Re: [Marxism] Australian Socialist Alliance edges into the Putinite camp
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Obviously Louis is correct - people who don't know jack shit about the Ukraine are the most qualified to comment on it. After all, that's the traditional Left approach! The sad truth is that endless circular debates with Putinites are an epic waste of time. Even reading them is eye-stabbingly pointless. That's why you don't hear much from Socialist Alliance members on these topics. Articles posted on Links aren't "line" documents. Socialist Alliance *isn't* the US SWP in drag. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] L&W: a mercenary London publisher empowering imperialist privilege
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I have no interest in defending L&W, but as far as I'm aware it's only an English translation of this material that they are claiming copyright on. As far as I am aware, the following statements are correct: The original texts are public domain. Other English translations are unaffected. Translations into other languages are unaffected too. In theory, then, the Cubans or anyone else can continue to make use of, say, Spanish translations until they turn purple. Unfortunately, even a lot of non-native English speakers have to rely on English translations. (See the South African case for a Real World(tm) example). If there were alternative translations of this material, telling L&W to fuck themselves would be an option. Unfortunately, such translations don't appear to exist, and it's not trivial to create new ones. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Towards a Socialist Australia: latest draft
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == For my money, it's a much better document than the previous draft. I was particularly impressed by reading it after thinking about the "March in March" phenomenon (http://marchinmarch.com.au/ ), a grassroots response to the reactionary rampage of the vile Abbott government, who are doing there very best to destroy anything positive about Australia - the Great Barrier Reef, our pathetic remnant forests, unions, healthcare, education... well anything really. This is the response we need, and it's the kind of thing Towards a Socialist Australia point too. This is good. Should I say something more interesting? March in March is most probably a one-off, awesome though it is. But it points towards the kind of movement we need. It also is an interesting reality check for the Australian left - do we actually have cadres? Can our comrades respond to this kind of break out? If we can't we should dissolve all our organisations and go to the pub. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Gina Rinehart compares herself to Nelson Mandela
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Satire, of course. Unlike Tony Abbott comparing himself to Aung San Suu Kyi, which happened. From: Stuart Munckton > The world’s richest woman has compared her ‘struggle’ with that of former > South African President Nelson Mandela’s. ... http://burdekinherald.com/2013/12/12/gina-rinehart-compares-self-to-nelson-mandela/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Professor predicts human time travel this century
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == My totally and really truly scientific theory is that it isn't possible to travel backwards in time to a point before the first time machine becomes active. That is, we don't see time travellers because time travel hasn't been invented yet. The corollary to that is that time travel to the future beyond the point when the last time machine goes offline is only possible at the 1 second per second rate. OK, it's no more sensible than anything else, but at least it explains one thing. Obviously I'm not serious. Another suggestion I sometimes use to troll certain kinds of Christian with is to suggest that Jesus was basically just another hillbilly preacher who only became a threat because of the swarms of time travelling Evangelical nutcases he attracted. In other words, they were the reason why he was crucified. And that explains what happened to his body too. For some reason they tend not to be amused by this. Scarves and blue boxes help, though. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Interesting factoid
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Gary MacLenna > They mystery for me is, I repeat, why the Socialist Alliance, bothers. All our efforts should address the Greens as an essential element in building a broad formation. The Greens have no interest in being part of a broad formation. They are monopolists in the field of politics. They don't even like their own left wing very much. Socialist Alternative are on the ground in the same places as Socialist Alliance, and on the same side. They are natural allies. It boils down to the following two options: a. Turf war. That is, petty bourgeois shopkeeper politics. b. Unity. Pick One. Now, for the moment, unity is on hold. Does that mean the other choice has to come to the fore? Well, not really. The cooperation agreement, if followed through, will hopefully tone that down. Mind you, if I was a Socialist Alliance leader, I would be looking at what resources could be redirected into building Resistance. (Conveniently, the Resistance conference is in Brisbane in about three weeks time). Strengthening Socialist Alliance's youth work would have all kinds of benefits. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Unity and organisation on the Australian left
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On 11/19/13 8:36 PM, En Passant with John Passant wrote: > "We are for unity around a clear cut revolutionary program - a socialist > program for Australia today. From: Louis Proyect > Do these people have any idea what was in the Erfurt Programme? Or what > Lenin proposed as a *program* for the Russian social democracy? Or for > that matter, the program found in the Communist Manifesto? I am afraid > that the Socialist Alternative people view "program" the same way that > we in the SWP did in the bad old days, intellectual property that > distinguishes you from your competition--like the formula for Coca-Cola. For the record, Socialist Alliance agreed with the need for a clear cut revolutionary program, and altered one of their documents which was arguably ambiguous on this point. This was an obvious starting point for the discussion. "Yes we are revolutionaries". Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Australian amoebaism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == This is in part a Socialist Alliance polemic against Socialist Alternative, mixed with a lot of motherhood statements. To me it indicates that there is no potential for the unity process between the groups to restart. --- Dave Holmes: Strengthening the socialist movement today By Dave Holmes [The following talk was presented at the Socialist Ideas Conference held in Melbourne, November 2, 2013, organised by the Socialist Alliance.] November 18, 2013 -- Links International Journal of Socialist Renewal/Arguing for Socialism -- http://links.org.au/node/3595 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Australian amoebaism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Something obviously completely unrelated and not a polemic at all: Mass protests key to winning change Saturday, November 16, 2013 By Sue Bolton Over the years, I have heard many left-wing activists say that mass peaceful protests do not achieve anything. Rather, “militant actions” which “take it up to the ruling class” are more important. But for smaller direct actions to have any real political significance, they have to be connected to a patient and democratic approach to building mass movements that can win reforms. Smaller direct actions that are not tied to this political aim are a posture. In a period of relative political quiet, some on the left are being snookered into the false idea that demonstrations that insist on direct action and militancy are the only way to win reforms. This is a failed strategy, because it rests on the notion that a tiny number of conscientious and outraged activists can frighten or shock the ruling class into delivering reforms or stopping cuts. This sort of idealism is dangerous, and ignores evidence of how social movements throughout history have grown and succeeded in their aims. Rest at: https://www.greenleft.org.au/node/55381 Also: http://www.marxists.org/archive/camejo/1970/ultraleftismormassaction.htm Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Australian amoebaism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == What happened between Socialist Alliance and Socialist Alternative in Australia. The last letter in the "Recent correspondence" section is the key, for better or worse. http://alliancevoices.blogspot.com.au/2013/11/dossier-on-unity-talks-between.html Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Australian amoebaism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == While I'm a big fan of the idea of not being tourists, living in the working classand all of that, and have gone on the record advocating that many times, there is another side that has to be remembered: without youth recruitment, your organisation will die. We've seen this in Australia, where the Communist Party of Australia (the current one, not the original) has hollowed out over decades due to a lack of youth recruitment. Basically, nobody cares about them as an organisation any more. Some of their people are good activists, but as an organisation - nothing. This is the sane part of the "combat party" model - it is oriented towards radicalising youth. On a good day this can keep an organisation relatively sane and healthy for an extended period. Or, of course, they can all go batshit crazy in short order. Unfortunately we haven't yet found a model that can combine the energy and activism of youth and the ability to reliably maintain long term commitment from folks with less time (who may not actually be older than the more footloose "youth"). This is one of the differences between Socialist Alliance and Socialist Alternative. Socialist Alliance has more members on paper, but seems to have fewer young people on the ground. The actual leaderships seem to have similar age profiles, which is a good reason to unite, since a whole layer of comrades in both groups are getting a bit long in the tooth. The youth are critical, and we need to organise accordingly. And also allow for everyone else, somehow. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Down with amoebaism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Gary MacLennan > Those still built on "party" building are in a hole and they are digging > frantically. Socialist Alternative don't see it that way. From their perspective they are taking the lead, increasing their influence, and growing. Of course, part of that is that Socialist Alliance is largely keeping out of their way and actually helping them in many cases. And that is one of the interesting aspects. To an extent, and largely unconsciously, Socialist Alliance is sacrificing its own growth in favour of helping SAlt. (At least, that's my impression from Toowoomba). The unity process *was* Socialist Alliance's party building strategy. It's not over yet, either. Even without the formal process, the collaborative approach can and should continue. At worst, much of the remnants of Socialist Alliance will end up collapsing into SAlt. Boo hoo. But, of course, that raises the question of what would happen to the others. In fact, we have seen a degree of amoebaism in Australia recently. Only about half of the original membership of the Revolutionary Socialist Party joined Socialist Alternative. The rest ended up scattered all over the landscape. None of them seem to have formed new groups - although there seems to have been a half-hearted attempt in Brisbane. There have even been a degree of scattering from the Socialist Alliance as well. Again, this has been largely unorganised individuals, but there has been a specific case of an individual joining a crypto-Stalinist Spartoid sect that could probably fit it's entire membership in a phone box. Yes, the Australian left is growing new sects. Just what we need. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Down with amoebaism
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Louis Proyect > We are far more interested in unity and have keen interest in initiatives > being taken in that > direction in Australia and Britain. Bad news about that. --- Unity talks stall, but collaboration to continue Saturday, November 9, 2013 By Peter Boyle & Susan Price Unity negotiations between Australia's two largest socialist organisations, the Socialist Alliance and Socialist Alternative, ended after the latter's National Committee decided on October 26-27 that the unity process had “reached an impasse and consequently we are for ending the negotiations with the Alliance”. ... Rest at: https://www.greenleft.org.au/node/55341 I can't find a statement from Socialist Alternative at this point. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] False flag operation?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: m...@smithbowen.net > I've just been reading Alex C's wonderful posthumous collection > of random writing, titled 'A Colossal Wreck'. I recommend it unreservedly. > > To see him dismissively referred to by any denizen > of this list as 'something of a character' reminds me of Marx's > observation that he had left some manuscript or other 'to the gnawing > criticism of the mice'. What's dismissive about it? The guy was a notorious contrarian, and some of the stuff he wrote was downright weird. That doesn't devalue the stuff that wasn't. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] False flag operation?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From:Rajesh Roy > Maybe my memory is erroneous.. is this the same Cockburn who has sometimes been derided here over his views on other issues? or was that another > Cockburn? While Patrick Cockburn has indeed been derided here over his views on other issues, you may be thinking about his late brother, Alexander Cockburn, who was an editor of Counterpunch, and something of a "character". Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Linux Beach: Syria: 10 Things Worse Than Eating a Dead Man’s Heart
