Re: [Marxism] Racism in Libya

[Tom Cod]

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There's some truth to that.  Fox Butterfield had an article in the New
York Times back in the late 70s about how the feudal priest class
oppressed the peasants and how after 1959 Mao's regime alleviated
that.  For example, hydraulic power of creeks and rivers was used to
turn prayer wheels on behalf of priests in the monasteries on huge
estates that lived off the peasants that worked them, a scenario right
out of medieval Europe.  That's not to say that that Chinese Han
chauvinism was not at work in this situation as well.  To hear those
like Bob Avakian tell it, the Dalai Lama is a thoroughgoing fraud.
That might be a little bit of a stretch, unless he changed his name to
Woodrow Wilson.

On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 4:54 PM, Joseph Ball  wrote:
> ==
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> ==
>
>
> I don't know what all this is about.  In the Cultural Revolution, Tibetan 
> proletarians rebelled against the feudal remnants.  There never was any 
> attack on the Tibetans by anyone in the PRC.  It was always a class struggle.
>
>
>>Of course, Joseph Bell's revered Maoists were not
>> above brutal treatment toward the Tibetans and the Uighurs.
>> It is difficult to determine how many Tibetans were killed
>> but surely it is in the tens of thousands.


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Re: [Marxism] Racism in Libya

[Louis Proyect]

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On 7/18/12 7:54 PM, Joseph Ball wrote:


I don't know what all this is about.  In the Cultural Revolution,
Tibetan proletarians rebelled against the feudal remnants.  There
never was any attack on the Tibetans by anyone in the PRC.  It was
always a class struggle.



Tibet for the Tibetans:

http://www.counterpunch.org/2008/04/10/tibet-for-the-tibetans/


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Re: [Marxism] Racism in Libya

[Joseph Ball]

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I don't know what all this is about.  In the Cultural Revolution, Tibetan 
proletarians rebelled against the feudal remnants.  There never was any attack 
on the Tibetans by anyone in the PRC.  It was always a class struggle.


> 
> George Washington tried to exterminate all the American
> Indians who were allied with the British. Oliver Cromwell, a
> figure revered by Marxist historian Christopher Hill, did
> far worse to the Irish than what was done to Blacks in
> Libya. In the USA the victory of the North was a
> prerequisite to the industrialization of the nation, an key
> part of which was extermination of the American Indians.
> Robespierre was for emancipation in Haiti, but Napoleon
> sought to reintroduce slavery. Both were products of the
> French Revolution.
> 
> Under socialist leaderships, we don't expect such things to
> happen. Of course, Joseph Bell's revered Maoists were not
> above brutal treatment toward the Tibetans and the Uighurs.
> It is difficult to determine how many Tibetans were killed
> but surely it is in the tens of thousands. Of course, one
> might argue that this was necessary because they stood in
> the way of building socialism in China or some other such
> bullshit. I have no idea how many Uighurs have been killed
> by the Chinese, but I imagine that it could be greater than
> the number of Blacks killed in Libya in the course of a
> bloody civil war.
> 
> 
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> 


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Re: [Marxism] Racism in Libya

[Louis Proyect]

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On 7/18/12 6:00 PM, Joseph Ball wrote:


Is Clay seriously arguing  that the line of this article: A Tale of
Two Cities should be taken seriously? This is blaming a whole town
for the alleged behaviour of  Gaddafi soldiers. This article is
defending ethnic cleansing, it's not doing anything else.


I think people have some idealized understanding of the bourgeois 
revolution, which this overthrow of the Qaddafi dictatorship has a lot 
in common with.


George Washington tried to exterminate all the American Indians who were 
allied with the British. Oliver Cromwell, a figure revered by Marxist 
historian Christopher Hill, did far worse to the Irish than what was 
done to Blacks in Libya. In the USA the victory of the North was a 
prerequisite to the industrialization of the nation, an key part of 
which was extermination of the American Indians. Robespierre was for 
emancipation in Haiti, but Napoleon sought to reintroduce slavery. Both 
were products of the French Revolution.


