Re: [Marxism] Fascism?

[Clay Claiborne]

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Like I was saying.

Clay
-- Forwarded message --
From: Afra Jalabi
Date: Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Critical-Syria] HuffPo piece
To: Wendy Pearlman


Dear Wendy, Thank YOU so much for writing this piece. I just posted it on
my FB. I particularly liked this paragraph, which echoes what Syrians have
been saying in the last few months: "Then President Obama proposed and
withdrew the threat of military strikes. Instead of a red line against
chemical weapons, he endorsed an agreement that gave Assad a green light to
kill in any other way."

With gratitude, Afra


On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 3:10 PM, Wendy Pearlman wrote:
Hi all,

I have this piece in the Huffington Post today. I wrote it as a short,
simple Syria 101 for anyone who stll needs reminding of the basics:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/wendy-pearlman/on-the-third-anniversary-_1_b_4942512.html

Best,
Wendy

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Re: [Marxism] Fascism?

[Clay Claiborne]

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On 03/12/2014 05:25 PM, Matthew Russo wrote:
> The question to Louis and Clay is then, WHAT is that relevance, however
> partial, of the above?  IOW, what is the analysis here?  I've yet to hear
> much of one concerning the political and economic designs of the EU/NATO/US
> with regard to Ukraine.
IMHO that is the result of at least 3 factors:
1.) It is the political struggle within Ukraine which is the most
relevance factor.
2.) Of the external imperialist factors, the Russian interference is the
most important, by a long shot, I mean by a long shot.
3.) You probably think the US & NATO are much more central to the
struggle in Ukraine, or between Ukraine and Russia, than it is, and your
definition of "much" varies accordingly.

It goes without saying, (or maybe it doesn't? - to your point) that
EU/NATO/US are imperialist powers and will operate in their own
interests. They would like to see Ukraine less dependent on Russia, as
would most Ukrainians. They would like to see them in their military
alliance, which is another matter entirely. They want other things as
well and not all of them are bad. The Ukrainians who think they will
have more democratic rights and a brighter economic future in the EU
than under Russian domination are probably right, if it comes down to a
choice between those two.
>
> And in addition, as people commenting from afar,
If mainly commenting is what you do. I find that in this age of global
communication, there are many ways to not only support, but participate
in revolutionary struggles all over the world. The possibilities for
practicing internationalism are as they never have been before. Do you
know that there were global activist networks that connected individual
NATO commanders to revolutionary fighting groups on the ground in Libya?
[And let me say in advance that I hope I don't have to endure any of
those comments that will force me to repeat again how Ho Chi Minh
accepted weapons from the US, and Giap fought side-by-side with OSS
officers.] Do you know there is a group, somewhere, it doesn't matter,
that gathers sniper reports in Aleppo via twitter and places them on a
Google map that is redistributed to Aleppo and saves lives?
>  mostly from the US, one of
> the imperialist contenders,
I've never felt a special responsibility for being among the oppressed
of an imperialist contender. In the fight against imperialism, I focus
on supporting revolutionaries where I can do the most good and where I
can do the most damage to imperialism.
>  our own interventions are by material
> definition internationalist from the get-go. 
didn't get that.
>  In this vary real context, it
> is a violation of the most elementary revolutionary morality to not analyze
> and denounce the actions of your own imperialist countries as they pertain
> to the situation,
What a self-centered look at the situation! Take the situation in Syria
for example. For three years the people there have been locked in a
desperate struggle to liberate themselves from a murderous mad dog
regime. What do you think they need most? Someone who will "analyze and
denounce" a relatively minor player in their situation, or someone who
spots sniper positions on a map?

Okay, but I've done a lot to "analyze and denounce the actions of US
imperialism" [not that I own it] Both from exposing the two-faced nature
of US imperialism and pointing out [in contradict to most of the "Left"]
that really Obama has been playing good cop to Putin's bad cop.

How Obama has supported Assad's gas murder always

Obama's Real Syria Policy: Endless War


The Courtship Continues: Obama stopped French strike on Assad


The Courtship Continues: Obama's New Gift to Assad


How Obama Helped Assad Kill with Poison Gas in Syria


Win-Win for Assad as Obama Response to CW Mass Murder Put on Hold


Obama Denied Gas Masks to Assad's Victims


Obama's Dilemma and Assad's Opportunity


Barack Obama's Courtship of Bashar al-Assad


Barack Obama's Courtship of Bashar al-Assad Exposed!

[Marxism] (no subject)

[Matthew Russo]

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On 3/10/14 11:28 PM, Marv Gandall wrote:
> Fair enough. But do we support all mass movements without exception -
> even ones led by popular right wing groups and parties often
> viciously opposed to the values and institutions historically
> supported by the left?

"There was no "mass movement". This was a spontaneous revolt of people
fed up by corruption and poverty. A mass movement would be something
like the civil rights movement in the USA that has developed organically
over decades or the antiwar movement. People poured into Maidan square
and the well-organized and powerful ultraright used the opportunity to
muscle out the left."

Don't need to define away Marv's premise: Maidan is a new mass movement in
search of political leadership.  Marv's mistake was to assume leadership by
"popular right wing groups".  The Far Right was only decisive in the street
fighting that toppled Yanukovych, that's their pitch to the mass movement.
But they have competition from other political currents, including those
tied to the EU.

-Matt

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Re: [Marxism] Fascism?

[Matthew Russo]

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Honestly, I don't have such a problem with this as a tactic.  I was taught
that revolutionaries should enter even fascist-organized trade unions to
agitate, and in the case of the Ukraine "street" the point is to intervene
to compete with the fascists for the loyalty of the mass vanguard of the
movement.  Under slogans against Russian imperialism, obviously, but also
against EU/NATO imperialism as well.  Note that the Euro Far Right
generally and the Ukranian Pravy secktor in particular hates the EU.
Svoboda is opportunistically "pro-EU" for the moment, though.

Doing this while attacking honest (if wrong-headed) leftists is a problem,
as in tactically wrong.

-Matt

> serious as a heart attack
> http://notgeorgesabra.tumblr.com/post/78848780314/2-russias-1-ukraine
>


Wow, so he went from the North Star to this? I'm confused, but this is
striking development.

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Re: [Marxism] Fascism?