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On a not entirely unrelated note, here is a quote from an article that should be going up on the Pakistan oriented Viewpoint e-zine within the next day or so. The article is about Jammu and Kashmir, written by a Pakistani leftist from the region. The JKLF is (was?) the:Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front, a secular nationalist organisation.. "Sheikh Abdullah was replaced by his son Farooq Abdullah. But Farooq soon lost Delhi’s favour. Delhi was intervening to install a puppet government through rigged elections. When it did not work out, a state of emergency was imposed in Kashmir. The new layer of Kashmiri youth inspired by Maqbool Butt went his way. A mass uprising broke out in Kashmir in 1988. The JKLF-led armed struggle coupled with a wave of mass strikes virtually paralysed the Kashmir valley. The JKLF leadership, however, had committed a blunder. It sought help from the Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) of Pakistan. The ISI was very happy to engage India in a proxy war in Kashmir. However, the secularist, pro-Independence JKLF was not acceptable to Pakistan for long. As soon as the beards were no longer needed in Afghanistan, they were re-organised for launching Jihad afresh in Kashmir. The first victims of bearded Jihad were intellectuals and secular, pro-independence political activists, mainly sympathetic to the JKLF. The JKLF was split into many factions with ISI money. At times infighting, fuelled by the ISI, was claiming more lives than the counter-insurgency operations of Indian forces. In 1994, JKLF leader Aman Ullah Khan told me there were over 30 militant Kashmiri groups fighting each other. What had started in 1988 as a powerful mass movement had by the mid-1990s turned into a fiasco. Soon the lush green Kashmir valley was littered with blood. In the 1990s if anything grew in Kashmir, it was graveyards." Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The international Jewish Communist conspiracy department
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Michael Smith > > The race hatred directed against more recent generations of non-white > > immigrants , especially Muslims, is a much more serious problem than > > contemporary anti-semitism, though manifestations of each should be > > fought equally vigorously. > > Don't quite get the logic of this: a serious problem and a > not-so-serious problem should be 'fought equally vigorously'? "manifestations of each". That is, they don't manifest as frequently as each other, but when they do... Perfectly logical. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Socialist Alliance resolution on left unity
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == An update on moves towards unity between the two biggest left groups in Australia. Note: nothing about the 21 Conditions, "Zinovievism" or any other old twaddle. --- http://www.socialist-alliance.org/page.php?page=1291 Socialist Alliance resolution on left unity The following resolution was adopted by the Socialist Alliance national council meeting on June 10. *** • If socialism is not just to be a good idea, it has to become a movement of the working class and other oppressed groups. It flows from this that to build the socialist movement we have to have a permanent focus on linking up with the activists and leaders of the working class and oppressed groups who are fighting capitalist oppression. We see the current unity discussions with Socialist Alternative as a step toward building a pole of attraction to socialism as part of this process. Rest at: http://www.socialist-alliance.org/page.php?page=1291 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Fwd: Re: The Lash
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Mark Lause > And another attempt to discuss the practical problems trying to get a > socialist group past a certain size is clubbed with an antiquaria issue > like a baby seal wandering into Sarah Palin's backyard . . . . This might > actually demonstrate part of the reason for the problem. :-) Sledging the ISO in CounterPunch is an "attempt to discuss the practical problems trying to get a socialist group past a certain size"? Sounds more like a sectarian conversation stopper to me. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] ECO-SOCIALIST UTOPIANISM
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I gather the article that I am responding to was mainly aimed at members of Solidarity, that is, not me. I'm going to respond anyway. From: pauldaniel...@aol.com > THE VEGETABLE > > Recent discussion of eco-socialism is too far up in the theoretical clouds. > We need to take up issues at a more down to earth level. We need > environmental issues in the way LABOR NOTES deals with union issues. Unfortunately, this article is the exact opposite of "a more down to earth level". Instead, it is a spectacular collection of unsubstantiated claims and strawmen. > The article Nick Davenport’s wrote for AGAINST THE CURRENT last year is a > start. In it he summarizes the proposals made by the eco-socialists and > gives us a glimpse of what the new utopia established by the eco-sociaists > will be like. This appears to be the article referred to: http://www.solidarity-us.org/site/node/3718 Frankly, to me it looks like a rather basic and non-specific overview of the issue, of a kind that could have been written at any point within the last twenty years or so. Profound only if you've never seen anything like it before, and otherwise inoffensive. It certainly doesn't justify ranting like the following: > Our single family homes will be gone along with our cars. We will be > getting around on bikes or on new solar powered public transit. Nick is not > too specific about what our new communal housing will be like. Obviously the > rooms will be small and modestly furnished with lots of shared spaces for > laundry and cooking. The image that comes to mind to me is the assisted > living facility by Grass Valley where my sister and I put my 93 year mother >several months before she died. and so on and so on A serious and concrete discussion of socialism and the environment is necessary, but this isn't it. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Merchants of Shame » CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Louis Proyect > I wonder why people like Andrew and Dennis Brasky have so much trouble making > substantive contributions > on the issues under debate. Unfortunately, the Counterpunch editors themselves have trivialised the discussion. Examples: "Well, the Socialist Worker types don’t do irony. ... They are rich and well-educated at elite schools, such as Brown and Northwestern. Many of them live off of trust funds. Most rarely converse with poor people and have only a vague, theoretical notion of what life is like when you are indigent, black and have just been diagnosed with breast cancer (if you can even afford to get diagnosed)." and: "(In spite of this laborious self-consciousness about its place as a hipster utopia, Portland hosts more strip clubs than any other city its size and lissome Earth First!ers are often glimpsed pole-dancing at Mary’s Club during the winter months to fund their high-wire activism in defense of ancient forests when the snows melt and the chainsaws fire up. For them, stripping is a much less humiliating experience than applying for a grant from the Pew Charitable Trusts.)" So how are you supposed to respond to that? Trust-fund Trots and pole-dancing "lissome Earth First!ers"? WTF? Andrew Pollack's response of "So fuck off, Counterpunch" may not be ideal, but it's about as serious and political as the Counterpunch editors deserve. And, no, I don't particularly think that their choice of not replacing the word 'tits" with something else (breasts?) is any terrible offense. They've just taken the discussion to a new and even stupider low. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Socialist election campaign: 2795 views in a little over 12 hours - help us take it further
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: DW > Alan B simply assumes we WTF he's babling about and then inundates us with Not me. ALEX B, a comrade from Perth. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Social Democracy and Public Housing in Vienna
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Red Arnie > About 60% of the Viennese population lives in municipally built, owned, or > managed housing. To me, this kind of thing is a reminder of how much Australian cities differ from their European counterparts. While both Sydney and Melbourne have high-rise public housing, the main variety here is low density suburban housing - a variation on the suburban sprawl that most Australians (working class or other) inhabit. While there has always been such sprawl, it really got going after 1945, with the previous inner city working class communities being decimated at the same time as Australia's population boomed. (It's more than tripled since 1945). The overwhelming majority of the housing that resulted is privately owned by its occupants, or rented out. Public housing is a secondary phenomena, and the stock of such housing is naturally inadequate. Personally, high rise housing gives me the horrors. I like my patch of sprawl. But there's no doubt that high rise is the way to go ecologically. The major Australian cities are already occupying areas the size of small countries, especially when their neighbouring satellite areas are factored in. This requires additional transport and other infrastructure, and much of the land on which they were built was originally prime farmland. This sprawl needs to be halted. Of course this needs to be done in a way that doesn't condemn the working class to a life locked up like battery hens in grey concrete boxes. Perhaps the Viennese experience provides insights into useful alternatives to this. There are some photos here: http://archpaper.com/news/articles.asp?id=6205 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Leninism and its Discontents: An Interview with Pham Binh
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Gary MacLennan > Pham said > > “'Leninism' refuses to die *because* it must be superseded in practice by > forms of organizing that are bigger, better, more effective, and more > durable (my emphasis). > > My comment: I wonder did he mean the "because" or should he have said > something like > > “'Leninism' refuses to die even though it must be superseded in practice by > forms of organizing that are bigger, better, more effective, and more > durable". As I read it, Pham said exactly what he meant. "Leninism" will not be superseded until something real actually exists to supersede it. Perfectly correct on Pham's part, and perfectly sensible, if conservative, on the part of the "Leninists". The trick is to create the new "forms of organizing". Just talking about it won't do it. But of course there's always a high probability that any particular project will failure, meaning that there is always a risk that whatever forces are involved in the project will fall apart, leaving the left smaller, weaker and less effective than we were before. And that provides justification for caution on the part of the "Leninists". (Of course, that reasonable caution often isn't the only factor in play...) On the other side of the issue, there are those who feel no such caution. Unfortunately, too often that's because they are not actually engaged in concrete attempts to build such new organizations. Life is easy in the realm of abstractions. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] why isn't there a British Syriza?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: james pitman > This is kinda funny, and I thought I'd share as one of the [now ex] > swp oppositionists: our attempts to set up a new point of contact > between ourselves and other comrades leaving the party or anyone else > on the left for that matter, were temporarily derailed when we found > out that the url/ domain name we were directing interested parties to > was tonight snapped up by a member of the swp, and was actually > redirecting people back to the socialist worker website. > > The primacy of politics, eh?!? It is kinda funny, and of course a bit sad if you take it seriously. In the long run, though, silly, petty stuff like this can actually be good for the (ex) oppositionists. It's not hard for majority supporters to see this stuff for what it is, and that can be a starting point for rebuilding bridges on a personal level - which you will need to do, if only to work together in the movements. Not to mention that disowning the obviously stupidities can be a starting point for reconsidering the more profound ones Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] why isn't there a British Syriza?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Gary MacLennan >. Part of the reason why we do not have a British SYRIZA is because we have a >British SWP. This reminds me of the really interesting thing about SYRIZA - it exists despite the opposition of the KKE. The existence of the KKE is one of the obvious differences between Greece and Britain (and Australia). There's nothing even remotely like it in the UK. And it's the KKE, *not* the SWP that is the epitome of Zinovievism, and the related sectarianism. I would almost go so far as to say that Zinovievism doesn't really exist in Britain! Almost, because I'd be trolling, but there is a little bit of truth there. The SWP, like all the groups on the Australian left, is only a big fish because the pond is so tiny. But I agree with Nick Fredman when he noted, "To tie this to the first point, I think in the absence of mass struggles that make a new party more obvious, "narrow" change in socialist groups, and "narrow" regroupment is a lot better than nothing, might be the most appropriate and realistic thing to do, and might lead to a better basis for future growth." And that's why the struggle of the SWP oppositionists (both those now outside and those still in) is important, and that's why the unification between Socialist Alternative and the RSP in Australia is important too. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Day of the People: Gracchus Babeuf and the Communist Idea