Under socialist leaderships, we don't expect such things to happen. Of 
course, Joseph Bell's revered Maoists were not above brutal treatment 
toward the Tibetans and the Uighurs. It is difficult to determine how 
many Tibetans were killed but surely it is in the tens of thousands. Of 
course, one might argue that this was necessary because they stood in 
the way of building socialism in China or some other such bullshit. I 
have no idea how many Uighurs have been killed by the Chinese, but I 
imagine that it could be greater than the number of Blacks killed in 
Libya in the course of a bloody civil war.



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Re: [Marxism] Racism in Libya

[Joseph Ball]

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Is Clay seriously arguing  that the line of this article: A Tale of Two Cities 
should be taken seriously? This is blaming a whole town for the alleged 
behaviour of  Gaddafi soldiers. This article is defending ethnic cleansing, 
it's not doing anything else.  This is like the Nazis using the alleged 
criminal activities of a few Jewish individuals to justify the moving of a 
whole Jewish community into a ghetto.  I can't believe that anyone here could 
support this obvious attempt to excuse racism.

This is a quote from the article that Clay copied and pasted:
> >as soon as that happened Tawergha residents fled their
> town because they
> > knew that they were bound to face the wrath of the
> Misurata residents
> > for their part in what Misurata had to endure.
.
> > Tawergha has lived to regret two decisions it made,
> namely, its
> > willing participation in Gaddafi's attack on its
> neighbour, and
> > secondly the voluntary evacuation of their homes to
> avoid the wrath
> > from Misurata once Gaddafi's army was defeated.


> > They failed to shoulder the responsibility for the
> crimes that were
> > committed. They alleged they were being chased away
> from their homes
> > on racial grounds. That is an absurd accusation to
> make.


And look at this piece below about the black Africans put in a cage in the zoo. 
I can't believe that anyone on this list could think that it would be  OK to 
treat Africans like animals like this, whatever the excuse. I can't believe 
that Clay could truly think the zoo video wasn't a completely obvious example 
of racism.  Does Clay  think the Rodney King beating was just about traffic 
violations?  Or that people were only denied the vote in the South because they 
didn't fulfill certain objective criteria and it had nothing to do with being 
African?


Clay's comment was:

>This has to do with a grotesque YouTube video that
> has been
> widely circulated by the above mention groups to prove that
> the Libyan
> revolution is racist to the core. 
> 
> that had subtitles. This is my response:
> 
>     *They aren't being tortured because they are
> black.* Here is the
>     same video but with sub-titles so we can tell
> what they are saying,
>     which is stuff like:
> 
>         "Dog Eat the flag! Dog Eat the
> Flag! You dog come here! Eat this
>         flag! eat it, yea, Tawergian!
> Yea dirty Dog!
> 
>     Note that while being called a dog is
> derisive, it is not racists.

> it
> would have been much more
>     accurate, because they are being abused, no
> doubt by people from
>     Misrata, not because of the color of their
> skin, but because of
>     where they were from.

Of course it isn't just about a town.  As Andrew Malone says in his Daily Mail 
report;
'Signs bearing the town’s name [Tawerga] have been painted over. What remains 
of the shattered homes, shops and restaurants have been daubed with vile 
graffiti: ‘Black dogs! No blacks.’ '

Read more: 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2170025/Back-bloody-anarchy-Andrew-Malone-revisits-Libya-finds-country-riven-torture-mass-murder-savage-vengeance.html#ixzz210t3sVMT




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Re: [Marxism] Racism in Libya

[Craig Brozefsky]

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Clay Claiborne  writes:

> on the Libyan Revolution. I find it so interesting that the
> anti-interventionists turned counter-revolutionary are now willing to
> quote uncritically even the right-wing bourgeois press if they are
> also opposing the Libyan revolution.

Comrade, thank you for sharing, but, please, chill the fuck out.  The
original poster was expressing concern over something he had read, and
did not have the critical perspective that you have from following the
details on the ground -- and one I am very thankful you are sharing.  So
why treat this concern which was motivated from a humanity and fear, and
not some rigid idealogical fixation, as an expression of a monolithic
juggernaut of political deviation?