[Matthew Russo]

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"Clay, Louis, and others have also denounced those who point to the
interimperialist rivalry between the West and Russia, dismissing the
international context as largely irrelevant to the development of the
Maidan movement and an effort by their political opponents to undercut it."

Sorry, but "largely irrelevant" are weasel words, implying the partial
relevance of the international context in general and the Triad/Russia
interimperialist rivalry in particular, to the formation of the Maidan
movement, certainly with respect to its ideological formation.

The question to Louis and Clay is then, WHAT is that relevance, however
partial, of the above?  IOW, what is the analysis here?  I've yet to hear
much of one concerning the political and economic designs of the EU/NATO/US
with regard to Ukraine.

And in addition, as people commenting from afar, mostly from the US, one of
the imperialist contenders, our own interventions are by material
definition internationalist from the get-go.  In this vary real context, it
is a violation of the most elementary revolutionary morality to not analyze
and denounce the actions of your own imperialist countries as they pertain
to the situation, which on this list is likely the US/UK/ANZAC/CN. AS A
FIRST PRIORITY, because that is where you live and communicate from, not
Ukraine. Stop trying to represent yourself as the ordinary people of
Ukraine, American! That is what Leon Trotsky did as journalist in the 1912
Balkan Wars before he was a "Trotskyist", writing for a Russian readership,
despite that the only real "imperialist power" involved was the crumbling
Ottoman Empire.  He bashed (tsarist) Russia, "his own imperialism" even
though not a single Russian soldier was sent there by the Tsarist regime
(quite a few Russians volunteered, in fact the very first airplane even
shot down in war was flown by a Russian volunteer).

Perhaps what we have here is a defensive overreaction (AKA "denunciation"
:-D) to the so-called "anti-imperialists" who have now been exposed as
simply pro-Russian imperialists (and that, and not white supremacy, was
behind their stance on Libya and Syria).  However as I have already
"denounced" on UM and perhaps here, this tendency towards Manichean
juxtaposition is not exactly what I'd call "the Marxist method".  So I keep
seeing such juxtapositions as:

Objective analysis generally, considerations of the international
"chessboard", etc.

VS

"ordinary people", the "real movement", etc., and now,

The international or inter-imperialist context VS the Maidan movement.

In short, a classic reduction.

As if ordinary people or real movements (especially!) aren't interested in
objective analysis!   Really?  I call BS on that!  You are hereby charged
with "elitism towards the masses".

-Matt

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Re: [Marxism] Democracy Important to Most Ukrainians

[Clay Claiborne]

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http://history.stackexchange.com/questions/4418/why-did-the-ussr-give-crimea-to-ukraine

Khrushchev wanted to (1) test his political power, and (2) to please the
> Ukrainian population, and (3) to shift the rebuilding cost to the Ukrainian
> republic.
> Khrushchev wanted to test his political power
>
> If anyone would wanted to challenge Khrushchev, just rising to power, his
> controversial idea and hollow arguments would be a perfect occasion. The
> stake was very little at the same time. Seemingly Khrushchev wanted to test
> his position before more important changes he may have been planning.
> http://books.google.com/books?id=RwfIEhLDaMsC&lpg=PA310&pg=PA311
> Khrushchev wanted to please the Ukrainian population
>
> While the Russian and Ukrainian cadres were in great friendship ever since
> 1930s (1920s?), Ukrainian people's drive for independence was a recurring
> problem for the Soviet Union. During World War II this drive has risen
> again to a great extent. After the war, Soviet power went into a de-facto
> war with Ukrainian nationalists and relations became very strained.
> http://books.google.com/books?id=DHFDjhPugJIC&pg=PT199&hl=en&sa=X&ei=OlGKUMH9DISxtAauk4GwDw&ved=0CFQQ6AEwBw
>
> The Crimea had an opinion of a crown jewel, the best vacation resort in
> Soviet Union. So the gesture would appear favorable to Ukrainian commoners.
> In reality...
> Shift the rebuilding cost to the Ukrainian republic
>
> In reality , after the 1944 mass deportations of Crimean Tatars the region
> became an economical disaster zone. It would require major investment, and
> Khrushchev wanted to shift this to the Ukrainian budget.
> http://books.google.com/books?id=l5uiWHgRphQC&lpg=PA500&pg=PA499
>


Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 



On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 10:12 AM, Alan Ginsberg wrote:

> ==
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> ==
>
>
> Russia did not give Crimea to Ukraine. In 1954, the Soviet Union
> transferred Crimea from the Russian SSFR to the Ukranian SSR.
>
> It had nothing to do with Claiborne's nonsensical claim that:
> "Crimea was a basket case so it was more about off loading a
> financial burden onto Ukraine. Of course they made sure their bases would
> endure."
>
> It's absurd to think that the transfer had anything to do with the
> Soviet government's desire to keep its naval bases.
>
> 
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>

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Re: [Marxism] Ukraine: Between 'Popular Uprising for Democracy' and 'Fascist Putsch'

[Clay Claiborne]

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On 03/12/2014 12:15 PM, DW wrote:
> Yes, and four ministries. 
If we are counting vice-ministers, make that 4 out 20
> To Clay, it seems, Svoboda can't be mentioned or
> you are a shill for the Russians. 
I didn't say that, just added context to the claim of "prominent role"
>  Maybe not rump, but far from democratic.
>
That probably can be said of all bourgeois-democratic legislators.

Clay


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Re: [Marxism] Ukraine: Between 'Popular Uprising for Democracy' and 'Fascist Putsch'

[Louis Proyect]

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On 3/12/14 5:06 PM, Shane Mage wrote:


How is it the "Syrians" who are "slimed" when one mentions who makes up
their armed vanguard?


Really, Shane, my problem is not your politics as much as it is your 
superficiality.



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[Marxism] RT is now calling it a military coup.

[Clay Claiborne]

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They are talking about Ukraine not Crimea.

"Ukraine's self-appointed prime minister"

As according to a poll 56% of Americans oppose getting *too* involved in
Ukraine. The 'too' make the question self-answering. [ do 44% support
getting too involved?]

Also they are now saying the people of *southern* Ukraine will determine
their own future.

The addition on "military" to coup so that they can claim US is
violating law by sending funds to Ukraine.


