Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Hi Karoonboonyanan, I come from Malaysia. I do understand about the cultural issue regarding foot in people especially in the South East Asia area. Currently, from my observation, there is no setback from people in Malaysia with the usage of foot as GNOME logo. Most of the people that are interested to use GNOME did not really care about the foot logo, but some do ask question why foot was chosen as the logo. As for alternative of the foot logo, maybe GNOME team can come up with a simple G logo, that can be used for community that thinks foot is not nice to associated with. The same logo can then be used in the user interface, documentation, or other material when you are trying to introduce GNOME to them. On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 2:27 PM, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan t...@linux.thai.net wrote: Dear gnome-i18n, I believe this is an appropriate place to discuss about cultural conventions. How is a foot interpreted in your culture? Do you have the same issue I have met? In my culture, showing foot is considered rude. And the foot is not something to impress people who are totally new to GNOME. I am not asking to replace the foot logo. I just wish to have a secondary one which can also represent GNOME in my culture. But to convince people for the proposal, the effect of this issue may need some estimation. Note that icon theming also helps at some degree to avoid showing the foot. But when talking about something outside the UI, such as screenshots in documentations, web site logos, and any other kinds of promotions, we need more consistency. That is, we need some alternative logo which people recognize as GNOME. So, how about your culture? Is a foot considered offensive? Thanks, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ http://linux.thai.net/%7Ethep/ On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 4:18 PM, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan t...@linux.thai.net wrote: Hello, I have thought about this issue for a while whether it should be raised or not, as the logo has been in use for a long time. And I'm not sure if it's ever discussed anywhere about the cultural issue with the GNOME's foot logo, which may obstruct GNOME promotion in some way. In Thai culture, and I'm pretty sure also in the nearby regions, showing foot is considered rude, as it's the lowest part of the body. And a variation of the word 'foot' in Thai is used for scolding, in the tone close to f**k or b*tch in English. I have had hard times introducing GNOME to Thai people who never know about it before, and their reactions are awkward when seeing the foot logo. I have to explain that it's a footprint, not the foot itself. But that doesn't help much, as footprint also indicates treading with a foot. Some people simply refuse GNOME with the reason that it's impolite. That sometimes makes me feel uncomfortable to promote GNOME to new users as-is, or with distributions that try to keep upstream look-and-feels like Debian. But with Ubuntu or Fedora, where the main menu logo is replaced with something else, that's more OK. Just avoid letting them see the animated foot on Epiphany or Nautilus, until they are familiar with GNOME enough. I don't know if this is an issue for other cultures. Just want to raise it for awareness on an obstacle. Should there be an alternative logo for GNOME? For example, using a gnome head instead is OK. Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ http://linux.thai.net/%7Ethep/ ___ gnome-i18n mailing list gnome-i...@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n -- Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
El jue, 30-10-2008 a las 18:50 +, Calum Benson escribió: Even an open palm, like the GPE logo, is potentially offensive in some places. Talk to the hand? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk_to_the_hand_(expression) Claudio -- Claudio Saavedra csaave...@igalia.com Igalia -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Hello Theppitak, you raised an interesting question. There a few precedents, but I doubt those cases validate the solution you propose: The first precedent that comes to mind is the reason the cheap sedan from USSR was named Lada(archaic Slavic for beautiful girl) instead of the original Zhiguli(mountains in the area the car factory was build by Fiat) because it was phonetically too close to Gigolo. Another one is the Firefox in fox hating counties. This one is more ridiculous then the previous one -- firefox is not a fox, but a red Panda(unrelated to the entire dog family to which the real fox belongs). I've mentioned those two examples in the wain attempt to prove that some (many/most) of the cultural sensitivities are ridiculous to the point of being foony. When I saw foot(long, long time ago) as a Gnome Desktop emblem I was not happy. I thought that the stinkiest part of the human body did not deserve to be an emblem of the one of the most important GNU projects. It had nothing to do with the cultural(Russian) background, it was my personal reaction. I am still a Gnome bigot and that Foot does not bother me much anymore (all emblems are stupid). I even find it kinda cool now - rebellious, in-your-face sort of thing. Please, please think twice, trice, ... before claiming cultural differences/problems. Please check if it is just you. PS. To me, the good example of culturally insensitive emblem would be the old indo-europen symbol for the raising sun (kolovrat in Slavic). The next in line is the sickle-and-hammer variant. while modifying the core and redistributing it means that their modifications must also be distributed; I'm comfortable with that, and I also wouldn't mind if the project received a little more attention (since the current license bars the glade core from use in any commercial IDE), I love seeing it in Anjuta, I would love to see it all over the place :) Anjuta IDE is GPL and would be disadvantaged by proposed re-licensing. In a utopic situation, glade being available in bleeding edge IDEs could even help draw attention to Gtk+ and GNOME. It also wasnt exactly clearly stated that glade isn't just a static application but mainly a core library with plugins. Btw Im something of a fan of your work and admittedly a little flattered to receive your mail Richard :D Cheers, -Tristan ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-l...@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-l...@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-listGnome; while modifying the core and redistributing it means that their modifications must also be distributed; I'm comfortable with that, and I also wouldn't mind if the project received a little more attention (since the current license bars the glade core from use in any commercial IDE), I love seeing it in Anjuta, I would love to see it all over the place :) Anjuta IDE is GPL and would be disadvantaged by proposed re-licensing. In a utopic situation, glade being available in bleeding edge IDEs could even help draw attention to Gtk+ and GNOME. It also wasnt exactly clearly stated that glade isn't just a static application but mainly a core library with plugins. Btw Im something of a fan of your work and admittedly a little flattered to receive your mail Richard :D Cheers, -Tristan ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-l...@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-list ___ foundation-list mailing list foundation-l...@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-listLada; On Thu, 2008-10-30 at 13:27 +0700, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan wrote: Dear gnome-i18n, I believe this is an appropriate place to discuss about cultural conventions. How is a foot interpreted in your culture? Do you have the same issue I have met? In my culture, showing foot is considered rude. And the foot is not something to impress people who are totally new to GNOME. I am not asking to replace the foot logo. I just wish to have a secondary one which can also represent GNOME in my culture. But to convince people for the proposal, the effect of this issue may need some estimation. Note that icon theming also helps at some degree to avoid showing the foot. But when talking about something outside the UI, such as screenshots in documentations, web site logos, and any other kinds of promotions, we need more consistency. That is, we need some alternative logo which people recognize as GNOME. So, how about your culture? Is a foot considered offensive? Thanks, -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 9:51 PM, Petr Kovar pmko...@gnome.org wrote: Theppitak Karoonboonyanan t...@linux.thai.net, Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:10:32 +0700: On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 1:34 AM, Petr Kovar pmko...