This approach reads as if you are tilting at windmills you stand up from
the concerns of others -- much as those who opposed intervention did
with the concerns of supporters of the revolution who saw an
existential threat to it.  It all stinks of crass jockeying for
narrative/political authority to me.

Maybe you see this as a forum for you to express your frustrations, but
it really detracts from your points and obscures the insights that I
have gotten from your commentary.

-- 
Craig Brozefsky 
Premature reification is the root of all evil


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Re: [Marxism] Racism in Libya

[Clay Claiborne]

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>
>
>
>
>
> Joseph Ball said:
> Left supporters of the Libyan rebels should read this story from the UK 
> right-wing Daily Mail:
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2170025/Back-bloody-anarchy-Andrew-Malone-revisits-Libya-finds-country-riven-torture-mass-murder-savage-vengeance.html
>
> It provides evidence for the murders of 1000 alleged pro-Gaddafi fighters who 
> had been taken prisoner by Libyan rebels.  
I read the article, I didn't see any evidence other than his word that
this murder of a thousand [ round numbers are always suspicious in cases
like this - was it exactly 1000?] and if you accept that, then you have
to accept everything else he said, including:
> To add to the terror, he sent thousands of troops into battle, many of
> them African mercenaries who had been allowed into Libya in return for
> their undying loyalty to the despot. Gaddafi told them: 'Misrata is
> yours.' There was carnage. While local men were fighting back against
> Gaddafi's troops, their homes were looted and their wives and children
> kidnapped. Rape was widespread, death everywhere.

If this massacre actually happened, why hasn't HRW or Amnesty written
about it? How come a search for "Funduq Al-Jannah" at HRW.org and
amnesty.org turn up absolutely nothing? I find that very suspicious. Why
does this one reporter's version seem to be the only one out there? The
right wing Daily Mail wrote this the day before Libyan's went to the
polls and yet there is nothing topical about it. Why? It is a hit piece
on the Libyan Revolution. I find it so interesting that the
anti-interventionists turned counter-revolutionary are now willing to
quote uncritically even the right-wing bourgeois press if they are also
opposing the Libyan revolution.

In Solidarity,

Clay Claiborne

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Re: [Marxism] Racism in Libya

[Clay Claiborne]

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Joseph Ball said:

> As well as all this there is the well-known ethnic cleansing of the black 
> people of Tawerga.  There is also this video of black people being kept in 
> the zoo like animals by the rebels and deliberately humiliated:
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2109327/Torture-video-shows-black-Africans-locked-zoo-cage-force-fed-flags-Libyan-rebels.html
>
Here is a very informative piece from the Tripoli Post Opinion: A Tale
of Two Cities: Misurata and Tawergha
 - By Gada Mahfud
> So how did the good neighbours become fierce enemies, and what has led
> to this drastic change of sentiment?
>
> When Misurata declared its support for the Libyan uprising that
> erupted in Benghazi on February 17, last year, Misurata instantly
> became the front line of the revolution. Gaddafi recognised that his
> survival depended on him reclaiming Misurata from the grasp of the
> revolution. So he instructed his militias to destroy Misurata.
>
> Gaddafi wanted to insure that the siege around Misurata was airtight,
> and that it was not going to receive any lifelines from its
> neighbours. Therefore, he set to work on recruiting neighbouring
> cities and enlisting their support.
>
> The attack Gaddafi's war machine launched on Misurata was truly
> horrendous. Indiscriminate shelling on civilians caused the death toll
> to rise exponentially. Such destruction was only possible due to the
> cooperation of nearby towns like Tawergha.
>
> Observers thought the shelling was bad, but what was to occur next was
> infinitely even worse because when Gaddafi's militias entered Misurata
> from the west. Tawergha groups described as volunteers because they
> never had formal military training, entered Misurata from the east.
> Gaddafi had succeeded in enlisting the assistance of the majority of
> the Tawergha residents.
>
> From first hand witness accounts I myself managed to get, Tawergha was
> involved in full capacity in the attack against Misurata and its
> citizens. Women accompanied the men, snatched the jewellery off
> Misurata women and searched homes for valuables. Old men and women
> cheered on as their sons were on their way to conquering Misurata.
>
> Tawerghan men robbed homes, killed and stole livestock, vandalised
> properties and sometimes even set them on fire. But worst of all
> Tawerghans were involved in rapes that were filmed on mobile phones
> found on dead Tawerghan men.
>
> In a conservative society like Libya rape is just as bad if not worse
> than murder and though vandalism and robbery are not easily forgotten
> or forgiven it is the rapes with the documented proof of the
> perpetrators that have made the tale of these two cities what it is.
>
> In the end Misurata succeeded in defeating the Gaddafi war machine. As
> soon as that happened Tawergha residents fled their town because they
> knew that they were bound to face the wrath of the Misurata residents
> for their part in what Misurata had to endure.
>
> Tawergha has lived to regret two decisions it made, namely, its
> willing participation in Gaddafi's attack on its neighbour, and
> secondly the voluntary evacuation of their homes to avoid the wrath
> from Misurata once Gaddafi's army was defeated.
>
> Tawergha residents were not chased out of town but they were never
> permitted to return. It has become a ghost town since the flight of
> its residents, who have taken refuge in temporary shelters in Tripoli
> and Benghazi.
>
> Tawergha residents have made many attempts through the NTC and tribal
> elders from different parts of the country to represent them and to
> plead their case for their return. All attempts have proven futile.
>
> Misurata residents were adamant in refusing the Tawerghans permission
> for their return, on the grounds that the trust that once existed
> between them has been shattered, and without that trust they cannot go
> back to being neighbours.
>
> Tawergha residents contacted the media and different human rights
> organisations in an attempt to raise awareness of their plight. They
> gave a flawed account of the events that led to the evacuation of
> their homes and refused to admit their guilt to what transpired during
> Gaddafi's medieval siege on Misurata.
>
> They failed to shoulder the responsibility for the crimes that were
> committed. They alleged they were being chased away from their homes
> on racial grounds. That is an absurd accusation to make. Tawergha
> residents have never made such allegations in the past, therefore why
> should Misurata suddenly adopt a racist view of Tawergha now? 

Of course, if your only interest in Tawergha is as a way to charge the
Libyan revolution with racism, then you shouldn't read it.

I have writt

Re: [Marxism] Racism in Libya

[Daniel Rocha]

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Concerning which side to take, why not taking no sides at all and denounce
the whole conflict as an imperialist struggle? In the case of Syria, to be
against the support of both sides and condemn the conflict. Similar to the
position assumed during the warring countries of the world war 1. It seems
to me that both Gaddaffi, Assad and his opponents are minions of empires.

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[Marxism] Racism in Libya

[Ken Hiebert]

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Joseph Ball said:
Left supporters of the Libyan rebels should read this story from the UK 
right-wing Daily Mail:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2170025/Back-bloody-anarchy-Andrew-Malone-revisits-Libya-finds-country-riven-torture-mass-murder-savage-vengeance.html

It provides evidence for the murders of 1000 alleged pro-Gaddafi fighters who 
had been taken prisoner by Libyan rebels.  The reporter talked to witnesses in 
Misrata and found the mass grave himself.

The prisoners were forced to drink diesel then had their throats cut.  
According to the reporter many of the victims were black and '...since Gaddafi 
fell the rebels have been targeting its black population in indiscriminate 
revenge attacks for the despot's deployment of thousands of African 
mercanries...'.  Here the Daily Mail reveals its right-wing bias.  Look at this 
Guardian article for links to evidence that the rubbish about African 
mercanries was the product of racism: 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/30/libya-spectacular-revolution-disgraced-racism

As well as all this there is the well-known ethnic cleansing of the black 
people of Tawerga.  There is also this video of black people being kept in the 
zoo like animals by the rebels and deliberately humiliated:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2109327/Torture-video-shows-black-Africans-locked-zoo-cage-force-fed-flags-Libyan-rebels.html

There is a lot more evidence of racism where this comes from.  I am astonished 
that in the face of this evidence Marxists still express support for the 
rebels.  I want help with this: why are you doing this?  You wouldn't express 
support for the Klu Klux Klan on the basis that they are fighting for the right 
of poor whites or whatever.  Why do you support all this horrible racism in 
Libya?