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Re: [Marxism] Ukraine: Between 'Popular Uprising for Democracy' and 'Fascist Putsch'

[Shane Mage]

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On Mar 12, 2014, at 4:46 PM, Louis Proyect wrote:


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On 3/12/14 4:31 PM, Shane Mage wrote:

Q: How many Nazis were ministers in the German government before they
burnt down the Reichstag?
A: One


I see that Shane is back into his one-line analyses of complex  
political phenomena. Must have gotten tired of smearing Syrians. Now  
it is the Ukrainians who get slimed.


How is it the "Syrians" who are "slimed" when one mentions who makes  
up their armed vanguard?
How is it the "Ukranians" who are "slimed" when one mentions who makes  
up their armed vanguard?
Are the "Russians" "slimed" when one mentions that their ruling class  
is still led a clique of gangsters from the Stalinist secret police?




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[Marxism] My thoughts on the Press TV article on whether American Imperialsim is out to undermine Saudi Arabian Monarchy?

[Anthony Brain]

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This on top the Gaza-Israel war breaking out tonight is a very dangerous 
situation which is coming from the global Capitalist crisis which is leading to 
a regional vacumn changes with different Imperialist powers meddeling in. From 
the little information I have I do not know if American and British Imperialism 
are out to overthrow the Saudi Arabian Monarchy so they can greedily gain more 
of the oil and other natural resources. In the last couple of weeks there was a 
report on a item on Newsnight of the Saudi Arabian King imprisoning his 
Princesses. The Saudi Arabian regime has linked up with the Russian and Chinese 
workers' states which is a dialectical irony when they linked up with them 
after Imperialism did not military intervene within Syria last August to 
September 2013. The Saudi Arabian Monarchy is fighting for its life from the 
threat of the anti-Imperialist revolts in Egypt and Tunisia in 2010-11 and 
keeping multiple alliances because they
 cannot trust American Imperialism stabbing them in the back. The Stop the War 
Coalition should campaign against Israeli attacks on Gaza and oppose any 
further Imperialist moves to salvage their possessions within the Middle East!

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[Marxism] Is American Imperialsim making moves to undermine the Saudi Arabian ruling class and its Monarchy in order to greedily own more of its Oli and Natural resources?

[Anthony Brain]

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http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/03/11/354262/ksa-threatens-to-close-qatar-borders/
  

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Re: [Marxism] Ukraine: Between 'Popular Uprising for Democracy' and 'Fascist Putsch'

[Louis Proyect]

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On 3/12/14 4:31 PM, Shane Mage wrote:

Q: How many Nazis were ministers in the German government before they
burnt down the Reichstag?
A: One


I see that Shane is back into his one-line analyses of complex political 
phenomena. Must have gotten tired of smearing Syrians. Now it is the 
Ukrainians who get slimed.



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Re: [Marxism] Ukraine: Between 'Popular Uprising for Democracy' and 'Fascist Putsch'

[Shane Mage]

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On Mar 12, 2014, at 3:15 PM, DW wrote:


Yes, and four ministries. To Clay, it seems, Svoboda can't be  
mentioned or

you are a shill for the Russians. The Parliament is part of the "The
Revolution". The one that has legally banned the opposition parties.
Interesting. Maybe not rump, but far from democratic.


Q: How many Nazis were ministers in the German government before they  
burnt down the Reichstag?

A: One

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Re: [Marxism] Ukraine: Between 'Popular Uprising for Democracy' and 'Fascist Putsch'

[DW]

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Yes, and four ministries. To Clay, it seems, Svoboda can't be mentioned or
you are a shill for the Russians. The Parliament is part of the "The
Revolution". The one that has legally banned the opposition parties.
Interesting. Maybe not rump, but far from democratic.

David

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[Marxism] Ghost graffitist Banksy stands #WithSyria

[Ken Hiebert]

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http://english.alarabiya.net/en/life-style/art-and-culture/2014/03/12/Ghost-graffitist-Banksy-stands-WithSyria.html

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Re: [Marxism] Ukraine: Between 'Popular Uprising for Democracy' and 'Fascist Putsch'

[Clay Claiborne]

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>
> Yatseniuk, of course, now heads the new government in which Svoboda plays
> a prominent role.

By which you mean 3 out of 18 seats?


Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 



On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 7:23 AM, Marv Gandall  wrote:

> ==
> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> ==
>
>
>
> On 2014-03-12, at 8:17 AM, Louis Proyect wrote:
> >
> > On 3/12/14 5:15 AM, Richard Fidler wrote:
> >> Excellent, informative article:
> >> http://www.socialistproject.ca/bullet/948.php.
> >>
> >
> > Well, this is just a crock of shit from Mandel: "The heroes of the
> western provinces collaborated with the German occupation and participated
> in its crimes; the heroes of the east and south fought fascism and for the
> Soviet Union."
> >
> > What evidence is there of the OUN being regarded as "heroes"? I cited a
> poll conducted by social scientists that found that only 8 percent of
> Ukrainians regarded the OUN as the fighting force worthy of support during
> WWII.
>
> That's true. Recall that Ukraine was a Soviet republic, so many of its
> citizens in both the eastern and western provinces would probably have some
> recollection of grandparents or other relatives who were in the Red Army.
> Also, those schooled in the country before the collapse of USSR would have
> been thoroughly educated about the "Great Patriotic War".
>
> It's useful, however, to delve into more detail, as we did when Louis
> first brought the poll to our attention. One would expect Russian-speaking
> Ukrainians in the eastern half of the country to sympathize with the
> Soviets, but it was somewhat surprising and encouraging that a plurality of
> those surveyed in the eastern provinces also supported the Red Army. The
> notable exception was Galicia, whose major city is Lviv. Those surveyed in
> that province strongly favoured Bandera, Shukhevych, and the right-wing
> militias which actively participated in the slaughter of the Jews and in
> war crimes against Russian POW's, pro-Soviet civilians, and Poles living
> inside the western Ukraine. There was more pro-Soviet sentiment among older
> than younger Ukrainians, but not by a significant margin.
>
> The really troubling aspect of the poll is that it confirms the efforts
> which have been underway for some time by the Ukrainian leadership to
> rehabilitate the pro-fascist forces - a development which has undoubted
> gained impetus from the recent Maidan events and the "vanguard" role (to
> use Timothy Snyder's sympathetic description) played by the Right Sector
> and Svoboda. According to the study which examined the poll:
>
> "Supporters of nationalist parties, such as Svoboda and Our Ukraine, are
> likely to embrace different views concerning the war, compared to
> supporters of pro-Communist or pro-Russian parties, such as the Communist
> Party and the Party of Regions. For example, Viktor Yushchenko, President
> of Ukraine from 2005 to 2010 and a leader of the Our Ukraine Bloc, which
> included his party and other nationalist parties, promoted as a centerpiece
> of his policy commemoration of the UPA as fighters for the Ukrainian
> independence and national heroes...Yushchenko awarded the Hero of Ukraine
> title to Roman Shukhevych, the supreme commander of the UPA.
>
> "Svoboda, a radical nationalist party, which won regional elections in
> Galicia in 2010 and won 10.5 percent of the national vote in the 2012
> parliamentary elections, promoted similar  policies, not only concerning
> the UPA but also concerning the SS "Galicia" Division...This party, which
> was originally called the Social-National Party, combined radical
> nationalism with elements of neo-Nazi ideology. Svoboda called for removal
> of war monuments to Soviet soldiers, and it blocked, with the help of
> violence, public celebrations of Victory Day in Lviv in 2011.
>
> "The Yulia Tymoshenko Bloc (BYuT), which was a key member of the Orange
> coalition and presented itself as a democratic pro-Western party, advanced
> a populist ideology and did not emphasize its stance on such historical
> memory issues as World War II. However, after the loss in the 2010
> presidential elections, Tymoshenko's
> Fatherland party started also to adopt a nationalist rhetoric, and
> publicly used a greeting that was used by the OUN-B and the UPA during the
> war. The greeting 'Slava Ukraini' (Glory to Ukraine) and a fascist-style
> hand salute were mode