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Mark Lause > Yes, but I didn't think that I had denied the possibilities of > generational continuities in Paris by pointing out that existed > elsewhere, too. :-) That's true of course. I think one of the factors muddying the discussion is the Trotskyist, and especially Cannonist/Barnesite, obsession with "revolutionary continuity". That's probably where the "Apostolic Succession" red herring came from - a reaction against that particular bonnet bee, even though it was actually irrelevant. It's not easy to stop seeing Jack Barnes' face in places where it doesn't exist. Anyway, I think I've pretty much said everything I want to on the topic. It was a cool thing to revisit, but it was a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away... Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Day of the People: Gracchus Babeuf and the Communist Idea
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Mark Lause > Far be it from me to challenge someone's faith in their claim to the > Apostolic Successions, Apostolic Successions??? What? I simply wouldn't have imagined the concept that Parisian revolutionaries of the 1830s would seek inspiration from their predecessors (in the same city, even!) in the revolution of the 1790s would be in any way controversial. The older ones could have been *there at the time*! (Despite generally shorter life expectancies). Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Day of the People: Gracchus Babeuf and the Communist Idea
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Engels has some interesting comments on the issue of continuity between the Communists and the Babouvists. From http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1885hist.htm "* In 1836 the most extreme, chiefly proletarian elements of the secret democratic-republican Outlaws’ League, which was founded by German refugees in Paris in 1834, split off and formed the new secret League of the Just. ... The new League, on the contrary, developed comparatively rapidly. Originally it was a German outlier of the French worker-Communism, reminiscent of Babouvism and taking shape in Paris at about this time; community of goods was demanded as the necessary consequence of “equality”. The aims were those of the Parisian secret societies of the time: half propaganda association, half conspiracy, Paris, however, being always regarded as the central point of revolutionary action, although the preparation of occassional putsches in Germany was by no means excluded. But as Paris remained the decisive battleground, the League was at that time actually not much more than the German branch of the French secret societies, especially the Societe des saisons led by Blanqui and Barbes, with which a close connections was maintained. The French went into action on May 12, 1839; the sections of the League marched with them and thus were involved in the common defeat." "Reminiscent of Babouvism", and with connections to Blanqui, who acknowledged his debt to Buonarotti and Babeuf. I can't define "continuity", but I think that's an example. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Day of the People: Gracchus Babeuf and the Communist Idea
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Daniel Koechlin > Babeuf was only one among the many Utopian Communists of the 17th to 19th > centuries. In England, > Winstanley was in many regards even more forward-looking than Babeuf. > > All those figures had many things in common, including a hatred of the > existing social order and a sense > that the dispossesed never had a voice of their own. The significance of Babeuf, as a leader of the radical wing of the French revolution, is that he stands at the beginning of what evolved into the socialist movement of today. There were other strands, obviously, but it was that current that most directly broke with bourgeois revolutionism and began the struggle for proletarian revolution. Not without a great degree of confusion, of course. For all his virtues, there's little continuity from Winstanley and his contemporaries. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Redfriars - the Public School of the Socialist Workers Party
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Louis Proyect > I think the thing that works against this "meme" is the character of Tony > Cliff himself, who is about as far > from the Oxbridge snob image you can get. From what I have heard, he was a > coarse, poorly-dressed, Jew > who probably would have gotten a worse treatment at Oxford than Laural and > Hardy. On the other hand, Alex Callinicos is a magnet for this kind of satire. >From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Callinicos "Callinicos is a descendant, through his mother, of the 19th century English historian Lord Acton. During World War II his Greek father was active in the Greek Resistance to Nazi occupation, whilst his mother, the Hon. Ædgyth Bertha Milburg Mary Antonia Frances Lyon-Dalberg-Acton, was the daughter of the 2nd Lord Acton.[1] He was educated at St George's College, Harare.[citation needed] Callinicos himself first became involved in revolutionary politics as a student at Balliol College, Oxford, from which he received his BA and where he knew Christopher Hitchens.[2]" Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] SWP CC caves
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Jim Moody > Caving in to SWP members' pressure, the CC has now called a special > conference for 10 March. Probably a good move on the CC's part. Once they win a majority, they'll feel able to tell the opposition to shut up, and paint them as undemocratic if they don't. Then the opposition will have the choice of capitulating, walking out after not getting their way, or being expelled for violating democratic norms. None of these will solve the crisis, but they will leave the CC in charge. Presumably the CC thinks that the problem will go away if they tough it out. Of course, this is based on them winning a majority, and preferably a large one. This is the critical point. They have the advantage of institutional control, but the opposition could still theoretically out-organise them. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] [UCE] Re: Paul Le Blanc on the SWP crisis
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Nick Fredman > Well they are in discussion with Socialist Alliance. I.e: They're had a > couple of meetings; The other side of things is the informal discussion on blogs, Facebook and so on. (And doubtless in the Real World(tm) as well...) While less important at one level, it has the benefit of being continuous and interactive, as well as involving more people from both groups that in the relatively closed leadership level discussions. My impression of these informal discussion is that they are helping greatly in dealing with the issues of political culture - the way the groups have tended to address matters differently, as well as clarifying misunderstandings. There's also been a positive level of self-criticism involved - both sides are clearly trying to think things through in a serious way. In a sense, the formal discussions are only the tip of the iceberg. Of course, so are the current informal discussion too! Eventually there will have to be serious contact between the entire memberships of the two groups, preferably in the form of constructive joint political activity. That way, they will be able to build mutual trust and understanding - and hopefully even agreement! Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] [UCE] Re: Paul Le Blanc on the SWP crisis
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Louis Proyect > Of course, it would be great if some "Leninist" sect ever got large enough to > elect a parliamentarian who > votes for war credits, as Peter Camejo once related to me with an ear-to-ear > grin. Leaving aside the question of voting for war credits, there have been any number of '"Leninist" sects' that have had parliamentarians elected. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Schoolmarm grammar
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: "Wythe Holt jr." > What is the difference, in pronunciation or meaning, between "shit" and > "shite" (the latter of which is > apparently not in use in the US)? Pronunciation: "wit" versus "white". Meaning" "ass" versus "arse". Sometimes, "ass" can be used as a softer alternative to "arse".A bit like how "wanker" isn't particularly meaningful in the US - see The Simpsons for how a quite impolite term can be repeatedly used on US TV without censors getting all weird about it. Technically, "ass" can also mean "donkey". Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] What kind of party do we need?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Shane Hopkinson > The Greens have about 1 members (up from 1500 a decade ago) That would be TWO decades ago, surely. The Queensland Greens - one of the weaker and more conservative state branches - were bouncing around 1000 members ten years ago. At least two of the members of the Toowoomba branch were the thousandth member of the Queensland Greens Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] on the Lincoln debate - my two cents worth
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: "Graham Milner" > 'Storming of the Fifty Thousand Bastilles', 1789. Peasants seize landed > estates in rural France, after > 'symbolic' taking of the Bastille prison by townspeople in Paris on July > 14th, 1789. Landlords and their > families driven out of estates, or lynched, by revolutionary peasants. Many > dispossessed landlords > assemble outside France to plot counter-revolution. The obvious next question: to what extent was this reversed during the counter-revolutions - Thermidorian, Bonapartist and Royalist? If the answer boils down to "not substantially", then the claim that "the French revolution was not a revolution" makes no damn sense whatsoever. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] on the Lincoln debate - my two cents worth
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Louis Proyect > For example, I found George Comninel's arguments that the French revolution > was not a revolution > pretty convincing The key question in the French revolution was land reform. Did it take place? How did take place? Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Syrian "Rebels" meet in Qatar under US auspices
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Louis Proyect > when the media reports that the tanks they were using in this > offensive were wrested from the Syrian military in various battles. This should be relatively easy to check: are the rebels using old Soviet-made junk, or not? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_of_the_Syrian_Army I doubt the Saudis would be providing them with T-62s and T-55s. Of course, I could be wrong, as such obsolete vehicles are dirt cheap. It's most likely that the rebels are using a mix of captured gear and light weapons which can be easily smuggled. Pretty much like any other rebel force in the last fifty years... Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Ottoman nostalgia
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == > NY Times October 29, 2012 > As if the Ottoman Period Never Ended > By DAN BILEFSKY ... > At least four new films portray the battle of Gallipoli, the bloody > World War I face-off between the Ottomans and Allied forces over the > straits of Dardanelles and one of the greatest victories of modern > Turkey. Sounds entirely positive to me. I'd love to see them. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] For A People's Democracy Vol.1 No. 1
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: John Obrien > 1) The several times unfortunate usage of the word "Jap" Agree. > 2) The defense of J. V. Stalin and using the spurious work > of Grover Furr as the source - is also something I would > challenge as another mistake in this publication. Frankly, every time I see the name Grover Furr, I think of this character: http://muppet.wikia.com/wiki/Grover As a scholar, Grover Furr is a definite Muppet. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Why I am joining Socialist Alternative in Australia