It's no good claiming that this massive racist pogrom is only one aspect of 
what's going on in Libya.  Surely it is the defining feature of the Libyan 
revolution.  Pro-confederates give all sorts of apologies for the Southern 
states: it was really about states rights, the South was being discriminated 
against by the North etc.  Surely our response is so what?  Whatever the other 
rights and wrongs the defining feature of the Civil War was slavery so the Left 
cannot accept the Confederate arguments.  No-one on the Left should support the 
disgusting racists that overthrew Gaddaffi.  Not one of the rebel factions has 
done anything about the racist pogrom, not one of them has denounced it or 
lifted a finger to prevent.  For God's sake why are the Left supporting these 
people?

Joseph

* * * *

Ken Hiebert replies:
I am relying on Joseph Ball's account of what is in the articles.  If this is 
true, then we should be launching a public campaign.  I am surprised that no 
left group has taken the initiative.  Is it realistic for people on this list 
to act on this?  
If necessary we can do two statements, one for those who were opposed to the 
uprising and another for those of us who were in support of it.  I recall a 
campaign in support of Iranian political prisoners that was framed as a 
statement of those who had supported the overthrow of the shah.

ken h


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[Marxism] Racism in Libya

[Suresh]

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Einde and Lou Proyect:

...which isn't exactly new news. 

Suresh: This article is what, less than two weeks old, and it's old news? Give 
me a break. 


I'm not impressed by quotations from Lenin about the Irish from almost a 
hundred 
years ago. Let me repeat that: that quote is nearly a century old. I'm 
confident 
that Lenin would laugh at the notion that what he said at that time and place 
is 
gospel in the early 21st century. What was excusable for the proletariat then 
is 
not excusable now. Sorry.

There was some historical explanation for backward prejudices amongst workers 
and peasants at the turn of the 20th century, perhaps. In 2011? There's none. 
I'm sorry, but I won't subordinate the rights of blacks in North Africa to the 
Arab (chauvinist) revolution. The fact is there is deep-seated racism against 
blacks and South Asians in the Arab world. And the rebellion in Libya, far from 
challenging this, is actually strengthening Arab supremacy. Which isn't 
surprising considering there's no progressive, let alone revolutionary, content 
in their uprising whatsoever. And nobody has provided any significant evidence 
to support the contrary.

And dealing with what Louis said in particular...

Louis Proyect: Let's leave it at this. The Qaddafi dynasty looks like it is on 
its last  legs. NATO bombing, rebel resilience and its own internal rot 
conspires  to bring this to a conclusion. 


Suresh: Here's the problem. If the government in Tripoli falls now, when it is 
suffering from NATO bombing, it will embolden the U.S. and it's British and 
French allies to launch new aggressions against Africa and the Middle East in 
the near future. Of course, the transitional regime in Benghazi couldn't care 
less if workers in Somalia or Iraq are sanctioned, bombed, and occupied 
tomorrow 
because they encouraged the efflorescence of American imperialism. All they 
care 
about is taking power and enriching themselves. They've made that abundantly 
clear by constantly prostrating themselves before Washington, London, and 
Paris. 
Guess what? Hardly anybody except Proyect's nemesis Yoshi Furuhashi thinks 
Qaddafi is progressive. We just don't fool ourselves into thinking there's some 
sort of social revolution going on here. There isn't. And six months, a year, 
and five years from now, the evidence will only accumulate to support that 
fact. 
We have one newly neo-liberal regime being replaced by another neo-liberal 
regime. Except the latter is coming in the wake of American, British, and 
French 
bombs. 


