's just my feeling,
> >> perhaps I'm wrong.
> >
> > I am also surprised about the lack of participation of Olivier in this
> > discussion. Claudio has his own personal problems and I can't speak
> > for him.
>
> Really i am out by personal problems.
>

I hope you will be able to overcome them...


>
> But in other hand, i tried to alert in core@ list what happens here some
> months ago, and at final was a talk with some members of SC, without a
> conclusive feedback about this. However, going direct to point.
>
> * Domains *
> As Luiz told, i am talking with Florian about the domains.
> I already request to redirect www.tdf.org.br -> www.tdf.org, and this
> question will be finished soon.
>
> The lib.o.br, was a thing that we discussed inside of our lists, because
> the broffice.org page is a *well know* in Brazil. Other thing is that we
> has different things inside of our page, like news about ODF/BrO/LibO,
> migrations, documentation and many other things, but is clear now that for
> TDF is not (more) interesting the BrOffice and its history.
>
> * Migration *
> As already was explained by Paulo, Luiz and others, we are migrating to
> wiki and SilverStripe, but is many content. Was only a job of 5 years in
> marketing that resulted in a installed base around 15M of desktops with
> Br/LibO in our country. But, ok. We will drop any idea of migration and
> point all to there and maintain the BrOffice.org yet.
> A curiosity about this point is that we have all other brazilian domains of
> each project, like mozilla.org.br and postgresql.org.br, working fine with
> the international projects, without problems, and with the respectively
> recognition of international institution or projects, like Mozilla
> Foundation and PostgreSQL.
>

Each project has its own culture and needs... I would like to thank you
again for working with us on this.



>
> * Official and not official logos *
> About the "warning" in the redirect page in BrOffice.org, we are talking
> about the product. If you remember, before of 3.3.4 was "BrOffice", and now
> "LibreOffice". The brands are correct. About the logo in the main page
> without "The Document Foundation", in the rules[1] say that for
> "non-official" use is to use the "LibreOffice" without the "TDF".
> [1]http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Logo_Policy
>
> A strategy that did the difference here and that some neighboring countries
> are looking our (old!) model maybe is not more interesting.
>
> My two cents...
>


Thank you,

Charles.


>
> Claudio
>
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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Paulo, David,

2011/5/12 Paulo de Souza Lima 

> >
> > > Did someone from the Brazilian community ask David to explain this
> > sentence
> > > or to have it removed?
> >
> >
> > This information was added later trought the mkt-tdf-team (that I don't
> > make
> > part), just and only for tasks divisions, for supporting the new members
> > access of the Portuguese language in the TDF-list. Every time I received
> > any
> > contact on my direct email, and it happens almost every day, I redirected
> > to
> > the pt_br-libreoffice list. However, I always said that everyone could
> read
> > and write English, I also recommend the en-libreoffice-lists.
> >
> > In this tasks divisions, Olivier is the news TDF-contact in portuguese, I
> > (as a speaker of some languages) was to help with the contact for the
> lists
> > as above, and to link with other communities, when the Portuguese and
> > English were still obstacles.
> > Just that. Nothing more, nothing less.
> >
> > But if I should not do that anymore, Ok! No problem.
> >
> > MfG.,
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> I think this issue should be submitted to Brazilian Community's mailing
> lists. That's all.
>
> The Community deliberates and decides. But I also think until that, you
> shall not introduce yourself as a representative, giving an impression that
> you are the only way for people to get there. I suggest, until things are
> over, you remove that phrase from your profile.
>


This is a good point Paulo. Let me perhaps clarify one thing. At the TDF, at
the moment, we have no "representative" of NGOs . Which means no one can
claim their represent the French community, nor the Brazilian, etc. So I
think now things should be very clear with respect to David. David is a
founder of TDF, no more, no less.

Having had a very nice and productive meeting with the french LibreOffice
association I think we will have to work in the near future in a good and
effective way to ackowledge and work with NGOs. This becomes necessary,
whether in problematical cases or just for normal times.

best
Charles.


>
> Best regards.
>
> --
> 
> Paulo de Souza Lima
> Técnico em Eletrônica e Administrador
> http://www.pasl.net.br
> http://almalivre.wordpress.com
> Curitiba - PR
> Linux User #432358
> Ubuntu User #28729
>
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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)

No.  I think the work you all have been doing to migrate to better systems is 
great and should continue.  Using a "stepping stone" is a clever way to avoid 
emergencies.  It also means you have plenty of time to prepare the 
goal-website/domain so that it will work much better.  A much better result 
than 
a hasty ill-considered move!  It is becoming clearer and clearer that a lot of 
thought and planning has gone into this but the first few posts to the English 
lists made a few of us panic because it sounded too hasty.  We know better now 
and are much happier.  


It is also good to hear that your old web-sites/domains will continue to exist 
for quite a while as that allows you to redirect people and gradually get the 
new names well known in places that have become familiar with the old names.  


I wish we could have had such an organised migration from OpenOffice to TDF and 
LibreOffice.  Perhaps now that Oracle seem to have decided to drop OOo there 
might be some chance for us to make a better migration.  


Anyway, good luck and regards to all from
Tom :)






From: Claudio F Filho 
To: marketing@libreoffice.org
Sent: Thu, 12 May, 2011 13:55:54
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

Hi

Em 11-05-2011 09:28, Paulo de Souza Lima escreveu:
> 2011/5/11 Charles-H. Schulz
>
>> I hope you understand the difference better now. Also, I would like, >> as 
>>another general comment, to remind you and everyone that Claudio
>> is also part of the core team of TDF. I am surprised that he hasn't
>> been more active on this particular topic. That's just my feeling,
>> perhaps I'm wrong.
>
> I am also surprised about the lack of participation of Olivier in this
> discussion. Claudio has his own personal problems and I can't speak
> for him.

Really i am out by personal problems.

But in other hand, i tried to alert in core@ list what happens here some months 
ago, and at final was a talk with some members of SC, without a conclusive 
feedback about this. However, going direct to point.

* Domains *
As Luiz told, i am talking with Florian about the domains.
I already request to redirect www.tdf.org.br -> www.tdf.org, and this question 
will be finished soon.

The lib.o.br, was a thing that we discussed inside of our lists, because the 
broffice.org page is a *well know* in Brazil. Other thing is that we has 
different things inside of our page, like news about ODF/BrO/LibO, migrations, 
documentation and many other things, but is clear now that for TDF is not 
(more) 
interesting the BrOffice and its history.

* Migration *
As already was explained by Paulo, Luiz and others, we are migrating to wiki 
and 
SilverStripe, but is many content. Was only a job of 5 years in marketing that 
resulted in a installed base around 15M of desktops with Br/LibO in our 
country. 
But, ok. We will drop any idea of migration and point all to there and maintain 
the BrOffice.org yet.
A curiosity about this point is that we have all other brazilian domains of 
each 
project, like mozilla.org.br and postgresql.org.br, working fine with the 
international projects, without problems, and with the respectively recognition 
of international institution or projects, like Mozilla Foundation and 
PostgreSQL.

* Official and not official logos *
About the "warning" in the redirect page in BrOffice.org, we are talking about 
the product. If you remember, before of 3.3.4 was "BrOffice", and now 
"LibreOffice". The brands are correct. About the logo in the main page without 
"The Document Foundation", in the rules[1] say that for "non-official" use is 
to 
use the "LibreOffice" without the "TDF".
[1]http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Logo_Policy

A strategy that did the difference here and that some neighboring countries are 
looking our (old!) model maybe is not more interesting.

My two cents...

Claudio

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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[Paulo de Souza Lima]

>
> > Did someone from the Brazilian community ask David to explain this
> sentence
> > or to have it removed?
>
>
> This information was added later trought the mkt-tdf-team (that I don't
> make
> part), just and only for tasks divisions, for supporting the new members
> access of the Portuguese language in the TDF-list. Every time I received
> any
> contact on my direct email, and it happens almost every day, I redirected
> to
> the pt_br-libreoffice list. However, I always said that everyone could read
> and write English, I also recommend the en-libreoffice-lists.
>
> In this tasks divisions, Olivier is the news TDF-contact in portuguese, I
> (as a speaker of some languages) was to help with the contact for the lists
> as above, and to link with other communities, when the Portuguese and
> English were still obstacles.
> Just that. Nothing more, nothing less.
>
> But if I should not do that anymore, Ok! No problem.
>
> MfG.,
>
> David
>
>
I think this issue should be submitted to Brazilian Community's mailing
lists. That's all.

The Community deliberates and decides. But I also think until that, you
shall not introduce yourself as a representative, giving an impression that
you are the only way for people to get there. I suggest, until things are
over, you remove that phrase from your profile.

Best regards.

-- 

Paulo de Souza Lima
Técnico em Eletrônica e Administrador
http://www.pasl.net.br
http://almalivre.wordpress.com
Curitiba - PR
Linux User #432358
Ubuntu User #28729

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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[Claudio F Filho]

Hi

Em 11-05-2011 09:28, Paulo de Souza Lima escreveu:
> 2011/5/11 Charles-H. Schulz
>
>> I hope you understand the difference better now. Also, I would like, 
>> as another general comment, to remind you and everyone that Claudio

>> is also part of the core team of TDF. I am surprised that he hasn't
>> been more active on this particular topic. That's just my feeling,
>> perhaps I'm wrong.
>
> I am also surprised about the lack of participation of Olivier in this
> discussion. Claudio has his own personal problems and I can't speak
> for him.

Really i am out by personal problems.

But in other hand, i tried to alert in core@ list what happens here some 
months ago, and at final was a talk with some members of SC, without a 
conclusive feedback about this. However, going direct to point.


* Domains *
As Luiz told, i am talking with Florian about the domains.
I already request to redirect www.tdf.org.br -> www.tdf.org, and this 
question will be finished soon.


The lib.o.br, was a thing that we discussed inside of our lists, because 
the broffice.org page is a *well know* in Brazil. Other thing is that we 
has different things inside of our page, like news about ODF/BrO/LibO, 
migrations, documentation and many other things, but is clear now that 
for TDF is not (more) interesting the BrOffice and its history.


* Migration *
As already was explained by Paulo, Luiz and others, we are migrating to 
wiki and SilverStripe, but is many content. Was only a job of 5 years in 
marketing that resulted in a installed base around 15M of desktops with 
Br/LibO in our country. But, ok. We will drop any idea of migration and 
point all to there and maintain the BrOffice.org yet.
A curiosity about this point is that we have all other brazilian domains 
of each project, like mozilla.org.br and postgresql.org.br, working fine 
with the international projects, without problems, and with the 
respectively recognition of international institution or projects, like 
Mozilla Foundation and PostgreSQL.