Re: [Marxism] Fascism?

[Louis Proyect]

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On 3/12/14 12:27 PM, Einde O'Callaghan wrote:

I wondered exactly the same!


I have a feeling that Wayne was talking about Pham Binh's unfortunate 
article and mistakenly used Andrew's name. Let's hope so.



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Re: [Marxism] Democracy Important to Most Ukrainians

[Clay Claiborne]

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http://history.stackexchange.com/questions/4418/why-did-the-ussr-give-crimea-to-ukraine

Khrushchev wanted to (1) test his political power, and (2) to please the
> Ukrainian population, and (3) to shift the rebuilding cost to the Ukrainian
> republic.
> Khrushchev wanted to test his political power
>
> If anyone would wanted to challenge Khrushchev, just rising to power, his
> controversial idea and hollow arguments would be a perfect occasion. The
> stake was very little at the same time. Seemingly Khrushchev wanted to test
> his position before more important changes he may have been planning.
> http://books.google.com/books?id=RwfIEhLDaMsC&lpg=PA310&pg=PA311
> Khrushchev wanted to please the Ukrainian population
>
> While the Russian and Ukrainian cadres were in great friendship ever since
> 1930s (1920s?), Ukrainian people's drive for independence was a recurring
> problem for the Soviet Union. During World War II this drive has risen
> again to a great extent. After the war, Soviet power went into a de-facto
> war with Ukrainian nationalists and relations became very strained.
> http://books.google.com/books?id=DHFDjhPugJIC&pg=PT199&hl=en&sa=X&ei=OlGKUMH9DISxtAauk4GwDw&ved=0CFQQ6AEwBw
>
> The Crimea had an opinion of a crown jewel, the best vacation resort in
> Soviet Union. So the gesture would appear favorable to Ukrainian commoners.
> In reality...
> Shift the rebuilding cost to the Ukrainian republic
>
> In reality , after the 1944 mass deportations of Crimean Tatars the region
> became an economical disaster zone. It would require major investment, and
> Khrushchev wanted to shift this to the Ukrainian budget.
> http://books.google.com/books?id=l5uiWHgRphQC&lpg=PA500&pg=PA499
>


Clay Claiborne, Director
Vietnam: American Holocaust 
Linux Beach Productions
Venice, CA 90291
(310) 581-1536

Read my blogs at the Linux Beach 


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[Marxism] Shades of the dragon tattoo

[Louis Proyect]

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http://www.marxist.com/swedish-labour-movement-rallies-in-response-to-fascist-attack.htm


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Re: [Marxism] Fascism?

[Einde O'Callaghan]

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Am 12.03.2014 14:08, schrieb Andrew Pollack:

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what the fuck are you talking about?


I wondered exactly the same!

Einde O'C allaghan


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Re: [Marxism] Democracy Important to Most Ukrainians

[Andrew Pollack]

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Crimean Tatars most definitely don't want to be part of Russia. And as Clay
documents the wishes of the rest of the population must be viewed in the
context of Hitler's march into the Sudetenland parallel.
Where was the movement for Crimean affiliation to Russia before?
I admit I haven't seen an explanation for why Russia gave Crimea to Ukraine
originally.
But the wishes of the indigenous Tatars -- and the latter's desire for
unity in Ukraine -- come first!


On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 12:32 PM, Clay Claiborne  wrote:

> ==
> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> ==
>
>
> On 03/12/2014 07:34 AM, DW wrote:
> >  In 1992 when Ukrainians voted
> > for independence from the USSR/Russia it passed in the 80 percentiles
> > everywhere in Ukraine, including the east AND Crimea. Conditions change
> > obviously, and can do so overnight.
> Foreign troops can invade overnight,
>
> > No one on this list doubts that most of the population in Crimea wants to
> > split from Ukraine
> Let me speak up and say I do. I do know that Russia has taken complete
> control of Crimea. All Crimea & Ukrainian broadcast outlets (20) save one
> Crimea Tatar (Russia is on a charm offensive among Crimea Tatars, NOW. No
> one Russia doesn't want in Crimea can't cross the border, which is being
> heavily guarded, You can only fly to Crimea from Russia now. The peninsula
> is being heavily propagandized by pro-Russian views only. Pro-Ukraine
> reporters and news outlets have been attacked and beaten by Pro-Russia
> thugs, same is true about any pro-Ukraine protesters with the courage to
> come out under these circumstances. Russian forces have taken over most
> government institutions. There have been reports that many of the
> pro-Russia demonstrator are paid or imported and we have know way of
> knowing to what extend that is true. The up coming vote doesn't even allow
> for a vote to stay with Ukraine, its a rigged vote with the choices being
> "yes, now" and "yes, later", "no" isn't an option.  Most importantly, given
> the facts on the ground and the response of Ukraine and international
> community, it seems pretty certain that Russia will control Crimea with an
> iron hand going forward, many who oppose the Russian takeover can be
> expected to remain silent or even fledge support out of a sense of self
> preservation.
>
> Given these facts, and especially given your revelation that previously
> 80% of Crimea wanted independence from Russia, I have many doubts about
> what the population of Crimea wants.
>
> > The same situation in Kosovo where,
> Wasn't ethnic cleansing going on in Kosovo at the time? Didn't the
> Yugoslavian army attack Kosovo Albanian villages? Weren't there about 15
> massacres of Albanians by Serbs? Nothing like that has happened in
> Crimea so in what world can in be regarded as "the same situation"?
> >  The idiocy of the current Kiev gov't in passing a serious of
> > undemocratic laws, the most important one of which was the return to the
> > post-Orange Revolution that eliminated Russian (and other languages) as
> > "official" languages, though quickly vetoed by the interim-President, is
> > what Russians in the east of their country remember.
> Hadn't Russian been an official language in Ukraine since August 2012 or
> about 17 months before repeal was attempted? I am not supporting its
> repeal, just pointing out a context that rarely gets mentioned.
>
> Clay
>
>
> 
> Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu
> Set your options at:
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>

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Re: [Marxism] Democracy Important to Most Ukrainians

[Clay Claiborne]

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On 03/12/2014 07:34 AM, DW wrote:
>  In 1992 when Ukrainians voted
> for independence from the USSR/Russia it passed in the 80 percentiles
> everywhere in Ukraine, including the east AND Crimea. Conditions change
> obviously, and can do so overnight.
Foreign troops can invade overnight,

> No one on this list doubts that most of the population in Crimea wants to
> split from Ukraine 
Let me speak up and say I do. I do know that Russia has taken complete control 
of Crimea. All Crimea & Ukrainian broadcast outlets (20) save one Crimea Tatar 
(Russia is on a charm offensive among Crimea Tatars, NOW. No one Russia doesn't 
want in Crimea can't cross the border, which is being heavily guarded, You can 
only fly to Crimea from Russia now. The peninsula is being heavily 
propagandized by pro-Russian views only. Pro-Ukraine reporters and news outlets 
have been attacked and beaten by Pro-Russia thugs, same is true about any 
pro-Ukraine protesters with the courage to come out under these circumstances. 
Russian forces have taken over most government institutions. There have been 
reports that many of the pro-Russia demonstrator are paid or imported and we 
have know way of knowing to what extend that is true. The up coming vote 
doesn't even allow for a vote to stay with Ukraine, its a rigged vote with the 
choices being "yes, now" and "yes, later", "no" isn't an option.  Most impo
 rtantly, given the facts on the ground and the response of Ukraine and 
international community, it seems pretty certain that Russia will control 
Crimea with an iron hand going forward, many who oppose the Russian takeover 
can be expected to remain silent or even fledge support out of a sense of self 
preservation. 

Given these facts, and especially given your revelation that previously 80% of 
Crimea wanted independence from Russia, I have many doubts about what the 
population of Crimea wants.

> The same situation in Kosovo where,
Wasn't ethnic cleansing going on in Kosovo at the time? Didn't the
Yugoslavian army attack Kosovo Albanian villages? Weren't there about 15
massacres of Albanians by Serbs? Nothing like that has happened in
Crimea so in what world can in be regarded as "the same situation"?
>  The idiocy of the current Kiev gov't in passing a serious of
> undemocratic laws, the most important one of which was the return to the
> post-Orange Revolution that eliminated Russian (and other languages) as
> "official" languages, though quickly vetoed by the interim-President, is
> what Russians in the east of their country remember.
Hadn't Russian been an official language in Ukraine since August 2012 or
about 17 months before repeal was attempted? I am not supporting its
repeal, just pointing out a context that rarely gets mentioned.

Clay



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[Marxism] Preparatory Notes towards a Dialectic of the Psyche : Part 3

[shaun may]

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Part 3 of some preparatory notes on the origins of the human psyche. Part 4 to 
follow on how the rise of consciousness in Homo is the fundamental 
transformative element in the origination of the human psyche as a whole.


http://spmay.wordpress.com/preparatory-notes-towards-a-dialectic-of-the-psyche-part-3/

http://shaunpmay.wordpress.com
 
http://spmay.wordpress.com
 


 
  

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Re: [Marxism] 'Blackwater' in Ukraine: The etiology of a conspiracy theory

[Richard Menec]

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Not to discount in any way the etiology of a conspiracy theory, but an
interesting letter nonetheless:







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[Marxism] A Relentless Widening of Disparity in Wealth

[Louis Proyect]

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(See 
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/12/business/economy/a-relentless-rise-in-unequal-wealth.html 
for accompanying graphs.)


NY Times, Mar. 12 2014
A Relentless Widening of Disparity in Wealth
by Eduardo Porter

What if inequality were to continue growing years or decades into the 
future? Say the richest 1 percent of the population amassed a quarter of 
the nation’s income, up from about a fifth today. What about half?


To believe Thomas Piketty of the Paris School of Economics, this future 
is not just possible. It is likely.


In his bracing “Capital in the Twenty-First Century,” which hit 
bookstores on Monday, Professor Piketty provides a fresh and sweeping 
analysis of the world’s economic history that puts into question many of 
our core beliefs about the organization of market economies.


His most startling news is that the belief that inequality will 
eventually stabilize and subside on its own, a long-held tenet of free 
market capitalism, is wrong. Rather, the economic forces concentrating 
more and more wealth into the hands of the fortunate few are almost sure 
to prevail for a very long time.


It is possible to slow, or even reverse, the trend, if political leaders 
like President Obama, who proposed that income inequality was the 
“defining challenge of our time,” really push.


“Political action can make this go in the other direction,” Professor 
Piketty told me. But he also adds that history does not offer much hope 
that political action will, in fact, turn the tide: “Universal suffrage 
and democratic institutions have not been enough to make the system react.”


Professor Piketty’s description of inexorably rising inequality probably 
fits many Americans’ intuitive understanding of how the world works 
today. But it cuts hard against the grain of economic orthodoxy that 
prevailed throughout the second half of the 20th century and still holds 
sway today. It was shaped during the early years of the Cold War by the 
Belorussian-born American economist Simon Kuznets.