@gnome.org wrote: Theppitak Karoonboonyanan t...@linux.thai.net, Sat, 1 Nov 2008 14:00:06 +0700: Let me add another difference between the direct logo localization and the icon theming methods. Many Thai users don't like to use Thai translation. This is a popular taste, despite how much translation effort and quality assurance has been done. And that's why I put lower priority on translation than infrastructure development. (I joined the team after having done enough progress on GTK+, Pango, etc.) And by this practice, the logo localization will have limited effect, while theming still allows Thai people who choose English locale to change the logo. In summary, I'd propose icon theming + GNOME recognition of the secondary logo. Let me ask you, those Thai people with such a non-Thai-locale taste likely have a better understanding of English or Western culture, right? (At least that's what I suppose.) So the foot logo shouldn't be a big problem for them then? Please correct me if I'm wrong here. Nope.The taste is popular just because software are badly translated in general. And people feel more happy with original English terms than guessing the translators' whim on choosing inconsistent translated terms. Many are full with typos or misinterpretations, for example. Kind of bad impression. And that habit is not changed when they use GNOME, despite our heavy QA. There is nothing to do with English skill nor familiarity with Western cultures. Sorry, but I can't understand this. In my way of thinking, one has to have rather good English skills in order to use (American) English locale. And I'm pretty sure that good English skills necessarily come with some level of familiarity with Western culture. Not always true, here -in Egypt- most people prefere using English interfaces for reasons similar to that mentioned above, even if they don't understand most of it! Regards, -- Khaled -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Andy Fitzsimon schrieb: there's no escape from misinterpretation. just ask the gimp guys The escape is thorough evaluation. Ignorance can never be an escape. But I dont see a more thorugh evaluation happening because mostly ignorance is the plan. You can never be sure 100% that nobody is offended - but its the question of numbers. But the foot offends many people and would have stand out if that would have been a consideration. The question also is if GNOME wants to be prominent in internationalization. If it does, it would need to take some extra hurdles. What you can not do is just to claim to care about internationalization and then dont. Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 12:13 AM, Luis Villa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.gnome.org/images/screenshots/2400-jacob-big http://www.gnome.org/images/screenshots/2518-iain-big http://www.gnome.org/images/screenshots/2520-ole-big I always thought that was a fried egg. Huh. I wondered what happened to the fried egg. I wouldn't be opposed to changing the foot to be a flower but then there are all those people who read into the meaning and gestures behind flowers. there's no escape from misinterpretation. just ask the gimp guys -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Theppitak Karoonboonyanan wrote: On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 11:13 PM, Luis Villa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 11:08 AM, Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I suggested that you ask the Art team, and that you then take their suggestions to the board. +1. It's artweb-list, not art.gnome.org, I suppose? Easiest way to get hold of the GNOME artists is on themes-list: http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-themes-list The Tango mailing list might also be a good place to find artists: http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/tango-artists - Andreas -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 1:26 AM, Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe you could contact the GNOME Art team. They could make some suggestions. Don't focus on the Gnome idea. Few people think of small mythical beings when they think of GNOME. Unfortunately, I don't have a good suggestion. Some other form of G, maybe? In my vague memory, some GNOME 1.x versions used to use a flower logo at the main menu. And after some search, I've found some evidences: http://www.gnome.org/images/screenshots/2400-jacob-big http://www.gnome.org/images/screenshots/2518-iain-big http://www.gnome.org/images/screenshots/2520-ole-big I don't know the reason behind this. And GDM also provides a flower theme in its stock. Probably, it associates with garden gnomes? Anyway, can we use the flower as a secondary logo for GNOME? Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On 6 Nov 2008, at 10:37, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan wrote: On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 1:26 AM, Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe you could contact the GNOME Art team. They could make some suggestions. Don't focus on the Gnome idea. Few people think of small mythical beings when they think of GNOME. Unfortunately, I don't have a good suggestion. Some other form of G, maybe? In my vague memory, some GNOME 1.x versions used to use a flower logo at the main menu. And after some search, I've found some evidences: Ah yes. During our GNOME 1.2 usability study, some of our participants memorably asked what's the fried egg for? :) Other than that, a (well-designed) flower might be a pretty good call-- it has some history in GNOME, and it symbolises all those hippie values that are shared by the open source community :) Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]GNOME Desktop Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Calum Benson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 6 Nov 2008, at 10:37, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan wrote: In my vague memory, some GNOME 1.x versions used to use a flower logo at the main menu. And after some search, I've found some evidences: Ah yes. During our GNOME 1.2 usability study, some of our participants memorably asked what's the fried egg for? :) I see. It looks pretty much like a fried egg, too. :-) Other than that, a (well-designed) flower might be a pretty good call-- it has some history in GNOME, and it symbolises all those hippie values that are shared by the open source community :) Probably, elongating the petals helps? Before: http://linux.thai.net/~thep/shots/gnome-logo/flower-1.4.svg After: http://linux.thai.net/~thep/shots/gnome-logo/flower-long.svg -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Thu, 2008-11-06 at 17:37 +0700, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan wrote: On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 1:26 AM, Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe you could contact the GNOME Art team. They could make some suggestions. Don't focus on the Gnome idea. Few people think of small mythical beings when they think of GNOME. Unfortunately, I don't have a good suggestion. Some other form of G, maybe? In my vague memory, some GNOME 1.x versions used to use a flower logo at the main menu. And after some search, I've found some evidences: http://www.gnome.org/images/screenshots/2400-jacob-big http://www.gnome.org/images/screenshots/2518-iain-big http://www.gnome.org/images/screenshots/2520-ole-big I don't know the reason behind this. And GDM also provides a flower theme in its stock. Probably, it associates with garden gnomes? Anyway, can we use the flower as a secondary logo for GNOME? I suggested that you ask the Art team, and that you then take their suggestions to the board. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 11:08 AM, Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 2008-11-06 at 17:37 +0700, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan wrote: On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 1:26 AM, Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe you could contact the GNOME Art team. They could make some suggestions. Don't focus on the Gnome idea. Few people think of small mythical beings when they think of GNOME. Unfortunately, I don't have a good suggestion. Some other form of G, maybe? In my vague memory, some GNOME 1.x versions used to use a flower logo at the main menu. And after some search, I've found some evidences: http://www.gnome.org/images/screenshots/2400-jacob-big http://www.gnome.org/images/screenshots/2518-iain-big http://www.gnome.org/images/screenshots/2520-ole-big I always thought that was a fried egg. Huh. I don't know the reason behind this. And GDM also provides a flower theme in its stock. Probably, it associates with garden gnomes? Anyway, can we use the flower as a secondary logo for GNOME? I suggested that you ask the Art team, and that you then take their suggestions to the board. +1. Luis -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 11:13 PM, Luis Villa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 11:08 AM, Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I suggested that you ask the Art team, and that you then take their suggestions to the board. +1. It's artweb-list, not art.gnome.org, I suppose? Also, in the last stage, the board means foundation-list? Thanks, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 6:54 PM, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 11:13 PM, Luis Villa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 11:08 AM, Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I suggested that you ask the Art team, and that you then take their suggestions to the board. +1. It's artweb-list, not art.gnome.org, I suppose? I think, but don't know offhand. Also, in the last stage, the board means foundation-list? That's probably the best place to take it, yes. Luis -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 11:33 PM, Simos Xenitellis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As already suggested, delegating the choice of the new logo to the Art Team is the typical thing to do. Yes, thanks. That would be much better than my primitive drawings. My concern is in the practicalities when trying to apply the new logo in a distribution. If you have your own distribution, you can make all sort of changes, so it it OK. In fact, I've been trying to push this upstream because I'm using Debian, which tries to keep upstream looks as much as possible. Besides, I prefer promoting upstream GNOME for more contributors. For example, it would be difficult to convince translators to work with GNOME, rather than launchpad, when few people care about GNOME, or even know what it is. What you might want to explore is how to make the logo theme-able. That is, you can select a theme that would alter the logo in all places in GNOME. You can then create a package with this cut-down logo-changing theme that a user can either install on demand, or it is installed automatically when the user selects, for example, Thai support. To begin with, I've already got a minimal theme, as mentioned ealier in the list [1]. And, yes, figuring out how to make it installed for target users is the next step to think about. Thanks. For Debian in particular, it can be done via tasksel. But I'm also seeking for possibility of upstream solution. [1] http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-i18n/2008-November/msg9.html Assuming that it is possible to change the logo through theming, you may then choose a logo that has a special meaning to SE Asia. Yes, especially if I can define the exact regions that would benefit from this solution. My current thought is to make it applicable everywhere. Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Theppitak Karoonboonyanan schrieb: Thanks for suggestion. We have got some ideas from the discussion so far. Please see a summary at: http://live.gnome.org/FootAndCulturalIssue You are listing Nepal (as referred by Wikipedia, no confirmation by native people yet) Thi extension is funny, because Wikipedia actually has the reverse logic - it tends to dismiss reports of single people as original research and likes to see references that show the truth of the claim. So any single person claiming something is not really a valid proof. Regards, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Hi, I may not be a Thai but my understanding is the foot is offensive not just to Thais but rest of the Tai-Kedai people also. The Thais are just but one group within the Tai-Kedai ethnicity although without doubt they are numerically speaking the largest. Other Tai-Kedai people include the Zhuang, Li, Laotians (for a complete listing, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai_peoples). The whole sum i.e. potential target market comes up to be about ~105-110 million of them depending on which estimates you want to believe. This may sound ludcicrous but I do know of some Thai friends who are from Bangkok as well as Isaan (i.e. north-eastern Thais who are ethnic Lao) and all said they would prefer not to use any operating system or DEs with a foot as its logo. Rgds, Shaun - Singaporean Chinese - Original Message - From: Theppitak Karoonboonyanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 09:42:45 +0700 On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I come from Malaysia. I do understand about the cultural issue regarding foot in people especially in the South East Asia area. Currently, from my observation, there is no setback from people in Malaysia with the usage of foot as GNOME logo. Most of the people that are interested to use GNOME did not really care about the foot logo, but some do ask question why foot was chosen as the logo. Thanks for the information. Actually, I think people who are willing to accept GNOME can accept its logo. But the problem I've been facing is about introducing it to people who are totally new. And I'd say, almost *everyone* I introduce GNOME to asks me the question, with different levels of reactions. And repeatedly answering the question over time becomes too much for me. I think I'm more happy to answer technical or philosophical questions instead. As for alternative of the foot logo, maybe GNOME team can come up with a simple G logo, that can be used for community that thinks foot is not nice to associated with. The same logo can then be used in the user interface, documentation, or other material when you are trying to introduce GNOME to them. Thanks for supporting the alternative logo, and for the suggestion. Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list -- ___ Surf the Web in a faster, safer and easier way: Download Opera 9 at http://www.opera.com Powered by Outblaze -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 4:06 PM, Thilo Pfennig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Theppitak Karoonboonyanan schrieb: Thanks for suggestion. We have got some ideas from the discussion so far. Please see a summary at: http://live.gnome.org/FootAndCulturalIssue You are listing Nepal (as referred by Wikipedia, no confirmation by native people yet) Thi extension is funny, because Wikipedia actually has the reverse logic - it tends to dismiss reports of single people as original research and likes to see references that show the truth of the claim. So any single person claiming something is not really a valid proof. I meaned, I just counted Nepal based on Wikipedia, not something I got in this list or from an actual report. Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Hi, On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 1:13 PM, Sergey Panov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've mentioned those two examples in the wain attempt to prove that some (many/most) of the cultural sensitivities are ridiculous to the point of being foony. When I saw foot(long, long time ago) as a Gnome Desktop emblem I was not happy. I thought that the stinkiest part of the human body did not deserve to be an emblem of the one of the most important GNU projects. It had nothing to do with the cultural(Russian) background, it was my personal reaction. I am still a Gnome bigot and that Foot does not bother me much anymore (all emblems are stupid). I even find it kinda cool now - rebellious, in-your-face sort of thing. Please, please think twice, trice, ... before claiming cultural differences/problems. Please check if it is just you. As said somewhere else in these two threads, it's not me either. And I believe most GNOME fans here like it. The question is not for you, it's about your culture in general. The problem I've met is a kind of barrier for new comers, as foot is considered the least respected part of the body in my culture. It's not that kind of disgust you explained. But it's a sign of strong disrespect. You should not point with your foot. You should not expose your foot toward others, bare or with shoe on. Raising foot over one's head, the most respected part of the body, by any means is a most obvious sign of disrespect. When sleeping, you should never point your foot to Buddha's image. On the other hand, allowing other's feet to be put over one's head is the highest degree of paying respect, which is reserved for one's beloved masters. And paying respect at other's feet is also the highest degree of respect, which is reserved for one's parents or higher people. These are traditions in societies where seniority plays an important role like mine. So, you can imagine how people think when someone showing foot to them. It's like claiming of higher status and treating the target person as a lower class or alike. A Wikipedia page [1] describes this as a taboo in countries strongly influenced by Buddhism. But I doubt this claim, as I find little relation to Buddha's teaching. Rather, I think it might come with religions from India in the past. The traditional Indian culture, obviously influenced by Hinduism, might come along with the priests and monks from India and Sri Langka. However, that's just my hypothesis about history. But the fact is that this convention has indirect relation to some relegious values. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot#In_culture Wow, a long description, isn't it? Just to clarify that it's not the same kind as what you talked about. PS. To me, the good example of culturally insensitive emblem would be the old indo-europen symbol for the raising sun (kolovrat in Slavic). Ah, you mean Swastika, right? Yes, it seems to be acceptable everywhere. I agree. Some academy, however, may distinguish between the right-facing and the left-facing forms. The right-facing form means clockwise turning, which is a sign of paying respect to some holy body for auspiciousness, while the left-facing form, counter-clockwise, is for misfortunes and is used in funerals. But this is just minor detail. The next in line is the sickle-and-hammer variant. Are Americans OK? Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Murray Cumming schrieb: To make something happen, I guess you need to suggest a particular design. Then the GNOME board could approve it - you need to ask the board for a simple yes/no decision or it won't happen. That would be a very bad idea. Essentially a logo should be selected with care next time. Just something different could easily be approved by the board but then could result in the next issue one day later. A logo can be everything and it does not take much time to think of 'anything'. What would be needed is a well thought through logo idea with also some good people working on it. I think 'marketing by accident' is like one starts programming randomly without any standards or idea what one wants to accomplish. I would wish that some things would change at GNOME. Regards, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Sun, 2008-11-02 at 20:47 +0100, Thilo Pfennig wrote: Murray Cumming schrieb: To make something happen, I guess you need to suggest a particular design. Then the GNOME board could approve it - you need to ask the board for a simple yes/no decision or it won't happen. That would be a very bad idea. Essentially a logo should be selected with care next time. Just something different could easily be approved by the board but then could result in the next issue one day later. A logo can be everything and it does not take much time to think of 'anything'. What would be needed is a well thought through logo idea with also some good people working on it. I think 'marketing by accident' is like one starts programming randomly without any standards or idea what one wants to accomplish. I would wish that some things would change at GNOME. This assumes that the GNOME artists and the GNOME board are idiots. Note that I won't be discussing whether they are, or whether I am. -- Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Murray Cumming schrieb: This assumes that the GNOME artists and the GNOME board are idiots. Note that I won't be discussing whether they are, or whether I am. I never wrote or meant that. I think there are people inside the GNOME community who have marketing experience and who could lead a way to a new logo. I think issues like this is exactly where the GNOME marketing team should take care/responsibility. Regards, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 1:26 AM, Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 2008-11-02 at 17:25 +0700, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan wrote: The problem I've met is a kind of barrier for new comers, as foot is considered the least respected part of the body in my culture. It's not that kind of disgust you explained. But it's a sign of strong disrespect. You should not point with your foot. You should not expose your foot toward others, bare or with shoe on. Raising foot over one's head, the most respected part of the body, by any means is a most obvious sign of disrespect. When sleeping, you should never point your foot to Buddha's image. We all believe you, I think. Thanks for telling us about this. To make something happen, I guess you need to suggest a particular design. Then the GNOME board could approve it - you need to ask the board for a simple yes/no decision or it won't happen. Thanks for suggestion. We have got some ideas from the discussion so far. Please see a summary at: http://live.gnome.org/FootAndCulturalIssue Other ideas are still welcome. Maybe you could contact the GNOME Art team. They could make some suggestions. Don't focus on the Gnome idea. Few people think of small mythical beings when they think of GNOME. Unfortunately, I don't have a good suggestion. Some other form of G, maybe? I've also been trying to find some idea like that. So far, the OK hand sign showing a G is not passed, as it's said to mean something dirty in South America. A gnome hat and head seem to be the best we can get so far. (See the live page above.) Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 11:04 AM, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 10:44 PM, F Wolff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Vr, 2008-10-31 at 12:17 +0100, Petr Kovar wrote: What about not using the foot logo, or introducing a new logo, if desirable, in Thai (and Lao, and perhaps some others) locale only? Would the logo change be sufficient solely as a part of your l10n processes? This sounds like an unintrusive and simple solution. I'm guessing there is no infrastructure in place to do this today, but is probably possible with a little bit of work. Using icon theme can also be unintrusive. However, it should be nice to make the logo better known, so that people can recognize it as another GNOME representation, not a fork or rebranding or casual customization. For example, the Gorilla theme is more associated with Ximian than the standard GNOME. We may have a new theme, but people may not treat it as GNOME. And it would look weird to use the new logo in promotion web sites and events. Some recognition at GNOME site would help retain the unity in activities. Let me add another difference between the direct logo localization and the icon theming methods. Many Thai users don't like to use Thai translation. This is a popular taste, despite how much translation effort and quality assurance has been done. And that's why I put lower priority on translation than infrastructure development. (I joined the team after having done enough progress on GTK+, Pango, etc.) And by this practice, the logo localization will have limited effect, while theming still allows Thai people who choose English locale to change the logo. In summary, I'd propose icon theming + GNOME recognition of the secondary logo. Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Theppitak Karoonboonyanan [EMAIL PROTECTED], Sat, 1 Nov 2008 14:00:06 +0700: (...) Let me add another difference between the direct logo localization and the icon theming methods. Many Thai users don't like to use Thai translation. This is a popular taste, despite how much translation effort and quality assurance has been done. And that's why I put lower priority on translation than infrastructure development. (I joined the team after having done enough progress on GTK+, Pango, etc.) And by this practice, the logo localization will have limited effect, while theming still allows Thai people who choose English locale to change the logo. In summary, I'd propose icon theming + GNOME recognition of the secondary logo. Let me ask you, those Thai people with such a non-Thai-locale taste likely have a better understanding of English or Western culture, right? (At least that's what I suppose.) So the foot logo shouldn't be a big problem for them then? Please correct me if I'm wrong here. Best, Petr Kovar -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 1:34 AM, Petr Kovar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Theppitak Karoonboonyanan [EMAIL PROTECTED], Sat, 1 Nov 2008 14:00:06 +0700: Let me add another difference between the direct logo localization and the icon theming methods. Many Thai users don't like to use Thai translation. This is a popular taste, despite how much translation effort and quality assurance has been done. And that's why I put lower priority on translation than infrastructure development. (I joined the team after having done enough progress on GTK+, Pango, etc.) And by this practice, the logo localization will have limited effect, while theming still allows Thai people who choose English locale to change the logo. In summary, I'd propose icon theming + GNOME recognition of the secondary logo. Let me ask you, those Thai people with such a non-Thai-locale taste likely have a better understanding of English or Western culture, right? (At least that's what I suppose.) So the foot logo shouldn't be a big problem for them then? Please correct me if I'm wrong here. Nope.The taste is popular just because software are badly translated in general. And people feel more happy with original English terms than guessing the translators' whim on choosing inconsistent translated terms. Many are full with typos or misinterpretations, for example. Kind of bad impression. And that habit is not changed when they use GNOME, despite our heavy QA. There is nothing to do with English skill nor familiarity with Western cultures. I hope our QA can gradually change their habit in the future, though. Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Theppitak Karoonboonyanan [EMAIL PROTECTED], Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:10:32 +0700: On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 1:34 AM, Petr Kovar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Theppitak Karoonboonyanan [EMAIL PROTECTED], Sat, 1 Nov 2008 14:00:06 +0700: Let me add another difference between the direct logo localization and the icon theming methods. Many Thai users don't like to use Thai translation. This is a popular taste, despite how much translation effort and quality assurance has been done. And that's why I put lower priority on translation than infrastructure development. (I joined the team after having done enough progress on GTK+, Pango, etc.) And by this practice, the logo localization will have limited effect, while theming still allows Thai people who choose English locale to change the logo. In summary, I'd propose icon theming + GNOME recognition of the secondary logo. Let me ask you, those Thai people with such a non-Thai-locale taste likely have a better understanding of English or Western culture, right? (At least that's what I suppose.) So the foot logo shouldn't be a big problem for them then? Please correct me if I'm wrong here. Nope.The taste is popular just because software are badly translated in general. And people feel more happy with original English terms than guessing the translators' whim on choosing inconsistent translated terms. Many are full with typos or misinterpretations, for example. Kind of bad impression. And that habit is not changed when they use GNOME, despite our heavy QA. There is nothing to do with English skill nor familiarity with Western cultures. Sorry, but I can't understand this. In my way of thinking, one has to have rather good English skills in order to use (American) English locale. And I'm pretty sure that good English skills necessarily come with some level of familiarity with Western culture. Best, Petr Kovar -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 2:00 PM, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In summary, I'd propose icon theming + GNOME recognition of the secondary logo. I've tried creating an icon theme using the hat logo. http://linux.thai.net/~thep/shots/gnome-logo/Hat-20081102.tar.gz This overrides start-here, process-idle and process-working, to replace the foot at known significant places. The throbber is quick and dirty draft. Ideas are welcome. Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 10:44 PM, F Wolff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Vr, 2008-10-31 at 12:17 +0100, Petr Kovar wrote: What about not using the foot logo, or introducing a new logo, if desirable, in Thai (and Lao, and perhaps some others) locale only? Would the logo change be sufficient solely as a part of your l10n processes? This sounds like an unintrusive and simple solution. I'm guessing there is no infrastructure in place to do this today, but is probably possible with a little bit of work. Using icon theme can also be unintrusive. However, it should be nice to make the logo better known, so that people can recognize it as another GNOME representation, not a fork or rebranding or casual customization. For example, the Gorilla theme is more associated with Ximian than the standard GNOME. We may have a new theme, but people may not treat it as GNOME. And it would look weird to use the new logo in promotion web sites and events. Some recognition at GNOME site would help retain the unity in activities. BTW, having repeated some assertions for several times, I think it's enough for a dedicated live page: http://live.gnome.org/FootAndCulturalIssue This summarizes what we have got so far, and what to do with the cultural issue. Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Dear gnome-i18n, I believe this is an appropriate place to discuss about cultural conventions. How is a foot interpreted in your culture? Do you have the same issue I have met? In my culture, showing foot is considered rude. And the foot is not something to impress people who are totally new to GNOME. I am not asking to replace the foot logo. I just wish to have a secondary one which can also represent GNOME in my culture. But to convince people for the proposal, the effect of this issue may need some estimation. Note that icon theming also helps at some degree to avoid showing the foot. But when talking about something outside the UI, such as screenshots in documentations, web site logos, and any other kinds of promotions, we need more consistency. That is, we need some alternative logo which people recognize as GNOME. So, how about your culture? Is a foot considered offensive? Thanks, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 4:18 PM, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, I have thought about this issue for a while whether it should be raised or not, as the logo has been in use for a long time. And I'm not sure if it's ever discussed anywhere about the cultural issue with the GNOME's foot logo, which may obstruct GNOME promotion in some way. In Thai culture, and I'm pretty sure also in the nearby regions, showing foot is considered rude, as it's the lowest part of the body. And a variation of the word 'foot' in Thai is used for scolding, in the tone close to f**k or b*tch in English. I have had hard times introducing GNOME to Thai people who never know about it before, and their reactions are awkward when seeing the foot logo. I have to explain that it's a footprint, not the foot itself. But that doesn't help much, as footprint also indicates treading with a foot. Some people simply refuse GNOME with the reason that it's impolite. That sometimes makes me feel uncomfortable to promote GNOME to new users as-is, or with distributions that try to keep upstream look-and-feels like Debian. But with Ubuntu or Fedora, where the main menu logo is replaced with something else, that's more OK. Just avoid letting them see the animated foot on Epiphany or Nautilus, until they are familiar with GNOME enough. I don't know if this is an issue for other cultures. Just want to raise it for awareness on an obstacle. Should there be an alternative logo for GNOME? For example, using a gnome head instead is OK. Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
How is a foot interpreted in your culture? Do you have the same issue I have met? In my culture, showing foot is considered rude. And the foot is not something to impress people who are totally new to GNOME. As a mongolian, I don't have anything against foot. And neither to other people. They get interested what the foot and GNOME is. Just that. I am not asking to replace the foot logo. I just wish to have a secondary one which can also represent GNOME in my culture. But to convince people for the proposal, the effect of this issue may need some estimation. Personally, I like it, and everyone who use GNOME also likes it. -- Regards Dulmandakh -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 2:38 PM, DULMANDAKH Sukhbaatar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a mongolian, I don't have anything against foot. And neither to other people. They get interested what the foot and GNOME is. Just that. Thanks. So, it's not a problem for Mongolian. Personally, I like it, and everyone who use GNOME also likes it. So do I, as long as I don't try to spread GNOME. And I assume most GNOME fans here like it. Please note that the question is not about you, but it's about your culture in general. Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Hi Dave, Dave wrote: Which countries? Besides Thailand and Nepal due to the material online I would add: Algeria, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, Quatar, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, United, Arab Emirates and also Pakistan, Afghanistan and other muslim countries maybe those with +50% muslim population: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Muslim_world_map.png When abandoning a logo, you are in essence saying that it has no value to you. In my view its rather the question of why a worldwide project that committed itself to internationalization would want to offend parts of the world. To do this without knowing to do so is acceptable and understandable - but if iobe becomes aware of a problem the question is why one wants to keep offending people. What was formerly unconciously is than conciously. I think my view is very different from yours. You are trying to defend a logo, which has served GNOME for many years. I rather look at what offends people and therefore holds back GNOME in many countries and would suggest to change what offends. Both views are possible, but a compromise is needed. The real question is how much harm the current GNOME logo does in relation to the benefit for keeping it. My view is that if the GNOME logo will keep some countries from even looking at GNOME as a viable desktop alternative than it does great harm to the whole project if the goal is to be acceptable in every country. There are things that GNOME will never fix, such as becoming closed source for people who are offended by open source - but there are things that are not essential to the core GNOME like a logo, documentation,... which can be changed if it seems wise to do so. I would recommend to think over the conception of why should it be a problem if I dont have a problem with it? Thats the wrong approach - the better question is Why should one offend people if this is not what the project is about? If one decides to do it conciously then one has to bear the consequences. A compromise could be that the Foundation does a real evaluation about the extend of the problem. I think by just asking of the list one might not get good answers because those who are offended by GNOME would not subscribe here ;-). Its not always about better software, or better documentation, sometimes its about how to interact and communicate that makes the difference. Regards, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 4:14 PM, Alex Hudson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If we're looking at a cultural problem in Islamic countries, there is some precedent there for having separate logos: Red Cross / Red Crescent have different symbols because the cross is offensive in those areas too (even through unrelated descent). I believe they're different organisations, and they also have a third symbol - a diamond - as a reserve. GNOME could apply the same thinking, though. Exactly what I got as a comment from my friend. At first, I thought about the Debian project which has official logo with the bottle and the other without. But the Red Cross / Red Crescent example also applies. Would there be a problem using something like a stylised hand-print? It could be made to look recognisably GNOME with a G palm, yet still obviously a hand. You mean something the GPE project is currently using? http://gpe.handhelds.org/ Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Hi, Thilo Pfennig wrote: Dave wrote: When abandoning a logo, you are in essence saying that it has no value to you. snip I think my view is very different from yours. You are trying to defend a logo, which has served GNOME for many years. I am simply pointing out that (1) the logo has brand value and (2) a change of logo is a costly operation (time, effort, communication, money, loss of brand). All changes as costly as this should be subjected to a cost/benefit analysis of some sort. The benefit is will not insult some people in those countries where bare feet are insulting. The cost is currently not known, and I don't think that you're considering it. The real question is how much harm the current GNOME logo does in relation to the benefit for keeping it. Indeed. Or, to turn it around as I did, what is the benefit of changing it compared to the cost. My view is that if the GNOME logo will keep some countries from even looking at GNOME as a viable desktop alternative than it does great harm to the whole project if the goal is to be acceptable in every country. My view is that if people all over the world are using the GNOME desktop as their primary computing environment, people in Thailand won't decide not to use it because of the foot. My other view is that (as has been said repeatedly on this list) GNOME does not have a direct relationship with the consumer - the GNOME brand is strong among distributors, Linux application developers, and enthusiasts. Outside of that, the brand people see is Ubuntu, Debian, Red Hat, ... So I'm not convinced that changing the logo will even gain us any new users. There are things that GNOME will never fix, such as becoming closed source for people who are offended by open source - but there are things that are not essential to the core GNOME like a logo, documentation,... which can be changed if it seems wise to do so. It is a mistake to think that because things are not core to GNOME (and I agree that the logo isn't), then changing them is a cheap operation. Changing documentation takes time and effort, changing the website takes time and effort and technical resources, changing the logo takes time and effort and communication resources. If you want to evaluate the damage of the logo as it is, to have sufficient data for a decision, you should also evaluate the cost of changing it (very difficult to do before the change). Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary GNOME Foundation member [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Thilo Pfennig wrote: Besides Thailand and Nepal due to the material online I would add: Algeria, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, Quatar, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, United, Arab Emirates and also Pakistan, Afghanistan and other muslim countries maybe those with +50% muslim population: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Muslim_world_map.png If we're looking at a cultural problem in Islamic countries, there is some precedent there for having separate logos: Red Cross / Red Crescent have different symbols because the cross is offensive in those areas too (even through unrelated descent). I believe they're different organisations, and they also have a third symbol - a diamond - as a reserve. GNOME could apply the same thinking, though. Would there be a problem using something like a stylised hand-print? It could be made to look recognisably GNOME with a G palm, yet still obviously a hand. Cheers, Alex. -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Dave Neary wrote: My view is that if people all over the world are using the GNOME desktop moas their primary computing environment, people in Thailand won't decide not to use it because of the foot. My other view is that (as has been said repeatedly on this list) GNOME does not have a direct relationship with the consumer - the GNOME brand is strong among distributors, Linux application developers, and enthusiasts. Outside of that, the brand people see is Ubuntu, Debian, Red Hat, ... So I'm not convinced that changing the logo will even gain us any new users. I think we can look into how we can reduce the presence of the logo in the actual interface (like with the throbber). I agree that it would be a costly operation to change it, and we might end up designing something that could offend some other cultural group. - Andreas -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Thilo Pfennig wrote: Hi Dave, Dave wrote: Which countries? Besides Thailand and Nepal due to the material online I would add: Algeria, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, Quatar, Sudan, Syria, Tunisia, United, Arab Emirates and also Pakistan, Afghanistan and other muslim countries maybe those with +50% muslim population: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Muslim_world_map.png Really? Definitely not in Iran. And not in Turkey as far as the GUADEC experience could tell. How did you decide it's offensive in Islamic countries? behdad When abandoning a logo, you are in essence saying that it has no value to you. In my view its rather the question of why a worldwide project that committed itself to internationalization would want to offend parts of the world. To do this without knowing to do so is acceptable and understandable - but if iobe becomes aware of a problem the question is why one wants to keep offending people. What was formerly unconciously is than conciously. I think my view is very different from yours. You