* Official and not official logos *
About the "warning" in the redirect page in BrOffice.org, we are talking 
about the product. If you remember, before of 3.3.4 was "BrOffice", and 
now "LibreOffice". The brands are correct. About the logo in the main 
page without "The Document Foundation", in the rules[1] say that for 
"non-official" use is to use the "LibreOffice" without the "TDF".

[1]http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Logo_Policy

A strategy that did the difference here and that some neighboring 
countries are looking our (old!) model maybe is not more interesting.


My two cents...

Claudio

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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[David Emmerich Jourdain]

Grüss Dich Bernhard, Hi all.

2011/5/11 Bernhard Dippold 

> Hi Charles, Paulo, all,
>
> I don't know you, Paulo, very well, but reading your postings shows me that
> you care for both, the Brazilian and the international LibreOffice
> community.
>
> I know Charles much better - he works hard to support the LibreOffice
> community, he has experienced quite negative effects of words and actions in
> the past, first for OpenOffice.org, now for LibreOffice, and he wants to
> avoid such effects wherever he finds signs that might lead in this
> direction.
>
> And - he tries to be quite clear in his wording, leading to the impression
> that he doesn't care about the perception and feelings of the people he
> talks to.
>
> But what I wanted to add here in the thread is something different:
>
> Charles-H. Schulz schrieb:
>
>  Paulo,
>>
>> Le Wed, 11 May 2011 11:42:02 -0300,
>> Paulo de Souza Lima  a écrit :
>>
>>  2011/5/11 Charles-H. Schulz
>>>
>>>  Hello Paulo,

  Hello.
>>>
>>>  TDF will be satisfied when the whole community will be healthy and
 able to contribute to LibreOffice.


  I'm not sure what you mean with "healthy and able to contribute to
>>> LibreOffice". I am telling you, since the begining of this mess, we
>>> ARE healthy, contributing and doing our job. I really still don't
>>> understand why you refuse to agree with that. The proof is in TDF
>>> wiki and websites, but I won't insist in this matter anymore, also.
>>> If you have a web browser and Google Translate, you can easily see it
>>> by yourself. Do it!
>>>
>>
>> Paulo: calm down. :-) don't take each of my sentences as an attack.
>> What I mean by a healthy community is a community that does not have
>> open quarrels and arguments such as... the brazilian community. You
>> tell me the community is healthy, but it's not so clear to me. (and
>> there again I have to stop commenting because it quickly stops
>> being TDF's business).
>>
>
> That's not true in my eyes.
>
> TDF as the international LibreOffice community *is* interested in every
> regional team working to further LibreOffice as product and as community.
>
> If there are issues, where the international community can help, we want to
> be involved. We've been telling this several times privately and on the
> mailing lists (e.g. after the announcement of dropping the BrOffice.org name
> and switching to LibreOffice).
>
> But our help is limited.
>
> Interpersonal issues should be able to be solved among the people involved.
>
> Decisions inside a local team or community about the tools they use and the
> way they work together should not involve the international community,
> unless they lead to problems in the relationship to the international
> community or restrictions to work with the international tools.
>
> This has been my concern with the "wrong" mailing list (Gubros) and the
> "wrong" domain (.org.br).
>
> It was not clear to me (and others looking from the outside) that both are
> interim solutions on your way from an mostly independent BrOffice community
> to the Brazilian part of the international LibreOffice community.
>
> Reading that there are people in Brazil trying to keep up their independent
> community without seeing the positive aspects of being part of the
> international community leads to sad feelings:
>
> LibreOffice *is* international, and even if everybody is free to decide how
> to work and discuss, we experienced something similar in the past:
>
> Single persons or groups tried to draw interested newcomers or community
> members away from this international team, towards a working area with
> different focus. They used our infrastructure, pointed to their mailing
> lists instead of the official ones and so on.
>
> Everybody should have the chance to contribute to LibreOffice directly -
> neither filtered by an NGO (as BrOffice times are over, I don't need any
> prove or denial in this area), nor redirected to different websites or
> mailing lists.
>
> That's the reason why I want to see a clear statement on the website and in
> the wiki describing the .org.br website as interim solution until the
> content has been moved to the pt-br website.
>
> If the website would contain a heading like "we're moving the content of
> this site to our new home http://pt-br.libreoffice.org"; and the
> broffice.org site would lead to this page too, I'm sure the Steering
> Committee would allow to use the external page for the time needed.
>
> Of course you can link to resources on the interim site from each pt-br
> webpage (like "For more content ., please have a look at our old
> website, until the migration has been finished"). I think a prominent link
> from the main page to libreoffice.org.br might help your users not to feel
> lost in the transition, and this should not be a problem if the goal would
> be mentioned here too.
>
> For the mailing list (Luiz told us, that you are already moving) I hope
> transistion is easier. I don't mind at

Re: RE : Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[Rui]

Hi!

This is probably my first post in the list, but I've followed all the
discussion closely

Everything that Paulo and Luiz are arguing has basement and I agree with
them because I also experienced the many attempts of manipulation.

Even say that I had some work literally "hijacked", so that it could accelerate
the translation of the libreoffice.org portal to pt-br. So what are the
reasons for them to do so? I summarize in two words: self-promotion and market
reserve.

Best regards!


Rui Ogawa

tenção! Caso haja documentos de escritório anexados neste e-mail, eles
poderão estar no formato ODF, um padrão aberto, gratuito e homologado pela
ISO e ABNT. Para abrir e editá-los, basta baixar e instalar o
LibreOffice.org em http://libreoffice.org/download.

Quer a estabilidade do Debian e a facilidade do Mint? Experimente Linux Mint
Debian Edition!
http://www.linuxmint.com/download_lmde.php


2011/5/12 Charles-H. Schulz 

> Luiz,
>
> You do make accusations against people who are founders or members of TDF.
> TDF cannot sort out the issues that have happened outside of itself. Now,
> if
> you make accusations on something that happened in this project (not inside
> your NGO) please address them to the SC with facts. You claimed Olivier
> didn't accept others' contributions on Pootle. Please, let's check our
> logs.
> Do you understand what I'm trying to say?
>
> And can we please go back on doing marketing on this list?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Charles.
>
> Le 12 mai 2011, 1:49 PM, "luiz"  a écrit :
>
> Charles,
>
> You escape the central questions raised. I'm not making accusations, I'm
> bringing facts here in Brazil and TDF should at least find out if what
> I'm saying is true or not instead of accusing me of lying as you are
> doing. By the way, you are a Olivier's lawyer?
>
> I'm seeing some things very clear after this discussion. Another message
> stated that it is necessary sponsorship to be a member of TDF. I want to
> believe that Olivier was godfather Eliane Domingos, which is perfectly
> normal. But he denies this, as it can be seen here:
> http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/pt-br/usuarios/msg00785.html
> Then I ask who's lying?
>
> Luiz
>
> > Luiz, > > 2011/5/12 luiz  > >> Hi, >> >>> On Wed,
> 2011-05-11 at 17:17 +, ...
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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[Italo Vignoli]

On 5/12/11 2:09 PM, Paulo de Souza Lima wrote:


I think we can let this issue about membership go


Membership issues should be addresses to the membership committee. This 
is a marketing list, and membership issues do not belong to marketing.


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RE : Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Luiz,

You do make accusations against people who are founders or members of TDF.
TDF cannot sort out the issues that have happened outside of itself. Now, if
you make accusations on something that happened in this project (not inside
your NGO) please address them to the SC with facts. You claimed Olivier
didn't accept others' contributions on Pootle. Please, let's check our logs.
Do you understand what I'm trying to say?

And can we please go back on doing marketing on this list?

Thank you,

Charles.

Le 12 mai 2011, 1:49 PM, "luiz"  a écrit :

Charles,

You escape the central questions raised. I'm not making accusations, I'm
bringing facts here in Brazil and TDF should at least find out if what
I'm saying is true or not instead of accusing me of lying as you are
doing. By the way, you are a Olivier's lawyer?

I'm seeing some things very clear after this discussion. Another message
stated that it is necessary sponsorship to be a member of TDF. I want to
believe that Olivier was godfather Eliane Domingos, which is perfectly
normal. But he denies this, as it can be seen here:
http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/pt-br/usuarios/msg00785.html
Then I ask who's lying?

Luiz

> Luiz, > > 2011/5/12 luiz  > >> Hi, >> >>> On Wed,
2011-05-11 at 17:17 +, ...
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Re: RE : [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[Paulo de Souza Lima]

Good morning/afternoon/evening/night for all.

First of all: sorry for the top posting.

Please, guys

I think we can let this issue about membership go, only thinking about some
simple facts:

1 - Charles garantee us he is taking objetive criteria for new membership
submission. I think it's true.
2 - If this is true, I suppose those criteria are (please correct me if I am
mistaken): member's activities on wiki, pootle, silverstripe, ODFAuthors,
mailing lists, etc.
3 - A subjetive criteria is being used, that is an opinion of one or more
older members.

Based on this facts, I must conclude that:

1 - Eliane's activities on Silver Stripe were counted to the score. Eliane
has no English skills to translate all those pages from libreoffice.org to
pt-br.libreoffice.org, so, in last December/January, she asked me, Rui and
Rogério to translate them and send translations to her in PVT e-mails. To
shut up our voices, she had included our photos in a separated credits page
in pt-br.libreoffice.org. This is well documented in the history of silver
stripe and in our mailing lists. So, I suppose that the "copy and paste
girl" used our work to sum scores and become elegible. And this is what I
mean when I say they were acting like a proxy between Brazilian Community
and TDF. And that behavior was the last drop for us to start a rebelion
against those people.
2 - Charles must be asked for Olivier/David/Gustavo's opinion about Eliane
Domingues, which should be the best possible, I suppose. Again, Olivier can
have been lied to us, because some days ago he told us he was not contacted
by anyone about this issue, in one of our mailing lists. Or, possibly,
Charles could have forgotten to do that... I don't know. In this case, only
the objective criteria should be considered.

Based on those evidences, we must ask for your attention to some things:

1 - We have asked for a second admin account to Pootle for Claudio F. Filho.
It isn't a confortable situation to have only one admin and this one are not
trusted. This request were made some times before and denied.
2 - The system you are using for membership submission isn't the "state of
art", but it's the one you have. It should be reviewed.