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Re: [Marxism] Racism in Libya,

[Einde O'Callaghan]

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On 16.05.2011 01:16, Suresh wrote:




For some reason Einde, instead of dealing with the facts in the article, decided
to post a quote by Lenin. Personally, I'd rather deal with the concrete issues
of nation, class, and anti-imperialism in Libya than seek recourse to the same
old revolutionary catechisms.

I was responding to Vladimiro Giacche's one-liner, not to your post - 
which isn't exactly new news.


Lenin's insight in to the nature of nationalist upheavals is relevant in 
this context. And equally relevant is his remark in the next paragraph: 
"Whoever expects a “pure” social revolution will *never* live to see it. 
Such a person pays lip-service to revolution without understanding what 
revolution is."


Einde O'Callaghan


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Re: [Marxism] Racism in Libya,

[Louis Proyect]

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On 5/15/11 7:16 PM, Suresh wrote:


For some reason Einde, instead of dealing with the facts in the article, decided
to post a quote by Lenin. Personally, I'd rather deal with the concrete issues
of nation, class, and anti-imperialism in Libya than seek recourse to the same
old revolutionary catechisms.



Well, what you posted was old news. Within a week after the Benghazi 
revolt, there were copious reports in the bourgeois press and 
uber-copious reports on the MRZine, Chossudovsky, Marcyite wing of the 
left about all this.


It was in line with all the reports about the CIA connections, the 
monarchist flags, et al.


If posting all this stuff was supposed to motivate opposing imperialist 
intervention, that was the equivalent of breaking down an open door--at 
least as far as this mailing list is concerned. Nobody supported western 
intervention even though I and others were slandered to this effect.


Let's leave it at this. The Qaddafi dynasty looks like it is on its last 
legs. NATO bombing, rebel resilience and its own internal rot conspires 
to bring this to a conclusion.


I should add those that who equated Qaddafi's militias to the Cuban 
efforts at the Bay of Pigs should probably have their heads examined.


The New York Times
May 14, 2011 Saturday
Late Edition - Final

Captive Soldiers Tell of Discord In Libyan Army

By C. J. CHIVERS

MISURATA, Libya -- The army and militias of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, who 
for more than two months have fought rebels seeking to overthrow the 
Libyan leader, are undermined by self-serving officers, strained 
logistics and units hastily reinforced with untrained cadets, according 
to captured soldiers from their ranks.


In interviews this week in a rebel-run detention center where more than 
100 prisoners from the Libyan military are housed, the prisoners 
consistently described hardships in the field and officers who deceived 
or failed them. They spoke bitterly of their lot.


While some showed signs of mistreatment or of making statements to 
ingratiate themselves with their captors, the accounts of their 
logistical and tactical problems portrayed a Libyan force suffering from 
growing problems in a war that began as a mismatch, settled into 
stalemate and has recently shown signs of rebel advance.


On one hand, Libyan military units and militias went to war with clear 
material and organizational advantages, equipped with tanks, armored 
personnel carriers, artillery, rockets and vast stores of munitions. 
They arrived to battle with trained snipers and mortar, rocket and 
artillery crews.


On the other, the Libyan Defense Ministry thickened the ranks with 
veterans recalled to duty in poor physical condition and cadets with 
almost no combat training or experience.


Then, after facing weeks of airstrikes and a growing rebel force, some 
of these units were cut off, prisoners said, and officers betrayed the 
rank and file.


''The commanders told us, 'Stay here and we will be back with more 
ammunition,' '' said a cadet who claimed to have been pressed into 
service as an untrained infantryman last month, and was assigned to the 
fight for this city's center. ''But they did not come back, and the 
rebels surrounded us and we had to put down our weapons and quit.''


The prisoners' identities, which were provided by the interviewees, have 
been withheld to protect them and their families from retaliation.


The cadet, who had a shaved head and slender hands protruding from a 
long black robe, described many forms of disappointment in the Qaddafi 
military. At the start of the war, he said, he was a second-year cadet, 
and was told by his instructors that he must go serve.


His and his classmates' first mission, he said, was to search vehicles 
and check identification cards at one of the country's myriad 
checkpoints. There were 11 cadets at the gate of the town where he was 
assigned, he said.