Painstakingly assembling data from tax returns, Mr. Kuznets estimated 
that between 1913, when the income tax was first introduced in the 
United States, and shortly after the end of World War II in 1948, the 
slice of the nation’s income absorbed by the richest 10 percent of 
Americans declined sharply, to about a third, from a little under half.

Continue reading the main story
Irresistible Inequality

The concentration of income and wealth is deepening around the world, 
driven by more than rising paychecks for top American financiers and 
chief executives. Returns to invested capital are outstripping economic 
growth across advanced countries, directing a growing share of economic 
rewards into the hands of the wealthy.


In his presidential address at the annual meeting of the American 
Economic Association in Detroit in 1954, he sketched out what came to be 
known as inequality’s “Kuznets curve”: “Widening in the early phases of 
economic growth when the transition from the preindustrial to the 
industrial civilization was most rapid; becoming stabilized for a while; 
and then narrowing in the later phases.”


Mr. Kuznets’s conclusion provided a huge moral lift to capitalism as the 
United States faced off with the Soviet Union. It suggested that the 
market economy could distribute its fruits equitably, without any 
heavy-handed intervention of the state.


And it more or less put an end to economists’ interest in the topic. 
Economic theorists assumed that in a balanced economy, wages and profits 
rose at the same pace and turned their attention to the ups and downs of 
the business cycle.


The deep concern about the distribution of income and wealth that 
inspired 19th-century thinkers like David Ricardo and Karl Marx was 
attributed to a misunderstanding of the dynamics of growth leavened with 
the natural pessimism that would come from living in a time of enormous 
wealth and deep squalor, an era that gave us “Les Misérables” and 
“Oliver Twist.”


Today, of course, it’s far from obvious that the 19th-century pessimists 
were entirely wrong.


Glancing back across history from the present-day United States, it 
looks as if Kuznets’s curve swerved way off target. Wages have been 
depressed for years. Profits account for the largest share of national 
income since the 1930s. The richest 10 percent of Americans take a 
larger slice of the economic pie than they did in 1913, at the peak of 
the Gilded Age.


This is not solely an American phenomenon. Across many other developed 
nations, the distribution of economic rewards in the 21st century is 
taking on decidedly 19th-century features.


In “Capital in the Twenty-First Century,” Professor Piketty offers a 
general theory of capitalism that retu

Re: [Marxism] Democracy Important to Most Ukrainians

[Louis Proyect]

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On 3/12/14 10:34 AM, DW wrote:

This is not surprising. Any poll of course under the conditions of civil
strife should be questioned but there is no reason not to believe this one.


The one question Gallup did not ask is the relevant one: do you favor a 
state modeled after Nazi Germany in which Jews and ethnic Russians will 
be ethnically cleansed? If you read people like Gary Leupp, you'd think 
that it would get the highest percentage notwithstanding the fact that 
the Nazis killed more Ukrainians than any other nationality during WWII 
by proportion other than the Jews.



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[Marxism] Democracy Important to Most Ukrainians

[DW]

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This is not surprising. Any poll of course under the conditions of civil
strife should be questioned but there is no reason not to believe this one.

If you look at the history of people's opinions as expressed by the best
poll: voting, you find all sorts of oddities. In 1992 when Ukrainians voted
for independence from the USSR/Russia it passed in the 80 percentiles
everywhere in Ukraine, including the east AND Crimea. Conditions change
obviously, and can do so overnight.

No one on this list doubts that most of the population in Crimea wants to
split from Ukraine (which has zero historical claim to Crimea but a strong
legal one, after all it was 'given' to Ukraine by it's favorite son,
Khrushchev) at least in their majority but...one never knows. The same
situation in Kosovo where, under the guns of NATO occupation, the
overwhelming majority of the population voted to split from Serbia. In both
cases, Ukraine and Serbia, the occupying powers were playing a very cynical
game using "legality" as an excuse reason for intervention.

Thus the "neo"-nationalism of the Russian population is fickle and, can
change. The idiocy of the current Kiev gov't in passing a serious of
undemocratic laws, the most important one of which was the return to the
post-Orange Revolution that eliminated Russian (and other languages) as
"official" languages, though quickly vetoed by the interim-President, is
what Russians in the east of their country remember. The veto is what is
forgotten. I get why the Russian speaking Ukrainians don't so easily forget.

Russian speakers cast their ballots for two parties, generally: The Party
of the Regions and the Ukrainian Communist Party. Bot hare not effectively
illegal. Again, these action are a big "Fuck You" to the Russian speakers.
Thus, again, if you don't understand WHY Russians now are favorable toward
the Russian State, then you can't really carry on a serious conversation
about this.

David

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Re: [Marxism] Ukraine: Between 'Popular Uprising for Democracy' and 'Fascist Putsch'

[Marv Gandall]

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On 2014-03-12, at 8:17 AM, Louis Proyect wrote:
> 
> On 3/12/14 5:15 AM, Richard Fidler wrote:
>> Excellent, informative article:
>> http://www.socialistproject.ca/bullet/948.php.
>> 
> 
> Well, this is just a crock of shit from Mandel: "The heroes of the western 
> provinces collaborated with the German occupation and participated in its 
> crimes; the heroes of the east and south fought fascism and for the Soviet 
> Union."
> 
> What evidence is there of the OUN being regarded as "heroes"? I cited a poll 
> conducted by social scientists that found that only 8 percent of Ukrainians 
> regarded the OUN as the fighting force worthy of support during WWII.

That's true. Recall that Ukraine was a Soviet republic, so many of its citizens 
in both the eastern and western provinces would probably have some recollection 
of grandparents or other relatives who were in the Red Army. Also, those 
schooled in the country before the collapse of USSR would have been thoroughly 
educated about the "Great Patriotic War". 

It's useful, however, to delve into more detail, as we did when Louis first 
brought the poll to our attention. One would expect Russian-speaking Ukrainians 
in the eastern half of the country to sympathize with the Soviets, but it was 
somewhat surprising and encouraging that a plurality of those surveyed in the 
eastern provinces also supported the Red Army. The notable exception was 
Galicia, whose major city is Lviv. Those surveyed in that province strongly 
favoured Bandera, Shukhevych, and the right-wing militias which actively 
participated in the slaughter of the Jews and in war crimes against Russian 
POW's, pro-Soviet civilians, and Poles living inside the western Ukraine. There 
was more pro-Soviet sentiment among older than younger Ukrainians, but not by a 
significant margin.