I won't ask for you to review Eliane's membership submission. That's your
job to decide that based on the evidences and in your will. We have enough
evidences even to accuse her of unauthorized use of our work for self
benefit. But I think, only the fact we know that is enough. I don't think we
could separate what part of that work belongs to each one of us, at this
time. So I will not request a revision of her score. I think each one of us
has the skills and the will to show up our jobs and sum those scores again.

I also think things are cleared, at last. Now, we all must clean this mess
and go to work. And there's a lot of work to do!!!

I think the requests made by Bernard in the other e-mail are quite fair, and
all of them will be done asap.

I finish here my contribution to this topic. Thanks a lot for hearing us.

My best regards to all of you.

2011/5/12 Charles-H. Schulz 

> Bernhard,
>
> I'm not commenting on what I expect. Paulo's sentence if yesterday was
> quite
> clear. There aren't 4 brazilian founders of tdf, and I sure hope there will
> be more than 4 brazilian members of TDF. But then I find that reasoning on
> the base of nationality is not the best way to look at our membership...
>
> Charles.
>
> Le 12 mai 2011, 10:01 AM, "Bernhard Dippold" 
> a
> écrit :
>
> Charles,
>
> You wrote: > Drew, > > 2011/5/12 drew  > > > On Wed,
> 2011-05-11 at 22:25 -0...
> So don't comment on what you expect, but read what is written:
>
> Paulo did refer to founding members and actual TDF members.
>
> Please have a look here:
> http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/members/
>
> Regards
>
> Bernhard
>

-- 

Paulo de Souza Lima
Técnico em Eletrônica e Administrador
http://www.pasl.net.br
http://almalivre.wordpress.com
Curitiba - PR
Linux User #432358
Ubuntu User #28729

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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[luiz]

Hi Bernhard ,

Unfortunately, Charles sees only what he wants and just says what he
wants. Not really concerned about the serious issues we are bringing.


Luiz
> Charles,
>
> You wrote:
>> Drew,
>>
>> 2011/5/12 drew 
>>
>>> On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 22:25 -0300, luiz wrote:
 Hi,

> On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 17:17 +, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
>> And this recalls another concern of ours: there are 4 brazilians as
>>> TDF members/founders.
>> I count 3: Claudio, David and Olivier.
> Eliane Domingos is the fourth.
>
> //drew
>
>>> Hi Luiz.
>>>
>>> It was simply that I knew there was at least four members from Brasil
>>> - I recalled seeing a blog by Olivier Hallot on the subject.
>>>
>>>
>>> http://olivierhallot.blogspot.com/2011/05/novo-membro-da-document-foundation.html
>>>
>>> You are going places in your reply however where I have no business
>>> going.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Drew
>>>
>>>
>> As far as I can tell, this link is quite clear:
>> http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/
>> I don't see Eliane Domingos in that list.
> So don't comment on what you expect, but read what is written:
>
> Paulo did refer to founding members and actual TDF members.
>
> Please have a look here:
> http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/members/
>
> Regards
>
> Bernhard
>
>
>
>


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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[luiz]

Charles,

You escape the central questions raised. I'm not making accusations, I'm
bringing facts here in Brazil and TDF should at least find out if what
I'm saying is true or not instead of accusing me of lying as you are
doing. By the way, you are a Olivier's lawyer?

I'm seeing some things very clear after this discussion. Another message
stated that it is necessary sponsorship to be a member of TDF. I want to
believe that Olivier was godfather Eliane Domingos, which is perfectly
normal. But he denies this, as it can be seen here:
http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/pt-br/usuarios/msg00785.html
Then I ask who's lying?

Luiz
> Luiz,
>
> 2011/5/12 luiz 
>
>> Hi,
>>
>>> On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 17:17 +, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
 And this recalls another concern of ours: there are 4 brazilians as
> TDF members/founders.
 I count 3: Claudio, David and Olivier.
>>> Eliane Domingos is the fourth.
>>>
>>> //drew
>>>
>> I'm very curious to know what the criterion for immediate her
>> acceptance. And the Paulo refused. Most translations of the Brazilian
>> portal (pt-br.libreoffice.org) was that he didand other contributors,
>> but who signed? I answer: Eliane and Gustavo and Olivier...
>>
>
> So all this discussion, Luiz, seems to really be about the fact that the
> Brazilian community has interpersonal problems.
> And now you are now second-guessing and badmouthing the Membership committee
> (of which I'm not part).
> Obviously this may not exactly be the best way to carry your message
>
>
>> You know why only Olivier translates LibreOffice (l10n)to Brazilian
>> portuguese? Because he does not let anyone else help. Now, Rogério Luz
>> is trying to help. But I think it is not easy.
>>
>
> Perhaps it's because this is the marketing list and you don't feel bound by
> the reality of development and localization process.
> Just take a look at the l10n infrastructure and process, and you might
> realize that your words are not very credible. We've released LibreOffice
> 3.3, 3.3.1, 3.3.2, and we're now on beta stage of the 3.4. After 7 months
> you are complaining you 're being bullied by Olivier? Sorry, but I get the
> feeling that your accusations become more extreme at each email.
>
>
> Best,
> Charles.
>
>
>>
>> Luiz Oliveira
>>
>>
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RE : [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Bernhard,

I'm not commenting on what I expect. Paulo's sentence if yesterday was quite
clear. There aren't 4 brazilian founders of tdf, and I sure hope there will
be more than 4 brazilian members of TDF. But then I find that reasoning on
the base of nationality is not the best way to look at our membership...

Charles.

Le 12 mai 2011, 10:01 AM, "Bernhard Dippold"  a
écrit :

Charles,

You wrote: > Drew, > > 2011/5/12 drew  > > > On Wed,
2011-05-11 at 22:25 -0...
So don't comment on what you expect, but read what is written:

Paulo did refer to founding members and actual TDF members.

Please have a look here:
http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/members/

Regards

Bernhard




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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[Sophie Gautier]

Hi all,
On 12/05/2011 11:00, Bernhard Dippold wrote:

Charles,

You wrote:

Drew,

2011/5/12 drew


On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 22:25 -0300, luiz wrote:

Hi,


On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 17:17 +, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:

And this recalls another concern of ours: there are 4 brazilians as

TDF members/founders.

I count 3: Claudio, David and Olivier.

Eliane Domingos is the fourth.

//drew



Hi Luiz.

It was simply that I knew there was at least four members from Brasil
- I recalled seeing a blog by Olivier Hallot on the subject.


http://olivierhallot.blogspot.com/2011/05/novo-membro-da-document-foundation.html

You are going places in your reply however where I have no business
going.

Best wishes,

Drew



As far as I can tell, this link is quite clear:
http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/
I don't see Eliane Domingos in that list.


So don't comment on what you expect, but read what is written:

Paulo did refer to founding members and actual TDF members.


But as a member of the committee, what I see is that Paulo membership 
application is in review and have not been refused nor accepted.
So this is simply not true that we have favored anybody here, and the 
review period is necessary for us when we have to check the 
participation, even more in another language than English.

We are just volunteers trying to get the things correctly done too.
And if there is an issue with a decision of the committee, feel free to 
claim for explanation on the steering discuss list.

Thanks in advance
Kind regards
Sophie


Please have a look here:
http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/members/

Regards

Bernhard







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RE : [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Le 12 mai 2011, 10:01 AM, "Bernhard Dippold"  a
écrit :

Charles,

You wrote: > Drew, > > 2011/5/12 drew  > > > On Wed,
2011-05-11 at 22:25 -0...
So don't comment on what you expect, but read what is written:

Paulo did refer to founding members and actual TDF members.

Please have a look here:
http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/members/

Regards

Bernhard




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[libreoffice-marketing] Re: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[Bernhard Dippold]

Charles,

You wrote:
> Drew,
> 
> 2011/5/12 drew 
> 
> > On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 22:25 -0300, luiz wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > > On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 17:17 +, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> > > >> And this recalls another concern of ours: there are 4 brazilians as
> > > >>> TDF members/founders.
> > > >> I count 3: Claudio, David and Olivier.
> > > > Eliane Domingos is the fourth.
> > > >
> > > > //drew
> > > >
> >
> > Hi Luiz.
> >
> > It was simply that I knew there was at least four members from Brasil
> > - I recalled seeing a blog by Olivier Hallot on the subject.
> >
> >
> > http://olivierhallot.blogspot.com/2011/05/novo-membro-da-document-foundation.html
> >
> > You are going places in your reply however where I have no business
> > going.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Drew
> >
> >
> As far as I can tell, this link is quite clear:
> http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/
> I don't see Eliane Domingos in that list.

So don't comment on what you expect, but read what is written:

Paulo did refer to founding members and actual TDF members.

Please have a look here:
http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/members/

Regards

Bernhard




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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Luiz,

2011/5/12 luiz 

> Hi,
>
> > On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 17:17 +, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> >> And this recalls another concern of ours: there are 4 brazilians as
> >>> TDF members/founders.
> >> I count 3: Claudio, David and Olivier.
> > Eliane Domingos is the fourth.
> >
> > //drew
> >
>
> I'm very curious to know what the criterion for immediate her
> acceptance. And the Paulo refused. Most translations of the Brazilian
> portal (pt-br.libreoffice.org) was that he didand other contributors,
> but who signed? I answer: Eliane and Gustavo and Olivier...
>


So all this discussion, Luiz, seems to really be about the fact that the
Brazilian community has interpersonal problems.
And now you are now second-guessing and badmouthing the Membership committee
(of which I'm not part).
Obviously this may not exactly be the best way to carry your message


>
> You know why only Olivier translates LibreOffice (l10n)to Brazilian
> portuguese? Because he does not let anyone else help. Now, Rogério Luz
> is trying to help. But I think it is not easy.
>


Perhaps it's because this is the marketing list and you don't feel bound by
the reality of development and localization process.
Just take a look at the l10n infrastructure and process, and you might
realize that your words are not very credible. We've released LibreOffice
3.3, 3.3.1, 3.3.2, and we're now on beta stage of the 3.4. After 7 months
you are complaining you 're being bullied by Olivier? Sorry, but I get the
feeling that your accusations become more extreme at each email.


Best,
Charles.