''After a while they came and said 11 at the gate is too much,'' he 
said. ''And they took six of us and gave us Kalashnikovs and took us 
into Misurata.''


That was in April, when Misurata was the center of Libya's most pitched 
fight, a block-by-block contest that cost the lives of hundreds of men 
on both sides.


Inside the city, he said, he found he was in an unknown neighborhood, 
hidden with others in an apartment building as rebel fighters pressed 
near and the Libyan Army's lines of logistics were slowly but 
persistently severed behind them.


Other prisoners described constant deception by their officers.

One prisoner, a member of the 32 Reinforced Brigade of Armed People, a 
unit often called elite and which is led by Khamis Qaddafi, one of 
Colonel Qaddafi's sons, said he was the third contingent of the brigade 
to be sent from Tri

Re: [Marxism] Racism in Libya

[Gary MacLennan]

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Of course I am with Einde on this one.  Frankly Comrade Suresh et al are
locked into finding everything bad they can about the rebels in Libya.  This
is to justify their support for Qadhdhafi.  I am reminded somewhat here of
Oscar Wilde's famous description of fox-hunting as "the unspeakable in
pursuit of the uneatable".

Meanwhile the pro-revolt section of the list frankly have moved on.  We
condemn Western military intervention and acknowledge the right wing nature
of the politics of those who appear to have come to the fore in the Benghazi
camp. Again I recommend the approach here of comrades Proyect on this list,
Richard Seymour at Lenin's tomb and As'ad Abu Khalil at the Angry Arab
website.

None of the terrible stuff that has emerged about the Benghazi leadership
gainsays the truth that the infamous Qadhdhafi family by fighting tooth and
nail for their privileges have enshrined the efficacy of the slaughter of
unarmed protesters. Qadhdhafi's example has been followed eagerly by Bashar
Assad in Syria and Saleh in the Yemen.  Comrade Suresh would condemn Saleh I
am sure but would reserve criticism of Assad, I suspect.  Certainly MRzine
does.

Now Israel has come to the feast once more and murdered unarmed
demonstrators.  World condemnation would always have been muted but it is
allowed to be even more so by the action of the Arab butchers in Syria,
Libya, the Yemen, Oman and Bahrain.

Meanwhile today's Guardian reports that Assad's cousin has begged the West
to go easy on Assad regime in recognition of Syria's contribution to
stability i.e. the Imperialist cause. MRzine will remain silent on this
piece of evidence, just as they have maintained a discreet silence on the
CIA's endorsement of the Qadhdhafi and Assad as people they could do
business with.

Meanwhile the Arab people who can think outside crude categories such as
"Our tyrant versus their tryrant" can see that the Syria army which refuses
to face up to the Israeli Army is quite prepared to shoot down unarmed
civilians.  That is the kind of filth that Comrade Suresh and MRzine are
supporting because of an undialectical approach to the struggle against
Imperialism.

comradely regards

Gary

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[Marxism] Racism in Libya,

[Suresh]

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I just posted an article dealing with anti-black racial supremacism in Libya. 
Please note I did not demonize the Libyan rebels. In fact, the bigotry they 
express is found throughout the Arab world. At the same time, it's obvious that 
Qadaffi's use of mercenaries, and his perceived aid to black Africans both 
internally and diplomatically, makes blacks anathema to many on the rebel side 
in Libya. It wouldn't be the first time that a tyrannical regime's relatively 
progressive features became a source of opposition every bit as much as it's 
more numerous regressive aspects. We saw this in the Iraqi civil war as well, 
when Palestinian refugees were assaulted in bloody pogroms in the country. 
There's no point in making excuses about it. 


For some reason Einde, instead of dealing with the facts in the article, 
decided 
to post a quote by Lenin. Personally, I'd rather deal with the concrete issues 
of nation, class, and anti-imperialism in Libya than seek recourse to the same 
old revolutionary catechisms. 