The really troubling aspect of the poll is that it confirms the efforts which 
have been underway for some time by the Ukrainian leadership to rehabilitate 
the pro-fascist forces - a development which has undoubted gained impetus from 
the recent Maidan events and the "vanguard" role (to use Timothy Snyder's 
sympathetic description) played by the Right Sector and Svoboda. According to 
the study which examined the poll:

"Supporters of nationalist parties, such as Svoboda and Our Ukraine, are likely 
to embrace different views concerning the war, compared to supporters of 
pro-Communist or pro-Russian parties, such as the Communist Party and the Party 
of Regions. For example, Viktor Yushchenko, President of Ukraine from 2005 to 
2010 and a leader of the Our Ukraine Bloc, which included his party and other 
nationalist parties, promoted as a centerpiece of his policy commemoration of 
the UPA as fighters for the Ukrainian independence and national 
heroes...Yushchenko awarded the Hero of Ukraine title to Roman Shukhevych, the 
supreme commander of the UPA. 

"Svoboda, a radical nationalist party, which won regional elections in Galicia 
in 2010 and won 10.5 percent of the national vote in the 2012 parliamentary 
elections, promoted similar  policies, not only concerning the UPA but also 
concerning the SS “Galicia” Division...This party, which was originally called 
the Social-National Party, combined radical nationalism with elements of 
neo-Nazi ideology. Svoboda called for removal of war monuments to Soviet 
soldiers, and it blocked, with the help of violence, public celebrations of 
Victory Day in Lviv in 2011.

"The Yulia Tymoshenko Bloc (BYuT), which was a key member of the Orange 
coalition and presented itself as a democratic pro-Western party, advanced a 
populist ideology and did not emphasize its stance on such historical memory 
issues as World War II. However, after the loss in the 2010 presidential 
elections, Tymoshenko’s
Fatherland party started also to adopt a nationalist rhetoric, and publicly 
used a greeting that was used by the OUN-B and the UPA during the war. The 
greeting 'Slava Ukraini' (Glory to Ukraine) and a fascist-style hand salute 
were modeled by the OUN on similar greetings and salutes by other fascist and 
semi-fascist parties...The Fatherland Party, which was led by Arseni Yatseniuk 
after Tymoshenko’s imprisonment on criminal charges, formed a political 
alliance with Svoboda during the 2010 parliamentary elections and after the 
elections."

Yatseniuk, of course, now heads the new government in which Svoboda plays a 
prominent role.

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Re: [Marxism] Fascism?

[h0ost]

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On 03/11/2014 05:00 PM, sha...@aol.com wrote:

> Yeah. Andrew Pollack said that.
> 
> My grandmother would tell Andrew Pollack to have his head examined.
> Has he ever read a shred of Lenin on the National Question. Doubtful,
> no evidence of it shows.
> 


Is it possible to turn off the aesopian language and be a bit more specific?


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Re: [Marxism] Ukraine: Between 'Popular Uprising for Democracy' and 'Fascist Putsch'

[Shane Mage]

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On Mar 12, 2014, at 8:17 AM, Louis Proyect wrote:


On 3/12/14 5:15 AM, Richard Fidler wrote:

Excellent, informative article:
http://www.socialistproject.ca/bullet/948.php.



Well, this is just a crock of shit from Mandel: "The heroes of the  
western provinces collaborated with the German occupation and  
participated in its crimes; the heroes of the east and south fought  
fascism and for the Soviet Union."


What evidence is there of the OUN being regarded as "heroes"? I  
cited a poll conducted by social scientists that found that only 8  
percent of Ukrainians regarded the OUN as the fighting force worthy  
of support during WWII.


Well, what is a "hero?" If that refers to the armed, courageous, and  
self-sacrificing vanguard--well, all the unblind now recognize Pravy  
Sektor as that vanguard. If that refers to political figures in the  
lineage of the politically aware population, who in the "western  
provinces" has that stature? I've not heard of any (AUW and their  
Makhno fetish notwithstanding) except Bandera?  Have you?  You cited  
some poll by "social scientists," but you denounce citing the real  
poll in the most recent elections, in which Svoboda got 13 percent  
nationally out of the "western provinces" that make up less than half  
the voters--thus more than a quarter of the vote in  those areas--as a  
"crock of shit."  The only such crock visible being the one from which  
you seem constantly to be grasping turds to sling at anyone who  
disagrees with you.





Shane Mage

"L'après-vie, c'est une auberge espagnole. L'on n'y trouve que ce  
qu'on a apporté."


Bardo Thodol





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Re: [Marxism] Fascism?

[Andrew Pollack]

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what the fuck are you talking about?


On Tue, Mar 11, 2014 at 5:00 PM,  wrote:

> ==
> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> ==
>
>
>
> Yeah. Andrew Pollack said that.
>
> My grandmother would tell Andrew Pollack to have his head examined. Has he
> ever read a shred of Lenin on the National Question. Doubtful, no evidence
> of it shows.
>
> Wayne Collins
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Andrew Pollack 
> To: Wayne M. Collins 
> Sent: Mon, Mar 10, 2014 7:37 pm
> Subject: Re: [Marxism] Fascism?
>
>
> ==
> Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
> ==
>
>
> serious as a heart attack
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu
> Set your options at:
> http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/acpollack2%40gmail.com
>

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[Marxism] ‘Blackwater’ in Ukraine: The etiology of a conspiracy theory

[Louis Proyect]

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http://warincontext.org/2014/03/11/blackwater-in-ukraine-the-etiology-of-a-conspiracy-theory/


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Re: [Marxism] Ukraine: Between 'Popular Uprising for Democracy' and 'Fascist Putsch'

[Louis Proyect]

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On 3/12/14 5:15 AM, Richard Fidler wrote:

Excellent, informative article:
http://www.socialistproject.ca/bullet/948.php.



Well, this is just a crock of shit from Mandel: "The heroes of the 
western provinces collaborated with the German occupation and 
participated in its crimes; the heroes of the east and south fought 
fascism and for the Soviet Union."