>
>
> Luiz Oliveira
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Drew,

2011/5/12 drew 

> On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 22:25 -0300, luiz wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > > On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 17:17 +, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> > >> And this recalls another concern of ours: there are 4 brazilians as
> > >>> TDF members/founders.
> > >> I count 3: Claudio, David and Olivier.
> > > Eliane Domingos is the fourth.
> > >
> > > //drew
> > >
>
> Hi Luiz.
>
> It was simply that I knew there was at least four members from Brasil
> - I recalled seeing a blog by Olivier Hallot on the subject.
>
>
> http://olivierhallot.blogspot.com/2011/05/novo-membro-da-document-foundation.html
>
> You are going places in your reply however where I have no business
> going.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Drew
>
>
As far as I can tell, this link is quite clear:
http://www.documentfoundation.org/foundation/
I don't see Eliane Domingos in that list.

Best,
Charles.

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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[drew]

On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 22:25 -0300, luiz wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> > On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 17:17 +, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> >> And this recalls another concern of ours: there are 4 brazilians as
> >>> TDF members/founders.
> >> I count 3: Claudio, David and Olivier. 
> > Eliane Domingos is the fourth.
> >
> > //drew
> >

Hi Luiz.

It was simply that I knew there was at least four members from Brasil 
- I recalled seeing a blog by Olivier Hallot on the subject.

http://olivierhallot.blogspot.com/2011/05/novo-membro-da-document-foundation.html

You are going places in your reply however where I have no business
going.

Best wishes,

Drew



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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I think we need those 4 people to act as the Named Contacts for Paulo and 
others.  Note that when the form asked for 2 contact people to confirm it need 
those 2 people to already be members.

So, a lot of people are going to have to try re-applying a few times until we 
can get everyone in.  It will become easier as more people become properly 
registered but it's a bit of a pain trying to fulfil German Company Law.

Note that there are probably other official members that could be your named 
contacts but people inside your community might be better placed to help so ask 
around.  I think that is 1 reason why there has been a request for a list on 
the 
website = so that it's easier to find someone that might be keen & willing to 
act as yur named person.

I'm not a member yet either :(
Regards from
Tom :)





From: luiz 
To: marketing@libreoffice.org
Sent: Thu, 12 May, 2011 2:25:59
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

Hi,

> On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 17:17 +, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
>> And this recalls another concern of ours: there are 4 brazilians as
>>> TDF members/founders.
>> I count 3: Claudio, David and Olivier. 
> Eliane Domingos is the fourth.
>
> //drew
>

I'm very curious to know what the criterion for immediate her
acceptance. And the Paulo refused. Most translations of the Brazilian
portal (pt-br.libreoffice.org) was that he didand other contributors,
but who signed? I answer: Eliane and Gustavo and Olivier...

You know why only Olivier translates LibreOffice (l10n)to Brazilian
portuguese? Because he does not let anyone else help. Now, Rogério Luz
is trying to help. But I think it is not easy.


Luiz Oliveira


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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[luiz]

Hi,

> On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 17:17 +, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
>> And this recalls another concern of ours: there are 4 brazilians as
>>> TDF members/founders.
>> I count 3: Claudio, David and Olivier. 
> Eliane Domingos is the fourth.
>
> //drew
>

I'm very curious to know what the criterion for immediate her
acceptance. And the Paulo refused. Most translations of the Brazilian
portal (pt-br.libreoffice.org) was that he didand other contributors,
but who signed? I answer: Eliane and Gustavo and Olivier...

You know why only Olivier translates LibreOffice (l10n)to Brazilian
portuguese? Because he does not let anyone else help. Now, Rogério Luz
is trying to help. But I think it is not easy.


Luiz Oliveira


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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[drew]

On Wed, 2011-05-11 at 17:17 +, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> And this recalls another concern of ours: there are 4 brazilians as
> > TDF members/founders.
> 
> I count 3: Claudio, David and Olivier. 

Eliane Domingos is the fourth.

//drew


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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[Bernhard Dippold]

Hi Charles, Paulo, all,

I don't know you, Paulo, very well, but reading your postings shows me 
that you care for both, the Brazilian and the international LibreOffice 
community.


I know Charles much better - he works hard to support the LibreOffice 
community, he has experienced quite negative effects of words and 
actions in the past, first for OpenOffice.org, now for LibreOffice, and 
he wants to avoid such effects wherever he finds signs that might lead 
in this direction.


And - he tries to be quite clear in his wording, leading to the 
impression that he doesn't care about the perception and feelings of the 
people he talks to.


But what I wanted to add here in the thread is something different:

Charles-H. Schulz schrieb:

Paulo,

Le Wed, 11 May 2011 11:42:02 -0300,
Paulo de Souza Lima  a écrit :


2011/5/11 Charles-H. Schulz


Hello Paulo,


Hello.


TDF will be satisfied when the whole community will be healthy and
able to contribute to LibreOffice.



I'm not sure what you mean with "healthy and able to contribute to
LibreOffice". I am telling you, since the begining of this mess, we
ARE healthy, contributing and doing our job. I really still don't
understand why you refuse to agree with that. The proof is in TDF
wiki and websites, but I won't insist in this matter anymore, also.
If you have a web browser and Google Translate, you can easily see it
by yourself. Do it!


Paulo: calm down. :-) don't take each of my sentences as an attack.
What I mean by a healthy community is a community that does not have
open quarrels and arguments such as... the brazilian community. You
tell me the community is healthy, but it's not so clear to me. (and
there again I have to stop commenting because it quickly stops
being TDF's business).


That's not true in my eyes.

TDF as the international LibreOffice community *is* interested in every 
regional team working to further LibreOffice as product and as community.


If there are issues, where the international community can help, we want 
to be involved. We've been telling this several times privately and on 
the mailing lists (e.g. after the announcement of dropping the 
BrOffice.org name and switching to LibreOffice).


But our help is limited.

Interpersonal issues should be able to be solved among the people involved.

Decisions inside a local team or community about the tools they use and 
the way they work together should not involve the international 
community, unless they lead to problems in the relationship to the 
international community or restrictions to work with the international 
tools.


This has been my concern with the "wrong" mailing list (Gubros) and the 
"wrong" domain (.org.br).


It was not clear to me (and others looking from the outside) that both 
are interim solutions on your way from an mostly independent BrOffice 
community to the Brazilian part of the international LibreOffice community.


Reading that there are people in Brazil trying to keep up their 
independent community without seeing the positive aspects of being part 
of the international community leads to sad feelings:


LibreOffice *is* international, and even if everybody is free to decide 
how to work and discuss, we experienced something similar in the past:


Single persons or groups tried to draw interested newcomers or community 
members away from this international team, towards a working area with 
different focus. They used our infrastructure, pointed to their mailing 
lists instead of the official ones and so on.


Everybody should have the chance to contribute to LibreOffice directly - 
neither filtered by an NGO (as BrOffice times are over, I don't need any 
prove or denial in this area), nor redirected to different websites or 
mailing lists.


That's the reason why I want to see a clear statement on the website and 
in the wiki describing the .org.br website as interim solution until the 
content has been moved to the pt-br website.


If the website would contain a heading like "we're moving the content of 
this site to our new home http://pt-br.libreoffice.org"; and the 
broffice.org site would lead to this page too, I'm sure the Steering 
Committee would allow to use the external page for the time needed.


Of course you can link to resources on the interim site from each pt-br 
webpage (like "For more content ., please have a look at our old 
website, until the migration has been finished"). I think a prominent 
link from the main page to libreoffice.org.br might help your users not 
to feel lost in the transition, and this should not be a problem if the 
goal would be mentioned here too.


For the mailing list (Luiz told us, that you are already moving) I hope 
transistion is easier. I don't mind at all, if the well known list is 
still active.


But everybody should know that the people interested in LibreOffice and 
being part of the international community use the other list - like you 
already did for any other list, if I read the wiki right.

Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Paulo,


Le Wed, 11 May 2011 11:42:02 -0300,
Paulo de Souza Lima  a écrit :

> 2011/5/11 Charles-H. Schulz 
> 
> > Hello Paulo,
> >
> >
> Hello.
> 
> 
> > TDF will be satisfied when the whole community will be healthy and
> > able to contribute to LibreOffice.
> >
> >
> I'm not sure what you mean with "healthy and able to contribute to
> LibreOffice". I am telling you, since the begining of this mess, we
> ARE healthy, contributing and doing our job. I really still don't
> understand why you refuse to agree with that. The proof is in TDF
> wiki and websites, but I won't insist in this matter anymore, also.
> If you have a web browser and Google Translate, you can easily see it
> by yourself. Do it!

Paulo: calm down. :-) don't take each of my sentences as an attack.
What I mean by a healthy community is a community that does not have
open quarrels and arguments such as... the brazilian community. You
tell me the community is healthy, but it's not so clear to me. (and
there again I have to stop commenting because it quickly stops
being TDF's business). 

> 
> If some people who have "titles" in TDF like Olivier, Eliane e David,
> don't agree with that, that's their problem, not ours. Sadly, they
> think if they have those "titles", that makes them a kind of
> "special" community members. They aren't, in our point of view, and
> never will be.

Well, there is no title (yet) inside TDF. There are roles and
functions. With respect to our Brazilian friends, Olivier is a member
of the SC and Claudio is his deputy. 


> 
> And this recalls another concern of ours: there are 4 brazilians as
> TDF members/founders.

I count 3: Claudio, David and Olivier. 

>  Some of them can have a whole history of
> contributions to TDF, but also did a lot of disgusting things agaist
> the Brazilian Community. When you consider your meritocracy, you
> don't take this into consideration.

I think we do, look at our bylaws. 

> It's not fair to look only at the
> benefits and not to look at the injuries. Only one of them has an
> unconditional trust from the Brazilian Community 

So there I have to stop you right away. I hear about arguments in your
community but you would imagine if tomorrow one of these three founders
were to call itself "the Brazilian Community". That's a bit too easy,
and TDF will not take sides. We wish to work with the Brazilian
community as a whole, and while we cannot make you love each other, we
do expect courtesy and effectiveness when working with our Brazilian
friends. 

> and we have a lot of
> real good reasons for that. We have a perception that you hear too
> many people who are not alingned to the community's desires, and too
> less people who can give you a clearer vision of us.
> 
> But, as you have stated: it's not your job to decide this matter. But
> it IS YOUR JOB to consult some people from Brazilian Community asking
> for their opinions, in order to make a better decision on who
> deserves to be hired or not. I suggest you consider to accept more
> brazilian members, from the *real* community. 

We accept members based on their contributions only. 


> We can vote and
> indicate some names, if you wish, in order to make things balanced
> and fairer. 

That would not be meritocratic at all. That would be the return of the
old days of privileges. 


> This should be taken in consideration when you decide to
> "talk to brazilian community as a whole" as you're saying.

What I/we honestly try is to get feedback from everyone inside your
community. 