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == John Passant wrote: > I think Jorge's action in joining Socialist Alternative (of which I > am a member) and his reasons for doing so raise important questions > for the left in Australia and I look forward to comradely discussion > and debate on the issue. The truth is that I've been thinking about the same thing for some years. State capitalism theory doesn't bother me, as long as I don't have to defend it in public. The bottom line on Cuba or anywhere else is "hands off", which Socialist Alternative is pretty clear about. I still have reservations about how democratically Socialist Alternative functions. One of the successes of the Socialist Alliance was its move towards a more public style of discussion and debate. It would be a step backwards to lose that, IMHO. Less formally, that translates to: "I've already picked up the habit of shooting my mouth off about stuff, and I don't really want to have to watch what I am saying when there is no good reason to do so". I've been thinking for some time that the ex-DSP current needed to forcefully reassert its Trotskyist roots, in part because of the trolling of some Socialist Alternative members, who like to paint the ex-DSP as "Stalinist". It would be a bit harder to do that to people who wear Trotsky on their sleeve. There has also been the emergence in Australia of a tiny, and kind of crazy, "Two Camp" current over the last year or so. This has made the reassertion of Trotskyism necessary on the part of those who reject this kind of neo-Stalinism. The rebirth of Trotskyism among the ex-DSP is going ahead. That gives us a basis for unity with Socialist Alternative, despite the latter's own deviations from Trotskyist orthodoxy. The real reason why I am not a member of any organisation at the moment is that I am living in a conservative provincial city and I'm not capable of establishing a branch here. I'm just not organiser material, and I can't even set up a campus club because (a) I don't work on campus and (b) I'm creepily old compared to most students, especially the young women who are the natural base of the organisation. Also, of course, I am suffering from middle aged depoliticisation, which is a serious problem if you are isolated from other leftists. At least I know what is happening, so I can fight it... To summarise: good on you Jorge! Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Dark Knight as fascist propaganda
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: John Obrien > And most of the male superheroes had young side kicks until after the > Stonewall Rebellion raised the obvious questions on what these relations > > really were based on. Robin disappeared as did Speedy and all the others. It was noted long before that! In fact, the issue was explicitly raised by Dr Fredric Wertham in his anti-comic rant "Seduction of the Innocent". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seduction_of_the_Innocent Actually, his critique seems to include some valid points, even though the whole thing was part of the great dumbing down of the Cold War period. > The latest revealed is Green Lantern.How should we view the Green > Lantern as part of an intergalatic police force protecting the planets > and inhabitants - is that at least politically neutral, ... Not that Green Lantern, alas, but a newly created one based on the original version of the character from the 1940s. The space cop one was introduced in the late 50s. For what it's worth, the space cop character was heavily influenced by E E 'Doc' Smith's "Lensmen" books - classics of pulp science fiction. The connection and crossover between comics and pulp fiction has been present since day one. Dashiell Hammett wrote a daily comic strip for a while, but had "creative differences" with the publisher. Apparently the publisher wanted a spy strip, while Hammett wanted to write a detective strip. The space cop Green Lanterns weren't entirely "neutral" by the way. The early stories show nasty pattern of siding with human-like aliens against non-human-like ones. Yes, symbolic imperialism in space... Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Dark Knight as fascist propaganda
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Angelus Novus > Under the influence of The Comics Journal and comics auteurs like Pekar, > Crumb, and Spiegelman, I've come to really loath superheroes. Just > about the only one I can still derive any joy from is the original Steve > Ditko Spider-Man, since spidey is basically just a working-class stiff > trying to make ends meet, using his powers out of a sense of > responsibility to the public good rather than any kind of vengeance or > god complex. Steve Ditko is a complete shit. His version of Spider-Man would swing down to abuse anti-(Vietnam) war protesters. Fortunately, Stan Lee would rewrite the dialogue so that Spidey would be shown praising them instead. Ditko's ultimate character: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._A China Mieville is currently writing a series for DC: Dial H. Very, very odd. This is as good a review and explanation as any: http://www.comicsbeat.com/2012/05/03/dial-h-for-hero-china-mieville-gets-weirder-than-usual/ Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] North Star shows the way to imperialist intervention
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Tom Quinn > some huge moral imperative of the kind that existed in World War 2. I presume you mean throwing the British out of India. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Trotskyist attitude to Florian Wilde and wider left polictical recomposition!
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Anthony Brain > What is Wilde's overall politics, does she have any ism ideology? For starters, he's not a she. As for his ideology, Let Me Google That For You: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=florian+wilde His blog is here: http://wildetexte.blogsport.de/ In German, naturally, but automatic translators are pretty good these days. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Whither the Greens?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I wrote: > And sects are reactionary, and should all be liquidated. and > So why don't we get down to building a revolutionary party? Why are we > all still playing around with these fraudulent sects? Of course, there is a simple solution which will never happen. There are two groups on the Australian Left that are noticeably larger than the others. Both are essentially sane. Both have essentially the same program, although one has stripped theirs back a bit. The two groups can't unite. The two groups must unite. One explicitly defends a view that boils down to "there can be only one - and it's us!" The other says, "let's get together and argue about the things that really matter, when they matter". Isn't it obvious? One of these groups must cease to exist. One of these groups must liquidate, and its members should join the other group. In doing so, the group that created would be the largest thing on the Australian Left since the early 70s, thus pushing beyond the "glass ceiling" as it has existed for the last thirty or so years. It would no longer have a substantial competitor, giving it an effective monopoly of recruitment to the socialist movement. It would also be, by far, the most influential current on an intellectual level. Its press would be far, far more widely distributed than that of any other tendency. It would BE the Left. Would it be stable? There would certainly be tensions. Many people would refuse to join the initial fusion. Others would find the new organisation inhospitable. Some members of the surviving group would find the influx of new members, with their different political culture, unsettling. There would be splits. Probably at least two, one from each of the initial groups. If you unite two sects, you get three sects. There would be tensions between the leaderships. The leadership of the continuing group would be in charge, but the leaders of the newcomers would present a potential threat to them. Would they be purged? All up, this would be a recipe for Interesting Times. But, if it could be made to work, it would effectively solve the issue of left fragmentation in Australia, by creating an organisation that dwarfs the rest of the left. So which organisation should dissolve? Which organisation, and thus political lineage, should continue? Which organisation might actually *consider* dissolving? Obviously not the one that still holds to the "there can be only one" perspective. The conclusion is obvious: the Socialist Alliance must liquidate, and its members should join Socialist Alternative. Excuse me while I head for my bomb shelter. ;) Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Whither the Greens?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: "En Passant with John Passant" > Is this "party building" all about what Alan calls mutual jealousy > and competitiveness? I don't think so. It reflects different visions > of socialism, and different organisational approaches reflecting at > least in part those different views and different analyses of the > current period. First of all, the "mutual jealousy and competitiveness" stuff is obviously real. The relationship between Socialist Alternative and Solidarity (the Australian organisations, not the unrelated US ones, for those who tuned in late) precisely exemplifies what I mean. There you have two organisations, with virtually identical "visions of socialism", and there's this quite outrageous nonsense going on between them. Likewise for Socialist Alliance and the Revolutionary Socialist Party. Any group that starts to look like they may achieve a hegemonic status on the Left is going to be rabidly attacked by the other sects. That, pretty much, is what shows that they are sects. And sects are reactionary, and should all be liquidated. The only real "different organisational approaches" at the moment are those of Socialist Alternative and Socialist Alliance. Neither have exactly set the world on fire. Socialist Alternative has managed to pick up some ground at the expense of Socialist Alliance, but it's not clear that it will be able to grow much further. Socialist Alliance, on the other hand, has clearly lost some of its ability to actually do things on the ground, and has arguably moved to the right in some areas. These are the classic problems of "broad" organisations, used to justify the "traditional" grouplet model. That said, my own personal preference is for a minimalist program - basically the Communist Manifesto, plus the absolute minimum of extensions. An organisation built on that basis would look more like the Socialist Alliance than Socialist Alternative. And yes, it would be a revolutionary party, even if it was a bit fuzzy round the edges. > One thing that strikes me as interesting is that many on the left seem > to think organisational responses like unity will address class > consciousness or the lack of it and the lack of class struggle. I don't > think we can just pull ourselves up by our bootlaces. Obviously we can't do that, but we can seek to maximise the effectiveness of the Left's response to the struggles that do occur. That, in turn, will have an effect on future struggles. That's as close as we can get to pulling ourselves up by our bootlaces, but it's worth doing. > I like a question one comrade asked at Marxism 2012 and the answer he > gave. When did Noah build the Ark? Before the storm. So why don't we get down to building a revolutionary party? Why are we all still playing around with these fraudulent sects? Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Wither the Greens? and Broad Marxism Conference
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Gary MacLennan > I agree totally with Lou and that is why I would say to Alan, that SAlt > cannot succeed. They can never win because theirs is a failed model. How > many more years of "party-building" do we need to endure before we > finally walk away from it? The thing is that mutual jealousy and competitiveness between the various grouplets is a key element in the "party-building" model. There's always something separating "us" from "them". If we eliminate, or substantially reduce, that element, a lot of the rationalisation for separatism falls apart. We should also note the subtext in this particular situation, where Socialist Alternative is stealing the thunder of the old DSP. The "old" way of doing things would be for the mainly ex-DSP led Socialist Alliance to redouble its efforts to recapture the (de facto) leadership of the Left. The proper way to do it is to sincerely and honestly applaud SAlt's successes, and ask "can we help?" That's what I'm trying to get at. We should seek to genuinely cooperate with SAlt, rather than compete with them. That will torpedo the sect building methodology more than anything else available to us. > Now this from *The Australian* today: > > "The Greens have declared they will fight any attempt by the government > to use cuts to the public service, family benefits or research and > development funding to return the budget to surplus". > > That's not too bad for a basis to work with, no? Certainly. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Wither the Greens? and Broad Marxism Conference