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Re: [Marxism] Racism in Libya

[Einde O'Callaghan]

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On 15.05.2011 20:56, Vladimiro Giacche' wrote:




A very interesting insight into the behaviour of our beloved fighters for 
freedom...
v

Il giorno 15/mag/2011, alle ore 20.26, Suresh ha scritto:



Libya's black refugees
Caught in the middle
The plight of black Africans trying to flee from Libya is dire—and worsening


All the unconditional condemnations of the uprising against Gaddafi from 
Western leftists make me think of Leinin's rebuke to the ultra-leftists 
who condemned the Easter Rising in Dublin in 1916, another upheaval that 
sought and accepted aid from an imperialist power:


"To imagine that social revolution is conceivable without revolts by 
small nations in the colonies and in Europe, without revolutionary 
outbursts *by a section of the petty bourgeoisie with all its 
prejudices*, without a movement of the politically non-conscious 
proletarian and semi-proletarian masses against oppression by the 
landowners, the church, and the monarchy, against national oppression, 
etc. - to imagine all this is to *repudiate social revolution*."


This isn't to say that what's now happening is supportable - put rather 
crudely: the revolutionary upheaval has been derailed because of the 
lack of an independent working class leadership.


Einde O'Callaghan


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Re: [Marxism] Racism in Libya

[Vladimiro Giacche']

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A very interesting insight into the behaviour of our beloved fighters for 
freedom...
v

Il giorno 15/mag/2011, alle ore 20.26, Suresh ha scritto:

> 
> Libya's black refugees
> Caught in the middle
> The plight of black Africans trying to flee from Libya is dire—and worsening 
> May 5th 2011  | SALLOUM  | from the print edition 
> 
> 
> These migrants, almost all of them black Africans who found refuge  from such 
> places as Chad, Eritrea and Sudan’s ravaged Darfur region in  Colonel Muammar 
> Qaddafi’s Libya, say they are targets of rebels in the  east, where they have 
> all too often been mistaken for mercenaries in the  pay of the colonel. 
> 
> Their journey to Libya’s border is perilous. Many say they have  witnessed 
> massacres of other black Africans. Even the wounded are not  welcome. Ahmed 
> Muhammad Zakaria, a 20-year-old Chadian living in  Benghazi, was shot in the 
> leg 
> by rebels, but says people in the local  hospital, rather than treat him, 
> told 
> him to go to Egypt. A ten-year-old  boy infected with HIV from a blood 
> transfusion in Libya was told that  he and his family were no longer welcome 
> in 
> the rebel-held east. “Burn  them all,” said one Benghazi native of the blacks 
> fleeing Libya...
> Link: 
> 
> 



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[Marxism] Racism in Libya

[Suresh]

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Libya's black refugees
Caught in the middle
The plight of black Africans trying to flee from Libya is dire—and worsening 
May 5th 2011  | SALLOUM  | from the print edition 

COLD by night and blisteringly hot under the midday sun, the  border crossing 
between Libya and Egypt at Salloum has become a bleak  stopping point for 
Western journalists seeking a way to eastern Libya’s  rebel stronghold of 
Benghazi, six hours’ drive to the west. But for  refugees going the other way, 
Salloum is another even gloomier barrier  on a long and often deadly flight 
from 
war.
These migrants, almost all of them black Africans who found refuge  from such 
places as Chad, Eritrea and Sudan’s ravaged Darfur region in  Colonel Muammar 
Qaddafi’s Libya, say they are targets of rebels in the  east, where they have 
all too often been mistaken for mercenaries in the  pay of the colonel. 

Their journey to Libya’s border is perilous. Many say they have  witnessed 
massacres of other black Africans. Even the wounded are not  welcome. Ahmed 
Muhammad Zakaria, a 20-year-old Chadian living in  Benghazi, was shot in the 
leg 
by rebels, but says people in the local  hospital, rather than treat him, told 
him to go to Egypt. A ten-year-old  boy infected with HIV from a blood 
transfusion in Libya was told that  he and his family were no longer welcome in 
the rebel-held east. “Burn  them all,” said one Benghazi native of the blacks 
fleeing Libya...
Link: 


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