are trying to defend a logo, which has served GNOME for many years. I rather look at what offends people and therefore holds back GNOME in many countries and would suggest to change what offends. Both views are possible, but a compromise is needed. The real question is how much harm the current GNOME logo does in relation to the benefit for keeping it. My view is that if the GNOME logo will keep some countries from even looking at GNOME as a viable desktop alternative than it does great harm to the whole project if the goal is to be acceptable in every country. There are things that GNOME will never fix, such as becoming closed source for people who are offended by open source - but there are things that are not essential to the core GNOME like a logo, documentation,... which can be changed if it seems wise to do so. I would recommend to think over the conception of why should it be a problem if I dont have a problem with it? Thats the wrong approach - the better question is Why should one offend people if this is not what the project is about? If one decides to do it conciously then one has to bear the consequences. A compromise could be that the Foundation does a real evaluation about the extend of the problem. I think by just asking of the list one might not get good answers because those who are offended by GNOME would not subscribe here ;-). Its not always about better software, or better documentation, sometimes its about how to interact and communicate that makes the difference. Regards, Thilo -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On 30 Oct 2008, at 09:24, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan wrote: You mean something the GPE project is currently using? http://gpe.handhelds.org/ Actually, I'd guess a hand is probably the worst choice, as there are probably more offensive hand gestures than are possible with any other part of the body :) Even an open palm, like the GPE logo, is potentially offensive in some places. (Greece? I think it was something originally used by the Byzantines, anyway...) Cheeri, Calum. -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]GNOME Desktop Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Behdad Esfahbod schrieb: Really? Definitely not in Iran. And not in Turkey as far as the GUADEC experience could tell. How did you decide it's offensive in Islamic countries? Maybe its more in arabic countries. I knew that from different sources and its also in the Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot#In_culture) . I just today asked a turkish friend and she also said that this can be an issue. My guess is that modern and young developers care less about those issues. As I said I think it is worth evaluating - and what I say was based on what I already knew. I dont actually know how each country is different. Regards, Thilo -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 7:39 PM, Sharuzzaman Ahmat Raslan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I come from Malaysia. I do understand about the cultural issue regarding foot in people especially in the South East Asia area. Currently, from my observation, there is no setback from people in Malaysia with the usage of foot as GNOME logo. Most of the people that are interested to use GNOME did not really care about the foot logo, but some do ask question why foot was chosen as the logo. Thanks for the information. Actually, I think people who are willing to accept GNOME can accept its logo. But the problem I've been facing is about introducing it to people who are totally new. And I'd say, almost *everyone* I introduce GNOME to asks me the question, with different levels of reactions. And repeatedly answering the question over time becomes too much for me. I think I'm more happy to answer technical or philosophical questions instead. As for alternative of the foot logo, maybe GNOME team can come up with a simple G logo, that can be used for community that thinks foot is not nice to associated with. The same logo can then be used in the user interface, documentation, or other material when you are trying to introduce GNOME to them. Thanks for supporting the alternative logo, and for the suggestion. Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Theppitak Karoonboonyanan wrote: Some people simply refuse GNOME with the reason that it's impolite. That sometimes makes me feel uncomfortable to promote GNOME to new users as-is, or with distributions that try to keep upstream look-and-feels like Debian. But with Ubuntu or Fedora, where the main menu logo is replaced with something else, that's more OK. Just avoid letting them see the animated foot on Epiphany or Nautilus, until they are familiar with GNOME enough. I've been thinking that it might be a good idea to replace the animated foot with a spinner like we do in Firefox for a while, but this felt like the tipping point. Filed a bug about it. http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=558367 - Andreas -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On 29 Oct 2008, at 09:18, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan wrote: Hello, I have thought about this issue for a while whether it should be raised or not, as the logo has been in use for a long time. And I'm not sure if it's ever discussed anywhere about the cultural issue with the GNOME's foot logo, which may obstruct GNOME promotion in some way. Yep, it's been brought up from time to time. I actually first mentioned it back in 2001! http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-2-0-list/2001-October/msg00264.html -- CALUM BENSON, Usability Engineer Sun Microsystems Ireland mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]GNOME Desktop Team http://blogs.sun.com/calum +353 1 819 9771 Any opinions are personal and not necessarily those of Sun Microsystems -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
It's quite funny to see how GNOME HIG advises to avoid body parts, but the actual GNOME logo is a foot(print). Do people in Thailand give the same reaction if the logo was a shoe? :) If not http://tango.freedesktop.org/favicon.ico could be an option. Hylke On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 10:18 AM, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, I have thought about this issue for a while whether it should be raised or not, as the logo has been in use for a long time. And I'm not sure if it's ever discussed anywhere about the cultural issue with the GNOME's foot logo, which may obstruct GNOME promotion in some way. In Thai culture, and I'm pretty sure also in the nearby regions, showing foot is considered rude, as it's the lowest part of the body. And a variation of the word 'foot' in Thai is used for scolding, in the tone close to f**k or b*tch in English. I have had hard times introducing GNOME to Thai people who never know about it before, and their reactions are awkward when seeing the foot logo. I have to explain that it's a footprint, not the foot itself. But that doesn't help much, as footprint also indicates treading with a foot. Some people simply refuse GNOME with the reason that it's impolite. That sometimes makes me feel uncomfortable to promote GNOME to new users as-is, or with distributions that try to keep upstream look-and-feels like Debian. But with Ubuntu or Fedora, where the main menu logo is replaced with something else, that's more OK. Just avoid letting them see the animated foot on Epiphany or Nautilus, until they are familiar with GNOME enough. I don't know if this is an issue for other cultures. Just want to raise it for awareness on an obstacle. Should there be an alternative logo for GNOME? For example, using a gnome head instead is OK. Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 6:29 PM, Hylke Bons [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's quite funny to see how GNOME HIG advises to avoid body parts, but the actual GNOME logo is a foot(print). Do people in Thailand give the same reaction if the logo was a shoe? :) If not http://tango.freedesktop.org/favicon.ico could be an option. This should not be too offensive, compared to the foot. So, in 3.0, our gnome gets better dressed somehow. ;) However, how about moving away from that part of the body? Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Hi, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan wrote: However, how about moving away from that part of the body? The following might be culturally offensive in some countries: ()() Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary GNOME Foundation member [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 7:38 PM, Žygimantas Beručka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tr, 2008 10 29 19:15 +0700, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan rašė: On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 6:29 PM, Hylke Bons [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's quite funny to see how GNOME HIG advises to avoid body parts, but the actual GNOME logo is a foot(print). Do people in Thailand give the same reaction if the logo was a shoe? :) If not http://tango.freedesktop.org/favicon.ico could be an option. This should not be too offensive, compared to the foot. So, in 3.0, our gnome gets better dressed somehow. ;) However, how about moving away from that part of the body? And how about making it optional at compile time or changing the foot (e.g. by symlinking images) with something other at run-time if Thai (or any other for that matter) locale is set? People love the GNOME foot and I don't feel there is a real necessity to remove it completely just because some cultures have weird associations or meanings of something, or is it? Personally, I love the foot, too. But general Thai people who are not familiar with GNOME don't. So, we have the difficulty in promotion. And actually, what I proposed was an 'alternative' logo. Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Hi, Thilo Pfennig wrote: Yeah, wouldnt GNOME 3.0 not a good chance to make a logo overhaul? I would suggest to try a new thing. AFAIK similar problems can occur in arabic and muslim countries. Maybe something like a GNOME hat (http://www.garbtheworld.com/items/g0085.shtml). Whenever I hear people propose abandoning an old logo completely, this question comes back to me: would you mind someone using the current GNOME logo for a completely unrelated project? If the answer is yes (which it would be for me), then your current logo probably still has some value. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary GNOME Foundation member [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 7:58 PM, Vincent Untz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All the places where we show a GNOME foot should be themed, so just changing the icon theme should work. If this is not the case, then it's a bug, I'd say. (that's actually why you don't see the GNOME foot in Fedora, I think) Yes, theming does help. But I think that would diversify GNOME looks-and-feels, up to people's preferences. We propably need something more official when talking about, say, screenshots in documents, logos on web sites (e.g. I don't think many general people are happy with the current one in http://th.gnome.org), or any other kinds of promotions. Should there be an alternative logo for GNOME? For example, using a gnome head instead is OK. If we were to change the logo (or adopt a mascot), I'd propose a sea turtle. No idea why, except that I like it :-) That being said, it's kind of hard to change something like this, especially since many people are emotionally attached to the GNOME foot... If the logo needs to be associated with gnomes, I like Thilo's gnome hat. And it may include a gnome's head, i.e., something similar to EOG's former icon. But if it's to be a mascot, there're more possibilities. It can even be the Wanda fish. Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Dave Neary schrieb: Whenever I hear people propose abandoning an old logo completely, this question comes back to me: I did not propose this just for fun. If it means that GNOME will never be used in maybe 1/4 of the worlds countries it would be stupid not to change. The question is if one wants to neglect cultural differences. With GNOME the question is how localization and internationalization are related to symbols that offend some people. I do not think it is wise to take this lightly just because oneself does not have that kind of problem. Question is maybe if people in the USA would welcome a new GNOME release to get the name Hussein ;-) -- Thilo Pfennig - PfennigSolutions IT-Beratung- Wiki-Systeme Sandkrug 28 - 24143 Kiel (Germany) http://www.pfennigsolutions.de/ XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Thilo_Pfennig - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tpfennig -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Am Mittwoch, den 29.10.2008, 19:03 +0100 schrieb Thilo Pfennig: Dave Neary schrieb: Whenever I hear people propose abandoning an old logo completely, this question comes back to me: I did not propose this just for fun. If it means that GNOME will never be used in maybe 1/4 of the worlds countries it would be stupid not to change. The question is if one wants to neglect cultural differences. What about the other 3/4 that will be confronted with another logo and might not be able to link it against the GNOME brand they know? If it's really 1/4 it's bad, but if it's only 1/30 I'd call it multicultural reality on this world. Come up with anything that you consider non offending and I will probably find some culture where it IS offending. ;-) GNOME 3? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3_(number)#As_a_lucky_or_unlucky_number Probably not enough reason to avoid 3... but GNOME 4? Considered an unlucky number in CKJ, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4_(number)#In_other_fields . Enough reason to avoid 4? *shrug* andre -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | failed http://www.iomc.de/ | http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
Hi, Thilo Pfennig wrote: Dave Neary schrieb: Whenever I hear people propose abandoning an old logo completely, this question comes back to me: I did not propose this just for fun. I understand. I did not reply in jest. When abandoning a logo, you are in essence saying that it has no value to you. If it has no value, you surely wouldn't mind seeing it being used for a completely different purpose. If it means that GNOME will never be used in maybe 1/4 of the worlds countries it would be stupid not to change. Which countries? The question is if one wants to neglect cultural differences. With GNOME the question is how localization and internationalization are related to symbols that offend some people. I do not think it is wise to take this lightly just because oneself does not have that kind of problem. Question is maybe if people in the USA would welcome a new GNOME release to get the name Hussein ;-) We've already had a GNOME release named after Genghis Khan... (OK, I'm not suggesting we do that again) It all comes down to a question of resources, brand value, and project identity. One argument says that whatever we choose it could potentially offend someone. A rebrand is onerous, and politically difficult to make happen. Being actuarial, I'd suggest that the return on moving away from the foot would cost more in the rest of the world in volunteer effort and communication than it would gain for us in Thailand among anyone who considers that an image of a foot is an insult. Cheers, Dave. -- Dave Neary GNOME Foundation member [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 3:06 AM, Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thilo Pfennig wrote: The question is if one wants to neglect cultural differences. With GNOME the question is how localization and internationalization are related to symbols that offend some people. I do not think it is wise to take this lightly just because oneself does not have that kind of problem. Question is maybe if people in the USA would welcome a new GNOME release to get the name Hussein ;-) We've already had a GNOME release named after Genghis Khan... (OK, I'm not suggesting we do that again) No, neither of these is comparable to the meaning of the foot in my culture. You may think of a release name like Mother F**ker instead. It all comes down to a question of resources, brand value, and project identity. One argument says that whatever we choose it could potentially offend someone. A rebrand is onerous, and politically difficult to make happen. Being actuarial, I'd suggest that the return on moving away from the foot would cost more in the rest of the world in volunteer effort and communication than it would gain for us in Thailand among anyone who considers that an image of a foot is an insult. I don't aim at replacing it. As I said, the logo has been used for a long time, and people love it, including me. The most I wish to get is a secondary logo (if alternative is not obvious enough). Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo
On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 3:06 AM, Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Which countries? Some of Thailand's neighbors certainly share this convention. I've got a confirmation from my Lao friend (Anousak in Cc:), at least. Regards, -- Theppitak Karoonboonyanan http://linux.thai.net/~thep/ -- marketing-list mailing list marketing-list@gnome.org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/marketing-list