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Nick Fredman > If SAlt are interested in building a mass socialist party rather than > merely Brand SAlt it's something they'll need to address, including > talking to people with runs on the board in the area. This is the crux of the matter. SAlt ARE more interested in building Brand SAlt at the moment. That's why their Conference was how it was, and why it couldn't possibly have been how Sue suggested. That doesn't mean that Sue's suggestion wasn't right in general - it just didn't make sense in terms of SAlt's goals for their conference. We need to understand SAlt in their own terms. They (still) adhere to the gouplet model that the old DSP took literally decades to transcend. They are having success with it. In some ways they are most successful group on the Australian left at the moment, and, incidentally, outperforming the Socialist Alliance in those respects. To their eyes, their model, their politics, works. We can't expect them to just walk away from this. We probably shouldn't even bother to ask them to. It's not going to happen. The question is how should we align with them, not with how we should persuade them to line up with us. They are, as it happens, largely going in the direction we want to go too. More so, in fact, than the Greens, who are wandering off into bourgeois politics land (with some important exceptions). SAlt actually is interested in forming a mass socialist party. It's just one under their political leadership and reflecting their political positions. That ain't going to happen. But it would be interesting to watch them engage in concrete steps to establish one, wouldn't it? That's why I think we should basically step back and say: Go for it! We'll support you! If they win, we win. If they lose, well, at least they, and we, tried. SAlt are not opponents. They are allies. For better or worse that means we have to treat them with caution and respect. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Whither the Greens?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I wrote: > It's particularly noticeable here in Toowoomba in the case of the > University of Southern Queensland, which is the biggest single employer, > and heavily reliant on overseas students. A high Australian dollar makes > it more expensive for overseas students to study here, and thus it's less > likely that they will chose to do so. A PS: How marvellously commodified education has become! It's another thing to sell, just like coal or wool! Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Wither the Greens? and Broad Marxism Conference
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: "En Passant with John Passant" > As to the suggestion by someone else to turn Marxism 2012 (a joint > conference this year between Socialist Alternative in Australia and the > Internartional Socialist Organisation in NZ) into a broad left conference > I think this misunderstands the nature of the Conference and what > Socialist Alternative is about. This suggestion wasn't one I would have made. "I just wrote the following on Greenleft_discussion: SAlt are entitled to organise whatever they want on whatever basis they want. It's not useful to complain that it's not how "we" (for whatever value of "we") would have done things. A jointly organised open conference would be a good idea. Why not propose one?" I then added in a follow-up post: "Oh, and (comrade with dissenting views) should be free to argue his views there too. This is completely unproblematic as long as it is clear that he isn't arguing The SA Position, and thus providing strawman ammunition to everyone who wants to call SA "Stalinists!" This applies to every other SA member too. In a talkshop, party discipline shouldn't apply." The last sentence isn't entirely correct - formal positions need to be presented correctly and faithfully to their meaning - but otherwise comrades should be able to say "this is what I think", without repercussions apart from having everyone who disagrees jumping in to say so. Which, incidentally, brings me to the question of "internal" versus "public" discussion within organisations. It's occurred to me that in the Internet Age this difference is essentially meaningless. Unless comrades are going cut themselves off from the rest of the world, they will be arguing their views in public anyway. Frankly, if they haven't won their organisation to their views before the start of formal pre-conference discussion periods, they've already lost the argument. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Whither the Greens?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Gary MacLennan > On a related matter I think Alan needs to take into account the > weaknesses of a resource based economy such as Australia's. It squeezes > out other sectors - manufacturing, education, tourism etc by monopolising > investment and driving up the currency. I think if I am not mistaken, > that is called the "Dutch Disease". Of course this is a real problem. It's particularly noticeable here in Toowoomba in the case of the University of Southern Queensland, which is the biggest single employer, and heavily reliant on overseas students. A high Australian dollar makes it more expensive for overseas students to study here, and thus it's less likely that they will chose to do so. Having said that, it's precisely the resource based nature of the economy which is currently protecting the Australian working class from the full impact of the global crisis. We're in nothing like the kind of shit Europe, and even the US, is in. That, I think, has a lot to do with the fact that we haven't yet seen a reflection of the global radicalisation here - things aren't yet that bad. And of course, politically, we want to see such a thing - but the economic and social price is horrifying, so we should be careful what we wish for. It's eventually going to happen anyway, of course. We need to be as ready for it as we can. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] W(h)ither the Greens?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Gary MacLennan > I have been a little surprised by what I take to be Alan's dismissal of > a possible link up by the Far Left with the Greens. My viewpoint is coloured by my being in Queensland. The fuss over BDS showed that there was more of a left in the Greens in Sydney than there is here. Even more so, there is an interesting Green left in South Australia. These are definitely people the Left should be talking to. But overall, I don't see a huge amount of hope in the Greens, even if they go so far to the right as to destroy themselves. All that said, the actual interactions of the Left and activist members of the Greens are very important. The Greens do support many of the issues that the Left also supports, and deserve support when they do so. To do otherwise is for the Left to turn its back on its own program. Similarly, when the Greens pull reactionary crap, they need to be opposed. That interaction is the kind of "alliance" the Left should have with the Greens. It's not a formal agreement, and the Greens won't recognise that it exists, but that's how it will work. It's actually a lot less interesting than the SA sometimes makes it seem. > Christine Milne the new leader has identified the rapaciousness of the > mining sector as her main target. She is going to build a new voting base > apparently on the rural sector and on 'progressive' businesses. I wish > her luck. However it should be pointed out that what she is really doing > is > appealing to a different sector of capital from the resources sector. My feeling here is that she is engaging in wishful thinking here. The Greens are absolutely correct to try to engage with small landholders who are faced with mining company rapacity, and doubly so when coal seam gas and fracking are involved. That said, I haven't seen much evidence that this is winning the Greens votes. Naturally, when they start talking to farmers, two things happen: 1. The LNP, and particularly the former National parts of it, get snotty about people trying to win over "their" voters, and do their best to block Green involvement in the movements. 2. Right wing demagogues come out of the woodwork too. Every kind of wingnut has been hanging around the CSG movement. And, through Katter's party, they've been winning votes, when the Greens have largely failed. To put it simply, I don't think that the Greens are going to succeed in gaining much of a rural base. Their base will remain in the inner city where it as always been. There's another problem with opposing mining too: mining is propping up the living standards of the Australian working class. It provides a steady demand for skilled workers in particular, and less skilled ones to a degree too, which tends to push up wages in other sectors as well. If metal tradesmen, for example, can make hundreds of thousands in mining, why would they settle for less in other industries? Opposing mining cuts across the short term interests of workers. Workers understand this. Obviously "opposing mining" is a meaningless term. I'm specifically referring to the expansion of coal mining and the production of coal seam gas. These are hideously environmentally destructive processes, and are the main culprits in the social and economic dislocation currently happening in the bush. It is utterly correct for the Greens to oppose these projects - but in doing so they are at risk of being perceived as opposing the rights of workers to make a decent living. The Greens can't just weasel it by talking about alternative jobs, training and so on. They can't deliver on this. Nor, even if they could, they would not be able to deliver such well paid jobs, and maintain the upward pressure on pay and conditions in other industries. There's also the issue of the Carbon Tax. This is a big loser for the Greens. It is unlikely to have much of an effect on emissions, while it is quite likely to have an effect in alienating potential Green voters. It's pretty much the kiss of death for Green aspirations to win a rural base, for starters. Doubtless the Greens will find some gradual way out of these traps, but they have a hard road ahead of them. And, incidentally, the Left is going to have to deal with some of these problems too. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Queensland Election Debacle - was Re: Callinicos on Galloway victory
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Gary MacLennan > I had been contemplating writing to you to seek your opinion on the > recent State election debacle & hey presto your post turns up. Jonathan Strauss posted a very interesting analysis on the Greenleft_discussion group: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GreenLeft_discussion/message/77211 It's far more detailed than anything I could produce. I will, however, make a few comments later in this post. > I really don't want to think that the only alternative on the Left is > a rapprochement between SALT and the SA, but of course you may be > right, but I pray not. When I think of Tom Bramble, the Brisbane SALT > leader I always say to myself "There but for the grace of God, goes > God". Can you imagine him with power? A terrifying prospect. Bramble aside, SAlt has some very interesting figures. For example, I follow John Passant's blog semi-regularly. Most of it is very very good. Some of it is very grouplet oriented, and rather frustrating in that sense. More importantly, SAlt is just such a big factor on the Left that they can't be ignored. They have a genuine impact on the intellectual life of the Left, and their organisational base on the major campuses is very solid. They are helping shape the Left of the future. "Beating" them entails engaging in yet more of the same old sectarian competition that the SA tries to avoid. That leaves "joining" them - engaging them as allies and co-fighters in the struggle. > In any case the rapprochement the SA is seeking is towards the Greens > and not towards the International Socialist tendency - is It not? Yes, but I've been a member of the Greens, and know damn well that the Greens want nothing to do with the Left. > That does not appear to be a very fruitful strategy I know, nevertheless > as > the current leadership of the Greens ages and gives way, an opening > might appear for younger and more radical elements to emerge among the > Greens. I'd be very surprised if that happened in Queensland. Maybe in other states. > There is also the question of the reconstitution of the ALP. The unions > may try again. ... and so I suspect that we are in for a protracted > period of revenge being exacted on the ALP. The ALP will recover eventually, despite the long term trends in terms of union and party membership. There is a serious risk that the Greens might also face that "period of revenge". Things like the Carbon Tax draw reactionary demogoguery like shit draws flies. This could tend to cap the Green vote in many areas, and the Greens are very self-consciously an electoralist party. Even Drew Hutton's coal seam gas activism is technically occurring outside the framework of the Greens, despite having the whole Greens organisation at his back. A peaking, and even decline, in the Greens vote is possible. I'm not sure what the ramifications of that would be. Comradely, Alan Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Glenn Beck Fascinated with Revolutionary Marxism Course at PSU
==
Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message.