> 
> I will not be a candidate. I have submited my request a few weeks
> ago. It was deferred. Something about "we couldn't confirm your
> informations" or so. Maybe the person who decided it doesn't have a
> web browser neither knows how to use Google translate. It doesn't
> matter, I wish to give up.

You are welcome to submit it again. One comment though: writing on a
wiki is not the sole factor to get one's membership. So please don't be
disappointed and resubmit anytime. 

Best,
Charles. 



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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[Paulo de Souza Lima]

2011/5/11 Charles-H. Schulz 

> Hello Paulo,
>
>
Hello.


> TDF will be satisfied when the whole community will be healthy and able
> to contribute to LibreOffice.
>
>
I'm not sure what you mean with "healthy and able to contribute to
LibreOffice". I am telling you, since the begining of this mess, we ARE
healthy, contributing and doing our job. I really still don't understand why
you refuse to agree with that. The proof is in TDF wiki and websites, but I
won't insist in this matter anymore, also. If you have a web browser and
Google Translate, you can easily see it by yourself. Do it!

If some people who have "titles" in TDF like Olivier, Eliane e David, don't
agree with that, that's their problem, not ours. Sadly, they think if they
have those "titles", that makes them a kind of "special" community members.
They aren't, in our point of view, and never will be.

And this recalls another concern of ours: there are 4 brazilians as TDF
members/founders. Some of them can have a whole history of contributions to
TDF, but also did a lot of disgusting things agaist the Brazilian Community.
When you consider your meritocracy, you don't take this into consideration.
It's not fair to look only at the benefits and not to look at the
injuries. Only one of them has an unconditional trust from the Brazilian
Community and we have a lot of real good reasons for that. We have a
perception that you hear too many people who are not alingned to the
community's desires, and too less people who can give you a clearer vision
of us.

But, as you have stated: it's not your job to decide this matter. But it IS
YOUR JOB to consult some people from Brazilian Community asking for their
opinions, in order to make a better decision on who deserves to be hired or
not. I suggest you consider to accept more brazilian members, from the
*real* community. We can vote and indicate some names, if you wish, in order
to make things balanced and fairer. This should be taken in consideration
when you decide to "talk to brazilian community as a whole" as you're
saying.

I will not be a candidate. I have submited my request a few weeks ago. It
was deferred. Something about "we couldn't confirm your informations" or so.
Maybe the person who decided it doesn't have a web browser neither knows how
to use Google translate. It doesn't matter, I wish to give up.


> Charles.


See you around.
-- 

Paulo de Souza Lima
Técnico em Eletrônica e Administrador
http://www.pasl.net.br
http://almalivre.wordpress.com
Curitiba - PR
Linux User #432358
Ubuntu User #28729

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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Hello Paulo,

Le Wed, 11 May 2011 09:28:58 -0300,
Paulo de Souza Lima  a écrit :

> 2011/5/11 Charles-H. Schulz 
> 
> > Paulo,
> >
> >
> Good morning, Charles,
> 
> 
> > This is just a comment from my side as you keep asking a question
> > that I feel I had answered before, but you believe I haven't, so
> > let me answer to the question again. It's about your question on
> > the North American LibreOffice DVD team and website and the
> > Brazilian one.
> >
> > Take a look at the two website. The NA LibreOffice DVD team has a
> > website that is focused on a DVD project, that encompasses multiple
> > languages. It is not a traditional "native-language" team, to use
> > the OOo parlance, and it does not try to even harbour the full
> > TDF / LO colours and logos. The NA DVD team has formed and debated
> > here, on this mailing lists and on others (website and discuss);
> > they did this in the open for everyone to see, the SC knew about
> > (or could not ignore it as it was happening here), and they were
> > generally very delicate about trademarks, using of terms, etc.
> >
> 
> Ok. I understand that, BUT, in my point of view, this issue was about
> the domain itself and not about the content in it.

It was not just the domain.

> There are two different situations here, but the problem is the same:
> the use of TDF brand in the domains name outside TDF structure. I
> won't insist in this matter anymore, ok?

Okay. 


> 
> Look: I don't want to fight anymore, we shall solve this matter right
> now, or I quit. I am wasting much time here, and TDF nor Libreoffice
> pay my bills. I should remind you I am a *volunteer* here, trying to
> show you that we are doing our job, and you are questioning our
> behavior based on partial evidences.

I'm a volunteer too, Paulo, most of us are. 

> And, yes, I think someone must
> have told you about that "behind the scenes", because your claims
> began to arrise a few days after we have done some changes in
> directions up here. 

That was not intended. I reacted after Luiz pointed to
libreoffice.org.br...

> Those are the same people who could question us
> about that decision, or remind us to talk to you before we do that,
> but they prefered to do things in another way, puting you and us into
> a battle. I think you were involved into a fight you could solve in a
> different way.
> 
> I think with a little piece of good will from both of us, this
> unpleasant situation can be reverted, BUT, I will not admit we were
> doing something extremely wrong. 

Oh I don't think you were doing something "extremely wrong", that's not
what I would call it, but it was still wrong in several respects and we
feel it could have led to other wrong things. 


> Maybe we had made some decisions
> that were mistaken because of the lack of contributors in some areas,
> including those who could question the decision of using libreoffice
> brand in the domain name. But again: you could question us in a
> different manner, and we would be happy to fix our mistakes, as we
> have already done. You have to notice that we are abruptly switching
> many of our contents and mailing lists right now, harming a lot of
> contributors and users, because of YOUR requests. This harm is much
> more deeper for us than the harm for TDF of waiting a little more
> time to request the ownership and the redirection of that domains.
> But it is being done because of your urgency and your distrust on us.
> You could also have requested us a schedule for this to be done, but
> you prefered to force us into a extreme situation.
> 
> That's OK. It doesn't matter anymore. It's done.

thank you. 

> 
> 
> >
> > I hope you understand the difference better now. Also, I would
> > like, as another general comment, to remind you and everyone that
> > Claudio is also part of the core team of TDF. I am surprised that
> > he hasn't been more active on this particular topic. That's just my
> > feeling, perhaps I'm wrong. TDF does not take sides, were it
> > between ALTA and Colibre. Frankly we can't, we shouldn't, we won't.
> > It's not our job. The situation is what it is, it's unfortunate,
> > but we want to deal with the Brazilian community as a whole. It's a
> > very tempting for you or others, to think TDF will take sides, even
> > "secretly". What TDF wants is to work and help the community work,
> > that's it. We're not interested in local fightings, and should I
> > need to write it again, the Brazilian community is most welcome
> > here. It is your home.
> >
> 
> I am also surprised about the lack of participation of Olivier in this
> discussion. Claudio has his own personal problems and I can't speak
> for him. And, in fact, it seems there's only me in here, trying to
> show you what was happening and I am NOT a TDF member. Even other
> Brazilian TDF members aren't here. There are you, TDF founders, and
> me, an ordinary contributor. I say again: I am just a *volunteer* who
> loves to contribute to Libreoffice.

So again

Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[luiz]

Hi,

> Possibly, but again we cannot take sides. The bottomline is, Claudio
> should have talked to us. 
Sorry, but this is not what is seems. You only to knowCláudio, only
attacks and cites Cláudio,why? It seems you have a speech ready, at
least is the impression I got.
> Anyway, as for Colibre, my point is the same:
> TDF deals and works with the Brazilian community as a whole, not with
> one specific "church". 
And who is asking this?
> So, if it's a name, a NGO, anything, we will
> deal with the Brazilian community as a whole with the same respect and
> rights, as well as the same duties that are vested unto any other
> community.
Ok, Charles.We are not here asking for exclusivity. Understand, Colibre
(LibreOffice Community) is a simple name. A step by to replace BrOffice
for LibreOffice on the projects that already existing in Brazil. You are
proposing to kill anything that existed before? I hope not.

I'm doing the best I can to resolve the main issue here. Cláudio already
spoke with Florian (in PVT). The domains will be redirected to the TDF
structure. Since yesterday we began to use the list
discus...@pt-br.libreoffice.org to replace @gubro-br (BrOffice
structure). I am awaiting a Florian position in relation to my request
on a mailing list for the Journal and then the migration is complete (at
least for the mailing lists). After that, we will not have any "external
list" in action here in Brazil.

About domains,I think we can close this issue. I propose that the SC
make a meeting with former members of the NGO BrOffice (not only
Cláudio) and decide what to do.

Regards,


Luiz Oliveira

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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[Paulo de Souza Lima]

2011/5/11 Charles-H. Schulz 

> Paulo,
>
>
Good morning, Charles,


> This is just a comment from my side as you keep asking a question that
> I feel I had answered before, but you believe I haven't, so let me
> answer to the question again. It's about your question on the North
> American LibreOffice DVD team and website and the Brazilian one.
>
> Take a look at the two website. The NA LibreOffice DVD team has a
> website that is focused on a DVD project, that encompasses multiple
> languages. It is not a traditional "native-language" team, to use the
> OOo parlance, and it does not try to even harbour the full TDF / LO
> colours and logos. The NA DVD team has formed and debated here, on this
> mailing lists and on others (website and discuss); they did this in the
> open for everyone to see, the SC knew about (or could not ignore it as
> it was happening here), and they were generally very delicate about
> trademarks, using of terms, etc.
>

Ok. I understand that, BUT, in my point of view, this issue was about the
domain itself and not about the content in it.
There are two different situations here, but the problem is the same: the
use of TDF brand in the domains name outside TDF structure. I won't insist
in this matter anymore, ok?

Look: I don't want to fight anymore, we shall solve this matter right now,
or I quit. I am wasting much time here, and TDF nor Libreoffice pay my
bills. I should remind you I am a *volunteer* here, trying to show you that
we are doing our job, and you are questioning our behavior based on partial
evidences. And, yes, I think someone must have told you about that "behind
the scenes", because your claims began to arrise a few days after we have
done some changes in directions up here. Those are the same people who could
question us about that decision, or remind us to talk to you before we do
that, but they prefered to do things in another way, puting you and us into
a battle. I think you were involved into a fight you could solve in a
different way.

I think with a little piece of good will from both of us, this unpleasant
situation can be reverted, BUT, I will not admit we were doing something
extremely wrong. Maybe we had made some decisions that were mistaken because
of the lack of contributors in some areas, including those who could
question the decision of using libreoffice brand in the domain name. But
again: you could question us in a different manner, and we would be happy to
fix our mistakes, as we have already done. You have to notice that we are
abruptly switching many of our contents and mailing lists right now, harming
a lot of contributors and users, because of YOUR requests. This harm is much
more deeper for us than the harm for TDF of waiting a little more time to
request the ownership and the redirection of that domains. But it is being
done because of your urgency and your distrust on us. You could also have
requested us a schedule for this to be done, but you prefered to force us
into a extreme situation.