What evidence is there of the OUN being regarded as "heroes"? I cited a 
poll conducted by social scientists that found that only 8 percent of 
Ukrainians regarded the OUN as the fighting force worthy of support 
during WWII.



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Re: [Marxism] Excellent resolution by FI on Syria

[Michael Karadjis]

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-Original Message- 
From: John Obrien


"can please explain how Gay and Lesbian rights are not mentioned in
this multi point document - when reports of torture and murder
of Syrian Gays and Lesbians are being actively carried out?

"And these murders and tortures have been with the assistance of
Syrian National Council forces - that this ICFI "document" calls for
support to?  Seems the usual homophobic crap that has not changed
much in disrespect and ignoring the real oppression of Gays and 
Lesbians."


Of course I could use John's method and ask him why he thinks it is 
preferable for Syrian gays and lesbians to be bombed to bits by a regime 
waging unlimited war against its population. Well, he says he doesn't 
support the regime. So doesn't he support the regime being removed, 
preferably smashed to bits, so that it is unable to continue destroying 
all its cities and the people who live in them.


But never mind about that. To have this discussion, can you kindly 
provide the evidence - first, of these cases of torture and murder, some 
idea of how widespread the problem is, and above all, your evidence that 
"these murders and tortures have been with the assistance of Syrian 
National Council forces". Without this evidence, discussion will simply 
be discussion about a bunch of assumptions.






The "message" of this ICFI document to those who care about Gays and
Lesbians is clearly hostile - which I guess does not matter to some on 
this
list who have always not cared and only hoped the Gay/Lesbian rights 
issue
would go away.  What is going away is willingness to put up with this 
open

disrespect and disregard for the lives of Gays and Lesbians.

As a Marxist, I can not support the Syrian National Council which is a 
puppet
of Saudi Arabia, Qatar and European and USA imperialists.  I oppose 
Assad

and his murderous attacks on civilians, but can not support homophobic
murderous groups either!





From: mkarad...@gmail.com
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2014 23:16:17 +1100





Excellent resolution by FI on Syria

Fourth International: Resolution on Syria
Posted on March 11, 2014

http://syriafreedomforever.wordpress.com/2014/03/11/fourth-international-resolution-on-syria/

This resolution on support for and solidarity with the Syrian people’s
uprising was adopted by an overwhelming majority at the International
Committee meeting of the Fourth International on 25 February 2014.

The ongoing uprising against the Assad dictatorship, which started in
March 2011, is a movement for democratic, social and economic rights
similar to that which erupted in Tunisia and Egypt at the end of 2010
and the beginning of 2011. It is part of the “Arab Uprisings”.

years on, there are over 130,000 dead, 4.5 million internally 
displaced

and more than 3 million refugees from a country of 24 million.





The repressive regime in Syria has ruled since 1970 when Hafiz 
al-Assad

took power in a coup. Despite its secular claims, the Syrian regime
adopted sectarian and kinship-based favouritism to consolidate its 
rule.


Since the 1970s the regime has encouraged conservative Islam in order 
to

add to its own legitimacy including by making large contributions
Islamic schools and propagating Islam in the media. In 1973, following
protests from some Sunni religious personalities, Hafiz Al Assad
introduced an amendment to a new constitution, which declared that 
“the

religion of the president is Islam”. This article has been kept in the
“new” constitution adopted by the current regime in March 2012; which
added a new clause: “Islamic jurisprudence is a source of all
legislation”. Bachar Al Assad is continuing these policies and
increasing collaboration with religious associations as well as
accelerating neoliberal policies. These measures are accompanied by
censorship, and the promotion of religious literature and 
Islamicization

of higher education.





The political character of the forces that oppose the regime is
extremely diverse and contradictory. There is a small but significant
leftist, progressive and democratic element, organised mainly within 
the
local co-ordinating committees. This element is seeing a modest 
growth.


The Islamist forces, backed by different external forces (primarily
Qatar and the Saudi kingdom) are warring amongst themselves – 
militarily

as well as politically. One of the most positive developments over
recent months has been the resistance of large parts of the population
to these Islamist forces.

Women have been a significant part of the uprising including on the
front line against fundamentalist forces that seek to restrict women’s
rights even further.

But fundamentalist Islamists are a lot stronger now than at the
beginning of the war. They have received money and resour

[Marxism] Ukraine: Between 'Popular Uprising for Democracy' and 'Fascist Putsch'

[Richard Fidler]

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Excellent, informative article:
http://www.socialistproject.ca/bullet/948.php.

 

 


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[Marxism] What's new at Links: Green Left's 1000th, Tariq Ali on Chavez, Ernie Tate's memoir, Bob Crow RIP; Kagarlitsky, Melenchon on Ukraine, Venezuela, NUMSA, Althusser

[glparramatta]

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What's new at Links: Green Left's 1000th, Tariq Ali on Chavez, Ernie 
Tate's memoir, Bob Crow RIP; Kagarlitsky, Melenchon on Ukraine, 
Venezuela, NUMSA, Althusser


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   Australia's premier socialist newspaper, 'Green Left Weekly',
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By *Mel Barnes*, /Green Left Weekly/ editor
March 8, 2014 --  You can tell how good a newspaper is from the enemies 
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the new /Saturday Paper/, launched last weekend, and used its ultimate 
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option and promotes a "user-pays" system in health care, education and 
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March 11, 2014 -- I think it is useful to specify [my position on 
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*If your organisation would like to sign this statement, please email: i 
nternatio...@socialist-alliance.org 
*


March 11, 2014 -- /Links International Journal of Socialist Renewal /-- 
Socialists in Asia-Pacific pledge support for Venezuela's socialist 
revolution, a year after Chavez's death.


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   Boris Kagarlitsky: 'Polite intervention' and the Ukrainian uprising
   

By *Boris Kagarlitsky*, Moscow; translated by *Renfrey Clarke*
March 4, 2014 -- Why, do you suppose, war has not yet broken out between 
Russia and Ukraine? The answer is very simple: no one plans to go to 
war, and no one can. Kiev for practical purposes does not have an army, 
while the government that has appeared in Kiev has no control over half 
of Ukraine, and cannot even exercise particular control over its own 
supporters. If the Ukrainian authorities make any serious attempt to 
mobilise their forces, this will merely provoke new protests. Even 
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By *