==
From: Mark Lause
> Btw, I'm offering a seminar in the fall on Marx and the Marxist traditon.
In a totally non-academic way, I'm considering restarting my local Marxist
reading group. This time, it's the actual academics, not their pet
post-graduate students, who will be forming the core of the group. I've got
artists as well.
The latter have convinced me of the structure: 3 and a half weekly sessions of
me ranting about the Communist Manifesto, with the last session ending with a
couple of hours of people wanking on about their particular hobby horses
("discussing what the next session should be about"), followed by adjournment
to the pub.
Post-modernism and suchlike is already pretty dead here, but I would still
enjoy staking the corpse. I suspect that getting people to relax and admit that
(outside the area of aesthetics) it's all tedious horseshit is the best way to
get the message out.
Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu
Set your options at:
http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Tuareg rebels declare independent state
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == More imperialist opposition to Tuareg rebels: >From http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-17642276 "Ecowas is preparing a force of up to 3,000 sodiers which could be deployed to stop the rebel advance. France's Defence Minister, Gerard Longuet, said France could provide assistance to the force, including transport, Reuters news agency reports." Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Tuareg rebels declare independent state
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: DW > And what Imperialists oppose this? The EU and France? >From >http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-04-06/malis-taureg-rebels-declare-independence/3937270 "The African Union, the EU and France all immediately rejected the independence claim." > A "Tuareg Republic" is going to be neither Tuareg nor a republic but a > postage stamp and borders enforced by...Imperialism because that is > the only way it can exist under the current state of affairs. The obvious response to this is that the fighters who have established the current state weren't imperialist troops. Presumably they will be the ones enforcing the borders. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Renato P. on soccer
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == > What is unique to soccer is the absolute preponderance of the foot. On > another hand, soccer developed itself during the Industrial Revolution > in England. ... So soccer triumphed in Europe and South America, and > basketball and baseball in North America. > > Well, I could extend myself, if there is someone interested. This theory > is well accepted among a small circle of intellectuals and academics in > Brazil. What do you think? Off the top of my head: nonsense. First of all, "the kicking game" was not the only historical variety of football. Yes, it was dominant in at least the south of England, but other forms dominated in other parts of Britain. This is why games like Rugby and Australian Rules exist. Rugby, of course, is a major international game in its own right, while Australian Rules is essentially a regional game even in Australia. It is worth studying though, because it was one of the earliest codified varieties of "football". Essentially, it's rules are a compromise between the varieties of football played in England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland, with perhaps a little indigenous Australian influence thrown in. (The latter is uncertain, but possible.) My point is that "the absolute preponderance of the foot" was not an intrinsic feature of historical football. There's another game which needs to be considered too - one extremely popular in places like India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, the West Indies, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Australia, New Zealand, and, yes, England. I'm talking about cricket, of course. Cricket shares a common ancestor with baseball, and is a far more popular game on a world scale. It would need to be included in your theory for it to be valid. In other words, have another drink. ;) Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Revolutionist - Atlantic Mobile
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Red Arnie > Let us be frank that the idea of the "withering away of the state" is > an outdated pipedream from a bygone time way before nuclear technology, > germ theory and vaccines, DNA modified plants and animals, etc. - all > calling for global socialist regulation. So the state is eternal? All hail the state! No thanks. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Jodi Dean to Speak at the James Connolly Forum in Troy
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: "Politicus E." > It's all about specific social relations. Many Facebook friends are > political contacts; This is true. Louis and other ex-SWP members might like to wonder how things would have been if Facebook had been around back in the 60s/70s. These days, it's quite normal for members of left grouplets to be FB friends with members of their organisation in other branches, ex-members (including ones who were expelled), and members of other grouplets. That is, engage in daily interaction and communication with them, on both political and social levels. How does that compare with life in the old SWP? > Many Facebook friends are not US residents; Facebook, therefore, is > helpful to keep informed of the course of their lives, since we see > each other infrequently. Absolutely. Anything that makes it easier to keep in touch with people in other countries, or on the other side of the same country, is a good thing. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Rick Perry's "part-time" Congress Idea
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Mark Lause > The experience of trying to govern with part-time, officials with > less salary invariably meant a government dominated entirely and > directly by the independently wealthy or essentially entrepreneurs > concerned directly in funneling public money to themselves and their > friends for one thing or another. Here's one version of how it worked: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_Ministry "The Ministerialists, many of whom were businessmen for whom their parliamentary career was not their primary concern, were primarily conservative in character. They supported the development of the colony's sugar cane, beef cattle, mining and wool industries that were to remain the backbone of Queensland's economy for a century." Naturally, "development" means: "Between 1863 and 1891, a total of 46,387 South Pacific Islanders were brought to work in Queensland where the sugar industry was undergoing a massive expansion. In 1871 there had been 9581 acres of land under cane; by 1898 that figure was 111,012 acres. The islanders were 'contracted' for a period of three years. For working ten hours a day they were paid the meagre wage of 6 pounds per year; equal to 4 pence per day. At least the lucky ones were, some were paid nothing at all. "I maintain that it was a form of slavery. It is true that some people in the later years signed a contract to work for three years. But my father didn't, neither did his brother and neither did their sister. They were paid nothing whatsoever." Faith Bandler, interviewed by Paul Kelly for television series '100 Years: The Australian Story'" http://www.abc.net.au/federation/fedstory/ep2/ep2_people.htm I can see why Rick Perry would like a system like this. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Bloomberg's ridiculous statement on the raid
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == With sincere apologies to Rosa Luxemburg: “Sanitation prevails in New York!” You foolish lackeys! Your “sanitation” is built on shit. Tomorrow OWS will “rise up again, clashing its weapons,” and to your horror it will proclaim with trumpets blazing: I was, I am, I shall be! Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Who's Behind the Mayhem at the Occupy Oakland Protests?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Matthew Russo > While this obviously important issue deserves a full-length treatment > that no one can pretend to give here, the reactions to Binh's little > foray, coming from what appear to be an ISO direction, It would help to cite which reactions you are referring to. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Interesting exchange between ex-SWP'er (USA) and Binh
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Adam Proctor > Indeed, Binh seems to be responding to a straw man conception of--at > least--the ISO's participation in Occupy movements. This "showing up > and selling papers" idea has provided many a critic with snazzy catch > phrases and polemical ammo, but it rarely, if ever, appropriately > characterizes modern leftist orgs and their activities in contemporary > movements... There are, of course, abstentionist groups that it accurately portrays, but they are rarely the real targets of it. Instead, it tends to be aimed at the groups who actually are trying to positively participate in the movement. To put it simply, it's a variation on red-baiting. Louis Proyect wrote: > I think, however, that Binh is not just looking for left groups to > assist the occupation movement. It is much more of a question of > fusing with a broad anti-capitalist movement--something of course > that the ISO is not prepared to do. This is one of these vague statements that never gets concretised. What does it mean? Does it apply to anarchists as well? What about supporters of the Democrats? What should happen if the movement fades away - when there isn't a broad anti-capitalist movement to fuse with? Finally, from Binh: > Binh: The difficulty is that the existing socialist organizations > are acting like this is just another movement ... > This is not just another movement. This is an uprising. This is the > 60s, the 30s, the 1890s, not a replay of the run-up to the Iraq war > or a slightly bigger repeat of the anti-globalization movement. It would be nice if this was true. Certainly the global nature of the turmoil tends to suggest this. The world is rotten ripe for revolution. But to suggest the still hardly huge Occupy movement is something other than a historical prelude is premature. (Oakland aside.) Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Yiddishkeit
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Erik Toren > Maybe then Will Eisner? Eisner is a good guess. Apparently his use of the term was independent from an earlier occurrence. Arguably, it's modern usage follows on from his use of it. On the other hand, similar material had already been published, even without counting "underground" work like that of Crumb and Pekar. If you really want to nitpick, though, "picture novels" were around far, far earlier. Reading the wikipedia entry on graphic novels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphic_novel#1920s_to_1960s ) has made me really really want to read "It Rhymes With Lust" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Rhymes_with_Lust ). Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Qantas and left media (was Re: Occupy Brisbane)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == On the topic of GLW: a lot of material that would once have gone in GLW now goes onto the Links website - www.links.org.au This probably includes 90% of the material I would have previously read GLW for. The discussions there are often quite robust. Some turn into multi-tendency free for alls, with even ex-DSP Socialist Alliance members lining up on different sides. To some extent, GLW has had its thunder stolen, and has been pushed into a niche of carrying more entry level stuff. In that case it's hardly likely that its analysis might tend to be a little superficial. More importantly, though, it also is the vehicle for most of the Australian oriented material - and that is the most important of all for a publication which is basically directed to the Australian left. Weaknesses there are weaknesses in its core function. Looking at the current issue (http://www.greenleft.org.au/ ), I'm not so sure it's all that bad. It obviously can't replace the bourgeois media as a primary source of information, though. The division of material between GLW and Links probably results in the material in the latter having less public prominence than that in the former, simply because of the differences in the number of hits received by the sites. Then again, the material in Links is still available to those who want it, and there is actually some degree of difference in the length and analytic depth of the material. Or, at least, when there isn't, the material is relatively obscure from an Australian oriented viewpoint. So I think Rose is taking a very one-sided approach to what is happening with GLW and its associated entities. The truth is that the way in which left media needs to operate is changing. Print-only papers are things of the past, and even papers with web versions aren't really adequate either. Nor are mailing lists like greenleft_discussion the state of the art any more. I have no idea what the ideal form of left media presence would be at the moment. No doubt it wouldn't be the way GLW etc exists at the moment. But the truth is that "GLW etc" is continuously evolving. The content is there too, usually, even if it's not where you would have gone to find it a decade ago. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Qantas and left media (was Re: Occupy Brisbane)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == This is why Gary and I keep getting into fights, despite our best intentions... Me: > For what it's worth, I joked the other day that Occupy Brisbane would > end up in Musgrave Park. I guess I was right. From: Gary MacLennan > What are you saying here? Ending up in Musgrove park is material for > a joke? It is a place of great. Cultural and spiritual significance > for Aboriginal people, as you well know. Of course I know that. The point is that it's over the river and out of sight. Occupy Brisbane has been driven out of the city into the suburbs to wither away where nobody can see them. This is what is "material for a joke". Occupy Brisbane is dead. Of course I draw no satisfaction from this. I'm laughing through bitterness. Comradely, Alan Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Qantas and left media (was Re: Occupy Brisbane)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Nick Fredman > You make me sad, Alan. Just the other day my boss called me a > "young researcher". That probably speaks more to the dreadful age > profile of academia though. Heh. I'm older than you. ;) If it wasn't obvious, I was actually attempting to direct my barbs against Ed and Rose. > But I'd like to be clear to get my annoyed responses to Ed and Rose in > perspective. ... I think an objective analysis then shows who is and > isn't showing sectarian bitterness here. The truth is that Ed and Rose are outliers here, unrepresentative of Greens as a whole. Their approach has more in common with classic left sectarianism. It suggests that while they've moved on organisationally, they haven't moved on politically. That said, they are making some valid points with respect to the importance of the Occupy movement versus the other struggles that are happening. Occupy (in Australia) is very, very small. The marches are, from the reports given, quite inconsequential - typically hundreds rather thousands - background noise in cities of a million or more. The biggest seem to have been about a thousand or so. That doesn't mean it isn't important, of course. Nobody is saying that. For what it's worth, I joked the other day that Occupy Brisbane would end up in Musgrave Park. I guess I was right. The 160 strong GLW dinner is another rather "ho hum" figure, indicative of stagnation rather than success. I don't think any of this will be resolved short of a massive radicalisation of (at least) young people in Australia. Such a radicalisation seems to be at least notionally possible, given the interesting turmoil in the US. On the other hand, the relatively favourable state of the Australian economy is a dampening factor. What organisational forms would such a radicalisation throw up? We can't really be sure. Certainly all of the existing groups would grow to some extent, and to some degree in proportion to their existing strength. (Yes, that would include the ALP, as well as the Greens.) There would be reconfigurations as well, though, and they would be the most important phenomena. It is my belief that the Socialist Alliance would be actively involved in such processes, and that their role in them would be largely positive. Of course, their role would be controversial, and there would be plenty of Roses and Eds ready to denounce them for all kinds of real and imaginary sins. But they would still be there, and that's where Marxists should be. Questions of the quality of their comrades, and their press would be more important then. Green Left Weekly, at least, would doubtless become more interesting and vibrant in the context of a more interesting and vibrant movement. Without such a context we are all basically just going through the motions, and in some cases that involves pointless sniping at each other. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Qantas and left media (was Re: Occupy Brisbane)
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Nick Fredman > Ed you used the fact that GLW hadn't covered an event to your > preferred timetable as an excuse to once again declare it useless > for everyone and everything. Except for "sect-building", which is > useless in the eyes of grown-up and clever leftists, and who else > counts? Your specific complaint and general attitude seems to go > beyond the arrogant sneering into the solipsistic. The sad part was that it was less than a week ago that I defended the Australian left against the claim of them being a bunch of laughable sectarian wankers. I obviously need to rework that claim. On the other hand, it's usually the old farts that engage in this particular sport, or poison the minds of the young to render them vulnerable to it. Maybe I should write a book: Sectarianism: A Senile Disorder. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Occupy Brisbane
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Gary MacLennan > I sincerely don't want to get into any kind of spat with Comrade > Bradley, especially since his post is a thoughtful one that very > much deserve a thoughtful response. I'll try and behave too. :) Gary writes > Yet in the mean time the great achievement of Occupy brisbane is that it > connects us to the world wide occupy movement. Yes, and this is the basic aspect that we mustn't lose sight of. > Here in Oz both Sydney and Melbourne have been taken out by the state > and they do not appear to be on the way back any time soon. Occupy Melbourne is showing some signs of life again: --- Occupy Melbourne takes to the streets again Sunday, October 30, 2011 By Aron Micallef, Melbourne Despite the police brutality faced by Occupy Melbourne protesters just over a week before during their eviction from City Square, Occupy Melbourne returned to the streets on October 29. http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/49286 --- Gary: > Well I feel strongly that you are wrong here. Very wrong. If you would > actually try to come to grips with the phenomenon of anti-socialism > among young anti-system protesters you would realise that there has > been a negative pay load attached to all those years of Leninist party > building, when the sects churned through hundreds (thousands?) of young > idealists and spat them out. This is our most substantial point of disagreement, of course. Gary: > The idea that what is left of the Left would ever be blind to any one's > faults is more than somewhat amusing. Negativity, criticism, sectarianism > > and cant are what we do. Yes and no. In my experience, the level of bile is usually lower than you seem to think. Quite frankly, part of this is due to the demise of the old CPA, sections of which seem to have been particularly nasty in these respects. Most of what I've seen is more frustration than anything else, although the old DSP could exhibit a level of unconscious arrogance that no doubt got people's backs up. More recently, there have been conscious efforts on various people's parts to try and educate comrades to see the positive sides of other currents. This has not been entirely unsuccessful. In general I would say that it's been literally decades since the Australian Left was anywhere near the snakepit that the British Left, for instance, often appears to be. Part of that, of course, is that the worst sectarians were largely marginalised after the demise of the CPA and the retreat of the ALP Left. Socialist Alternative are fluffy bunnies in comparison, and appropriate targets for what I suppose could be called a charm offensive - a sustained attempt to develop more constructive and collaborative relations between them and everybody else. Of course, individual personalities will make this difficult in some cases, to put it politely. Gary: > What would be a non-symbolic exercise I wonder? In the present climate > with the Left too weak to even be in disarray, Occupy Brisbane is at > least there. Marginal and a bit crazy- yes, but still there. True. The QANTAS dispute is an example of how things could potentially develop into something more interesting. It won't of course, but it's the potential that's interesting. Just think of what the Occupy movement would look like if it had coincided with the MUA dispute... Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Occupy Brisbane
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == I haven't had the opportunity to visit Occupy Brisbane - I haven't even been to Brisbane for three years, even though it's only two hours travel away - but I have my suspicions about what could be shaping it. Basically, it's completely socially marginal. For most people in Queensland, it simply doesn't exist. For most of those who are aware of its existence, it's something a small group of other people are doing, and most of those 'other people' aren't much like them. As a result, its composition is accidental. There are no reality checks or any other sort of quality control on their actions or ideas. Attributing any particular importance to the past actions of the left is probably unwarranted, except of course for the overall fact that the left doesn't really exist. Basically, we need to base our approach to Occupy Brisbane, and the Occupy movement in general, on the basis of solidarity - but we shouldn't be blind to its faults. Occupy Brisbane is, when you get down to it, a symbolic exercise at best. At worst, it's an exercise in clowning. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] The Australian: OWS spreads to Australia
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Andren Sath > I suspect that the 'people's microphone' thing is a deliberate emulation > of the practice in the NYC occupation, where the cops forbade the use of > amplification. Definitely. There's no actual need for the practice here - it's just something that has been copied along with the rest of the format. No doubt it will be made into a Anarchist fetish for years to come. The Australian left in general are big on imitation, and less on innovation. Technically, the "Occupy X" format is a prime example, since the social conditions that are propelling it in the US don't really exist here in the same way. It's therefore not a particularly good fit to what is needed here. Except for the obvious aspect - that of solidarity with the movement in the US. That overrides any other qualms. Of course, its interesting that it took a movement in the US to spark imitation here in Oz. Things that happen in Europe or the Arab world don't have the same impact. Still - an extended radicalisation in the US would be a Wonderful Thing for us here. Maybe it would allow us to find our own ways to do things, and to politically learn to "speak Australian" - that is, to address the pressing needs of the moment and to build and help lead the movements we need here. And the Party we need here. Alan B Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] WA Socialist Alliance leaders continue to target dissident member
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Shane Hopkinson > My point Graham as you are well aware is that the SA/DSP expelled a > third of its members About a fifth, actually. Heads had been counted carefully in the run up to the previous DSP congress. > (the irony of splitting over a Alliance seemed to be lost on them). No irony. Sect builders see "alliances" as liquidationism and heresy. > my hunch is that its just the stalking horse to get rid of you because > of some other percieved political difference. Judging from the posted material, there's clearly a history of friction, with this being a "last straw". > Its why many of us here regard sect-building of this kind as a waste > of time. Personally, I'm counting heads with a view to restarting my local reading group. My ideal "sect" contains all the Marxists living in Toowoomba. But of course that's an 'alliance', and is thus liquidationism. Cheers, Alan B Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