That's OK. It doesn't matter anymore. It's done.


>
> I hope you understand the difference better now. Also, I would like, as
> another general comment, to remind you and everyone that Claudio is
> also part of the core team of TDF. I am surprised that he hasn't been
> more active on this particular topic. That's just my feeling, perhaps
> I'm wrong. TDF does not take sides, were it between ALTA and Colibre.
> Frankly we can't, we shouldn't, we won't. It's not our job. The
> situation is what it is, it's unfortunate, but we want to deal with the
> Brazilian community as a whole. It's a very tempting for you or others,
> to think TDF will take sides, even "secretly". What TDF wants is to
> work and help the community work, that's it. We're not interested in
> local fightings, and should I need to write it again, the Brazilian
> community is most welcome here. It is your home.
>

I am also surprised about the lack of participation of Olivier in this
discussion. Claudio has his own personal problems and I can't speak for him.
And, in fact, it seems there's only me in here, trying to show you what was
happening and I am NOT a TDF member. Even other Brazilian TDF members aren't
here. There are you, TDF founders, and me, an ordinary contributor. I say
again: I am just a *volunteer* who loves to contribute to Libreoffice. I am
NOT looking for a job or a good political position in the "core" team, or in
my community. In fact, as I have stated before, I am wasting much more time
here than I have to dedicate to LibreOffice. From now on I will rethink my
personal priorities.

What you have requested is taking place, I suppose you will be satisfied,
won't you? I tryied to access libreoffice.org.br and it is still pointing to
our old website. I will request Claudio to switch it to
pt-br.libreoffice.org and that's my final contribution on this matter. I
don't have the ownership nor admin control on it, so I will not reply any
other question about that. Please refer 

Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Luiz,

Possibly, but again we cannot take sides. The bottomline is, Claudio
should have talked to us. Anyway, as for Colibre, my point is the same:
TDF deals and works with the Brazilian community as a whole, not with
one specific "church". So, if it's a name, a NGO, anything, we will
deal with the Brazilian community as a whole with the same respect and
rights, as well as the same duties that are vested unto any other
community. 

Best,
Charles. 

Le Wed, 11 May 2011 08:28:32 -0300,
luiz  a écrit :

> Sorry, Charles, but it's not just that Claudio was in the shadows. We
> also have the David and Olivier there. And these two can not ignore
> what was discussed in open our local listings. Another thing, I think
> there is some confusion. Alta is a formal institution, from what I
> see. Colibre,however, is not. It was just a name we wanted to give to
> the Brazilian community to replace"Gubro (BrOffice Users Group),
> which is a very interesting local project in the dissemination of the
> product.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Luiz Oliveira
> 
> > Paulo,
> >
> > This is just a comment from my side as you keep asking a question
> > that I feel I had answered before, but you believe I haven't, so
> > let me answer to the question again. It's about your question on
> > the North American LibreOffice DVD team and website and the
> > Brazilian one. 
> >
> > Take a look at the two website. The NA LibreOffice DVD team has a
> > website that is focused on a DVD project, that encompasses multiple
> > languages. It is not a traditional "native-language" team, to use
> > the OOo parlance, and it does not try to even harbour the full
> > TDF / LO colours and logos. The NA DVD team has formed and debated
> > here, on this mailing lists and on others (website and discuss);
> > they did this in the open for everyone to see, the SC knew about
> > (or could not ignore it as it was happening here), and they were
> > generally very delicate about trademarks, using of terms, etc. 
> >
> > I hope you understand the difference better now. Also, I would
> > like, as another general comment, to remind you and everyone that
> > Claudio is also part of the core team of TDF. I am surprised that
> > he hasn't been more active on this particular topic. That's just my
> > feeling, perhaps I'm wrong. TDF does not take sides, were it
> > between ALTA and Colibre. Frankly we can't, we shouldn't, we won't.
> > It's not our job. The situation is what it is, it's unfortunate,
> > but we want to deal with the Brazilian community as a whole. It's a
> > very tempting for you or others, to think TDF will take sides, even
> > "secretly". What TDF wants is to work and help the community work,
> > that's it. We're not interested in local fightings, and should I
> > need to write it again, the Brazilian community is most welcome
> > here. It is your home.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Charles.
> >
> 
> 



-- 
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Membre du Comité exécutif
The Document Foundation.

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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[luiz]

Sorry, Charles, but it's not just that Claudio was in the shadows. We
also have the David and Olivier there. And these two can not ignore what
was discussed in open our local listings. Another thing, I think there
is some confusion. Alta is a formal institution, from what I see.
Colibre,however, is not. It was just a name we wanted to give to the
Brazilian community to replace"Gubro (BrOffice Users Group), which is a
very interesting local project in the dissemination of the product.

Regards,

Luiz Oliveira

> Paulo,
>
> This is just a comment from my side as you keep asking a question that
> I feel I had answered before, but you believe I haven't, so let me
> answer to the question again. It's about your question on the North
> American LibreOffice DVD team and website and the Brazilian one. 
>
> Take a look at the two website. The NA LibreOffice DVD team has a
> website that is focused on a DVD project, that encompasses multiple
> languages. It is not a traditional "native-language" team, to use the
> OOo parlance, and it does not try to even harbour the full TDF / LO
> colours and logos. The NA DVD team has formed and debated here, on this
> mailing lists and on others (website and discuss); they did this in the
> open for everyone to see, the SC knew about (or could not ignore it as
> it was happening here), and they were generally very delicate about
> trademarks, using of terms, etc. 
>
> I hope you understand the difference better now. Also, I would like, as
> another general comment, to remind you and everyone that Claudio is
> also part of the core team of TDF. I am surprised that he hasn't been
> more active on this particular topic. That's just my feeling, perhaps
> I'm wrong. TDF does not take sides, were it between ALTA and Colibre.
> Frankly we can't, we shouldn't, we won't. It's not our job. The
> situation is what it is, it's unfortunate, but we want to deal with the
> Brazilian community as a whole. It's a very tempting for you or others,
> to think TDF will take sides, even "secretly". What TDF wants is to
> work and help the community work, that's it. We're not interested in
> local fightings, and should I need to write it again, the Brazilian
> community is most welcome here. It is your home.
>
> Best,
>
> Charles.
>


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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Ok, i cut the thread down quite a LOT.  The message seems to be 
1.  That the domains and websites are safe according to Paulo, Clovis and 
Bernhard (details differ but result is that things are safe)

2.  The community and individuals are doing a gradual change-over to the new 
names in a smooth gradual way as laid out in much detail in many posts to this 
list.
3.  Some redirects have gone a bit wrong  and there are a few errors that may 
or 
may not be deliberate.  This is normal and it's normal to be annoyed about it 
but it 'just' needs fixing.  

4.  Some people are not great at working with people but are superb at getting 
on with tasks they perceive as being vital.  Again, that is normal.  Hopefully 
we can fix some possibly wrong moves once the community has decided what needs 
to be done.  If what has already been done is too different then hopefully we 
can move to what the community has decided.  

5.  We need to stop panicking and doing "knee jerk reactions" because (despite 
all the excitement) things seem to be progressing  quite well!!
Good luck and regards from
Tom :)






From: Paulo de Souza Lima 
To: marketing@libreoffice.org
Sent: Wed, 11 May, 2011 2:32:57
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

2011/5/10 Bernhard Dippold 

> Hi Paulo, all,
>

Hi.


> Paulo S. Lima wrote:
> > 2011/5/9 Tom Davies 
> >
> > > [...]
> > >
> > > Paulo, is there a danger of losing the Brazilian websites due to 
> > > Brazilian 
>law?  If that danger does exist then is it a problem that needs to be solved 
>urgently?
> > >
> >
> > The websites itself? No. Domains? maybe. Until the NGO is not completely 
>undone (legaly talking...) the domains are safe. Once the NGO is competely 
>over, 
>the domain must be transfered to another NGO (and it MUST be an NGO, not a 
>person or a private company).
>
> If I understand you right, the domains have to be owned by an NGO, or they
> don't exist / are not accessible on the web.
>

No.Every domain registration has a time to expire. When expiring is
closing, the owner receives a message about it and, if he wants, he pays
another fare and maintain that domain for another period of time (from 1 to
3 years, i think).

If NGO ends its activities,domain will remain in it's name, until expiration. 
After that, it will be available for anyone (who has anlegalized brazilian NGO) 
to register it.

>
> And if they exist, Brazilian people know by their extension (.org.br), that 
>they
> relate to an NGO dedicated to LibreOffice and TDF.
>
> When the present NGO is undone, the website will become inactive.
>

No, the correct situation is: when the domain paid period expire.


  ... [lots of important comments that could (mostly) be in separate 
threads including mention of a redirect] ... 

That's part of our strategy to switch from BrOffice to Libreoffice trade
mark. The passes to slightly switch without chock people were: 1 - Put an
advertise redirecting to the old website (but with the new domain). 2 - Move
the domain to pt-br.libreoffice.org as soon as the most accessed content
were migrated to TDF. 3 - End up the old website moving the remaining
content to TDF or deleting stuff we don't need.

  ... [again, lots of important comments that could (mostly) be in  
separate threads] ... 

Many thanks for allowing us to tell you our point of view. You are the first
to do it. I expect more people begin to dialogue with us, instead of
fighting us. We don't want to fight anybody. Brazilians are friendly people
who love peace, fun and joy. This situation is very unpleasant.

Kind regards

<http://pt-br.libreoffice.org>
Paulo de Souza Lima
Técnico em Eletrônica e Administrador
http://www.pasl.net.br
http://almalivre.wordpress.com
Curitiba - PR
Linux User #432358
Ubuntu User #28729
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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[Charles-H. Schulz]

Paulo,

This is just a comment from my side as you keep asking a question that
I feel I had answered before, but you believe I haven't, so let me
answer to the question again. It's about your question on the North
American LibreOffice DVD team and website and the Brazilian one. 

Take a look at the two website. The NA LibreOffice DVD team has a
website that is focused on a DVD project, that encompasses multiple
languages. It is not a traditional "native-language" team, to use the
OOo parlance, and it does not try to even harbour the full TDF / LO
colours and logos. The NA DVD team has formed and debated here, on this
mailing lists and on others (website and discuss); they did this in the
open for everyone to see, the SC knew about (or could not ignore it as
it was happening here), and they were generally very delicate about
trademarks, using of terms, etc. 