[Marxism] Attempt to criminalise BDS campaign in Australia
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Israeli boycotts: ACCC called in * EXCLUSIVE: John Ferguson * From: The Australian * August 08, 2011 12:00AM ANTI-Israel activists face investigation for alleged secondary boycotts under landmark attempts by the Baillieu government to curb the global campaign to target companies and businesses linked to the Jewish nation. The Australian Competition & Consumer Commission has been asked to investigate anti-Israeli campaigners who have joined the global Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions group to determine if they should be prosecuted for threatening stores with Israeli ownership or connections. rest at: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/israeli-boycotts-accc-called-in/story-fn59niix-1226110465124 The list of groups mentioned is interesting: "Victorian Consumer Affairs Minister Michael O'Brien said the protesters had deliberately pinpointed businesses with Israeli ownership and who they believed traded with the Israeli government. Mr O'Brien singled out the Maritime Union Of Australia, Geelong Trades Hall Council, the Green Left Weekly magazine, Australians for Palestine and the Palestine Solidarity Campaign." Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Chavs: The Demonization of the Working Class
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The main impression this stuff gives me is that Jones regards the working class as "other", that is, not including him. I wonder what class he regards himself as being a member of? And, as such, why should anybody care about his opinion? Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Gil Scott heron, RIP
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == The revolution will not give your mouth sex appeal. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGaRtqrlGy8 http://www.gilscottheron.com/lyrevol.html Obviously the anti-feminist line is a major flaw in an otherwise awesome song/poem. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Bob Gould dead
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == Another obit, for those on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/notes/john-percy/bob-gould-passes-away/10150183269743779 Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Trapped
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Gary MacLennan > Sitting where I cannot avoid coverage of the Royal Wedding. now I > understand what Sartre meant by "l'enfer c'est les autres". Turn off the fuckin' TV, Gary. Pull it out of the wall. Disconnect it from the aerial. Stick earplugs in. Read a book. I had to deal with Easterfest over the weekend. At least it gave me an opportunity to laugh at my bosses. (http://www.easterfest.com/ ) Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Dialectics
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: "S. Artesian" > Hat's off to anyone who thinks the Science of Logic is easy. I studied it in an "applied" rather than "pure" form. Abstract logic makes me go cross-eyed. FWIW, when I wrote "dropped out of Medicine", I meant "dropped out of Medical school", of course. I dropped out of Computer Programming a decade *after* graduating. I wish I'd studied something useful, that taught me how to write essays. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Dialectics
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: "Thomas Bias" > When I explain dialectics I use two examples that I think are easy for > people to see: I generally use biological examples: birth, growth, aging, death. Or, of course, the bar I'm sitting at. It wasn't always a bar, and won't always be... Personally, I found understanding dialectics quite easy. I dropped out of Medicine many years ago, so I have a strong biological background, and then studied Computer Science, giving me a background in formal logic. I was also a recreational history geek. Putting them all together was easy. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Is this as good as it gets?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Mark Lause > An underlying issue here seems to be an unspoken assumption that > imperialist intervention would actually give them free reign to do what > they will in Libya. That is entirely unclear, and fatalistic. We have no > reason to believe that the people of Libya or the region will accept the > mere replacement of the regime or the partition of the country or other > solutions that fall short of what they want Unfortunately, experience tends to support pessimism here. Clearly, the forces of reaction are making a concerted attempt to bring an end to the revolutionary wave (Libya, Bahrain, Yemen and so on). It's far from clear that the revolution can survive this. In some cases (Bahrain comes to mind), it's pretty clear that it will be defeated. Meanwhile, the revolution in Libya has been hijacked by reactionary bourgeois figures. Removing Gadaffi will merely open a struggle against them (and their imperialist sponsors.) This brings us back to classic Marxist postulates about the need to deepen the revolution. What are the chances of that? I haven't a clue, but I'm prepared to guess that they are pretty slim. I won't say zero, though. First of all, there is still a struggle going on in Egypt. The spread of the revolution may be being halted, but it's still being fought in Egypt. If the Egyptian revolution deepens, there will be a demonstration effect in Libya, which could help tip the balance. Second, the Tripoli masses haven't really yet become involved. The Gadaffi-ist forces have been repressing them. The imperialists have started bombing them. The bourgeois rebels will, without a doubt, take up where they left off. It's most probable that they (the workers and so on of Tripoli) will be demoralised, and just seek to get on with their lives, but that may not be the case. They've clearly been wanting to raise their voices, but haven't been able to. They may not be prepared to remain silent. And Tripoli, of course, contains a third of the population. Quite likely, a majority of the working class. Of course, all of this is assuming there isn't a direct imperialist occupation. Even a rather short lived one, involving relatively small forces, could change the situation radically. Basically, this whole situation is so classically "Marxist" that it's rather odd people are having trouble with it. Or maybe it isn't, but that just leads back to the ridiculous cycle of name calling. It's still a damn shame that some of the world's most prominent socialists have proven themselves suspicious of, if not hostile to, the revolutions in the Arab world. Arab Marxists, as has been pointed out, have been much less so, which might be more important. However, it doesn't help that "we" (that is, those who are assumed to speak for "us") aren't unequivocally on the side of the revolution. What would Marx have said? I don't know - it would probably have been in German. Or possibly Latin or ancient Greek. And Not Safe For Work. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Is this as good as it gets?
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: Mark Lause > An underlying issue here seems to be an unspoken assumption that > imperialist intervention would actually give them free reign to do what > they will in Libya. That is entirely unclear, and fatalistic. We have no > reason to believe that the people of Libya or the region will accept the > mere replacement of the regime or the partition of the country or other > solutions that fall short of what they want Unfortunately, experience tends to support pessimism here. Clearly, the forces of reaction are making a concerted attempt to bring an end to the revolutionary wave (Libya, Bahrain, Yemen and so on). It's far from clear that the revolution can survive this. In some cases (Bahrain comes to mind), it's pretty clear that it will be defeated. Meanwhile, the revolution in Libya has been hijacked by reactionary bourgeois figures. Removing Gadaffi will merely open a struggle against them (and their imperialist sponsors.) This brings us back to classic Marxist postulates about the need to deepen the revolution. What are the chances of that? I haven't a clue, but I'm prepared to guess that they are pretty slim. I won't say zero, though. First of all, there is still a struggle going on in Egypt. The spread of the revolution may be being halted, but it's still being fought in Egypt. If the Egyptian revolution deepens, there will be a demonstration effect in Libya, which could help tip the balance. Second, the Tripoli masses haven't really yet become involved. The Gadaffi-ist forces have been repressing them. The imperialists have started bombing them. The bourgeois rebels will, without a doubt, take up where they left off. It's most probable that they (the workers and so on of Tripoli) will be demoralised, and just seek to get on with their lives, but that may not be the case. They've clearly been wanting to raise their voices, but haven't been able to. They may not be prepared to remain silent. And Tripoli, of course, contains a third of the population. Quite likely, a majority of the working class. Of course, all of this is assuming there isn't a direct imperialist occupation. Even a rather short lived one, involving relatively small forces, could change the situation radically. Basically, this whole situation is so classically "Marxist" that it's rather odd people are having trouble with it. Or maybe it isn't, but that just leads back to the ridiculous cycle of name calling. It's still a damn shame that some of the world's most prominent socialists have proven themselves suspicious of, if not hostile to, the revolutions in the Arab world. Arab Marxists, as has been pointed out, have been much less so, which might be more important. However, it doesn't help that "we" (that is, those who are assumed to speak for "us") aren't unequivocally on the side of the revolution. What would Marx have said? I don't know - it would probably have been in German. Or possibly Latin or ancient Greek. And Not Safe For Work. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Libya: a tale of two headlines 8th March 2011
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: MARGARET WYLES > And the Brit embedded with the rebels? That's normal foreign correspondent stuff. There are BBC journalists "embedded" in Tripoli too. In any case, most of the reporting is the "sources say" type, which is exactly what you would expect. My dodgy old computer won't let me watch the video, so I can't comment on that. > Easy enough to pick apart my argument (which I still stand by because > I find it odd that they would list the number of pickups and > because I have never heard pickup used in speaking about military > operations) An argument from ignorance. Very good. In other contexts they are referred to as "technicals". Have you heard of that term? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_(vehicle) > and miss the overall ridiculousness of this article and video. It's bog standard BBC reporting, which you've decided to cast in a sinister light, aided by not having a clue about what is going on. The article isn't what is ridiculous. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
Re: [Marxism] Libya: a tale of two headlines 8th March 2011
== Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. == From: MARGARET WYLES > I don't know which is sillier. The text or the video. > > [QUOTE]"Casualties were reported as 50 tanks and 120 pick-up trucks > launched three attacks on the rebel-held town 50km (30 miles) west > of the capital, Tripoli."[/QUOTE] > > The government now uses pick up trucks Yes, Margaret, they do. So do many governments in Africa. They use them for the same reasons everyone else does: they're useful and reliable. Light trucks were ubiquitous during WW2 as well, for the same reason, not least in the campaigns fought in... Libya. Send list submissions to: Marxism@greenhouse.economics.utah.edu Set your options at: http://greenhouse.economics.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