I hope you understand the difference better now. Also, I would like, as
another general comment, to remind you and everyone that Claudio is
also part of the core team of TDF. I am surprised that he hasn't been
more active on this particular topic. That's just my feeling, perhaps
I'm wrong. TDF does not take sides, were it between ALTA and Colibre.
Frankly we can't, we shouldn't, we won't. It's not our job. The
situation is what it is, it's unfortunate, but we want to deal with the
Brazilian community as a whole. It's a very tempting for you or others,
to think TDF will take sides, even "secretly". What TDF wants is to
work and help the community work, that's it. We're not interested in
local fightings, and should I need to write it again, the Brazilian
community is most welcome here. It is your home.

Best,

Charles.

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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[Clovis Tristão]

Hi,

I agree with Paul.
Peace and love, let's use all this energy to the promotion LibreOffice the
world.

Cheers,

Clóvis

On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 10:32 PM, Paulo de Souza Lima <
paulo.s.l...@gmail.com> wrote:

> 2011/5/10 Bernhard Dippold 
>
> > Hi Paulo, all,
> >
>
> Hi.
>
>
> >
> > sorry for stepping in here so late, but I don't understand what
> > you mean - so I'd rather like to ask instead of rely on possibly
> > wrong assumptions...
> >
> > Paulo S. Lima wrote:
> > > 2011/5/9 Tom Davies 
> > >
> > > > [...]
> > > >
> > > > Paulo, is there a danger of losing the Brazilian websites due to
> > Brazilian
> > > > law?  If that danger does exist then is it a problem that needs to be
> > solved
> > > > urgently?
> > > >
> > >
> > > The websites itself? No. Domains? maybe. Until the NGO is not
> completely
> > > undone (legaly talking...) the domains are safe. Once the NGO is
> > competely
> > > over, the domain must be transfered to another NGO (and it MUST be an
> > NGO,
> > > not a person or a private company).
> >
> > If I understand you right, the domains have to be owned by an NGO, or
> they
> > don't exist / are not accessible on the web.
> >
>
> No. Every domain registration has a time to expire. When expiring is
> closing, the owner receives a message about it and, if he wants, he pays
> another fare and maintain that domain for another period of time (from 1 to
> 3 years, i think).
>
> If NGO ends its activities, domain will remain in tis name, until
> expiration. After that, it will be available for anyone (who has an
> legalized brazilian NGO) to register it.
>
>
> >
> > And if they exist, Brazilian people know by their extension (.org.br),
> > that they
> > relate to an NGO dedicated to LibreOffice and TDF.
> >
> > When the present NGO is undone, the website will become inactive.
> >
>
> No, the correct situation is: when the domain payed period expire.
>
>
> >
> > I don't know if this is a real issue to the Brazilian community and their
> > users,
> > as I strongly hope that until this time the move towards the br-pt.LibO
> > pages
> > has been finished.
> >
>
> After all this mess, We're gonna move what we can move right away, and
> place
> the rest somewhere. That's not the best choice, but is the one we can do.
>
>
> >
> > But this question should be left to the LibO/TDF community in Brazil, as
> > they
> > are the ones to know their users best.
> >
> >
> That's what I'm saying since the begining, but some people pretend not to
> understand and prefer coertion instead negotiation.
>
>
> > The idea of securing the website for later times comes to my mind, but
> our
> > trademark policy states clearly that nobody is allowed to use such a
> > website
> > without agreement by the trademark owner, so we can hinder every evil
> > player
> > from using the site.
> >
>
> Ok. But I ask you again: Why are there two different treatments to
> North-american community and brazilian community? And this is an issue that
> affects a lot of things, including TDF claims to be a transparent and
> meritocratic foundation. But I will not begin a new discussion on this
> matter.
>
>
> > > I suppose that ALTA could "kindly" offer
> > > to do that, but if you decide it it will be a proof that TDF members
> are
> > not
> > > reliable for Brazilian Community. Sorry for these words, but it's the
> > crude
> > > truth.
> >
> > And here I am a bit lost:
> >
> > I don't know ALTA, but the way you propose to use them as NGO for the
> > website
> > sounds to me, that they don't have the trust of the Brazilian community.
> >
>
> Well, let me draw it for you:
> Olivier and David are founder members of TDF. They were part of the
> BrOffice.org NGO who were doing things that Brazilian Community don't
> agree.
> Those things include asking for Claudio's dismissing to TDF, disregard many
> of BrOffice.org bylaws (such support our community's annual meeting, act
> like a proxy between the community and TDF, filter who was able to became
> Broffice.org member, and so on). That's because BrOffice.org was
> disassembled: By Brazilian laws, when an Association like that loose their
> goals, it can be ended up if some of their members ask for that in justice.
> That's because the community disregard Olivier, David, Gustavo Pacheco,
> Eliane Domingos and other people. That's not me who is telling that. This
> is
> well documented in the internet, in Mailing lists, blogs and in an petition
> we made which has almost 1000 signatures. There are many people, great
> names
> of FOSS and ODF in Brazil who are eye witness of what has done.
>
> When BrOffice.org ended up, they founded ALTA as an Association (an NGO).
> And we know they've done that in order to redo there, what they were doing
> in the NGO BrOffice.org. Our concern is they begin to claim to be the
> representatives of TDF in Brazil, including the "official" brazilian
> community representatives, just like they tried to do before.
>
>
> >
> > If this is true, I think Charles a

Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[Paulo de Souza Lima]

2011/5/10 Bernhard Dippold 

> Hi Paulo, all,
>

Hi.


>
> sorry for stepping in here so late, but I don't understand what
> you mean - so I'd rather like to ask instead of rely on possibly
> wrong assumptions...
>
> Paulo S. Lima wrote:
> > 2011/5/9 Tom Davies 
> >
> > > [...]
> > >
> > > Paulo, is there a danger of losing the Brazilian websites due to
> Brazilian
> > > law?  If that danger does exist then is it a problem that needs to be
> solved
> > > urgently?
> > >
> >
> > The websites itself? No. Domains? maybe. Until the NGO is not completely
> > undone (legaly talking...) the domains are safe. Once the NGO is
> competely
> > over, the domain must be transfered to another NGO (and it MUST be an
> NGO,
> > not a person or a private company).
>
> If I understand you right, the domains have to be owned by an NGO, or they
> don't exist / are not accessible on the web.
>

No. Every domain registration has a time to expire. When expiring is
closing, the owner receives a message about it and, if he wants, he pays
another fare and maintain that domain for another period of time (from 1 to
3 years, i think).

If NGO ends its activities, domain will remain in tis name, until
expiration. After that, it will be available for anyone (who has an
legalized brazilian NGO) to register it.


>
> And if they exist, Brazilian people know by their extension (.org.br),
> that they
> relate to an NGO dedicated to LibreOffice and TDF.
>
> When the present NGO is undone, the website will become inactive.
>

No, the correct situation is: when the domain payed period expire.


>
> I don't know if this is a real issue to the Brazilian community and their
> users,
> as I strongly hope that until this time the move towards the br-pt.LibO
> pages
> has been finished.
>

After all this mess, We're gonna move what we can move right away, and place
the rest somewhere. That's not the best choice, but is the one we can do.


>
> But this question should be left to the LibO/TDF community in Brazil, as
> they
> are the ones to know their users best.
>
>
That's what I'm saying since the begining, but some people pretend not to
understand and prefer coertion instead negotiation.


> The idea of securing the website for later times comes to my mind, but our
> trademark policy states clearly that nobody is allowed to use such a
> website
> without agreement by the trademark owner, so we can hinder every evil
> player
> from using the site.
>

Ok. But I ask you again: Why are there two different treatments to
North-american community and brazilian community? And this is an issue that
affects a lot of things, including TDF claims to be a transparent and
meritocratic foundation. But I will not begin a new discussion on this
matter.


> > I suppose that ALTA could "kindly" offer
> > to do that, but if you decide it it will be a proof that TDF members are
> not
> > reliable for Brazilian Community. Sorry for these words, but it's the
> crude
> > truth.
>
> And here I am a bit lost:
>
> I don't know ALTA, but the way you propose to use them as NGO for the
> website
> sounds to me, that they don't have the trust of the Brazilian community.
>

Well, let me draw it for you:
Olivier and David are founder members of TDF. They were part of the
BrOffice.org NGO who were doing things that Brazilian Community don't agree.
Those things include asking for Claudio's dismissing to TDF, disregard many
of BrOffice.org bylaws (such support our community's annual meeting, act
like a proxy between the community and TDF, filter who was able to became
Broffice.org member, and so on). That's because BrOffice.org was
disassembled: By Brazilian laws, when an Association like that loose their
goals, it can be ended up if some of their members ask for that in justice.
That's because the community disregard Olivier, David, Gustavo Pacheco,
Eliane Domingos and other people. That's not me who is telling that. This is
well documented in the internet, in Mailing lists, blogs and in an petition
we made which has almost 1000 signatures. There are many people, great names
of FOSS and ODF in Brazil who are eye witness of what has done.

When BrOffice.org ended up, they founded ALTA as an Association (an NGO).
And we know they've done that in order to redo there, what they were doing
in the NGO BrOffice.org. Our concern is they begin to claim to be the
representatives of TDF in Brazil, including the "official" brazilian
community representatives, just like they tried to do before.


>
> If this is true, I think Charles and Florian misunderstood your posting.
>
> So please assure my interpretation:
>
> The Brazilian community *doesn't* want ALTA to be the community's NGO.
>
> Is this right or wrong?
>

That's right. More precisely: if they want to make money with libreoffice,
or act as a corporation, that's not of community's business. What we don't
want is they becoming an "official" representative of TDF and Libreoffice in
Brazil, with an "implicit authority" to give orders or co

Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[Paulo de Souza Lima]

2011/5/10 Cor Nouws 

> luiz wrote (10-05-11 14:24)
>
>> [...]
>>
>
> Hi all,
>
> First sorry: I only read some parts of the thread.
> At some moments I have the impression that choices that people are making /
> directions they start to work in, are a bit vigorous, partly based on what
> they think that others mean. Rather than on full understanding, or even
> better: on a feeling of mutual interest.
>
> I might be wrong, but if there is some of it in this discussion, would it
> be possible to consider this careful? We are not in a position that things
> have to be sorted out immediately, are we? So a few days won't hurt anyone.
> Misunderstanding might well harm. I am all for finding out what unites
> first, and from that position look to what is different and needs to be
> handled appropriate.
>
> Maybe this is easy to say for a cool blooded western European ;-) but
> anyhow, I really wanted to share this.
>
>
Finally, some words of wisdom...

Thanks.


> Kind regards,
> Cor
>
>
Best regards.


-- 

Paulo de Souza Lima
Técnico em Eletrônica e Administrador
http://www.pasl.net.br
http://almalivre.wordpress.com
Curitiba - PR
Linux User #432358
Ubuntu User #28729

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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[Cor Nouws]

luiz wrote (10-05-11 14:24)

[...]


Hi all,

First sorry: I only read some parts of the thread.
At some moments I have the impression that choices that people are 
making / directions they start to work in, are a bit vigorous, partly 
based on what they think that others mean. Rather than on full 
understanding, or even better: on a feeling of mutual interest.


I might be wrong, but if there is some of it in this discussion, would 
it be possible to consider this careful? We are not in a position that 
things have to be sorted out immediately, are we? So a few days won't 
hurt anyone. Misunderstanding might well harm. I am all for finding out 
what unites first, and from that position look to what is different and 
needs to be handled appropriate.


Maybe this is easy to say for a cool blooded western European ;-) but 
anyhow, I really wanted to share this.


Kind regards,
Cor

--
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 - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation -


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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[luiz]

Hi all,

People who should be here is still uttered quietly in the shadows. Sorry!

I'll try to be practical again. Like Paulo, I don't care about domains.
I'm not the owner of any domain, was not associated with the NGO
BrOffice, therefore do not know what was agreed between the people who
decided to kill it. The Brazilian Community of LibreOffice, all users
regardless of formal institution, has nothing about it.

I talked to Claudio yesterday by email and he agreed to redirect all
domains ".org.br" to TDF's  infra.

But, personally, I don't agree to pass the domains to any Brazilian
entity, only for the TDF. It's safer!!

Another thing, the question of parallel universes is a great nonsense or
a terrible misunderstanding. The only filter that we haveis the
language. Many can't communicate in English. I do it badly and badly. I
can assure you the general feeling here is we belong to a worldwide
community called The Document Foundation that develops a great product,
LibreOfficewhich we are most proud.Everything we do here is to promote
these brands (TDF and LibreOffice), nothing more than that.

I hope to end this discussion as soon as possible because we have much
to do yet.

About the magazine:Florian, just give us a mailing list within the TDF
structure and we migrated immediately. My suggestion:
revi...@pt-br.libreoffice.org

Thank's a lot,

Luiz Oliveira

> Hello Paulo,
>
> Paulo de Souza Lima wrote on 2011-05-10 03.21:
>
>> The websites itself? No. Domains? maybe. Until the NGO is not completely
>> undone (legaly talking...) the domains are safe. Once the NGO is
>> competely
>> over, the domain must be transfered to another NGO (and it MUST be an
>> NGO,
>
> as said, I talked to our ISP, and they offer a trustee service for
> Brazilian domains, so we can transfer the domain to someone holding it
> for TDF. I will verify again with them based on the information you
> gave me (NGO needed), but in case that's indeed possible, wouldn't it
> be the best solution, to have the domain names independent from one
> entity?
>
>> not a person or a private company). I suppose that ALTA could
>> "kindly" offer
>> to do that, but if you decide it it will be a proof that TDF members
>> are not
>> reliable for Brazilian Community. Sorry for these words, but it's the
>> crude
>> truth.
>
> I am happy to make a trustee contact with one of the Brazilian
> non-profit organizations, in case our provider does not offer a
> trustee service for .org.br domain names. I am also happy to show that
> trustee contract to the public then -- so there should be no risk for
> anyone, whether it's ALTA or another entity.
>
>> migration to TDF websites. As I stated before, personally, I really
>> don't
>> care who will own libreoffice.org.br domain name. And I think people
>> in the
>> community doesn't care at all. But as I said before: giving the
>
> I heard something different about that. I heard that the
> libreoffice.org.br domain cannot be given to us or put under TDF
> control, and I even read that some people are to hand out e-mail
> addresses @libreoffice.org.br. So, I am glad that you don't care who
> will own that domain name, but it seems not everyone shares that.
>
>> ownership to the people who are threatening us will be a shame and an
>> insult.
>
> Does the German association, that at the moment legally represents TDF
> until it is a legal entity by itself, threat you? If not, I guess you
> have no objections to us having a trustee contract with our provider
> to host the domain names, or if that is not possible, with any of the
> Brazilian NGOs. As said, I am happy to show that trustee contact in
> public then. Are there any objections to that?
>
>> But, yet, my first question is not answered: Why North American
>> Community
>> can use the brand in their domain name and Brazilian Community can't?
>> This
>> is a real strage behavior.
>
> I'll reply to that in your other mail soon.
>
>> And I have another question: Will we be allowed to use that brand in our
>> magazine, once it's a real contribution to Libreoffice marketing?
>
> We have a trademark policy in place that has been discussed and agreed
> upon in public, with everyone being able to contribute:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TradeMark_Policy
>
> So, legally spoken, you need permission to do so, but in general, I
> personally have no objection. If the project is introduced to the
> list, with everyone from the Community being able to join, so it's not
> a closed group, and it follows our open, transparent and meritocratic
> principles: Of course. You should formally ask as described in the
> Trademark Policy, but I have a feeling you might get a positive reply.
> :-)
>
> It is not about keeping all legal assets just for "us". "Us" is the
> Community, we decide together on how to use these, in the - you get it
> - open, transparent and meritocratic process. That decision is
> independent from individuals, and that's exactly why TDF has been
> set-up.

Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[Paulo de Souza Lima]

2011/5/10 Florian Effenberger 

> Hello Paulo,
>
> Paulo de Souza Lima wrote on 2011-05-10 03.21:
>
>  The websites itself? No. Domains? maybe. Until the NGO is not completely
>> undone (legaly talking...) the domains are safe. Once the NGO is competely
>> over, the domain must be transfered to another NGO (and it MUST be an NGO,
>>
>
> as said, I talked to our ISP, and they offer a trustee service for
> Brazilian domains, so we can transfer the domain to someone holding it for
> TDF. I will verify again with them based on the information you gave me (NGO
> needed), but in case that's indeed possible, wouldn't it be the best
> solution, to have the domain names independent from one entity?
>

Hi Florian. As I said before, that domain belongs to the NGO BrOffice.org.
Our Community doesn't have any control on it. If you want to negotiate the
transfer of the domain, you should talk to the owners, not with us. I
suppose Claudio could help you in this issue more than me.

But I will say it again: The Community is deliberating on it, in public
mailing lists (you can follow it if you wish). I have a strong feeling, that
the decision will be giving up of any use of libreoffice.org.br domain.


>
>  not a person or a private company). I suppose that ALTA could "kindly"
>> offer
>> to do that, but if you decide it it will be a proof that TDF members are
>> not
>> reliable for Brazilian Community. Sorry for these words, but it's the
>> crude
>> truth.
>>
>
> I am happy to make a trustee contact with one of the Brazilian non-profit
> organizations, in case our provider does not offer a trustee service for .
> org.br domain names. I am also happy to show that trustee contract to the
> public then -- so there should be no risk for anyone, whether it's ALTA or
> another entity.
>

That's your opinion. Do what you want. I don't care anymore.


>
>  migration to TDF websites. As I stated before, personally, I really don't
>> care who will own libreoffice.org.br domain name. And I think people in
>> the
>> community doesn't care at all. But as I said before: giving the
>>
>
> I heard something different about that. I heard that the
> libreoffice.org.br domain cannot be given to us or put under TDF control,
> and I even read that some people are to hand out e-mail addresses @
> libreoffice.org.br. So, I am glad that you don't care who will own that
> domain name, but it seems not everyone shares that.
>

Well, if you "heard that", I would like to know your sources. If there are
some people handling libreoffice.org.br emails, that's not of our business,
as we cannot control this domain. You have to understand that one thing is
the Brazilian Community, another different thing is the NGO. I am talking
about the Brazilian Community, I don't speak for the NGO or their owners.


>
>  ownership to the people who are threatening us will be a shame and an
>> insult.
>>
>
> Does the German association, that at the moment legally represents TDF
> until it is a legal entity by itself, threat you? If not, I guess you have
> no objections to us having a trustee contract with our provider to host the
> domain names, or if that is not possible, with any of the Brazilian NGOs. As
> said, I am happy to show that trustee contact in public then. Are there any
> objections to that?
>

For me, that's OK. And I think this is a real demonstration of good will.


>
>  But, yet, my first question is not answered: Why North American Community
>> can use the brand in their domain name and Brazilian Community can't? This
>> is a real strage behavior.
>>
>
> I'll reply to that in your other mail soon.
>

Thanks.


>
>  And I have another question: Will we be allowed to use that brand in our
>> magazine, once it's a real contribution to Libreoffice marketing?
>>
>
> We have a trademark policy in place that has been discussed and agreed upon
> in public, with everyone being able to contribute:
> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TradeMark_Policy
>
> So, legally spoken, you need permission to do so, but in general, I
> personally have no objection. If the project is introduced to the list, with
> everyone from the Community being able to join, so it's not a closed group,
> and it follows our open, transparent and meritocratic principles: Of course.
> You should formally ask as described in the Trademark Policy, but I have a
> feeling you might get a positive reply. :-)
>

That's another demonstration of good will. Thanks for that. In fact, we are
trying to follow the trademark policy line by line. And if anyone find
something wrong in our job, he/she is invited to call us and explain what is
happening. We will be happy in fix our fault.


>
> It is not about keeping all legal assets just for "us". "Us" is the
> Community, we decide together on how to use these, in the - you get it -
> open, transparent and meritocratic process. That decision is independent
> from individuals, and that's exactly why TDF has been set-up. We want to be
> independent, and 

Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: Brazilian domains

[Florian Effenberger]

Hello,

Florian Effenberger wrote on 2011-05-10 11.36:

as said, I talked to our ISP, and they offer a trustee service for
Brazilian domains, so we can transfer the domain to someone holding it
for TDF. I will verify again with them based on the information you gave
me (NGO needed), but in case that's indeed possible, wouldn't it be the
best solution, to have the domain names independent from one entity?


Paulo is right - we indeed need a local representative for .org.br, our 
ISP can only offer trustee service for the other Brazilian TLDs.


However, as said, I am happy to work out a trustee contract with any of 
the Brazilian NGOs and show it in public.


Florian

--
Florian Effenberger 
Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation
Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108
Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff

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